How can it be when they have not been anywhere near the levers of power to enact it?
Liam Fox has a lot to answer for. Bozza didn't do a great job as Foreign Sec and Davis was completely shit. Fox and Davis should never have got the jobs they did, though.
Because as you can see, if you don't build that consensus, you end up with a million politically-engaged people marching through London and dedicating themselves to building a mass movement to overturn your grisly project.
As opposed to the 17.4 million people who took the first opportunity available to overturn your grisly little EU project?
It wasn't the first opportunity available. That's just a self-pitying myth peddled by people who don't respect our parliamentary democracy.
Leavers have done everything they can to alienate Remain voters.
That's not quite true. I don't shit on the carpet at work when someone makes a comment which idly assumes we're all remainers. Nor do I punch them or threaten them. In fact I don't even dare tell them I voted leave.
Try harder then. You can’t be sure that routinely labelling them quislings and traitors will alienate them enough. Shitting on the carpet might be the necessary final step.
Unlike you I don't feel the need to stoop to spreading shit and alienating friends.
Talk to me about your bridge-building with your Remainer chums. Have you ruffled their hair as you call them saboteurs? Do you give them fancy biscuits as you label them enemies of the people?
And yet still they don’t come round. How inflexible of them.
See the last sentence of my first post above and ask yourself who is being more measured and reasonable here, the leave voter or the remain voter.
And you are comprehensively missing my point. Leavers have done nothing to create the consensus for their policy that is needed for it to endure. Quite the reverse: they have sought to draw a circle of trust that excludes their erstwhile opponents, and many have spent the last couple of years roundly abusing them. No prominent Leaver (and almost no obscure Leavers) has condemned this routemarch to the extremes.
You can bleat about one Remain supporter all you like. (As it happens I didn’t march yesterday and I haven’t signed the petition, in both cases as a matter of principle.) But Leavers have lost the opportunity to forge a consensus and that is very much their problem, not Remainers’.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Because as you can see, if you don't build that consensus, you end up with a million politically-engaged people marching through London and dedicating themselves to building a mass movement to overturn your grisly project.
As opposed to the 17.4 million people who took the first opportunity available to overturn your grisly little EU project?
It wasn't the first opportunity available. That's just a self-pitying myth peddled by people who don't respect our parliamentary democracy.
Really? When 4 million votes gets you one seat in Parliament?
It was the first time the people had actually had a chance to vote purely on the issue of EU membership since 1975 and they quite rightly told you to stick it up your arse.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Because as you can see, if you don't build that consensus, you end up with a million politically-engaged people marching through London and dedicating themselves to building a mass movement to overturn your grisly project.
As opposed to the 17.4 million people who took the first opportunity available to overturn your grisly little EU project?
It wasn't the first opportunity available. That's just a self-pitying myth peddled by people who don't respect our parliamentary democracy.
Really? When 4 million votes gets you one seat in Parliament?
It was the first time the people had actually had a chance to vote purely on the issue of EU membership since 1975 and they quite rightly told you to stick it up your arse.
In fact they voted to tear up the most Eurosceptic deal you're ever likely to get.
Even if the petition had been signed nationally at the rate signed by the least enthusiastic constituency, the petition would have been signed by well over a million people. That’s pretty extraordinary.
The distribution of the signatures doesn't show any signs of systemic manipulation. The constituencies at the top are the ones with the most technically and politically engaged.
I haven’t seen anything to make me doubt the general picture. I have seen an awful lot of Leavers raging at the picture presented. They would do better to ask themselves why they have so comprehensively failed to forge a consensus for their policy. That, however, is a fence that they refuse to attempt to jump.
True. But at that point there was a settled policy. Now a new policy must be formed. And the winners have proven quite clueless about what they want and determined to exclude the losers from any discussions to sort the mess out. Then they wonder why vast numbers seek to revoke the decision and march for a fresh referendum.
I don’t wonder why, I accept those marchers and signees want Brexit stopped. But I don’t see what it matters. If every Labour voter decided to march to say how much they wish Labour had won the last election, what would that tell us?
It would tell us that there was a rage among Labour voters that was completely unprecedented. Why have Leavers failed to get Remainers to the point of sullen acquiescence?
Because a mostly remainer parliament hasn't run a very brilliant process; because remain is intrinsically a fairly single view (ie continuity) while leaving is intrinsically by its nature open to alternatives. Government and Parliament opted to be handed the job of handling a 'Leave' vote if it arose and has lacked the sort of outstanding leadership needed for this tough task.
Remarkable how it is never ever, even slightly, the fault of the people who actually advocated the sodding idea in the first place.
How can it be when they have not been anywhere near the levers of power to enact it?
Nowhere near? While I might grant you that TMay was a crypto-remainer of sorts, and a control freak, I don’t think holding the offices of DexEU, the Foreign Office, Leader of the House etc etc constitutes “nowhere near” the levers of power.
Benpointer said: show previous quotes Yes, well, I think it highly likely now that we will be participating in the EU elections.
Could be interesting if the #PeoplesVote organisation flex their muscles in any UK EU elections; no party won 5 million votes in the last election.
What are the odds of the UK participating in Euro elections ? Is there a Market up for that?
Even if they are held I'm not sure there is a People's Vote party that is eligible to stand. The Brexit Party would stand and would be likely to be very successful. The split of the pro-remain vote will cost them dearly in the De Hondt system.
Indeed. My thinking was not that they would stand but rather promote any parties who propose a 2nd referendum. Labour would come under intense pressure to include such a commitment in their manifesto.
Re "the split of the pro-remain vote will cost them dearly in the De Hondt system" won't that affect the pro-leave (anti-2ndref) vote too?
If we've had a long extension and are therefore having EU elections, it should be on the grounds that either we've committed to a new referendum, or we're negotiating an entire new Deal, or a new General Election has happened or is about to happen, all of which will overwhelm the Euro elections.
All this assumes the EU won't grant a long extension on the basis of "we're still inconsequentially arguing with ourselves". I know their stated position is that they wouldn't, but the consequences of No Deal are very bad, especially for Ireland, and the downsides of letting the British stay and faff for another year or two are mainly minor irritations, as long as the Euro elections are sorted.
Because as you can see, if you don't build that consensus, you end up with a million politically-engaged people marching through London and dedicating themselves to building a mass movement to overturn your grisly project.
As opposed to the 17.4 million people who took the first opportunity available to overturn your grisly little EU project?
It wasn't the first opportunity available. That's just a self-pitying myth peddled by people who don't respect our parliamentary democracy.
Really? When 4 million votes gets you one seat in Parliament?
It was the first time the people had actually had a chance to vote purely on the issue of EU membership since 1975 and they quite rightly told you to stick it up your arse.
13% of the vote for 0.15% of the seats... if that hadn’t been so conveniently ignored by the establishment they might have been better prepared for Brexit
OT The anti-Tree netting petition has got 128K votes so will at least get a mention in Parliament. I doubt it will make any difference at all but it has at least raised awareness of the issue.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Now we are getting childish. Mine is bigger than yours
No, I actually felt a little sad for Farage's marchers. Abandoned by their metropolitan elite leaders as soon as the cameras have gone, to plod on to a destination (Brexit day) that moves into the distance like a Sahara mirage.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Now we are getting childish. Mine is bigger than yours
No, I actually felt a little sad for Farage's marchers. Abandoned by their metropolitan elite leaders as soon as the cameras have gone, to plod on to a destination (Brexit day) that moves into the distance like a Sahara mirage.
Nowhere near? While I might grant you that TMay was a crypto-remainer of sorts, and a control freak, I don’t think holding the offices of DexEU, the Foreign Office, Leader of the House etc etc constitutes “nowhere near” the levers of power.
I genuinely believe that she put those Leavers in those positions specifically as a smoke screen while she got on and did what she wanted. There seems to be very few people in Parliament now who believe they were at any time given any authority. That stayed with May and Robbins. You don't even have to believe she was a Remainer as such. Just that she was incompetent with a tin ear which makes her uniquely unsuited for the job of PM even in good times.
It is all in keeping with her modus operandi in every position she has held which is authoritarian in the extreme whilst making sure she has scape goats when things go wrong. It is why I detested her log before she became PM.
Because as you can see, if you don't build that consensus, you end up with a million politically-engaged people marching through London and dedicating themselves to building a mass movement to overturn your grisly project.
As opposed to the 17.4 million people who took the first opportunity available to overturn your grisly little EU project?
It wasn't the first opportunity available. That's just a self-pitying myth peddled by people who don't respect our parliamentary democracy.
Really? When 4 million votes gets you one seat in Parliament?
It was the first time the people had actually had a chance to vote purely on the issue of EU membership since 1975 and they quite rightly told you to stick it up your arse.
In fact they voted to tear up the most Eurosceptic deal you're ever likely to get.
LOL. Your fanaticism is remarkable to see William.
Benpointer said: show previous quotes Yes, well, I think it highly likely now that we will be participating in the EU elections.
Could be interesting if the #PeoplesVote organisation flex their muscles in any UK EU elections; no party won 5 million votes in the last election.
What are the odds of the UK participating in Euro elections ? Is there a Market up for that?
Even if they are held I'm not sure there is a People's Vote party that is eligible to stand. The Brexit Party would stand and would be likely to be very successful. The split of the pro-remain vote will cost them dearly in the De Hondt system.
Indeed. My thinking was not that they would stand but rather promote any parties who propose a 2nd referendum. Labour would come under intense pressure to include such a commitment in their manifesto.
Re "the split of the pro-remain vote will cost them dearly in the De Hondt system" won't that affect the pro-leave (anti-2ndref) vote too?
If we've had a long extension and are therefore having EU elections, it should be on the grounds that either we've committed to a new referendum, or we're negotiating an entire new Deal, or a new General Election has happened or is about to happen, all of which will overwhelm the Euro elections.
All this assumes the EU won't grant a long extension on the basis of "we're still inconsequentially arguing with ourselves". I know their stated position is that they wouldn't, but the consequences of No Deal are very bad, especially for Ireland, and the downsides of letting the British stay and faff for another year or two are mainly minor irritations, as long as the Euro elections are sorted.
The EU cannot agree anything beyond the 12th April without our participation in the EU elections starting on the 12th April. This is the reason for the 12th April date and legal advice to the EU that as a member, if we do not take part in their elections their next Parliament will be void
No deal is very much on the table and it happens on the 12th April if we are not very careful
Leavers have done everything they can to alienate Remain voters.
That's not quite true. I don't shit on the carpet at work when someone makes a comment which idly assumes we're all remainers. Nor do I punch them or threaten them. In fact I don't even dare tell them I voted leave.
Try harder then. You can’t be sure that routinely labelling them quislings and traitors will alienate them enough. Shitting on the carpet might be the necessary final step.
Unlike you I don't feel the need to stoop to spreading shit and alienating friends.
Talk to me about your bridge-building with your Remainer chums. Have you ruffled their hair as you call them saboteurs? Do you give them fancy biscuits as you label them enemies of the people?
And yet still they don’t come round. How inflexible of them.
If some of them had hair to ruffle, perhaps they wouldn’t get quite so hot under the collar.
Is Farage's Long March still going btw? Genuine question, I have been away for the past fortnight.
Yeah, they are in Cropston tonight, setting off round the Leicester ring road through heavily Hindu Thurmaston, then off on ramble past Scraptoft to Oakham on country lanes. The White House at Scraptoft for lunch I expect, it is a 'spoons.
Are they aiming to get into London for Brexit-day this Friday? I assume the numbers will swell as they get closer to The Smoke.
39 today, despite it being glorious spring weather for a Sunday walk through delightful Charnwood. To be fair the presence of Andrew Bridgen probably kept folk away.
No wonder their petition is languishing a bit if they are all out on the march.
Knowing how PB likes a little areil crowd estimation, here is a little brain teaser:
Now we are getting childish. Mine is bigger than yours
No, I actually felt a little sad for Farage's marchers. Abandoned by their metropolitan elite leaders as soon as the cameras have gone, to plod on to a destination (Brexit day) that moves into the distance like a Sahara mirage.
I feel nothing but contempt for Farage and his army
Nowhere near? While I might grant you that TMay was a crypto-remainer of sorts, and a control freak, I don’t think holding the offices of DexEU, the Foreign Office, Leader of the House etc etc constitutes “nowhere near” the levers of power.
I genuinely believe that she put those Leavers in those positions specifically as a smoke screen while she got on and did what she wanted. There seems to be very few people in Parliament now who believe they were at any time given any authority. That stayed with May and Robbins. You don't even have to believe she was a Remainer as such. Just that she was incompetent with a tin ear which makes her uniquely unsuited for the job of PM even in good times.
It is all in keeping with her modus operandi in every position she has held which is authoritarian in the extreme whilst making sure she has scape goats when things go wrong. It is why I detested her log before she became PM.
There is truth in what you say regarding her abilities but neither of us will know what her true motives are/were. For my part, you’ll appreciate that her hatred of the ECHR (the whole lying about the about the cat thing) and complaints about not being able to bring down immigration while there was FOM, both while she was HS, make me deeply sceptical of her remainer credentials. I think she just decided to back the wrong side in the referendum - if she thought Leave would win then it would have been different. But we’ll never really know.
Nowhere near? While I might grant you that TMay was a crypto-remainer of sorts, and a control freak, I don’t think holding the offices of DexEU, the Foreign Office, Leader of the House etc etc constitutes “nowhere near” the levers of power.
I genuinely believe that she put those Leavers in those positions specifically as a smoke screen while she got on and did what she wanted. There seems to be very few people in Parliament now who believe they were at any time given any authority. That stayed with May and Robbins. You don't even have to believe she was a Remainer as such. Just that she was incompetent with a tin ear which makes her uniquely unsuited for the job of PM even in good times.
It is all in keeping with her modus operandi in every position she has held which is authoritarian in the extreme whilst making sure she has scape goats when things go wrong. It is why I detested her log before she became PM.
There is truth in what you say regarding her abilities but neither of us will know what her true motives are/were. For my part, you’ll appreciate that her hatred of the ECHR (the whole lying about the about the cat thing) and complaints about not being able to bring down immigration while there was FOM, both while she was HS, make me deeply sceptical of her remainer credentials. I think she just decided to back the wrong side in the referendum - if she thought Leave would win then it would have been different. But we’ll never really know.
Can't argue with any of that. But then I am biased as my intense dislike of her is very deep rooted and long held.
Has this been shared already on here? Potential betting implications given she is currently favourite for next leader. It's a very awkward subject and I doubt there is much appetite in the lib dems to have domestic violence as a topic of debate in the same way that a debate over religion vs gay rights overtook Farrons tenure
Sounds distressing but not somthing to concern the public.
Nick, if a male MP had hit his partner would you say the same?
Men and women are equal but they are not exactly the same. As I point out below she felt threatened, which is sadly commonplace for women as opposed to men, and she claims (and the police believed her) that she defended herself. If a male MP had done this the reaction would indeed be different, because the lived experiences of men and women are different. In a perfect world that would not be the case but this is not that world.
She said she felt threatened
I tend to believe that most politicians will say whatever gets them out of trouble
In any event it demonstrates a lack of self control
The police disagree with you. If you feel threatened then you can act in many ways. In the circumstances a slap may have been remarkably self controlled. Women have been acquitted of murder in similar circumstances- quite rightly.
They did exonerate her (I think that’s the in phrase tonight)
He was t prepared to give evidence so there was no case to answer
Comments
You can bleat about one Remain supporter all you like. (As it happens I didn’t march yesterday and I haven’t signed the petition, in both cases as a matter of principle.) But Leavers have lost the opportunity to forge a consensus and that is very much their problem, not Remainers’.
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109801972448849925?s=19
It was the first time the people had actually had a chance to vote purely on the issue of EU membership since 1975 and they quite rightly told you to stick it up your arse.
All getting a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr-Ia45UJ6Q
That would be for her successor to sort out.
Boris taking the same line as the Sun.
But it may all be too late now.
It is all in keeping with her modus operandi in every position she has held which is authoritarian in the extreme whilst making sure she has scape goats when things go wrong. It is why I detested her log before she became PM.
No deal is very much on the table and it happens on the 12th April if we are not very careful
Is that the message Boris wants for Brexit?
Someone send for the men in white coats .
NEW THREAD
He was t prepared to give evidence so there was no case to answer