Let them vote for their unicorn paddock in a free vote if they wish to. The motion is not going to pass anyway.
The government has effectively ceased to have a functioning Brexit policy now. Theresa May should either resign or make a virtue of reality and formally hand over policy to Parliament. Or both.
Actually, both sounds like a really good idea.
Not right now. At powerless May in place to facilitate the votes is preferable to the likely chaos if she resigns - unless you're also actively seeking no deal Brexit ?
Let's say that I have severe doubts about her facilitating skills, based on abundant recent evidence.
Which I share. Didn't you just say something about the least bad of terrible options ?
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
Don't be dense.
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
As one of the civil servants said to the Heath Government on the EEC's requirements for British accession - "Here it is, swallow it all and swallow it now, its not going to change."
Mr. T's idea of a two-stage referendum (May's deal yes/no, then if no wins, leave with no deal or remain) might be the least bad credible option.
That's not the least bad credible option, it's an incredibly terrible option, because the weird bit of conditionality ("if no wins...") encourages Remainers to vote tactically for No Deal. Keep it simple and delete the "if no wins" and it's definitely plausible, although I'd be surprised if the government wanted to try Cameron's "ask the voters if they want to try something bad with poorly-defined implications" trick again.
I don’t think you understand the proposal (which wasn’t mine originally, by the way, it was someone else on here - apologies but I have forgotten who)
Hardcore Leavers are understandably going to be mightily pissed off at voting again, so to satisfy them (if that’s possible) the first stage should just be a choice of Brexits. However we can’t ignore the fact that 48% of voters wanted Remain and all polls show Remain is now in the lead, so Remain has to be a choice at some stage.
Ergo
Stage 1. The vote is on May’s deal - Yes or No. If Yes, we take the deal, if No, we move on to
Stage 2. No deal (the only alternative Brexit to May’s deal), versus Remain - a simple choice
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most democratic way out of this mess, I reckon. And FWIW I think May’s deal would have a pretty good chance of passing at Stage 1. So in that case we Brexit, sans chaos
Mr. Tokyo, why would a Remainer vote 'tactically' for No Deal when their choice at that stage would be between that and staying in? Do you mean they'd tactically oppose May's deal?
Having just two options would be much simpler but then the question becomes which option isn't available.
I'm talking about the first round (Yes Deal or No Deal): Because of the "if no wins" clevers, the only way for them to get a vote allowing them to Remain would be to vote for No Deal in the first round. Remain would probably win the second round which would make that moot, but it would be weird and pointlessly dangerous setup.
The solution is just to keep it simple and make the second round happen regardless of the result of the first, so the first round is "What is Brexit?" and the second round is, "Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it?".
Just to confirm that there's nothing new under the sun, in March 1672 King Charles II enacted the 'Declaration of Indulgence', a first step at establishing freedom of religion in England to Protestant nonconformists and Roman Catholics. It suspended the laws that punished those who did not attend the services of the Church of England. The following year the Cavalier Parliament compelled him to withdraw this Declaration.
But I still would like to do National Rail GB network first! Only 12 journeys in Scotland plus a handful of weekend-only routes in England left:
Ayr to Stranraer Helensburgh to Oban Crianlarich to Mallaig Cardenden Loop Croy to Alloa Falkirk to Perth Leuchars to Aberdeen Perth to Dundee Aberdeen to Inverness Perth to Inverness Inverness to Wick/Thurso Dingwall to Kyle
Retford to Barnetby via Brigg line (Sats) Stockport to Guide Bridge (Sats) Clitheroe to Hellifield (Suns) Okehampton to Yeoford (Suns, summer only)
Oh and Meadowhall South to Rotherham Parkgate on Sheffield Supertram
Crossrail still yet to open, but Meridian Water station near Tottenham Hale due to open May (to replace Angel Road nearby)
Today's and tomorrows votes are all about giving the virtue signalling numpties in parly something to virtue signal about "oooh I voted against/for no deal then tweeted about it".
They have forgotten how to lead and govern.
Mr Malthouse at least seems to have worked out a plan - whether you like it or not at least it has some detail.
The rest are just thrashing around suggesting can kicking or referendums with loaded questions which would leave the country ungovernable afterwards.
We need to choose better politicians and hammer them at the ballot box when they fail to deliver. Some good may come of this.
Who & where are those better politicians of whom you speak?
TUD, they will parachute in their crack regional sub office teams, they are brimming with talent. Ruth the Mooth will sort it out along with her little Labour helpers top talent assisting assisting
I know she's a new parent & everything but Ruthie's complete silence is a bit strange, particularly with someone with such a deep affection for the sound of her own voice.
I once worked with someone who went on maternity leave. She only popped back into work once to show us all the baby. Didn’t see her again until her maternity leave was finished.
Funny that.
Fair play to Ruth if she'd prefer to be with her family rather than go back to the clusterfuck, perfectly understandable. Going from expressing 43 opinions a week to panting hacks (often contradictory ones on the same subject) to zero must have taken a bit of willpower though.
I suspect in her position you have a choice of switching off your work phone and taking out the battery for six months, or watch as one quote generates another thousand calls.
He appears to be holding out hope for her deal. Or is he also secretly in favour of no deal, and contributing to the filibuster ?
"...further legal advice..."???? I'm a practicing solicitor. Once I have advised on a matter that tends to be, in the absence of a change in circumstances, it. I don't get a second bite of the cherry. If I'm not sure about something I take some time to consider or instruct a barrister to think it through for me. I think that's true of most. The surest way NOT to win round a client is to say "...oh, there's something I forgot to mention...".
"There is no ECJ jurisdiction over EFTA members. And EFAT members are not in the Customs Union. So the only sticking point on her red lines would be Freedom of Movement."
The most obvious solution to addressing free movement in an EFTA model is to reform our non contributory welfare system so that EU migrants whether in work or not are ineligible for tax credits, housing benefit until they have paid in for a number of years etc etc. Problem is you would have to apply that to Brits - i.e. young people - as well. The concepts of tax credits and housing benefit just don't exist in central and eastern Europe bar one or two exceptions.
That is of course a key cause of Brexit in more ways than one - so many people (Brits and EU migrants) can't make ends meet without taxpayer handouts due to the crazy cost of housing etc.
But reforming our welfare system to move it back to a contributory model would make Brexit seem simple!
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
They missed out the bit about having a frictionless soft border.
On the 'there's nothing new under the sun' front, in March 1672 King Charles II enacted the 'Declaration of Indulgence', a first step at establishing freedom of religion in England to Protestant nonconformists and Roman Catholics. It suspended the laws that punished those who did not attend the services of the Church of England. The following year the Cavalier Parliament compelled him to withdraw this Declaration.
Government vs Parliament again. Eventually, of course that worked out OK for everyone except James II.
He appears to be holding out hope for her deal. Or is he also secretly in favour of no deal, and contributing to the filibuster ?
"...further legal advice..."???? I'm a practicing solicitor. Once I have advised on a matter that tends to be, in the absence of a change in circumstances, it. I don't get a second bite of the cherry. If I'm not sure about something I take some time to consider or instruct a barrister to think it through for me. I think that's true of most. The surest way NOT to win round a client is to say "...oh, there's something I forgot to mention...".
One finds that legal opinions are often negotiated though. You might argue that misses the point of them, but as they are an essentially defensive exercise, the first draft is frequently worthless (and specifically drafted that way). Having said that, it would be unusual for that to happen after the opinion had been issued.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
The tragic thing is that had that course of action been followed nearly all the damage that has been done could have been avoided. There is nothing about Brexit that is intrinsically difficult. It is all just very very time consuming.
"There is no ECJ jurisdiction over EFTA members. And EFAT members are not in the Customs Union. So the only sticking point on her red lines would be Freedom of Movement."
The most obvious solution to addressing free movement in an EFTA model is to reform our non contributory welfare system so that EU migrants whether in work or not are ineligible for tax credits, housing benefit until they have paid in for a number of years etc etc. Problem is you would have to apply that to Brits - i.e. young people - as well. The concepts of tax credits and housing benefit just don't exist in central and eastern Europe bar one or two exceptions.
There was a proposal at one stage that you nominally start contributions at the age of 14 or something, though in reality it's the Government paying your contributions. So that means you're applying it to young British people.
I haven't looked into it for more than about 2.3 seconds so have no idea whether it's remotely realistic or a case of Daubenton's faeces.
I simply cannot understand the ERGs position. simple maths shows they do not, and will not have the numbers for a hard Brexit/no deal.
Therefore they have two tactics.
1) Get a no-deal by default, despite the numbers in the house being against it. Which i think is highly unlikely given an extention or even revoking is much more palatable.
2) Topple May. get a ERGer as PM/Leader and win a GE. which I think is also hugely improbable as the ERG are not the majority of MPs (and would result in huge defections out of the party if they did win), and good luck winning a majority on a utterly split party.
The ERG don’t need the numbers. They have no deal on the statute book already. They think - and, sadly, they may well be right in this - that so long as no alternative legislation is passed they win.
At least they're being honest about what they want.
The MPs who voted for A50 but are against a deal and no deal are the hypocrites.
The ERG were liars during the referendum campaign when they claimed a deal would be easy peasy. I don’t recall them saying that if we voted Leave it meant a No Deal exit.
Conversely a Leaver would have to be a special kind of dim not to have foreseen precisely this outcome. Whatever the outcome will be of course.
I foresaw a smooth movement to EEA, a reversion to common market trade agreement with common standards. And a government creating the infrastructure to properly introduce the entirely legal free movement of labour rules that exist and have not been used. The EU would be fairly cooperative of something that kept us within their sphere influence.
There would need to be a customs agreement, that might take a bit longer, but that’s what a time period is for. I didn’t realise the utter madness that was the PMs redlines would become an article of faith.
Thank you for finally confirming that you are delusional.
You don’t think a complete move to EEA/Norway style status could not be agreed within the first two years, and the further two years of the WA?
The problems come down to the red lines of insisting no ECJ jurisdiction, no free movement and not participation in the customs union. It doesn’t really give the EU much to work with, or her.
"This deal is getting worse all the time!" - Lando Calrissian.
Do you still Be Leave, my chirpy chum?
Um, this may raise a few eyebrows on here, but it's getting to the point that I may abstain or even vote Remain if there's another referendum...
Are you reverting from FarageSunil to MilibandSunil?
This question is wrong at a time when negotiations are still ongoing. Parliament has acted in a reckless and provocative manner in the way it's gone about these issues. I urge all MPs to get around the table, put aside the rhetoric, and stop this kind of action happening again!
Let MPs vote on whatever they want. They're just emphasising their essential worthlessness. It's always been the case but one rarely has the opportunity to see it so obviously.
[snip] I think the EU is at the stage of saying - if you don't like this deal, go without or stay. Your call. But we are not wasting any more time indulging your nonsense. I can't say I blame them.
As regards the Withdrawal Agreement, that is true, and has been their consistent position since November. However, they would be open to discussing a different long-term relationship, involving a softer Brexit. That has always been available. It basically makes no difference from the EU's point of view, because the final relationship hasn't been negotiated in any detail anyway (we haven't really started that bit, thanks to their sequencing). The only practical effect of moving in that direction is that it might give Labour MPs an excuse for voting for the current WA. But that assumes that Labour won't just continue to oppose for the sake of opposition.
May might have been more successful if she had been less dismissive of opposition concerns.
She has created conditions where no opposition MP would want to work with her.
Not really. Opposition MPs (with a few honourable exceptions) aren't interested in a workable solution. They just want an excuse to mouth absurd slogans such as 'opposing a Tory Brexit', which by definition would be any form of Brexit the government was involved with. In any case they are as deluded as the ERG in terms of what the EU might accept.
You're both right.
May has made no serious efforts to reach out to the Opposition, but even if she did, all but a handful of the Opposition would vote against anything she proposed.
Probably not the most subtle description by Boris but given police budgets are constrained shouldn't the priority be on tackling crimes happening now where the perpetrator is still alive and can be prosecuted - dead people cannot commit crimes anymore whereas criminals not caught can do?
In large parts of the country there is literally no visible police presence at all. Even in London the only place I am guaranteed to see police officers on a daily basis is around Parliament.
Because if police are in short supply and budgets are constrained don't we need to prioritise e.g. once all the knife crimes are solved we can allocate resources to twitter spats and cases where the perpetrator died a decade ago?
Well, no. Some of this 'historic' abuse isn't necessarily historic, especially if people are suffering the consequences, even if the culprit is dead.
Then there's always the issue of letting culprits know that, however long ago it occurred, you might still be investigated and prosecuted.
Finally, there's the fact that in many cases there are systematic failings that need clearing up: just look at yesterday's prosecution of an officer who abused many boys at a detention centre.
Isn't the answer to fund counselling for the victims - and allow police officers to get out and stop crimes actually happening now or at least catch the perpetrators?
Perhaps if we had more police patrolling the streets instead of patrolling twitter or doing desk work the knife crime epidemic might not be so bad - as the police are now essentially invisible in terms of street presence (except of course around Parliament!).
Mr. T's idea of a two-stage referendum (May's deal yes/no, then if no wins, leave with no deal or remain) might be the least bad credible option.
That's not the least bad credible option, it's an incredibly terrible option, because the weird bit of conditionality ("if no wins...") encourages Remainers to vote tactically for No Deal. Keep it simple and delete the "if no wins" and it's definitely plausible, although I'd be surprised if the government wanted to try Cameron's "ask the voters if they want to try something bad with poorly-defined implications" trick again.
I don’t think you understand the proposal (which wasn’t mine originally, by the way, it was someone else on here - apologies but I have forgotten who)
Hardcore Leavers are understandably going to be mightily pissed off at voting again, so to satisfy them (if that’s possible) the first stage should just be a choice of Brexits. However we can’t ignore the fact that 48% of voters wanted Remain and all polls show Remain is now in the lead, so Remain has to be a choice at some stage.
Ergo
Stage 1. The vote is on May’s deal - Yes or No. If Yes, we take the deal, if No, we move on to
Stage 2. No deal (the only alternative Brexit to May’s deal), versus Remain - a simple choice
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most democratic way out of this mess, I reckon. And FWIW I think May’s deal would have a pretty good chance of passing at Stage 1. So in that case we Brexit, sans chaos
I was one of the advocates at the time, though didn't actually come up with the formulation. It >might< still work, but the chances of getting parliament to vote for it, and the EU to agree to an extension during which it would be voted on, seem exceeding slim now.
Boles on the radio this morning, sounding sensible... Tory MP Nick Boles, who has voted twice in favour of Theresa May's deal, tells BBC Radio 5 live that the prime minister "hasn’t allowed Parliament to explore what alternative compromises we might support".
"We’ve never been allowed to debate and vote on anything other than her deal," he says.
He calls Mrs May a "control freak" who has "very clear red lines".
He says the UK is a "laughing stock" with trading partners who "all have their heads in their hands".
Mr Boles says the PM needs to resign "as soon as" a Brexit deal is agreed.
"Not now because the government needs to be led," he says.
"The truth is we can't afford to take the time out to choose someone else.
"Should she go as soon as... the ink is dry on some deal? Absolutely.
"So I'm not in any sense a fan of her staying for any moment longer than necessary, but right now it is necessary that she continues to conduct these negotiations."
Perhaps Guy would also like to cancel the EU elections in Italy, Sweden, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Spain, France, Netherlands etc etc - basically anywhere where votes might not vote in large numbers for the tired EPP/ALDE/Socialist tripartite club but pick populist parties instead?!
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
It would not put us out of our misery. If people wanted to get rid of May, they should have done so in 2017 or 2018. Changing PM now is pointless.
We need an experienced cabinet minister, preferably a lawyer, and someone committed to us leaving the EU as Prime Minister to navigate us through this mess.
Probably not the most subtle description by Boris but given police budgets are constrained shouldn't the priority be on tackling crimes happening now where the perpetrator is still alive and can be prosecuted - dead people cannot commit crimes anymore whereas criminals not caught can do?
In large parts of the country there is literally no visible police presence at all. Even in London the only place I am guaranteed to see police officers on a daily basis is around Parliament.
Because if police are in short supply and budgets are constrained don't we need to prioritise e.g. once all the knife crimes are solved we can allocate resources to twitter spats and cases where the perpetrator died a decade ago?
Well, no. Some of this 'historic' abuse isn't necessarily historic, especially if people are suffering the consequences, even if the culprit is dead.
Then there's always the issue of letting culprits know that, however long ago it occurred, you might still be investigated and prosecuted.
Finally, there's the fact that in many cases there are systematic failings that need clearing up: just look at yesterday's prosecution of an officer who abused many boys at a detention centre.
Isn't the answer to fund counselling for the victims - and allow police officers to get out and stop crimes actually happening now or at least catch the perpetrators?
Perhaps if we had more police patrolling the streets instead of patrolling twitter or doing desk work the knife crime epidemic might not be so bad - as the police are now essentially invisible in terms of street presence (except of course around Parliament!).
'Patrolling twitter' has little to do with Boris' comments, which were about sexual crimes against children.
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
It would not put us out of our misery. If people wanted to get rid of May, they should have done so in 2017 or 2018. Changing PM now is pointless.
We need an experienced cabinet minister, preferably a lawyer, and someone committed to us leaving the EU as Prime Minister to navigate us through this mess.
There's only one man for the job, Ken Clarke.
As I said yesterday, it's a funny world in which Ken Clarke is doing more to achieve Brexit than people like Bill Cash, JRM, and John Redwood.
He appears to be holding out hope for her deal. Or is he also secretly in favour of no deal, and contributing to the filibuster ?
"...further legal advice..."???? I'm a practicing solicitor. Once I have advised on a matter that tends to be, in the absence of a change in circumstances, it. I don't get a second bite of the cherry. If I'm not sure about something I take some time to consider or instruct a barrister to think it through for me. I think that's true of most. The surest way NOT to win round a client is to say "...oh, there's something I forgot to mention...".
To be fair to Cox, it's been reported he didn't get to see the deal until 1am that morning.
Mr. Tokyo, why would a Remainer vote 'tactically' for No Deal when their choice at that stage would be between that and staying in? Do you mean they'd tactically oppose May's deal?
Having just two options would be much simpler but then the question becomes which option isn't available.
I'm talking about the first round (Yes Deal or No Deal): Because of the "if no wins" clevers, the only way for them to get a vote allowing them to Remain would be to vote for No Deal in the first round. Remain would probably win the second round which would make that moot, but it would be weird and pointlessly dangerous setup.
The solution is just to keep it simple and make the second round happen regardless of the result of the first, so the first round is "What is Brexit?" and the second round is, "Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it?".
I think you still don’t get it (though you are quite incoherent so it’s hard to tell)
The choice at Stage One is not between May’s Deal or No Deal, it is just Yes or No to May’s deal, in the certain knowledge that if it’s No to May’s deal, then in round two you can have your desired Remain
There’s no need for tactical voting, or chicanery, it’s actually quite simple.
I also accept this is all moot, and we probably don’t have time for this more satisfying solution, but at least it shows there are options out there
Actually a referendum is the only solution it seems now. But on what?
May vs Remain i guess.
I wonder whether May could get a May vs Remain referendum through Parliament. Soubry, Grieve, Boles and others said they'd be prepared to pull down the government to prevent that happening. I wonder whether half a dozen ERGers would be prepared to do the same to prevent a May vs Remain referendum?
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
It would not put us out of our misery. If people wanted to get rid of May, they should have done so in 2017 or 2018. Changing PM now is pointless.
We need an experienced cabinet minister, preferably a lawyer, and someone committed to us leaving the EU as Prime Minister to navigate us through this mess.
There's only one man for the job, Ken Clarke.
If only.
I win big time if the men in suits put Hague in as a caretaker PM to get us through this disaster.
As one of the civil servants said to the Heath Government on the EEC's requirements for British accession - "Here it is, swallow it all and swallow it now, its not going to change."
Since the day we entered to the day we leave we have never got a penny more than we've put in. Not one. It was never a comfortable organisation for us. We have influenced it, and it has influenced us, much for the better on both cases. But we have never led it. It is and always has been led by a France and German axis.
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
Don't be dense.
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
I didn't say it could happen over night but much of this could be delivered via a future trade deal without having freedom of movement. Isn't that what May's deal was aiming for as an outcome - when that is what she claimed anyway?
Just because no one has left the single market doesn't mean no one could as applies to any trading or international body. No one had left the Commonwealth - until Ireland did!
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
Don't be dense.
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
Don't be dense.
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
I didn't say it could happen over night but much of this could be delivered via a future trade deal without having freedom of movement. Isn't that what May's deal was aiming for as an outcome - when that is what she claimed anyway?
Just because no one has left the single market doesn't mean no one could as applies to any trading or international body. No one had left the Commonwealth - until Ireland did!
It is what no deal is though.. literally overnight...
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
It would not put us out of our misery. If people wanted to get rid of May, they should have done so in 2017 or 2018. Changing PM now is pointless.
We need an experienced cabinet minister, preferably a lawyer, and someone committed to us leaving the EU as Prime Minister to navigate us through this mess.
There's only one man for the job, Ken Clarke.
As I said yesterday, it's a funny world in which Ken Clarke is doing more to achieve Brexit than people like Bill Cash, JRM, and John Redwood.
So what do we reckon the likelihood of Spelman-Dromey passing is, given that the Tories/DUP are whipping against and other parties will presumably whip for?
Free vote on Malthouse. Don't see how it passes. It's voting for something that isn't on offer. The deal won't change now and the PM needs to get real with the party. The deal is the only path to brexit.
But I still would like to do National Rail GB network first! Only 12 journeys in Scotland plus a handful of weekend-only routes in England left:
Ayr to Stranraer Helensburgh to Oban Crianlarich to Mallaig Cardenden Loop Croy to Alloa Falkirk to Perth Leuchars to Aberdeen Perth to Dundee Aberdeen to Inverness Perth to Inverness Inverness to Wick/Thurso Dingwall to Kyle
Retford to Barnetby via Brigg line (Sats) Stockport to Guide Bridge (Sats) Clitheroe to Hellifield (Suns) Okehampton to Yeoford (Suns, summer only)
Oh and Meadowhall South to Rotherham Parkgate on Sheffield Supertram
Crossrail still yet to open, but Meridian Water station near Tottenham Hale due to open May (to replace Angel Road nearby)
One weekend in the near future I'm travelling from Sofia to Istanbul and back as the completion of the Marmaray line makes it possible to go all the way into Istanbul by train once again.
To say my wife is jealous (she's wanted to do London to Istanbul by train for years) is a slight understatement.
Free vote on Malthouse. Don't see how it passes. It's voting for something that isn't on offer. The deal won't change now and the PM needs to get real with the party. The deal is the only path to brexit.
The deal won't pass. As long as people cling to that which has twice been humiliatingly rejected there's no chance of any real progress.
As one of the civil servants said to the Heath Government on the EEC's requirements for British accession - "Here it is, swallow it all and swallow it now, its not going to change."
Since the day we entered to the day we leave we have never got a penny more than we've put in. Not one. It was never a comfortable organisation for us. We have influenced it, and it has influenced us, much for the better on both cases. But we have never led it. It is and always has been led by a France and German axis.
You can't really look at just the money we put into the EU and received back as the whole picture. Look at us in the 1970's compared to now and then pick another EU country and see how well we've done compared to them.
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
Don't be dense.
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
I didn't say it could happen over night but much of this could be delivered via a future trade deal without having freedom of movement. Isn't that what May's deal was aiming for as an outcome - when that is what she claimed anyway?
Just because no one has left the single market doesn't mean no one could as applies to any trading or international body. No one had left the Commonwealth - until Ireland did!
Free vote on Malthouse. Don't see how it passes. It's voting for something that isn't on offer. The deal won't change now and the PM needs to get real with the party. The deal is the only path to brexit.
I suppose the idea is that as each option is knocked down one by one so Theresa's deal becomes the final thing still left on the table...
But given the way Parliament is behaving now even if Theresa's deal is the only thing left they might still vote it down... Madness has taken hold! Most MPs are living on their nerves, gin and Valium now I think....
"There is no ECJ jurisdiction over EFTA members. And EFAT members are not in the Customs Union. So the only sticking point on her red lines would be Freedom of Movement."
The most obvious solution to addressing free movement in an EFTA model is to reform our non contributory welfare system so that EU migrants whether in work or not are ineligible for tax credits, housing benefit until they have paid in for a number of years etc etc. Problem is you would have to apply that to Brits - i.e. young people - as well. The concepts of tax credits and housing benefit just don't exist in central and eastern Europe bar one or two exceptions.
That is of course a key cause of Brexit in more ways than one - so many people (Brits and EU migrants) can't make ends meet without taxpayer handouts due to the crazy cost of housing etc.
But reforming our welfare system to move it back to a contributory model would make Brexit seem simple!
And those reforms could easily have been carried out while remaining a member.
And why won't the DUP think this the best think they could ever have introduced to NI? Retail bonanza.....
I better book my Stranraer to Larne ferry tickets now - before they sell out along with car dealers in NI.
Cairnryan to Larne, surely (?)
Yes - you are correct but Stranraer is the nearest major town and rail station to Cairnryan so my geography isn't that far off!
I spent a number of days in Glasgow back in September and October, but I couldn't do Ayr to Stranraer because of the closure due to that "unstable" hotel next to Ayr station!
Free vote on Malthouse. Don't see how it passes. It's voting for something that isn't on offer. The deal won't change now and the PM needs to get real with the party. The deal is the only path to brexit.
The deal won't pass. As long as people cling to that which has twice been humiliatingly rejected there's no chance of any real progress.
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
MV3 might make some sense once other real or imaginary options have been voted on and/or shot down.
Lets just say is 28 March, the EU has come up with some unacceptable conditions for an extension (or cannot agree the terms amongst the EU 27) and the choice is revoke completely, leave with no deal within 24 hours or May's deal.
Is that how May's deal finally passes - as the ERG and some Labour MPs back down to avoid chaos?
Free vote on Malthouse. Don't see how it passes. It's voting for something that isn't on offer. The deal won't change now and the PM needs to get real with the party. The deal is the only path to brexit.
The deal won't pass. As long as people cling to that which has twice been humiliatingly rejected there's no chance of any real progress.
As one of the civil servants said to the Heath Government on the EEC's requirements for British accession - "Here it is, swallow it all and swallow it now, its not going to change."
Since the day we entered to the day we leave we have never got a penny more than we've put in. Not one. It was never a comfortable organisation for us. We have influenced it, and it has influenced us, much for the better on both cases. But we have never led it. It is and always has been led by a France and German axis.
You can't really look at just the money we put into the EU and received back as the whole picture. Look at us in the 1970's compared to now and then pick another EU country and see how well we've done compared to them.
Much of our success was the economic liberalisation we brought in the 1980s, and via the single market exported continent wide. We never quite got the "its not a good idea to pump sewage into the sea and not care much about the stuff industry was putting into the air", but forced into change we were.
We exported economic liberalism and imported environmental responsibility.
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
MV3 might make some sense once other real or imaginary options have been voted on and/or shot down.
Lets just say is 28 March, the EU has come up with some unacceptable conditions for an extension (or cannot agree the terms amongst the EU 27) and the choice is revoke completely, leave with no deal within 24 hours or May's deal.
Is that how May's deal finally passes - as the ERG and some Labour MPs back down to avoid chaos?
Maybe, although it's already so late that chaos can't be avoided completely.
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
MV3 might make some sense once other real or imaginary options have been voted on and/or shot down.
Lets just say is 28 March, the EU has come up with some unacceptable conditions for an extension (or cannot agree the terms amongst the EU 27) and the choice is revoke completely, leave with no deal within 24 hours or May's deal.
Is that how May's deal finally passes - as the ERG and some Labour MPs back down to avoid chaos?
Even at one minute to midnight I don't think enough MPs will back down to get May's deal through.
And why won't the DUP think this the best think they could ever have introduced to NI? Retail bonanza.....
I better book my Stranraer to Larne ferry tickets now - before they sell out along with car dealers in NI.
Cairnryan to Larne, surely (?)
Yes - you are correct but Stranraer is the nearest major town and rail station to Cairnryan so my geography isn't that far off!
I spent a number of days in Glasgow back in September and October, but I couldn't do Ayr to Stranraer because of the closure due to that "unstable" hotel next to Ayr station!
That's a shame. They have a great 4 star hotel in Stranraer - the North West Castle - which only costs about £60 a night. Its the only hotel in the world with its own curling rink!
How's that any different to voting against no deal which is the main motion today?
Dunno. I'm pretty much lost now with all Parliament shenanigans?
Here is my understanding..!
So, the previous Cooper amendment would have ruled out No Deal by forcing the government to seek an extension in the event that no deal was agreed by a certain date (I think this week). The amendment was withdrawn because the PM promised a vote to rule out No Deal today.
However, the actual wording that the government is putting forth today in the first sentence says that the House rejects leaving without a deal - but THEN says that this is the default position unless a deal is agreed! In other words it doesn't actually include any mechanism to prevent No Deal.
Dromey/Spelman apparently doesn't include that last bit about the default position (but doesn't force the government to revoke or ask for a delay either....?)
Mr. T's idea of a two-stage referendum (May's deal yes/no, then if no wins, leave with no deal or remain) might be the least bad credible option.
That's not the least bad credible option, it's an incredibly terrible option, because the weird bit of conditionality ("if no wins...") encourages Remainers to vote tactically for No Deal. Keep it simple and delete the "if no wins" and it's definitely plausible, although I'd be surprised if the government wanted to try Cameron's "ask the voters if they want to try something bad with poorly-defined implications" trick again.
I don’t think you understand the proposal (which wasn’t mine originally, by the way, it was someone else on here - apologies but I have forgotten who)
Hardcore Leavers are understandably going to be mightily pissed off at voting again, so to satisfy them (if that’s possible) the first stage should just be a choice of Brexits. However we can’t ignore the fact that 48% of voters wanted Remain and all polls show Remain is now in the lead, so Remain has to be a choice at some stage.
Ergo
Stage 1. The vote is on May’s deal - Yes or No. If Yes, we take the deal, if No, we move on to
Stage 2. No deal (the only alternative Brexit to May’s deal), versus Remain - a simple choice
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most democratic way out of this mess, I reckon. And FWIW I think May’s deal would have a pretty good chance of passing at Stage 1. So in that case we Brexit, sans chaos
Hmm, very flawed.
It gives Remainers a huge perverse incentive to vote to No to May in Stage 1, so they have a chance to vote Remain at Stage 2.
A very big shift among Leave supporters in favour of the Deal, but probably too late.
Splits by sex on these surveys are very often striking. It rather makes a mockery of those who claim men and women think similarly. The empirical evidence frequently suggests the opposite.
And why won't the DUP think this the best think they could ever have introduced to NI? Retail bonanza.....
I better book my Stranraer to Larne ferry tickets now - before they sell out along with car dealers in NI.
Cairnryan to Larne, surely (?)
Yes - you are correct but Stranraer is the nearest major town and rail station to Cairnryan so my geography isn't that far off!
I spent a number of days in Glasgow back in September and October, but I couldn't do Ayr to Stranraer because of the closure due to that "unstable" hotel next to Ayr station!
That's a shame. They have a great 4 star hotel in Stranraer - the North West Castle - which only costs about £60 a night. Its the only hotel in the world with its own curling rink!
You learn something new every day here! Not that I'm into curling, but SW Scotland's somewhere I've not yet been.
How's that any different to voting against no deal which is the main motion today?
Dunno. I'm pretty much lost now with all Parliament shenanigans?
Here is my understanding..!
So, the previous Cooper amendment would have ruled out No Deal by forcing the government to seek an extension in the event that no deal was agreed by a certain date (I think this week). The amendment was withdrawn because the PM promised a vote to rule out No Deal today.
However, the actual wording that the government is putting forth today in the first sentence says that the House rejects leaving without a deal - but THEN says that this is the default position unless a deal is agreed! In other words it doesn't actually include any mechanism to prevent No Deal.
Dromey/Spelman apparently doesn't include that last bit about the default position (but doesn't force the government to revoke or ask for a delay either....?)
Oddly wasn't that the manifesto every Tory MP was elected on - and Mrs May made very clear what her position was until a few months ago (and technically remains her position).
Given the above represents the relationship 85% of the world has with the EU its perfectly practical as an aspiration - although clearly its not going to be delivered in 16 days!
The Tory manifesto committed to a smooth and orderly Brexit with a deal. “No deal is better than a bad deal” is redundant now that the government has agreed a deal it considers good.
Just discovered that the box for new comments is at the bottom of the page on vanilla!
Anyway, I have also just discovered that Philip Davies voted FOR the deal last night. What is the point of having a wing-nut Tory MP as my elected representative if he fails to do damage to the government at every opportunity?
(Interestingly, his other half voted against - was he on the sofa last night?)
I am not starry-eyed about the EU, which is in a desperate long-term mess of its own. The choice was between competing bad options.
I do understand that from your perspective. The problem is that one option will become progressively worse whilst at the same time slowly eliminating the other option at all. The longer we are in the EU the more difficult it becomes to leave even when things become intolerable for people like yourself who are predisposed to be sympathetic to the EU.
This is why leaving now is so important, not because people might not choose to do so in the future but because they will be unable to have that choice.
In turn, while I disagree with you Richard, I completely respect the sincerity of your views and the care with which you have considered them.
Thanks Alastair. And apologies if I am somewhat short at present. From my perspective as someone who believes a soft Brexit is both possible and desirable, there is an immense amount of frustration at the sight of the two extremist ends of the debate wrecking any prospect of a reasonable resolution to this issue.
And why won't the DUP think this the best think they could ever have introduced to NI? Retail bonanza.....
I better book my Stranraer to Larne ferry tickets now - before they sell out along with car dealers in NI.
Cairnryan to Larne, surely (?)
Yes - you are correct but Stranraer is the nearest major town and rail station to Cairnryan so my geography isn't that far off!
I spent a number of days in Glasgow back in September and October, but I couldn't do Ayr to Stranraer because of the closure due to that "unstable" hotel next to Ayr station!
Last time I went to Stranraer was on the Euston - Stranraer overnight, piloted by a Class 20 forward from Ayr...
Mr. T's idea of a two-stage referendum (May's deal yes/no, then if no wins, leave with no deal or remain) might be the least bad credible option.
That's not the least bad credible option, it's an incredibly terrible option, because the weird bit of conditionality ("if no wins...") encourages Remainers to vote tactically for No Deal. Keep it simple and delete the "if no wins" and it's definitely plausible, although I'd be surprised if the government wanted to try Cameron's "ask the voters if they want to try something bad with poorly-defined implications" trick again.
I don’t think you understand the proposal (which wasn’t mine originally, by the way, it was someone else on here - apologies but I have forgotten who)
Hardcore Leavers are understandably going to be mightily pissed off at voting again, so to satisfy them (if that’s possible) the first stage should just be a choice of Brexits. However we can’t ignore the fact that 48% of voters wanted Remain and all polls show Remain is now in the lead, so Remain has to be a choice at some stage.
Ergo
Stage 1. The vote is on May’s deal - Yes or No. If Yes, we take the deal, if No, we move on to
Stage 2. No deal (the only alternative Brexit to May’s deal), versus Remain - a simple choice
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most democratic way out of this mess, I reckon. And FWIW I think May’s deal would have a pretty good chance of passing at Stage 1. So in that case we Brexit, sans chaos
Hmm, very flawed.
It gives Remainers a huge perverse incentive to vote to No to May in Stage 1, so they have a chance to vote Remain at Stage 2.
Why not simply have May vs Remain?
Because I am trying to please both sides. Brexiteers will cry foul that there is a new vote in the first place, Remainers will Remoan if their option isn’t, at some point, on the ballot. Both have a good argument.
So Brexit (in the form of May’s deal|) gets first bite of the cherry, but then if it falls Remain comes in to play.
The only other decent alternative I’ve heard is to lock MPs inside the Commons with no water, food, or sanitation, until they actively select an outcome - Remain, Revoke, No Deal, Whatever. That is quite tempting. Seriously.
A very big shift among Leave supporters in favour of the Deal, but probably too late.
Splits by sex on these surveys are very often striking. It rather makes a mockery of those who claim men and women think similarly. The empirical evidence frequently suggests the opposite.
Yes, women more likely to say "don't know", which is probably a very fair answer!
Comments
The MP shared a cartoon on Facebook in 2013 of a bearded, jeering hook-nosed Father Christmas from a website called IlluminatiAgenda.com.
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/shadow-minister-apologises-unreservedly-for-sharing-antisemitic-caricature/
Honestly you have to be thick as mince if you don't know this is an anti-semitic image
Didn't you just say something about the least bad of terrible options ?
Going from membership of the single market and customs union to WTO terms will be bloody disruptive.
Can you list me ten countries that have successfully left the single market?
Hardcore Leavers are understandably going to be mightily pissed off at voting again, so to satisfy them (if that’s possible) the first stage should just be a choice of Brexits. However we can’t ignore the fact that 48% of voters wanted Remain and all polls show Remain is now in the lead, so Remain has to be a choice at some stage.
Ergo
Stage 1. The vote is on May’s deal - Yes or No. If Yes, we take the deal, if No, we move on to
Stage 2. No deal (the only alternative Brexit to May’s deal), versus Remain - a simple choice
It’s not perfect, but it’s the most democratic way out of this mess, I reckon. And FWIW I think May’s deal would have a pretty good chance of passing at Stage 1. So in that case we Brexit, sans chaos
The solution is just to keep it simple and make the second round happen regardless of the result of the first, so the first round is "What is Brexit?" and the second round is, "Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it?".
Government vs Parliament yet again!
But I still would like to do National Rail GB network first! Only 12 journeys in Scotland plus a handful of weekend-only routes in England left:
Ayr to Stranraer
Helensburgh to Oban
Crianlarich to Mallaig
Cardenden Loop
Croy to Alloa
Falkirk to Perth
Leuchars to Aberdeen
Perth to Dundee
Aberdeen to Inverness
Perth to Inverness
Inverness to Wick/Thurso
Dingwall to Kyle
Retford to Barnetby via Brigg line (Sats)
Stockport to Guide Bridge (Sats)
Clitheroe to Hellifield (Suns)
Okehampton to Yeoford (Suns, summer only)
Oh and Meadowhall South to Rotherham Parkgate on Sheffield Supertram
Crossrail still yet to open, but Meridian Water station near Tottenham Hale due to open May (to replace Angel Road nearby)
"There is no ECJ jurisdiction over EFTA members. And EFAT members are not in the Customs Union. So the only sticking point on her red lines would be Freedom of Movement."
The most obvious solution to addressing free movement in an EFTA model is to reform our non contributory welfare system so that EU migrants whether in work or not are ineligible for tax credits, housing benefit until they have paid in for a number of years etc etc. Problem is you would have to apply that to Brits - i.e. young people - as well. The concepts of tax credits and housing benefit just don't exist in central and eastern Europe bar one or two exceptions.
That is of course a key cause of Brexit in more ways than one - so many people (Brits and EU migrants) can't make ends meet without taxpayer handouts due to the crazy cost of housing etc.
But reforming our welfare system to move it back to a contributory model would make Brexit seem simple!
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1105786094593937409
But:
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1105786832892108801
Government vs Parliament again. Eventually, of course that worked out OK for everyone except James II.
As JackW would have told us, of course!
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1105785413837512704
I haven't looked into it for more than about 2.3 seconds so have no idea whether it's remotely realistic or a case of Daubenton's faeces.
I've lost track of all the various amendments and amendments to amendments...
So which is it..
Actually a referendum is the only solution it seems now. But on what?
May vs Remain i guess.
Somebody put us all out of our misery. She needs to go.
You're both right.
May has made no serious efforts to reach out to the Opposition, but even if she did, all but a handful of the Opposition would vote against anything she proposed.
Perhaps if we had more police patrolling the streets instead of patrolling twitter or doing desk work the knife crime epidemic might not be so bad - as the police are now essentially invisible in terms of street presence (except of course around Parliament!).
I know sub-editors are viewed as an expensive frippery these days but a competent sub could have tidied that up in 15 minutes.
For her own well being someone needs to tell her to go.
It >might< still work, but the chances of getting parliament to vote for it, and the EU to agree to an extension during which it would be voted on, seem exceeding slim now.
Tory MP Nick Boles, who has voted twice in favour of Theresa May's deal, tells BBC Radio 5 live that the prime minister "hasn’t allowed Parliament to explore what alternative compromises we might support".
"We’ve never been allowed to debate and vote on anything other than her deal," he says.
He calls Mrs May a "control freak" who has "very clear red lines".
He says the UK is a "laughing stock" with trading partners who "all have their heads in their hands".
Mr Boles says the PM needs to resign "as soon as" a Brexit deal is agreed.
"Not now because the government needs to be led," he says.
"The truth is we can't afford to take the time out to choose someone else.
"Should she go as soon as... the ink is dry on some deal? Absolutely.
"So I'm not in any sense a fan of her staying for any moment longer than necessary, but right now it is necessary that she continues to conduct these negotiations."
There's only one man for the job, Ken Clarke.
Boris is bang out of order on this.
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1105790934271315969
Anyone notice that in an hour or so we have a budget?? A FREAKING budget, yet we get nothing from it...
The choice at Stage One is not between May’s Deal or No Deal, it is just Yes or No to May’s deal, in the certain knowledge that if it’s No to May’s deal, then in round two you can have your desired Remain
There’s no need for tactical voting, or chicanery, it’s actually quite simple.
I also accept this is all moot, and we probably don’t have time for this more satisfying solution, but at least it shows there are options out there
I win big time if the men in suits put Hague in as a caretaker PM to get us through this disaster.
Just because no one has left the single market doesn't mean no one could as applies to any trading or international body. No one had left the Commonwealth - until Ireland did!
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1105786833676361728
To say my wife is jealous (she's wanted to do London to Istanbul by train for years) is a slight understatement.
But given the way Parliament is behaving now even if Theresa's deal is the only thing left they might still vote it down... Madness has taken hold! Most MPs are living on their nerves, gin and Valium now I think....
Is that how May's deal finally passes - as the ERG and some Labour MPs back down to avoid chaos?
A very big shift among Leave supporters in favour of the Deal, but probably too late.
We exported economic liberalism and imported environmental responsibility.
So, the previous Cooper amendment would have ruled out No Deal by forcing the government to seek an extension in the event that no deal was agreed by a certain date (I think this week). The amendment was withdrawn because the PM promised a vote to rule out No Deal today.
However, the actual wording that the government is putting forth today in the first sentence says that the House rejects leaving without a deal - but THEN says that this is the default position unless a deal is agreed!
In other words it doesn't actually include any mechanism to prevent No Deal.
Dromey/Spelman apparently doesn't include that last bit about the default position (but doesn't force the government to revoke or ask for a delay either....?)
It gives Remainers a huge perverse incentive to vote to No to May in Stage 1, so they have a chance to vote Remain at Stage 2.
Why not simply have May vs Remain?
Right think I'm with you....
Anyway, I have also just discovered that Philip Davies voted FOR the deal last night. What is the point of having a wing-nut Tory MP as my elected representative if he fails to do damage to the government at every opportunity?
(Interestingly, his other half voted against - was he on the sofa last night?)
So Brexit (in the form of May’s deal|) gets first bite of the cherry, but then if it falls Remain comes in to play.
The only other decent alternative I’ve heard is to lock MPs inside the Commons with no water, food, or sanitation, until they actively select an outcome - Remain, Revoke, No Deal, Whatever. That is quite tempting. Seriously.