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  • Getting rid of Ross Brawn has to be a huge strategic blunder, up there with the time Varus led the Romans into the Teutoburg Forest
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, it wasn't the destination of route, so much as the lack of care on the march.

    It does seem like a bad decision, especially if he goes to a rival team (seems unlikely he could go to a top team, though). However, next eyar's car will have had a lot of work done and the changes are expected to especially benefit Mercedes.

    I hope he remains in F1. He's very strong technically, and as we saw earlier this year, a more decisive team principal than Christian "This is silly, Seb" Horner. He's also helped Hamilton and Rosberg remain on great terms despite team orders being employed. If the Mercedes is highly competitive then maintaining driver co-operation as they potentially fight for the title could become very challenging.
  • Let's remember the PMQs that triggered Ed Balls sacking Sharon Shoosmith

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9jtVkc1rE
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    Christian "Yes Seb, No Seb, Three bags full Seb" Horner ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    The narrative today wasn't Unite but Sharon Shoesmith.

    But Falkirk's got legs - the Information Commissioner is being dragged in:

    Stephen Deans, who quit his job at the plant yesterday, is alleged to have held the personal details of local Labour members on his Ineos computer during an internal party selection contest.

    Members are understood to have been given a ranking laying out their political sympathies - three stars meant they were politically sympathetic to Unite's aims, while one star indicated a lack of support.

    The Information Commissioner has said it is looking into the circumstances of the alleged breaches before deciding whether to take further action.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/grangemouth-union-official-faces-data-watchdog-inquiry.22551165

    How many stars would you have got Roger?

    After embarrassing Balls, the Shoesmith story will fade.....Falkirk will run & run......
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    On topic, earlier on this year, one of PBers most perceptive, brilliantly astute and intelligent poster did identify that Labour were seeping votes to UKIP, at a rate 3 times greater than the Tories were

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/05/29/polling-averages-and-changes-with-the-phone-pollsters-since-january/

    that may or may not have been true then but it is not in this week's polls

    Populus has 10% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters doing so
    Comres has 11% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP and 6% od 2010 Lab voters
    You gov has 15% od 2010 Con boters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013
    Mr Dancer it is hard to criticise Christian Horner when he's just led Red Bull to their fourth consecutive world championship and constructors titles.

    I know you have a weird thing about losers who you think are brilliant and winners are rubbish, which explains why you rate Hannibal and not Caesar
  • On topic, earlier on this year, one of PBers most perceptive, brilliantly astute and intelligent poster did identify that Labour were seeping votes to UKIP, at a rate 3 times greater than the Tories were

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/05/29/polling-averages-and-changes-with-the-phone-pollsters-since-january/

    that may or may not have been true then but it is not in this week's polls

    Populus has 10% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters doing so
    Comres has 11% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP and 6% od 2010 Lab voters
    You gov has 15% od 2010 Con boters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters
    I was looking at the changes from the start of this year, rather than 2010.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2013
    dr_spyn said:

    Spot the missing Labour word.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24715666

    Ed Ballsed it up.

    The BBC have now updated their article to include this paragraph:

    “The Court of Appeal concluded Ms Shoesmith had been "unfairly scapegoated" and her removal from office in December 2008 by the then Children's Secretary Ed Balls had been "intrinsically unfair and unlawful".”

    The power of PB – or just another trick up Auntie’s sleeve of waiting till everyone has read the story?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    On topic, earlier on this year, one of PBers most perceptive, brilliantly astute and intelligent poster did identify that Labour were seeping votes to UKIP, at a rate 3 times greater than the Tories were

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/05/29/polling-averages-and-changes-with-the-phone-pollsters-since-january/

    that may or may not have been true then but it is not in this week's polls

    Populus has 10% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters doing so
    Comres has 11% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP and 6% od 2010 Lab voters
    You gov has 15% od 2010 Con boters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters
    I was looking at the changes from the start of this year, rather than 2010.
    Probably wasn't true then either. Labour losing 6 and UKIP gaining 8 doesn't necessarily mean Labour losing 6 to UKIP.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,772


    After embarrassing Balls, the Shoesmith story will fade.....Falkirk will run & run......

    If you dig deep enough you will always find a data information breach... Its the modern equivalent of doing you for tax fraud when you can't get them on anything else...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,477
    Roger said:

    The narrative today wasn't Unite but Sharon Shoesmith. The Bbc commentators were queuing up to put the boot in. Knowing something about the story this really pissed me off. If this is what reflecting public opinion is all about why not start campaigning to bring back corporal and capital punishment and give Nabavi his fellow reactionaries something to applaud

    I don't recall Richard Nabavi or indeed anyone else on this forum calling for corporal or capital punishment.

    Balls may have tried to do the right thing (Shoosmith - as the person in charge - should have taken responsibility for what happened on her watch) but he did it in the wrong way and this, it appears, may have contributed to today's ruling. As a government Minister he should have known - and would certainly have been advised, if he sought such advice - that it is important to follow the law when reaching a decision. The same applies to Haringey. That this did not happen is disgraceful and has wasted public money.

    One would hope that those in charge at Haringey, other local authorities, Balls and all other Ministers, ex-Ministers and Ministerial hopefuls would learn the lesson - but I doubt it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh dear.

    "Last month the Labour Party announced that it was halting its inquiry into the selection scandal in Falkirk. Over the weekend, thanks to the leaking of over a thousand emails to the Sunday Times, we know what that inquiry would have uncovered, had it been allowed to proceed.

    The first thing it would have discovered is that the Unite trade union was indeed attempting to fix the selection on behalf of its favoured candidate Karie Murphy. In one of the “smoking” emails, Murphy expresses her desire for senior Unite official Stevie Deans to be elected “procedure secretary” for her ballot because it was “the best way to control the process”. Deans success in securing the chairmanship of the local party was described by Murphy in a separate email as nothing less than “a masterstroke considering the influence the chair has in a selection process”. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100243450/falkirks-sordid-cover-up-damages-the-credibility-of-the-unions-the-labour-party-and-ed-miliband/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013

    On topic, earlier on this year, one of PBers most perceptive, brilliantly astute and intelligent poster did identify that Labour were seeping votes to UKIP, at a rate 3 times greater than the Tories were

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/05/29/polling-averages-and-changes-with-the-phone-pollsters-since-january/

    that may or may not have been true then but it is not in this week's polls

    Populus has 10% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters doing so
    Comres has 11% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP and 6% od 2010 Lab voters
    You gov has 15% od 2010 Con boters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters
    I was looking at the changes from the start of this year, rather than 2010.
    Probably wasn't true then either. Labour losing 6 and UKIP gaining 8 doesn't necessarily mean Labour losing 6 to UKIP.
    I know, I've been looking at the numbers from a few polls, and I'm trying to work out just how much of UKIP's current vote didn't vote in 2010. Depending on which polls you use*, you'd say anything from 20% to 40%.

    *edit: also depends on the filters applied as well
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Interesting 'graphs' from Labourlist followed by some revealing comments

    "Over at the New Statesman this morning, George Eaton reports on the disparity between the rise in wholesale energy costs and the rise in how much customers are getting charged by their energy companies – (1.7% wholesale rise vs 11.1% consumer cost hike)."

    http://labourlist.org/2013/10/two-graphs-that-show-the-energy-companies-are-taking-you-for-a-ride/
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Also from Labourlist

    “I advise any young person who wants to go into politics today: go and spend some time out of politics. Go and work for a community organisation, a business, start your own business; do anything that isn’t politics for at least several years. And then, when you come back into politics, you will find you are so much better able to see the world and how it functions properly.”

    That’s what Tony Blair told the Mile End Group yesterday – and do you know what? He’s right. We are currently in a bizarre and deeply unrepresentative situation where the most senior politicians in all both major parties made their names in politics before they were even MPs. Miliband and Balls both worked for Gordon Brown. Cameron and Osborne worked at Tory HQ. Both parties are led by those who have always operated at the apex of politics, who have invariably worked at the very highest levels, whose connections are impeccable and for whom politics has most often been about the chamber, the Treasury or the TV studio, rather than the doorstep.

    But perhaps most troubling of all, it means they are all prone to being trapped in the Westminster Village bubble.

    The bubble is suffocating. Its preconceived notions of who is “up” and who is “down” often drown out real debate about real issues. It’s incredibly unkind to those who swim against the tide and attempt to warn against “received wisdom”. It divides people into “the sort of person who will do around here” and “the sort of person who doesn’t belong here”. Being around the bubble invariably leads to questionable groupthink and warped priorities that makes you a little more out of touch with the world outside with each passing day.

    http://labourlist.org/2013/10/blair-is-right-the-political-gene-pool-is-too-shallow-but-we-shouldnt-be-too-hard-on-the-spads/
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Roger said:

    The narrative today wasn't Unite but Sharon Shoesmith.

    But Falkirk's got legs - the Information Commissioner is being dragged in:

    Stephen Deans, who quit his job at the plant yesterday, is alleged to have held the personal details of local Labour members on his Ineos computer during an internal party selection contest.

    Members are understood to have been given a ranking laying out their political sympathies - three stars meant they were politically sympathetic to Unite's aims, while one star indicated a lack of support.

    The Information Commissioner has said it is looking into the circumstances of the alleged breaches before deciding whether to take further action.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/grangemouth-union-official-faces-data-watchdog-inquiry.22551165

    How many stars would you have got Roger?

    After embarrassing Balls, the Shoesmith story will fade.....Falkirk will run & run......
    I'm no expert here - but this comment in the Times was interesting if accurate.

    "This is going to be fun. Unite don't appear to understand the law. The point is not whether Mr Deans had appropriate access to the information (he probably did), but the computer security of the devices upon which he processed it. And if he than emailed some processed information from that device to someone else (in the CLP or Unite, does not matter), and the data goes over the internet unencrypted... it just gets a whole load worse, legally.

    I'll just bet that Ineos' computers which Mr Deans was "allegedly" using for non-Ineos work were not appropriately encrypted - nor why should they be, as Ineos were not expecting to process Labour Party membership lists - for personal data of third parties. The Data Protection Act is quite clear, and the ICO are typically handing out £200-400,000 fines for this sort of thing. Have a look at recent case studies on the ICO website.

    The only question really is: who'll pay the fine? Unite or the convenor?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2013
    eek said:


    After embarrassing Balls, the Shoesmith story will fade.....Falkirk will run & run......

    If you dig deep enough you will always find a data information breach... Its the modern equivalent of doing you for tax fraud when you can't get them on anything else...
    Surely the more sinister aspect is the Chair of Falkirk Labour rating members on their loyalty to Unite?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    edited October 2013

    Mr. Jessop, but Mercedes are going for Cerberus, not Orthus. I'm not sure a three-headed beast will work well.

    Mr. Eagles, cheers for the answer, though if it seems a rather rubbish reason.

    Ferrari had a Cerberus in their winning years - Brawn (technical directory), Byrne (chief designer) and Todt (team principal). That works as long as the roles are very well defined, as they were until the final years at Ferrari. Although it probably helped that Byrne and Brawn had worked together for many successful years before.

    Of more interest to me is Newey's close ally Peter Prodromou leaving Red Bull. Are there echoes of the machinations and troubles that led to the break-up of Ferrari's golden team in 2006?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @Carlotta

    Certainly deserves legs. Outrageous if true. The Herald is the Scottish Mirror so worth taking note. Having said that there's something about Scottish politics that struggles to get any traction in England. I hope this is an exception
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, are you really disagreeing with me on Horner and Brawn this year?

    Vettel disobeyed a direct order and received no punishment. Brawn enforced a team order, and Rosberg obeyed, even though he was clearly unhappy with it.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    The narrative today wasn't Unite but Sharon Shoesmith. The Bbc commentators were queuing up to put the boot in. Knowing something about the story this really pissed me off. If this is what reflecting public opinion is all about why not start campaigning to bring back corporal and capital punishment and give Nabavi his fellow reactionaries something to applaud

    I don't recall Richard Nabavi or indeed anyone else on this forum calling for corporal or capital punishment.

    Balls may have tried to do the right thing (Shoosmith - as the person in charge - should have taken responsibility for what happened on her watch) but he did it in the wrong way and this, it appears, may have contributed to today's ruling. As a government Minister he should have known - and would certainly have been advised, if he sought such advice - that it is important to follow the law when reaching a decision. The same applies to Haringey. That this did not happen is disgraceful and has wasted public money.

    One would hope that those in charge at Haringey, other local authorities, Balls and all other Ministers, ex-Ministers and Ministerial hopefuls would learn the lesson - but I doubt it.

    It is hard to believe that Balls did not know the legal niceties.

    I think he was playing politics with the case. Ed should keep him on a very short lead indeed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    On topic, earlier on this year, one of PBers most perceptive, brilliantly astute and intelligent poster did identify that Labour were seeping votes to UKIP, at a rate 3 times greater than the Tories were

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/05/29/polling-averages-and-changes-with-the-phone-pollsters-since-january/

    that may or may not have been true then but it is not in this week's polls

    Populus has 10% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters doing so
    Comres has 11% of 2010 Con voters going to UKIP and 6% od 2010 Lab voters
    You gov has 15% od 2010 Con boters going to UKIP just 2% of 2010 Lab voters
    I was looking at the changes from the start of this year, rather than 2010.
    Probably wasn't true then either. Labour losing 6 and UKIP gaining 8 doesn't necessarily mean Labour losing 6 to UKIP.
    I know, I've been looking at the numbers from a few polls, and I'm trying to work out just how much of UKIP's current vote didn't vote in 2010. Depending on which polls you use*, you'd say anything from 20% to 40%.

    *edit: also depends on the filters applied as well
    I suspect Labour non-voters in 2010 are the most likely source of Labour affiliated UKIP VI now - most who voted Lab in 2010 will still be with Lab - while Con will have lost some Con voters in 2010 to UKIP. It's a bit like those much touted '2010 Lib Dems' - in truth over a third were probably Labour - they've gone home & they're not going back....
  • Mr. Eagles, are you really disagreeing with me on Horner and Brawn this year?

    Vettel disobeyed a direct order and received no punishment. Brawn enforced a team order, and Rosberg obeyed, even though he was clearly unhappy with it.

    Ends justify the means, Horner's team won the constructors championship and Drivers title.

    Ross Brawn's team didn't.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Jessop, I didn't pay attention to backroom stuff back then, so it's an interesting point you make.

    Prodromou's off to McLaren, but it seems unlikely Brawn's going there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, your mathematics is as bad as your history!

    The points for the team of Webber being 1st and Vettel 2nd are the same as if Vettel were 1st and Webber 2nd!
  • Mr. Eagles, your mathematics is as bad as your history!

    The points for the team of Webber being 1st and Vettel 2nd are the same as if Vettel were 1st and Webber 2nd!

    Webber is the Phil Collins to Vettel's Peter Gabriel.

    Horner saw that and marshalled his resources and tactics accordingly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    Mr. Jessop, but Mercedes are going for Cerberus, not Orthus. I'm not sure a three-headed beast will work well.

    Mr. Eagles, cheers for the answer, though if it seems a rather rubbish reason.

    Ferrari had a Cerberus in their winning years - Brawn (technical directory), Byrne (chief designer) and Todt (team principal). That works as long as the roles are very well defined, as they were until the final years at Ferrari. Although it probably helped that Byrne and Brawn had worked together for many successful years before.

    Of more interest to me is Newey's close ally Peter Prodromou leaving Red Bull. Are there echoes of the machinations and troubles that led to the break-up of Ferrari's golden team in 2006?
    God I hope so - And combined with the engine changes I hope F1 might be competitive again. Or a British driver having the same sort of dominance that Vettel has done. One of the two.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @Plato - Nothing to see! Move along!

    "It’s no longer about the rigging of one CLP selection. It’s about Ed Miliband’s credibility as a leader, and as a potential Prime Minister."
  • Apologies for linking to Guido, but he's got a preview of the forthcoming expenses scandal to hit in the next month.

    The Times said it was something done by all parties, including some very senior MPs

    http://order-order.com/2013/10/29/shadow-cabinet-minister-bungs-rent-expenses-to-gmb-union/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,311
    edited October 2013
    Roger said:

    @Carlotta
    Certainly deserves legs. Outrageous if true. The Herald is the Scottish Mirror so worth taking note. Having said that there's something about Scottish politics that struggles to get any traction in England. I hope this is an exception

    The Daily Record is the Scottish Mirror (ie house tabloid for Labour) and is in fact owned by Trinity Mirror. The broadsheet Herald has vestigial links with SLabour and access to some insider insights, but they're far from uncritical.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    dr_spyn said:

    Spot the missing Labour word.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24715666

    Ed Ballsed it up.

    The BBC have now updated their article

    just another trick up Auntie’s sleeve of waiting till everyone has read the story?
    Quite, quite mad.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    Having said that there's something about Scottish politics that struggles to get any traction in England. I hope this is an exception

    Grangemouth dominated the news all last week - and Deans' resignation was second or third on the bulletin last night, which in the context of 'stormageddon' is going some....so maybe the media's gaze has, however briefly, lifted beyond the M25......anyway, there's lots of talking heads in London they can interview for their opinions on the matter.....

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2013
    R0berts said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Spot the missing Labour word.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24715666

    Ed Ballsed it up.

    The BBC have now updated their article

    just another trick up Auntie’s sleeve of waiting till everyone has read the story?
    Quite, quite mad.
    It was a joke, directed at the conspiracy theorists here.

    And in future, please don’t cut and edit my posts in order to give a false impression of my opinion.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @uniondivvie.

    'They are the Scottish Mirror'

    Yes I know. I did an ad for them a few years ago with James Cosmo. Have to say they're very nice people and if it wasn't for an attack of midges it would have been a very pleasant shoot!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, now I know you're being silly.

    Mr. Pulpstar, if the rumours of Mercedes (engine) being the best by a significant margin are true that could be interesting, as all the major teams (McLaren, Mercedes and Force India) have, at present, a British driver.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    Betting post ----

    https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/football-domestic/league-2/mm4.uk.meeting.4184825/league-2-championship-index

    'The field' has 4 'live' teams, they are 7th, 8th, 10th and 15th in a very close and competitive league. This has been posted before but the price is the same to buy (11) as it was then meanwhile the positions of the teams have improved. I've bought a bit more.
  • Mr. Eagles, now I know you're being silly.

    Mr. Pulpstar, if the rumours of Mercedes (engine) being the best by a significant margin are true that could be interesting, as all the major teams (McLaren, Mercedes and Force India) have, at present, a British driver.

    Dear me, you've spelt "right" as "silly"
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    Mr. Eagles, are you really disagreeing with me on Horner and Brawn this year?

    Vettel disobeyed a direct order and received no punishment. Brawn enforced a team order, and Rosberg obeyed, even though he was clearly unhappy with it.

    Ends justify the means, Horner's team won the constructors championship and Drivers title.

    Ross Brawn's team didn't.
    Red Bull took over Jaguar in 2005. They had their first win in 2009, four years later (leaving aside the Torro Rosso win at Monza in 2008), and their first constructors championship in 2010, five years later.

    Mercedes took over Brawn in 2010.They had their first win in 2012, two years later; I wouldn't expect them to win a constructor's championship before 2015/6. Brawn's departure (and the seemingly constant team changes) imperils that. I can only presume that Mercedes believe the new triumvirate is a better fit. And they might be right. But it will take a season or two for any team changes to settle down.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Incidentally, Mr. Eagles, you might enjoy Adrian Goldsworthy's Roman Warfare. It takes a look at the evolution of the Roman army from the start to the 6th century (the last time an effort was made to reclaim Rome for the Empire): http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/review-roman-warfare-by-adrian.html
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013


    BBC – “Former Children's Secretary Ed Balls should pay compensation to ex-Haringey Children's boss Sharon Shoesmith following the death of Baby P, according to the Appeal Court judges.”

    “She could be entitled to payments covering her back-dated salary, loss of future earnings and her pension. - But in their judgement the Appeal Court judges suggest the former Children's Secretary Ed Balls should also be asked to contribute.”

    Sadly, I think the Beeb have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I'm pretty sure the judges are saying the Secretary of State in his official capacity (i.e. effectively the taxpayer), not Ed Balls personally, should cough up.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Not really a Tebbiter myself - but this is true.

    "There was a great deal of "concealed unemployment", mostly in the form of overmanning in manufacturing industry, but overwhelmingly people who became unemployed were keen to get back into work.

    Long-term unemployment was concentrated amongst older men made redundant from declining industries, particularly mining, and often in areas far from those where new jobs were being created which probably reduced any stigma of long term joblessness.

    A second factor has been immigration. If immigrants are willing to travel a thousand miles to fill a job vacancy here, it is harder for British people to claim that there are no jobs available. At the same time there is also an understandable outrage against foreigners living off our welfare system with no apparent intention of working other than at petty street crime. > http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100243433/career-unemployment-and-immigration-why-the-nation-has-turned-against-welfare-claimants/
  • Incidentally, Mr. Eagles, you might enjoy Adrian Goldsworthy's Roman Warfare. It takes a look at the evolution of the Roman army from the start to the 6th century (the last time an effort was made to reclaim Rome for the Empire): http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/review-roman-warfare-by-adrian.html

    Thanks, I'm reading a lot of books these days, again, which is nice.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And this is it for me >

    "A less immediately obvious change over the half century has been within our state education system. It is not just that standards of literacy and numeracy have fallen in the last 25 years, but that there has been a long-term cultural change. Pupils have been encouraged to dream about the jobs that they would like to have, regardless of the realities of their talents and the labour market. In real life there are not that many jobs as celebrities, fashion designers or film stars, and creating a sense of entitlement to such careers, without any sense that to get to the top of the ladder in any career it is necessary to start on the bottom rung, does no good service."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    I've been reading a bit less recently, alas. It was a very enjoyable read (not much focus at all on individual generals, it's all about the general shape of the army and the political structure, which is obviously heavily intertwined with the military).
  • I've been reading a bit less recently, alas. It was a very enjoyable read (not much focus at all on individual generals, it's all about the general shape of the army and the political structure, which is obviously heavily intertwined with the military).

    I spend about 12 hours a week on a train these days. On outward journey I read the Times, and on the way back, I use the kindle app.

    Last book I read was the latest Bridget Jones book.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    UK Energy costs add to cause of lost jobs and makes UK industry uncompetitive.

    "Nearly 500 jobs are due to be cut by Tata Steel at its plants in Scunthorpe, Workington and Teesside, the company has confirmed.

    The planned cuts have been blamed on prolonged weak demand in the construction industry.

    About 340 jobs could be affected in Scunthorpe, 90 in Workington and 40 in Teesside.

    The company said the cuts would mainly affect management and administrative roles.

    Chief executive of Tata Steel's European operations, Karl Koehler said: "European steel demand this year is expected to be only two-thirds of pre-crisis levels after falls in the past two years.

    "On top of the challenging economic conditions, rules covering energy and the environment in Europe and the UK threaten to impose huge additional costs on the steel industry."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24725339
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976


    BBC – “Former Children's Secretary Ed Balls should pay compensation to ex-Haringey Children's boss Sharon Shoesmith following the death of Baby P, according to the Appeal Court judges.”

    “She could be entitled to payments covering her back-dated salary, loss of future earnings and her pension. - But in their judgement the Appeal Court judges suggest the former Children's Secretary Ed Balls should also be asked to contribute.”

    Sadly, I think the Beeb have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I'm pretty sure the judges are saying the Secretary of State in his official capacity (i.e. effectively the taxpayer), not Ed Balls personally, should cough up.
    Well quite, that is also my understanding of the tribunal ruling – hence the uproar emanating from the Min of Education today for past follies.
  • Well done to the Telegraph for getting "bashing" and "bishop" into their headline

    English have bashed Scots for 800 years, says Archbishop

    Justin Welby says it is ‘understandable’ that Scots are reluctant to cooperate with the English

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10411067/English-have-bashed-Scots-for-800-years-says-Archbishop.html
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Roger said:

    Having said that there's something about Scottish politics that struggles to get any traction in England. I hope this is an exception

    Grangemouth dominated the news all last week - and Deans' resignation was second or third on the bulletin last night, which in the context of 'stormageddon' is going some....so maybe the media's gaze has, however briefly, lifted beyond the M25......anyway, there's lots of talking heads in London they can interview for their opinions on the matter.....

    And more emails coming soon from the Sunday Times .... drip drip drip..
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    When choosing between bashing Balls and bashing the BBC it becomes tricky. Just shows the problems Shapps BBC is going to face when it starts trying to accurately reflect Tory Party thinking
  • Roger said:

    When choosing between bashing Balls and bashing the BBC it becomes tricky. Just shows the problems Shapps BBC is going to face when it starts trying to accurately reflect Tory Party thinking

    Some of us are very good at multitasking
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, super, you'll be able to quickly buy and read my next book :D

    Also, the Archsocialist is an arse.
  • Mr. Eagles, super, you'll be able to quickly buy and read my next book :D

    Also, the Archsocialist is an arse.

    I like your books.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    R0berts said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Spot the missing Labour word.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24715666

    Ed Ballsed it up.

    The BBC have now updated their article

    just another trick up Auntie’s sleeve of waiting till everyone has read the story?
    Quite, quite mad.
    It was a joke, directed at the conspiracy theorists here.

    And in future, please don’t cut and edit my posts in order to give a false impression of my opinion.

    Ah OK, many apologies.

    Reading some posts on here about the BBC, you could forgive me for thinking you were serious!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited October 2013

    ...there is no swingback to the Tories because there hasn't been a swing from the Tories, snd the swing that has happened, from the :anti-Tory LibDems, is the most solid element of British politics today.

    This mantra has become quite repetitive on pb.com recently - but is it true?

    Here is a chart with data from ICM Guardian polls: Selected Facts About Labour's Poll Share

    The red Labour line is Labour's poll share as a %. The other lines are the absolute numbers of people in Table 2 of the ICM polls who are switching between the various parties.

    Conservative-Labour swing voters are out there, in numbers that rival the importance of anti-Tory Lib Dems.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @TSE –“Justin Welby says it is ‘understandable’ that Scots are reluctant to cooperate with the English”

    That’s odd - after reading the Mail’s account of the story this morning, I was left with the impression that the A’Bishop was surprised that Scotland should be so supportive of his plans (to bash the wonga) – despite 800 years of English oppression.

    He's still an 'arse' however.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    R0berts said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Spot the missing Labour word.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24715666

    Ed Ballsed it up.

    The BBC have now updated their article

    just another trick up Auntie’s sleeve of waiting till everyone has read the story?
    Quite, quite mad.

    And in future, please feel free to cut and edit my posts in order to give a false impression of my opinion, it's a great honour to have you, the best poster ever to grace PB, pay attention to what I think.

    OK, if you insist!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,477
    I must say I find the whole Grangemouth/Unite/Falkirk Labour party story incomprehensible and therefore hard to (a) care or (b get outraged about - if, indeed, there is anything tfor an ordinary person to get outraged about.

    It might well be the Watergate of our day for Ed M but hard to see that at the mo.

    Interesting that Labour are now thinking of focusing on pension fund charges - their size and general incomprehensibility. Rather cleverly it feeds into a sense that we're ripped off by the financial services sector......
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @Roberts – “Ah OK, many apologies.” – Accepted and forgotten, have a nice day : )
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    Damn, Jimmy Savile Halloween costume being sold for £14.99 has been removed from Amazon. There is currently one going for £80 on E-Bay.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,854
    Plato said:

    Not really a Tebbiter myself - but this is true.

    "There was a great deal of "concealed unemployment", mostly in the form of overmanning in manufacturing industry, but overwhelmingly people who became unemployed were keen to get back into work.

    Long-term unemployment was concentrated amongst older men made redundant from declining industries, particularly mining, and often in areas far from those where new jobs were being created which probably reduced any stigma of long term joblessness.

    A second factor has been immigration. If immigrants are willing to travel a thousand miles to fill a job vacancy here, it is harder for British people to claim that there are no jobs available. At the same time there is also an understandable outrage against foreigners living off our welfare system with no apparent intention of working other than at petty street crime. > http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100243433/career-unemployment-and-immigration-why-the-nation-has-turned-against-welfare-claimants/

    Anyone else watch the Iceland advertorial last night on BBC2? Inter alia there was the story of how they were opening a new store in Treorchy. 20 people applied for two part-time jobs as delivery drivers, and the successful candidates had been out of work for ages and were delighted to have the discipline of going to work again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,098
    It's becoming obvious that Justin Welby is a deep-dive undercover SLAB clean skin.

    He put in the training hours by going to Eton and acquired a sheen of respectability and now he has surfaced, as the true voice of socialism at the CoE.

    We must remain vigilant I mean talk about liberal guilt complex.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
    A whole 10 minutes......Jack Straw very damning of UNITE & McCluskey - 'wouldn't have happened under McCluskey's predecessor, Tony Woodley'....

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    edited October 2013
    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages

    Come on, you're better than the rubbish you wrote above. Please correct:

    The public's priorities

    1. X Factor
    2. Eastenders
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Cyclefree said:

    I must say I find the whole Grangemouth/Unite/Falkirk Labour party story incomprehensible and therefore hard to (a) care or (b get outraged about - if, indeed, there is anything tfor an ordinary person to get outraged about.

    It might well be the Watergate of our day for Ed M but hard to see that at the mo.

    Interesting that Labour are now thinking of focusing on pension fund charges - their size and general incomprehensibility. Rather cleverly it feeds into a sense that we're ripped off by the financial services sector......

    Quite. A PBTory obsession and one for the political nerds.
    Effect on VI? Nil.

  • French loathing for socialist imbecile Hollande continues to grow ;

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/28/us-france-hollande-poll-idUSBRE99R0U320131028
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    TOPPING said:

    It's becoming obvious that Justin Welby is a deep-dive undercover SLAB clean skin.

    He put in the training hours by going to Eton and acquired a sheen of respectability and now he has surfaced, as the true voice of socialism at the CoE.

    We must remain vigilant I mean talk about liberal guilt complex.

    Topping is the PB Lefties' PB Tory - his conspiracy theories funny and consciously self-aware.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,477
    tim said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    They aren't intellectually capable of explaining the polls, hence that list of comfort blankets
    To be fair, JohnO guessed that the ComRes poll would show a big lead for Labour.

    It's perfectly obvious why the polls are the way they are: Labour have been in the lead for months and months. The Tories lost their mojo a few weeks back and EdM - whatever criticisms might be made about the effectiveness or long-term consequences of his energy policy - has made the political weather.

    Despite the good economic news the Tories have failed to tell a story to the public which resonates with them.

    Hell, I'm not a Labour supporter and the Tories don't even resonate with me!

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    It`s quite bizarre the PB obsession with Falkirk and Ed Miliband.

    Now whatver trouble Len Mcluskey or Stephen Dean may get into and it`s not clear they will,Miliband is completely insulated as he called in the police.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
    A whole 10 minutes......Jack Straw very damning of UNITE & McCluskey - 'wouldn't have happened under McCluskey's predecessor, Tony Woodley'....

    Yes but for the voter on the Auchtermuchty omnibus, what exactly is the story? Not what *should be* the story but will the average voter care about one faction stitching up another faction even if by foul means, or will it be like MPs' expenses -- "they're all in it for themselves"?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    SMukesh said:

    It`s quite bizarre the PB obsession with Falkirk and Ed Miliband.

    Now whatver trouble Len Mcluskey or Stephen Dean may get into and it`s not clear they will,Miliband is completely insulated as he called in the police.

    Hardly 'bizzare' it is a story that keeps rattling on and we are no nearer the bottom of all the shenanigans that have transpired.

    Falkirk: Pressure on Labour to reopen selection inquiry

    Labour leader Ed Miliband is facing pressure to reopen an inquiry into vote-rigging, after a cache of e-mails suggested that the Unite official at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute was involved in derailing a candidate selection investigation.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/falkirk-pressure-on-labour-to-reopen-selection-inquiry-1-3160666
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
    A whole 10 minutes......Jack Straw very damning of UNITE & McCluskey - 'wouldn't have happened under McCluskey's predecessor, Tony Woodley'....

    Yes but for the voter on the Auchtermuchty omnibus, what exactly is the story? Not what *should be* the story but will the average voter care about one faction stitching up another faction even if by foul means, or will it be like MPs' expenses -- "they're all in it for themselves"?
    That UNITE nearly demolished 8% of Scotland's manufacturing and 2% of its GDP to protect a UNITE official? Well, that's what Jack Straw thinks.....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tim said:

    SMukesh said:

    It`s quite bizarre the PB obsession with Falkirk and Ed Miliband.

    Now whatver trouble Len Mcluskey or Stephen Dean may get into and it`s not clear they will,Miliband is completely insulated as he called in the police.

    Always wrong, never learn.
    What was the name of that Scottish town that was a 'non-story'.....Forres....Forfar....it begins with an 'F', I'm sure of it.....pity its dropped out of the headlines, eh?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    tim said:

    SMukesh said:

    It`s quite bizarre the PB obsession with Falkirk and Ed Miliband.

    Now whatver trouble Len Mcluskey or Stephen Dean may get into and it`s not clear they will,Miliband is completely insulated as he called in the police.

    Always wrong, never learn.
    What was the name of that Scottish town that was a 'non-story'.....Forres....Forfar....it begins with an 'F', I'm sure of it.....pity its dropped out of the headlines, eh?
    Must be due another link to a photograph of Cameron in a wetsuit.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tim said:

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
    A whole 10 minutes......Jack Straw very damning of UNITE & McCluskey - 'wouldn't have happened under McCluskey's predecessor, Tony Woodley'....

    Yes but for the voter on the Auchtermuchty omnibus, what exactly is the story? Not what *should be* the story but will the average voter care about one faction stitching up another faction even if by foul means, or will it be like MPs' expenses -- "they're all in it for themselves"?
    That UNITE nearly demolished 8% of Scotland's manufacturing and 2% of its GDP to protect a UNITE official? Well, that's what Jack Straw thinks.....

    When you finally get round to understanding this story you'll see that McCluskey crapped on Deans from a great height.
    I'm paraphrasing Jack Straw - who said 'Unite, from Len McCluskey downwards'....got this wrong....

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    TOPPING said:

    It's becoming obvious that Justin Welby is a deep-dive undercover SLAB clean skin.

    He put in the training hours by going to Eton and acquired a sheen of respectability and now he has surfaced, as the true voice of socialism at the CoE.

    We must remain vigilant I mean talk about liberal guilt complex.

    He is indeed the true heir to Robert Runcie, whom I fondly remember as being for many years the most effective leader of the opposition to Thatcher (well him and Billy Bragg).
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2013
    I may be imagining things but at the back of my mind during those dark years of Brown in No. 10, I seem to think we blues on PB were told off for relying on the ever so good polling numbers that the Tories were getting whilst in Opposition and indeed were being wrongly comforted by them.

    These days you come on PB and suddenly Labour single-digit leads in the polls are the key story which we are 'wrong' to ignore.

    I may be wrong but that's how it feels when I pop in...

    Best push on, nearing 30% up now y-o-y revenues and work to be done.
  • HopiSenHopiSen Posts: 48
  • HopiSenHopiSen Posts: 48
    edited October 2013
    Scratch that- YG already said they'd release. Hooray for YG transparency. (Can't imagine Labour wd mind, given the headline results)

    L Janta-Lipinski

    @jantalipinski@hopisen @IsabelHardman @yougov on its way
  • Some people wish Gordon Brown was still PM, they would still have jobs. Here's a significant example

    Nokia telecoms division profits down by a third

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24725605
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tim said:

    tim said:

    The Daily Politics leads with.....'More Union trouble for Labour in Scotland as the Union convener at the centre of the Grangemouth dispute resigns.....'

    Non story.
    A whole 10 minutes......Jack Straw very damning of UNITE & McCluskey - 'wouldn't have happened under McCluskey's predecessor, Tony Woodley'....

    Yes but for the voter on the Auchtermuchty omnibus, what exactly is the story? Not what *should be* the story but will the average voter care about one faction stitching up another faction even if by foul means, or will it be like MPs' expenses -- "they're all in it for themselves"?
    That UNITE nearly demolished 8% of Scotland's manufacturing and 2% of its GDP to protect a UNITE official? Well, that's what Jack Straw thinks.....

    When you finally get round to understanding this story you'll see that McCluskey crapped on Deans from a great height.
    I'm paraphrasing Jack Straw - who said 'Unite, from Len McCluskey downwards'....got this wrong....


    Even better for Ed then.
    Jesus, do you seriously think that Unite at Grangemouth have damaged Milibands reforms that are coming down the tracks?
    I expect they will be all the more decisive and impressive after the Grangemouth imbroglio then......
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited October 2013
    tim said:



    Always wrong, never learn.

    Well we have discovered that whilst a critique of Ed is allowed , anything mean about Unite is verboten by tim.

    We'll have to call you a Unite shill instead of a Labour shill from now on tim.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
    How much of your salary do you pay these marginal rates on ?

    All of it or a fraction ?

    You'll get it eventually.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @Hopi.

    Not unexpected but certainly first blood to Ed. Perhaps he's smarter than some on here and the evermore bizarre Dan Hodges would have us believe?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    tim said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
    You seem to have inherited The Watchers mindless stalkings from me while I get Floater.

    Ask either of them to post anything substantive and they are screwed.
    We've been waiting for three weeks for Watcher to explain why 66% marginal rates are good, to no avail.

    It's a pincer movement of inept stalkers, Carlotta and Watcher. I do not expect an answer on marginal rates to be forthcoming, and have even less optimism that any answer will be worth waiting for should it ever emerge.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    HopiSen said:
    The triumph of "pig ignorance"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/10410376/Pig-ignorance-abounds-in-our-cost-of-living-crisis.html

    "One of the loudest cheers on BBC’s Question Time last week was reserved for someone who suggested that the solution to rising energy prices in Britain was re-nationalisation.

    I would not normally grace this kind of abject nonsense with a detailed rebuttal – suffice to say that anyone who sincerely believes the cost of fuel would be cheaper if the industry was once more owned by the state and paid for through general taxation is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Yet the remark was also very much indicative of the infantile and, frankly, quite harmful level of debate to which Britain’s wider “cost of living crisis” has descended."
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2013
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
    *You've managed to attribute that quote to the wrong person, dimwit.

    I'd be happy to see total household income taken into account if it meant fewer people received Child Subsidy, and it stopped your incessant bleating about how unfair it was that you were missing out.



  • TGOHF said:



    The triumph of "pig ignorance"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/10410376/Pig-ignorance-abounds-in-our-cost-of-living-crisis.html

    "One of the loudest cheers on BBC’s Question Time last week was reserved for someone who suggested that the solution to rising energy prices in Britain was re-nationalisation.

    I would not normally grace this kind of abject nonsense with a detailed rebuttal – suffice to say that anyone who sincerely believes the cost of fuel would be cheaper if the industry was once more owned by the state and paid for through general taxation is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Yet the remark was also very much indicative of the infantile and, frankly, quite harmful level of debate to which Britain’s wider “cost of living crisis” has descended."

    Yes, but the point is to get into power, not do what is correct. All anybody needs to do is convince enough people.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited October 2013

    TGOHF said:



    The triumph of "pig ignorance"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/10410376/Pig-ignorance-abounds-in-our-cost-of-living-crisis.html

    "One of the loudest cheers on BBC’s Question Time last week was reserved for someone who suggested that the solution to rising energy prices in Britain was re-nationalisation.

    I would not normally grace this kind of abject nonsense with a detailed rebuttal – suffice to say that anyone who sincerely believes the cost of fuel would be cheaper if the industry was once more owned by the state and paid for through general taxation is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Yet the remark was also very much indicative of the infantile and, frankly, quite harmful level of debate to which Britain’s wider “cost of living crisis” has descended."

    Yes, but the point is to get into power, not do what is correct. All anybody needs to do is convince enough people.

    Indeed - that is what the Unite-Labour party is all about.

    Appeasing their voters - like these 150,000.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/80000-londoners-who-applied-for-incapacity-benefits-withdrew-claim-rather-than-face-test-8910779.html

    "Over 80,000 people in London who tried to sign up for incapacity benefit since 2010 withdrew their claim rather than face an assessment, figures reveal today.

    A further 70,000 were declared fit to work having been assessed, meaning only a third of those who began to apply were deemed eligible."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,098
    Member of the public now: XFactor, Strictly, XFactor, Strictly, Downton, Strictly...[phone goes, nice voice: "who would you vote for if there was a GE tomorr...?" Member of the public, tetchily: "Lab/Con/LD/UKIP/Whatever get off the line, GO ABI!"]

    Member of the public GE2015: walks towards booth, alone, it's quiet, no traffic on the roads, an unusual and all too rare moment of contemplation: "Am I _really_ going to let Lab in to c*ck it all up again, whatever my energy bill?"
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    TGOHF said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
    How much of your salary do you pay these marginal rates on ?

    All of it or a fraction ?

    You'll get it eventually.
    The clue is in the name - marginal rates. I pay these rates on any pay rise, a fact you ought to be aware of and understand the economic consequences of as an accountant.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    PB Tory obsessions

    1. The BBC Maoist cell
    2. Something about Falkirk
    3. Save Ed
    4. Ed is an opportunist
    5. Marxist energy policies
    6. Unite

    The public's priorities

    1. Keeping bills down
    2. Better wages




    PB Kinnocks's obsessions:

    1. Other posters on PB
    2. Dan Hodges.
    And punitive 'taxation' of 'middle income' (sic) households on £75k.....

    Boo Hoo Hoo. (I could have sworn it was £83K the other day).

    You still don't grasp my point, do you? Would you think marginal rates of 100% fair? How about 80%? Where would you draw the line?*


    *i do not expect a sensible answer from someone whose grasp of economics is so weak he/she thought the reason Grangemouth supplied 80% of Scotland was because its prices were too high.
    How much of your salary do you pay these marginal rates on ?

    All of it or a fraction ?

    You'll get it eventually.
    The clue is in the name - marginal rates. I pay these rates on any pay rise, a fact you ought to be aware of and understand the economic consequences of as an accountant.

    So what is your average tax rate that you pay ? Include NI if you want to - but remember your pension.

    http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

    Someone on £55k who contributes 5% to their pension pays less than 30% in deductables.

    Which puts whining about the last £1 a bit moot.
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