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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories get closer in Mail on Sunday Survation poll

SystemSystem Posts: 12,250
edited October 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories get closer in Mail on Sunday Survation poll

By 60% to 18% those in the poll said they opposed when asked this question: “At the moment the average annual household energy bill includes £128 in “green taxes”, used to subsidise items such as wind farms, and other government measures. By 2020, this figure will be around £270 Do you support or oppose the existence of these charges?”

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dodradedodrade Posts: 597
    Well, somebody say something!
  • Pilchards
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Poor public. Where to turn?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,112
    Tories get closer without actually moving! 29% is very much on the low-end of the various polling companies, similarly for Labours 35% share.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT

    @GeoffM - have sent you a PM with his name. He is one to watch I think. Wonder what odds I could get on him becoming guv'nor in 6 years?

    @Tim_B Norwegian Air is starting up flight - Gatwick to NY for £150 and to LA for £199. Presumably plus tax in both cases though.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    All polls are irrelevant bar ICM, stick to ICM even if its not 100% spot on, itll be closer than most. Mori is the only other one worth looking at, the rest are for entertainment only.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,112
    tim said:

    Abolition? I thought Dave was going to move them to general taxation.
    He'd better kill the abolition idea sharpish, doesn't want to appear a fake again on these issues does he.

    Do these green taxes pay for specific programs? I know there is the subsidies for home insulation, for instance. If the majority just goes into the government's general fund, then I think it would be fair to describe it as abolition, since you are abolishing a revenue stream without replacing it.
  • Carola said:

    Poor public. Where to turn?

    The country is crying out for a directly elected Dictator.

  • Oh yeah.

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide.

    Lab had a 10% lead with survation a fortnight ago.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,112
    edited October 2013
    What really buggers me with air fares is why is a return flight basically the same price as a single on any respectable fare class. Bah!
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Carola said:

    Poor public. Where to turn?

    The country is crying out for a directly elected Dictator.

    I think they're just crying. All hope is lost.
  • Carola said:

    Poor public. Where to turn?

    The country is crying out for a directly elected Dictator.

    Should the UK be reorganised into the First Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,729

    Lab had a 10% lead with survation a fortnight ago.

    That's right.

    Lab led 37/29 in Survation on Thursday (poll not reported anywhere). These changes are from that Thurs poll.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,729
    edited October 2013
    The answers to the green questions reinforce the points being made on the previous thread re the BBC licence fee.

    The public wants to pay as little as possible - they do not want fancy committees slapping extra charges on their bills - WHATEVER they are for.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    FPT. Telegraph - Minister's TV licence fee threat
    'The BBC could lose its exclusive right to the licence fee if it does not tackle a “culture” of secrecy, waste and unbalanced reporting, a senior Cabinet minister warns.'

    " Last week, this newspaper highlighted questions over a bulletin by Mark Easton, the BBC’s home editor, on a European Commission report about benefits for migrants. It appeared to draw inaccurate conclusions and fail to present the Government’s position fairly.

    Mr Shapps said the item was “wrong” and added that there had been problems with other items by Mr Easton, including one on the Government’s austerity measures, which Mr Shapps described as prophesying “Armageddon, rubbish on the streets and people unburied”.

    Although the minister stopped short of an accusation of “institutional bias” he said: “I do think there is, possibly with the particular journalist, but also there is an editorial question for the BBC about applying fairness in both directions. That also is a question of credibility for the organisation.”

    He highlighted an opinion poll two weeks ago that concluded that the public were content with the outcome of the spending cuts so far, which the BBC downplayed.

    “When they were proved categorically wrong, and people gave the wrong answer and said their services were improved, their response was to bury the story,” he said."
  • Again, I'm not against the findings but it's another poll full of voodoo questions:
    “At the moment the average annual household energy bill includes £128 in “green taxes”, used to subsidise items such as wind farms, and other government measures. By 2020, this figure will be around £270 Do you support or oppose the existence of these charges?”

    Just complete nonsense from a psephological perspective
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Not sure I buy the headline figures. Change in the lead is most likely background noise.

    Mr. Ricardohos, that question is poorly phrased, as was one ITV news ran with the other night.

    It was somethng like: "Have you benefited from the improving economy?" Sounds reasonable, but the problem is 71% said "No", but No can mean either "I am in the same position" or "My situation has worsened".

    Very often pollsters add bad questions which are either leading, or conflate issues.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    MikeL said:

    Lab had a 10% lead with survation a fortnight ago.

    That's right.

    Lab led 37/29 in Survation on Thursday (poll not reported anywhere). These changes are from that Thurs poll.
    That's true. I had not seen Thursday's poll until this evening.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Again, I'm not against the findings but it's another poll full of voodoo questions:
    “At the moment the average annual household energy bill includes £128 in “green taxes”, used to subsidise items such as wind farms, and other government measures. By 2020, this figure will be around £270 Do you support or oppose the existence of these charges?”

    Just complete nonsense from a psephological perspective

    I agree with that. When the question appears to be putting an argument then it is leading.

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    When was the last time a poll showed people opposing the abolition or reduction or any tax?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,729
    If Cameron wins a majority he has a once in a lifetime opportunity to sort out the BBC.

    Remember the background - licence fee frozen for 6 years has had no effect on the BBC at all - no services closed - the level of waste was so vast they could absorb that 6 year freeze.

    Cameron should cut the Licence Fee in nominal terms by about £5 per year - ie £145 to £140 to £135 to £130 to £125.

    That would be small enough to avoid the political damage of the BBC collapsing completely but big enough to ensure it really did have to scale back.

    Do not fluff this opportunity by handing the money saved to anyone else. Do what is popular.
  • The front of the Sunday Times doesn't look good for Ed
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited October 2013
    MikeL said:

    If Cameron wins a majority he has a once in a lifetime opportunity to sort out the BBC.

    Remember the background - licence fee frozen for 6 years has had no effect on the BBC at all - no services closed - the level of waste was so vast they could absorb that 6 year freeze.

    Cameron should cut the Licence Fee in nominal terms by about £5 per year - ie £145 to £140 to £135 to £130 to £125.

    That would be small enough to avoid the political damage of the BBC collapsing completely but big enough to ensure it really did have to scale back.

    Do not fluff this opportunity by handing the money saved to anyone else. Do what is popular.

    BBC HD was closed, as were a number of radio stations. Additionally the number of repeats was increased significantly because the funding for original programming wasn't as available. 'No services closed' isn't quite true, 'No effect at all' is quite far from the mark.
  • The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,729
    Quincel said:

    BBC HD was closed, as were a number of radio stations. Additionally the number of repeats was increased significantly because the funding for original programming wasn't as available. 'No services closed' isn't quite true, 'No effect at all' is quite far from the mark.

    BBC HD was replaced by BBC2HD which amounts to the same thing.

    BBC3HD and BBC4HD are about to open.

    They were going to make some radio closures but dropped the plans.

    The changes are very, very marginal.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Quincel said:

    MikeL said:

    If Cameron wins a majority he has a once in a lifetime opportunity to sort out the BBC.

    Remember the background - licence fee frozen for 6 years has had no effect on the BBC at all - no services closed - the level of waste was so vast they could absorb that 6 year freeze.

    Cameron should cut the Licence Fee in nominal terms by about £5 per year - ie £145 to £140 to £135 to £130 to £125.

    That would be small enough to avoid the political damage of the BBC collapsing completely but big enough to ensure it really did have to scale back.

    Do not fluff this opportunity by handing the money saved to anyone else. Do what is popular.

    BBC HD was closed, as were a number of radio stations. Additionally the number of repeats was increased significantly because the funding for original programming wasn't as available. 'No services closed' isn't quite true, 'No effect at all' is quite far from the mark.
    Good. Close more. Close most of them. Close them or sell them off.

    The private sector will eagerly expand into the gaps if they are allowed to do so without excessive and stifling regulation.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 1h
    BBC respond to threat to licence fee by criticising "political pressure". Isn't that actually a reason for scrapping the licence fee?

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Quincel said:

    When was the last time a poll showed people opposing the abolition or reduction or any tax?

    Every General Election which has returned a Labour government.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    tim said:

    What a surprise, someones been briefing Matt D'Ancona that Osborne was always sceptical about green taxes.
    Wonder which whey-faced dodgy-barneted Baronet that might be.

    Do you mean Sir George Young or Sir Robert Smith? They are the only Baronets I am aware of on the government benches!
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    MikeL said:

    Quincel said:

    BBC HD was closed, as were a number of radio stations. Additionally the number of repeats was increased significantly because the funding for original programming wasn't as available. 'No services closed' isn't quite true, 'No effect at all' is quite far from the mark.

    BBC HD was replaced by BBC2HD which amounts to the same thing.

    BBC3HD and BBC4HD are about to open.

    They were going to make some radio closures but dropped the plans.

    The changes are very, very marginal.
    BBC HD showed programs recorded in HD. BBC2HD shows anything on BBC digitally converted, the change saved the BBC over £2m which isn't exactly nothing. The BBC also sold a prime piece of London real estate and moved up to much cheaper Manchester. I wonder if the Tories, or Labour would be willing to move their HQ out of London? Or maybe sell off some of Whitehall and move it north to show their commitment.

    The BBC was forced to make cuts, and they did so in a way which didn't disrupt headline services but instead was inconvenient to the back-office. Exactly what the government say everyone should be doing.
  • This weekend, a YouGov poll for The Sunday Times gives Labour a six-point lead, unchanged from last weekend. Miliband’s party has only a tiny lead on its policies to address the cost of living — 26% of voters trust Labour to deal with the issue better and 24% prefer the Tories.

  • tim said:

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

    Shapps/Green the purveyor of dodgy stats is just the man.

    The lack of self awareness is just glorious. "Report news in the way we want it reported or lose your funding, says Conservative party chairman". Beyond swivel-eyed land that's how the Schapps line will be seen. And yet folk on here will cheer him on.

    My suggestion is that Grant gets to sign everything off before it's aired. That's really the only way to prevent BBC bias.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    tim said:

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

    Shapps/Green the purveyor of dodgy stats is just the man.

    The lack of self awareness is just glorious. "Report news in the way we want it reported or lose your funding, says Conservative party chairman". Beyond swivel-eyed land that's how the Schapps line will be seen. And yet folk on here will cheer him on.

    My suggestion is that Grant gets to sign everything off before it's aired. That's really the only way to prevent BBC bias.

    Why try to fight BBC bias? It's ingrained and the war is lost. Instead we should embrace and celebrate it.

    Release the BBC like a red-tinged dove to fly freely. Let it soar on lefty clouds and charge only those who wish to view it.

    And free the airwaves too, so that other broadcasters can enter the market and we can choose our own sources of news, views and entertainment from a range of suppliers.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013
    Ed took Dave's advice and switched energy providers when his bill increased
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Tim_B said:

    Roger said:

    It's cheap at twice the price for the radio alone let alone BBC4 which is just outstanding value whatever it costs.

    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.
  • GeoffM said:

    tim said:

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

    Shapps/Green the purveyor of dodgy stats is just the man.

    The lack of self awareness is just glorious. "Report news in the way we want it reported or lose your funding, says Conservative party chairman". Beyond swivel-eyed land that's how the Schapps line will be seen. And yet folk on here will cheer him on.

    My suggestion is that Grant gets to sign everything off before it's aired. That's really the only way to prevent BBC bias.

    Why try to fight BBC bias? It's ingrained and the war is lost. Instead we should embrace and celebrate it.

    Release the BBC like a red-tinged dove to fly freely. Let it soar on lefty clouds and charge only those who wish to view it.

    And free the airwaves too, so that other broadcasters can enter the market and we can choose our own sources of news, views and entertainment from a range of suppliers.

    Don't know about you, but I can currently choose from the BBC, Sky, ITN, Channel 4, CNN, Fox News and quite a few others.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    tim said:

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

    Shapps/Green the purveyor of dodgy stats is just the man.

    The lack of self awareness is just glorious. "Report news in the way we want it reported or lose your funding, says Conservative party chairman". Beyond swivel-eyed land that's how the Schapps line will be seen. And yet folk on here will cheer him on.

    My suggestion is that Grant gets to sign everything off before it's aired. That's really the only way to prevent BBC bias.

    Why try to fight BBC bias? It's ingrained and the war is lost. Instead we should embrace and celebrate it.

    Release the BBC like a red-tinged dove to fly freely. Let it soar on lefty clouds and charge only those who wish to view it.

    And free the airwaves too, so that other broadcasters can enter the market and we can choose our own sources of news, views and entertainment from a range of suppliers.

    Don't know about you, but I can currently choose from the BBC, Sky, ITN, Channel 4, CNN, Fox News and quite a few others.

    Do you get a criminal conviction if you don't send Fox a yearly cheque for permission to own a television?

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Roger said:

    It's cheap at twice the price for the radio alone let alone BBC4 which is just outstanding value whatever it costs.

    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It's becoming clearer all the time that no party will take more than about 35% at the next election.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Roger said:

    It's cheap at twice the price for the radio alone let alone BBC4 which is just outstanding value whatever it costs.

    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.
    So I'm paying to subsidise the US Public Broadcasting Service via the BBC telly tax now.

    Really? Really?

    Privatise the BBC.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,688

    The Conservative party chairman has decided he will judge whether the BBC's news output is acceptable or not.

    Hilarious!

    That should play well beyond the realm of the swivel-eyed right.

    It's absurd, isn't it?

    *I* should decide whether or not BBC output is acceptable.

  • Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Erm, they pay for BBC drama. Its an export earner.
    GeoffM said:

    Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Roger said:

    It's cheap at twice the price for the radio alone let alone BBC4 which is just outstanding value whatever it costs.

    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.
    So I'm paying to subsidise the US Public Broadcasting Service via the BBC telly tax now.

    Really? Really?

    Privatise the BBC.



  • @Southam - Why not go for an independent judge-led inquiry, looking into completely objective facts? Here are three lines of enquiry:

    - The political affiliation, if any, of BBC employees working in news and current affairs

    - The newspapers read by BBC employees working in news and current affairs

    - The frequency with which politicians of different parties interviewed on Today are interrupted by the interviewer.

    No reasonable person could object to this sort of objective test, could they?
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    MikeL said:

    The answers to the green questions reinforce the points being made on the previous thread re the BBC licence fee.

    The public wants to pay as little as possible - they do not want fancy committees slapping extra charges on their bills - WHATEVER they are for.

    Don't the Greeks pay their 'TV licence fee' on their electricity bills?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Just watched an entertaining episode of Inspector Montalbano:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03fv4sv/Inspector_Montalbano_Series_3_Hall_of_Mirrors/
  • Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.

    So all above board, then. Just as we thought.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited October 2013
    >>Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.


    You mean like Downton Abbey and Foyle's War? They air much itv stuff too, and lots of other independent UK stuff. There's nowhere near as much BBC stuff as there used to be. BBC America took care of that.

    Also PBS pays for its drama, BBC or otherwise.

    Also, what has the origin of its paid programming got to do with the funding model of the BBC?

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I'm not sure that ITV would make expensive drama if it were not for them having the BBC as a competitor.
    Tim_B said:

    Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.


    You mean like Downton Abbey and Foyle's War? They air much itv stuff too, and lots of other independent UK stuff. There's nowhere near as much BBC stuff as there used to be.BBC America took care of that.

    Also PBS pays for its drama, BBC or otherwise.

    Also, what has this got to do with the funding model of the BBC?

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    That may be the case - but again what has this got to do with the funding mechanism of the BBC? It would continue to exist in some recognizable form, and period drama, as one of its strengths, would presumably do so too.

    You would be changing the funding method - not the BBC itself, which would have to adapt itself to a different business model.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Let's replace the Lords with the entire country. Online voting for most, or participate in Post Offices, to approve or reject legislation passed by Parliament
  • Freggles said:

    Let's replace the Lords with the entire country. Online voting for most, or participate in Post Offices, to approve or reject legislation passed by Parliament

    No!
  • According to the Sunday Times, David Cameron's choice of the word "Conman" to describe Ed was deliberate.

    Internal Tory polling shows that it resonates with the voters.

    They (voters) universally get it. They know that when it comes to his price freeze, it’s a bit like a bump in the carpet. You can step on the bump, and flatten it, but it just pops up somewhere else,” said a strategist.
  • According to the Sunday Times, David Cameron's choice of the word "Conman" to describe Ed was deliberate.

    Internal Tory polling shows that it resonates with the voters.

    They (voters) universally get it. They know that when it comes to his price freeze, it’s a bit like a bump in the carpet. You can step on the bump, and flatten it, but it just pops up somewhere else,” said a strategist.

    Aren't the Tories "Con"-men?

    :)
  • According to the Sunday Times, David Cameron's choice of the word "Conman" to describe Ed was deliberate.

    Internal Tory polling shows that it resonates with the voters.

    They (voters) universally get it. They know that when it comes to his price freeze, it’s a bit like a bump in the carpet. You can step on the bump, and flatten it, but it just pops up somewhere else,” said a strategist.

    Aren't the Tories "Con"-men?

    :)
    We are many things.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    @Southam - Why not go for an independent judge-led inquiry, looking into completely objective facts? Here are three lines of enquiry:

    - The political affiliation, if any, of BBC employees working in news and current affairs

    - The newspapers read by BBC employees working in news and current affairs

    - The frequency with which politicians of different parties interviewed on Today are interrupted by the interviewer.

    No reasonable person could object to this sort of objective test, could they?

    What baffled me about the Guardian/BBC purchases story was that Guardianistas actually expected the BBC to pay for their newspaper, which, of course, is free online anyway. Unbelievable.

    You could, of course, investigate in which papers the BBC advertises its jobs (thus ensuring the bias of applicants) and therefore sends advertising revenue to.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    The 17% UKIP score shows just how pivotal the UKIP vote will be in 2015. If the Tories can cut the UKIP vote in half and win it back to them they will be ahead of Labour without one Labour or Liberal convert to Cameron!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    According to the Sunday Times, David Cameron's choice of the word "Conman" to describe Ed was deliberate.

    Internal Tory polling shows that it resonates with the voters.

    They (voters) universally get it. They know that when it comes to his price freeze, it’s a bit like a bump in the carpet. You can step on the bump, and flatten it, but it just pops up somewhere else,” said a strategist.

    This doesn't surprise me because I did think it wasn't a natural way for Cameron to refer to another politician, and that he may have been advised to use that word by others.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    edited October 2013
    Cutting green taxes is something that will appeal to UKIP supporters, although it needs to go hand in hand with an expansion of the energy supply through, for example, a growth in nuclear as the government has begun to move towards
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    Also, just been to see Captain Phillips, well worth a watch. Going to Shrewsbury tomorrow and as well as visiting the Castle and Abbey I am also hoping to visit the site of the medieval battlefield just outside the town which also has a café/restaurant and exhibition centre attached
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Erm, they pay for BBC drama. Its an export earner.

    GeoffM said:

    Yebbut, PBS gets most of its drama from the BBC.

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Roger said:

    It's cheap at twice the price for the radio alone let alone BBC4 which is just outstanding value whatever it costs.

    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.
    So I'm paying to subsidise the US Public Broadcasting Service via the BBC telly tax now.

    Really? Really?

    Privatise the BBC.



  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Blimey indeed, the continued fallout from the Falkirk scandal and Grangemouth dispute is absolutely toxic for Unite and the Labour party.

    Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    I saw that earlier, Ed apparently switched to one of the new energy providers as well. :)

    Ed took Dave's advice and switched energy providers when his bill increased

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    GeoffM (last thread) The Royal Mail still has a growing parcels business, there will always be a place for the BBC in terms of major cultural, sporting events and royal and state occasions etc
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited October 2013
    fitalass said:

    Blimey indeed, the continued fallout from the Falkirk scandal and Grangemouth dispute is absolutely toxic for Unite and the Labour party.

    Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.

    Really ? Just two days after gaining a seat in Holyrood ! I believe the Tories came in 4th behind the Liberal Democrats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    edited October 2013
    Looks like ANO will hold the balance of power in the Czech Republic after tonight's election. It looks like yet another entry into parliament by a party founded by a wealth businessman only a month after Palmer's party did the same in Australia
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,192
    HYUFD said:

    The 17% UKIP score shows just how pivotal the UKIP vote will be in 2015. If the Tories can cut the UKIP vote in half and win it back to them they will be ahead of Labour without one Labour or Liberal convert to Cameron!

    As the Spartans said to Philip of Macedon. If.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24690055

    The US bugged Merkel's phone since 2002.

    PBTories are known for their staunch defence of personal liberties. THey are surprisingly quite about this one.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Tim_B said:



    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.

    The problem with the US model is that it gives greater weight to the tastes of the wealthy - which may have political as well as cultural implications. The BBC model (or simply funding the BBC from direct taxation, as Dave seems poised to do foir green taxes) has the advatnage that it allows a neutral general mandate to please and inform the nation. With the exception of some grouchy people on both extremes, it does that quite well - after the NHS , it's I think the most popular British institution (not counting the Queen as an institution).

    Certainly it's the only form of media in Britain that even purports to provide balanced coverage - all the newspapers would probably cheerfully admit to one bias or another. It doesn't always succeed but that's a reason to discuss how that might be improved, not to get rid of it, in the same way as cancer remedies that don't always work should be refined, not abolished.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    HYUFD said:

    GeoffM (last thread) The Royal Mail still has a growing parcels business, there will always be a place for the BBC in terms of major cultural, sporting events and royal and state occasions etc

    Sky does the cricket, football, golf every week. All channels carried the Royal Wedding. Sky did more of the christening than the BBC.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

    Spot on.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Surbiton:

    >>The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.

    You are splitting hairs.

    True, the beeb is not funded directly out of taxation. But the licence fee is compulsory. That is a tax however you look at it. The BBC is funded by the government forcing people to pay a sum of money for its funding each year.

    As a large majority of those paying the license fee are taxpayers, and the licence fee and penalties for non-payment are prescribed by law, it's disingenuous at best to say it's not a taxpayer funded broadcaster. It manifestly is precisely that.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.
    Eh? What?

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    fitalass said:

    I saw that earlier, Ed apparently switched to one of the new energy providers as well. :)

    Ed took Dave's advice and switched energy providers when his bill increased

    Any reason why he shouldn't ? He didn't break any pledge did he ? He will do even better. After June 2015, he will freeze his energy bill [ and yours ] for 20 months !
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Tim_B said:



    If it's such outstanding value then why not adopt the public service model used here in the US.

    The Public Broadcasting Service is funded by its viewers, although this was not always the case.

    For example, Georga Public Broadcasting has radio and TV studios etc provided by the state of Georgia, in return for which it is expected to produce travel and history programs to encourage folks to visit the state, as well as educational prgramming for kids. The best known of these is probably "Augusta's Master Plan", detailing the history of Augusta from Sherman's decision to bypass it to the development of The Masters.

    Programming on PBS is funded by its viewers. 3 times a year it's 'pledge time', for about 10 days or until the target is reached. The stations ask for funds around and during programming. The most popular programming - in other words generating the most pledges - is noted. It's quite simple - you simply call the number on your screen with a credit card.

    If certain programing has outstanding value to you, you can pledge to support it.

    The problem with the US model is that it gives greater weight to the tastes of the wealthy - which may have political as well as cultural implications. The BBC model (or simply funding the BBC from direct taxation, as Dave seems poised to do foir green taxes) has the advatnage that it allows a neutral general mandate to please and inform the nation. With the exception of some grouchy people on both extremes, it does that quite well - after the NHS , it's I think the most popular British institution (not counting the Queen as an institution).

    Certainly it's the only form of media in Britain that even purports to provide balanced coverage - all the newspapers would probably cheerfully admit to one bias or another. It doesn't always succeed but that's a reason to discuss how that might be improved, not to get rid of it, in the same way as cancer remedies that don't always work should be refined, not abolished.

    I agree with Nick Palmer likening the BBC to a cancer.
    That's really a rather perfect comparison.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    GeoffM said:

    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.
    Eh? What?

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster. It is funded by Licence payers. Many of whom are not tax payers.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Yes, really. The Falkirk/Unite/Grangemouth fall out along with the Chilcott Inquiry which has still to be published, both risk hitting Ed Miliband and the Labour party where it really hurts with their 35% strategy. A timely reminder for those 'Libdem switchers' who have moved to Labour in the polls on why they couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour at the last GE.
    surbiton said:

    fitalass said:

    Blimey indeed, the continued fallout from the Falkirk scandal and Grangemouth dispute is absolutely toxic for Unite and the Labour party.

    Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.

    Really ? Just two days after gaining a seat in Holyrood ! I believe the Tories came in 4th behind the Liberal Democrats.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    Surbiton:

    >>The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.

    You are splitting hairs.

    True, the beeb is not funded directly out of taxation. But the licence fee is compulsory. That is a tax however you look at it. The BBC is funded by the government forcing people to pay a sum of money for its funding each year.

    As a large majority of those paying the license fee are taxpayers, and the licence fee and penalties for non-payment are prescribed by law, it's disingenuous at best to say it's not a taxpayer funded broadcaster. It manifestly is precisely that.

    There is actually no hair splitting about it. The licence fee is classified as a tax.

    See here: publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldbbc/128/128i.pdf

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited October 2013
    surbiton said:

    GeoffM said:

    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM -
    >>Excellent. Privatise it. If it really earns money then someone will carry on doing it.

    Either privatized or adopting a PBS-like funding model, there's no reason the BBC itself couldn't carry on doing it.

    The argument is not "BBC licence fee or no BBC", it's "How does the BBC get funded". In some shape or form the Beeb will survive. In this day and age, with so many alternatives, there is no reason to have a taxpayer funded broadcaster. The current form BBC is a dinosaur from a long gone age.

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.
    Eh? What?

    The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster. It is funded by Licence payers. Many of whom are not tax payers.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldbbc/128/128i.pdf

    22. Since our last report there has been a significant change in the position of the
    licence fee. In January 2006 the Office of National Statistics re-classified the licence fee as a tax. Previously, this payment had been classified in the National Accounts as a service charge.
    Explaining the change the Office of National Statistics (ONS) says “in line with the definition of a tax, the licence fee is a compulsory payment which is not paid solely for access to BBC services... A licence is required to receive ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5, satellite, cable”.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    fitalass said:

    Yes, really. The Falkirk/Unite/Grangemouth fall out along with the Chilcott Inquiry which has still to be published, both risk hitting Ed Miliband and the Labour party where it really hurts with their 35% strategy. A timely reminder for those 'Libdem switchers' who have moved to Labour in the polls on why they couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour at the last GE.

    surbiton said:

    fitalass said:

    Blimey indeed, the continued fallout from the Falkirk scandal and Grangemouth dispute is absolutely toxic for Unite and the Labour party.

    Blimey.

    Sunday Times has 1,000 emails from Unite re Falkirk

    More than 1,000 emails reveal how Unite chiefs subverted an inquiry ordered by the Labour leader into allegations that the union had rigged votes in Falkirk to get its nominee selected as the party’s parliamentary candidate.

    The dossier of emails was passed to police last week. It reveals how Unite chiefs:

    ■ Told the union’s PR team to dig out “nasty stuff” on key Labour party figures

    ■ Wrote witnesses’ testimony withdrawing key evidence of alleged wrongdoing, with the new statements approved by the official implicated in the scandal

    ■ Tracked Labour investigators as they interviewed witnesses in Falkirk and boasted how one witness had told them to “F*** off”

    ■ Planned to use senior union and Labour figures to intimidate and disrupt Miliband’s investigation team.

    Really ? Just two days after gaining a seat in Holyrood ! I believe the Tories came in 4th behind the Liberal Democrats.
    It will have zero effect. The only place where it will have an effect is in your blue head. The rest of the country have better things to do. First of all, very few even know where Falkirk is.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Tim_B said:

    Surbiton:

    >>The BBC is not a taxpayer funded broadcaster.

    You are splitting hairs.

    True, the beeb is not funded directly out of taxation. But the licence fee is compulsory. That is a tax however you look at it. The BBC is funded by the government forcing people to pay a sum of money for its funding each year.

    As a large majority of those paying the license fee are taxpayers, and the licence fee and penalties for non-payment are prescribed by law, it's disingenuous at best to say it's not a taxpayer funded broadcaster. It manifestly is precisely that.


    The vast majority of people oppose it being funded out of taxation. That is because it will then be subject to diktat from the ruling party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    Geoff M But key events like the World Cup, Wimbledon, the Open, the Olympics etc will always be cheaper to watch on the BBC than Sky. The BBC also has a remit to provide educational programmes on culture, science and the natural world, heritage and the arts etc
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    DavidL True, but it is what Cameron needs to do
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Nick Palmer -

    >>The problem with the US model is that it gives greater weight to the tastes of the wealthy -

    Does it? What grounds do you have for such a statement?

    I can only speak for Georgia. The average pledge on a radio pledge is $35-75,The average pledge on a TV pledge is $60-$150.

    If you call Georgia Public Broadcasting on a radio pledge, it may well be me who answers the phone. If you call during a TV pledge break, I may well be the floor director running the studio.

    In both cases I help review and analyze the pledges. GPB (and other PBS outfits) has sophisticated techniques for analyzing who has pledged what from where, and what he profile of that zip code is. When you rely on donations for funding you need to know your audience.

    Yes, there are wealthy donors, but the broadcasters do NOT want someone to call and donate $1,000-$10,000.

    The way it usually done is that the announcer will say that any pledge of (say) $50 or more between (say) 8 and 10pm tonight, or during (say) Downton Abbey will be matched by either an anonymous donor, or a named donor or company.

    By doing it this way much more money is raised, and many smaller donors can feel they made a big difference, and are encouraged to donate.

    Trust me, it really works well. By using the money of the wealthy to augment that of the less wealthy, the wealthy do their part, but at the direction of the less well off.

    Honestly, tell me, do you actually have any idea at all how fund raising works for PBS?

    Yet you feel obliged to opine that it suppresses the tastes of the less well off?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited October 2013
    And in doing so, he followed the PM's advice. As a good Consumer Watch dog knows, always look around for the best and cheapest deal to help encourage competition. How is fixing prices in the short term going to provide a better service for energy customers, or aid the future investment needed to help meet our energy needs? You start playing this game with energy prices, and you send out a message that UKplc isn't going to encourage profitable investment opportunities.

    There was a real danger point for the SNP last week when INEOS announced it was going to close the Grangemouth petrol chemicals plant. Having recently brought Prestwick Airport back into public ownership, and also pledged to renationalise Royal Mail in an Independent Scotland. There was the start of a campaign demanding they nationalise the Grangemouth Plant to save those lost jobs. The SNP had left themselves open to creating unrealistic expectations they just could not possible meet. But can imagine the kind of message this must all be sending out to investors if Scotland was to go Independent?
    surbiton said:

    fitalass said:

    I saw that earlier, Ed apparently switched to one of the new energy providers as well. :)

    Ed took Dave's advice and switched energy providers when his bill increased

    Any reason why he shouldn't ? He didn't break any pledge did he ? He will do even better. After June 2015, he will freeze his energy bill [ and yours ] for 20 months !
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Surbiton:

    >>The vast majority of people oppose it being funded out of taxation. That is because it will then be subject to diktat from the ruling party.

    I'm sure they do, and the worry is valid. But it effectively is anyway.

    The licence fee gives plausible deniability but it is a tax by any reasonable definition.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    HYUFD said:

    Geoff M But key events like the World Cup, Wimbledon, the Open, the Olympics etc will always be cheaper to watch on the BBC than Sky. The BBC also has a remit to provide educational programmes on culture, science and the natural world, heritage and the arts etc

    Why are you only comparing costs from Sky and the BBC? Across the hundreds of channels I receive here I can watch all of those events from a string of other stations in a variety of languages. I find F1 commentary much more interesting on Spanish tv (although speaking the lingo helps!)

    The fact that you are comparing prices from two broadcasters (one taxpayer-funded) is an excellent argument for deregulation and other broadcasters being on the scene.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    Surbiton:

    >>The vast majority of people oppose it being funded out of taxation. That is because it will then be subject to diktat from the ruling party.

    I'm sure they do, and the worry is valid. But it effectively is anyway.

    The licence fee gives plausible deniability but it is a tax by any reasonable definition.

    Even government says that it is a tax, as I have linked to twice now. It's not a matter of opinion - it has been a matter of fact since 2006.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Tim_B said:

    Surbiton:

    >>The vast majority of people oppose it being funded out of taxation. That is because it will then be subject to diktat from the ruling party.

    I'm sure they do, and the worry is valid. But it effectively is anyway.

    The licence fee gives plausible deniability but it is a tax by any reasonable definition.

    The BBC like the NHS is a much revered institution in this country. I can bet that in the event of a national emergency, death of an well known public person, the vast majority of the public will automatically tune in to the BBC - even Tories !

    Even the World Cup final - broadcast over other channels too, two thirds will watch the BBC. That's how it is.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    fitalass said:

    And in doing so, he followed the PM's advice. As a good Consumer Watch dog knows, always look around for the best and cheapest deal to help encourage competition. How is fixing prices in the short term going to provide a better service for energy customers, or aid the future investment needed to help meet our energy needs? You start playing this game with energy prices, and you send out a message that UKplc isn't going to encourage profitable investment opportunities.

    There was a real danger point for the SNP last week when INEOS announced it was going to close the Grangemouth petrol chemicals plant. Having recently brought Prestwick Airport back into public ownership, and also pledged to renationalise Royal Mail in an Independent Scotland. There was the start of a campaign demanding they nationalise the Grangemouth Plant to save those lost jobs. The SNP had left themselves open to creating unrealistic expectations they just could not possible meet. But can imagine the kind of message this must all be sending out to investors if Scotland was to go Independent?

    surbiton said:

    fitalass said:

    I saw that earlier, Ed apparently switched to one of the new energy providers as well. :)

    Ed took Dave's advice and switched energy providers when his bill increased

    Any reason why he shouldn't ? He didn't break any pledge did he ? He will do even better. After June 2015, he will freeze his energy bill [ and yours ] for 20 months !
    Cameron will also enjoy the price freeze for 20 months !
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    Surbiton:

    >>The vast majority of people oppose it being funded out of taxation. That is because it will then be subject to diktat from the ruling party.

    I'm sure they do, and the worry is valid. But it effectively is anyway.

    The licence fee gives plausible deniability but it is a tax by any reasonable definition.

    The BBC like the NHS is a much revered institution in this country. I can bet that in the event of a national emergency, death of an well known public person, the vast majority of the public will automatically tune in to the BBC - even Tories !

    Even the World Cup final - broadcast over other channels too, two thirds will watch the BBC. That's how it is.

    Much revered "like the NHS"?
    Well Nick Palmer did say up-thread that the BBC was like cancer.


  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @surbiton

    'Even the World Cup final - broadcast over other channels too, two thirds will watch the BBC. That's how it is.'

    So if the BBC is so highly valued,viewers will be delighted to pay for it via subscription.
    Why are you so frightened of giving them a choice?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    Geoff M But key events like the World Cup, Wimbledon, the Open, the Olympics etc will always be cheaper to watch on the BBC than Sky. The BBC also has a remit to provide educational programmes on culture, science and the natural world, heritage and the arts etc

    The World Cup, the Open, Olympics, Premier League Soccer etc are all commercial events, and should sell broadcasting rights to the highest bidder in each market.

    As a public service broadcaster, the BBC should not be spending oodles of taxpayers (or licence payers) money on sporting events, which can be amply covered by other broadcasters such as itv or Sky, none of which use tax payers money to bid for them, instead using their own.

    The BBC remit should be to create programming in areas that commercial broadcasters wouldn't touch. For example the BBC Natural History Unit in Bristol has no peer anywhere else in the world for its programming. It is jaw dropping stuff. Planet Earth, the Blue Planet, Life etc make boatloads of money for the BBC in dvd sales. Ditto period drama. The BBC has no equal in this at present, although that is begining to change.

    - and let's not forget the world's most widely watched factual TV program, (according to the Guinness Book of Records), Top Gear. There is a German version, and Australian version, and even a US version, all of which earn money for auntie. It makes huge amounts of money for the BBC. 5th gear is woeful by comparison. Top Gear is sold in 212 countries and territories.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Surbiton:

    >>The BBC like the NHS is a much revered institution in this country.

    That's the best you've got? Really?

    If it's that revered, people wouldn't have to be forced to pay for it! Ditto of course, the NHS.

    As aways, the underlying thrust of your argument is that if the funding method changes, there will be no BBC. That's simply not true. It would be different, but still there.

    If people really 'revere' it, then they'll be happy to pay for it voluntarily, rather than by coercion and threat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    Geoff M But you have to pay extra for cable even beyond the TV license
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    Tim B While you may have a point with ITV having major sports events on the BBC ensures they are open to all. I agree with your other points on the strength of the BBC's natural history and drama output etc
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    HYUFD said:

    Geoff M But you have to pay extra for cable even beyond the TV license

    Exactly! I have to pay a tax to own a television. And get channels I may or may not wish to watch. Under threat of prosecution and a criminal record.

    I shouldn't pay *extra* for cable at all. That's the *only* thing I should pay.

    I buy a television set. Then I subscribe only to the channels that I wish to watch. Simple.

This discussion has been closed.