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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Scott_P said:
    I remember when Stephen Mangan was funny.....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Scott_P said:
    Osborne spent five years in a government and several years before that in an opposition party that frequently made its disdain for the EU and EU immigrants absolutely plain. His crocodile tears now are a bit puke-making to be honest.
    Whilst I'm on the opposite side of the Brexit debate to you, on this you are correct. A big reason why we are where we are is that politicians constantly lied about what we thought on issues such as immigration.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    edited January 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, there was a vote yesterday to renegotiate the backstop.

    https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1090632987761356800
    LOL. There is some real bullshit in that article. Apparently they think we would be in breach of international law for failing to abide by a treaty which we ourselves had not ratified.

    There are some real dummies out there. And some on here for repeating this rubbish.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    edited January 2019

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Scott_P said:
    Osborne spent five years in a government and several years before that in an opposition party that frequently made its disdain for the EU and EU immigrants absolutely plain. His crocodile tears now are a bit puke-making to be honest.
    It shows the measure of the man.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:
    It would be idiotic to switch up the negotiating team at the stage. You can only deploy someone who’s been involved but not ‘in the room’ at this point
    Hmmm. Some might say it was idiotic to send the guy back in to renegotiate the deal he has spent the past two years negotiating - and which two year effort the House of Commons canned by an historic margin.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable.
    anything involving Wilbur Ross is best avoided
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    RobD said:


    No, she's saying 'Well, since you insist, I'll go back and ask again, maybe I'm wrong and you are right'. It can't be true both that she doesn't listen enough and that her fault is that she has listened.

    She's just wasting time for another two weeks because putting off the moment of reckoning for her party, clinging on to power for another few days, and constructive can-kicking is the sum total of the horizon of her imagination.

    Nothing has changed.
    Come to think of it, you remind me of someone.....
    Yup - me too!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, there was a vote yesterday to renegotiate the backstop.

    https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1090632987761356800
    LOL. There is some real bullshit in that article. Apparently they think we would be in breach of international law for failing to abide by a treaty which we ourselves had not ratified.

    There are some real dummies out there. And some on here for repeating this rubbish.
    I don't really follow the allegations about bribery or an illegal referendum, either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, there was a vote yesterday to renegotiate the backstop.

    https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1090632987761356800
    LOL. There is some real bullshit in that article. Apparently they think we would be in breach of international law for failing to abide by a treaty which we ourselves had not ratified.

    There are some real dummies out there. And some on here for repeating this rubbish.
    Aw, careful now. You're damning Captain ReTweets entire raison d'etre....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    Scott_P said:
    Osborne spent five years in a government and several years before that in an opposition party that frequently made its disdain for the EU and EU immigrants absolutely plain. His crocodile tears now are a bit puke-making to be honest.
    see I told you he was a shit - :-)
    Remember his getting booed at the Olympics?
    Wasn't that about pasties though?
    Just had a quick look around the Internet and didn't seem to be. Gordon Brown was cheered when he presented medals.
    It was the Paralympics, not the Olympics.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, there was a vote yesterday to renegotiate the backstop.

    https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1090632987761356800
    LOL. There is some real bullshit in that article. Apparently they think we would be in breach of international law for failing to abide by a treaty which we ourselves had not ratified.

    There are some real dummies out there. And some on here for repeating this rubbish.
    I don't really follow the allegations about bribery or an illegal referendum, either.
    what did you expect ?

    edited by the bloke who gave us the dodgy dossier
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    We agreed to a backstop in December 2017. Now the PM who agreed it is going back on her word with 58 days to go. Yeah - I’d describe that as perfidious.

    We are not standing up for ourselves. We are making ourselves look ridiculous.

    There I would strongly disagree. She's not going back on her word - quite the opposite, she's been pushing like hell to get the deal through. Unfortunately parliament in its wisdom has decided to exercise its sovereignty by sabotaging the agreed deal. It's a bit rich to blame her for that.
    She was pushing for an amendment last night which said that the backstop should be reopened. And the papers are acclaiming this as a triumph for May. To me - and I think to other European leaders, especially the Irish - she, the government she “leads” and Britain look perfidious and untrustworthy and unreliable partners.
    Of course we are untrustworthy and unreliable. That's the inevitable consequence of negotiating a very tricky international agreement with a hung parliament (thanks, voters!) which has multiple different factions pursuing their own political ends and with no majority for anything. How could we be anything other than unreliable?
    I expect there's a fair degree of personal sympathy floating around for Theresa May. There are plenty of other heads of government with nebulous control of their parliaments and governments who will empathise.

    Not that sympathy or empathy will be converted into helpful action. Their own difficulties will make it difficult for them to do anything for her even if they were so inclined, which they aren't.
    The personal sympathy is misplaced. I could be sympathetic if she was merely out of her depth, but she lost me when she delayed the vote. She prefers politicking and tactics to finding genuine consensus. She engages in fear and dangerous brinkmanship. She offers no creativity or imagination.

    In short, she is the problem.
    + 1.

    And she is not straight with people, either.
    To be fair, the opposition's no help. If she'd been facing a Foot, Healy, Blair or Cook she'd have been in a lot more trouble. Or even a Jeremy Thorpe or Charlie Kennedy.
    I guess one of them might have put a gun to her head......
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Scott_P said:
    Your party is utterly split.

    So is yours.

    No its not.

    Yes, it is.

    I had a song at Glastonbury.

    I'm still the PM though.

    [exit stage left]
    LOL. 🙃
  • Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

  • Sean_F said:


    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    ACTA fell apart because the the corporate interests behind the US's negotiating position grew furious with the EU for refusing to water down food quality, animal welfare, environmental and social protections. For refusing to exempt US companies for flagrantly violating the privacy of EU citizens. And for refusing to allow private US companies to run healthcare services in Europe.

    The US demanded all of those things, and the EU said NO. Thank christ.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

    'Any trade deal'? Surely that must be unquestionably incorrect?

    Also there are other available views!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

    'Any trade deal'? Surely that must be unquestionably incorrect?

    Also there are other available views!
    There is probably no UK-US trade deal that could gain agreement by both the Commons and Congress.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Only in the mind of headbangers like you. So your's is the bovine excrement. Norway and Switzerland are not "in" the EU. Such an arrangement would easily meet the vagueness of the referendum question. Nut jobs, and Mrs May in her haste to please them, have tried to say that the referendum said things it did not. There was no supplementary question about the single market or CU. It was Leave or Remain, in the EU. That was all. Perhaps you should advocate another referendum to see if people also want out of the other things that the liars and charlatans have said that the question included.

    Only if you slept through the referendum.

    All parties in the referendum (Leavers and Remainers) unanimously made the argument that we would leave the Single Market if we left the EU. Remainers said we should remain in the EU to stay in the Single Market as Leaving meant leaving the SM. Leavers said we should leave the EU to control immigration and our laws which meant leaving the SM. The debate was had.

    Name a single person and a single day from either side of the debate during the referendum who said otherwise. Please include a date.
    June 26 2016...
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-boris-idUKKCN0ZC13W
    LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will continue to have access to the European Union’s single market despite voting to leave the bloc, leading Brexit campaigner and favorite to become the country’s next prime minister Boris Johnson said in a newspaper article on Sunday...
    Well done. If you read the link he explicitly says free movement will end (thus leaving the Single Market) and that we will come to a new free trade arrangement.
    So no access to the single market, then. He lied.
    No - he was anticipating an exception on FoM. He was wrong in the same way as JC is wrong when he talks about a new Customs Union which will allow trade agreements. It's what all politicians do all the time.
  • Omnium said:


    'Any trade deal'? Surely that must be unquestionably incorrect?

    Also there are other available views!

    For as long as Northern Ireland exists as part of the UK, it will be practically impossible for the UK to have an "independent trade policy".

    Then again, the person we have drafting our independent trade policy is disgraced former defence secretary and national security risk Liam Fox so maybe that's for the best.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Scott_P said:
    Sums it up perfectly. And it could well end in the destruction of both.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    I'm initiating the DBRI (Daily Betfair Reality Index). It's the sum of implied probabilities for No Deal on 29 March and the Commons passing a deal by 29 March. The closer it is to 100% the closer the betting markets are to reality.

    Today's value: 63%.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

    'Any trade deal'? Surely that must be unquestionably incorrect?

    Also there are other available views!
    There is probably no UK-US trade deal that could gain agreement by both the Commons and Congress.
    yup

    and since we have a positive BoP why would we want to change that especially with the Donald at the helm
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Sean_F said:


    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    ACTA fell apart because the the corporate interests behind the US's negotiating position grew furious with the EU for refusing to water down food quality, animal welfare, environmental and social protections. For refusing to exempt US companies for flagrantly violating the privacy of EU citizens. And for refusing to allow private US companies to run healthcare services in Europe.

    The US demanded all of those things, and the EU said NO. Thank christ.

    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

    I would add that one has to submit to arbitration by panels with 2 out of 3 judges appointed by the US.

    The one potential advantage from a UK/US trade deal would be cheap food. But, we would have to lower animal welfare standards drastically, or else put many of our farmers out of business.

    But, in any case, we already have a huge trade surplus with the US.
  • Scott_P said:
    I voted to Leave but MPs like Mangan don't seem to want to award this to the majority vote.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Scott_P said:
    Sums it up perfectly. And it could well end in the destruction of both.

    What started the cat fight was more unnecessary political integration creating an existential crisis for a jolly worthwhile common market.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    The ending of transition controls on Romania and Bulgaria happened around that time too.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    edited January 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. P, there was a vote yesterday to renegotiate the backstop.

    https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1090632987761356800
    LOL. There is some real bullshit in that article. Apparently they think we would be in breach of international law for failing to abide by a treaty which we ourselves had not ratified.

    There are some real dummies out there. And some on here for repeating this rubbish.
    I don't really follow the allegations about bribery or an illegal referendum, either.
    It's "illegal referendum result" - it doesn't help that it's split over two lines.

    I assume the assertions are:

    1. DUP C&S deal is the 'bribery';
    2. Leave campaign accounting irregularities are the 'illegal referendum result'.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
  • Scott_P said:
    Anonymous briefings do not carry much weight.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Scott_P said:
    Need a joint statement at some point. Question is, was a date made for another meeting?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Anonymous briefings do not carry much weight.

    https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1090643484669890560
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Only in the mind of headbangers like you. So your's is the bovine excrement. Norway and Switzerland are not "in" the EU. Such an arrangement would easily meet the vagueness of the referendum question. Nut jobs, and Mrs May in her haste to please them, have tried to say that the referendum said things it did not. There was no supplementary question about the single market or CU. It was Leave or Remain, in the EU. That was all. Perhaps you should advocate another referendum to see if people also want out of the other things that the liars and charlatans have said that the question included.

    Only if you slept through the referendum.

    All parties in the referendum (Leavers and Remainers) unanimously made the argument that we would leave the Single Market if we left the EU. Remainers said we should remain in the EU to stay in the Single Market as Leaving meant leaving the SM. Leavers said we should leave the EU to control immigration and our laws which meant leaving the SM. The debate was had.

    Name a single person and a single day from either side of the debate during the referendum who said otherwise. Please include a date.
    June 26 2016...
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-boris-idUKKCN0ZC13W
    LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will continue to have access to the European Union’s single market despite voting to leave the bloc, leading Brexit campaigner and favorite to become the country’s next prime minister Boris Johnson said in a newspaper article on Sunday...
    Well done. If you read the link he explicitly says free movement will end (thus leaving the Single Market) and that we will come to a new free trade arrangement.
    So no access to the single market, then. He lied.
    No he didn't. A trade agreement is access to the single market.
  • Scott_P said:
    Indeed. If you want to end that then you need to start talking and fast.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    somewhat surprised at the timing of this

    germans slash economic growth

    Altmaier said he was deeply worried that a British exit from the EU at the end of March would lead to "considerable economic policy distortions." Berlin must do everything in the coming days to help avoid an unregulated Brexit, he added.

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-economic-growth-to-drop-to-1-percent/a-47292722
  • https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1090634963538587653

    I don't think May should waste a Eurostar ticket heading out there.

    She has to - to show she tried and failed due to EU intransigence. The ball is firmly in the EU court. They know the UK Parliament will never agree to the WA.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Scott_P said:
    Need a joint statement at some point. Question is, was a date made for another meeting?
    Sort of. they agreed to hook up and watch Mama Mia here we go again, but didn’t agree when. They got each other’s numbers so how difficult can it be to send a text when on their own?

    “Leaver, looks 60, seeking fellow minded female for brexit fun and games, and maybe more”
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    somewhat surprised at the timing of this

    germans slash economic growth

    Altmaier said he was deeply worried that a British exit from the EU at the end of March would lead to "considerable economic policy distortions." Berlin must do everything in the coming days to help avoid an unregulated Brexit, he added.

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-economic-growth-to-drop-to-1-percent/a-47292722

    No one's economic numbers are very encouraging right now.
  • AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    dots said:

    Scott_P said:
    Need a joint statement at some point. Question is, was a date made for another meeting?
    Sort of. they agreed to hook up and watch Mama Mia here we go again, but didn’t agree when. They got each other’s numbers so how difficult can it be to send a text when on their own?

    “Leaver, looks 60, seeking fellow minded female for brexit fun and games, and maybe more”
    In my experience of getting disparate groups together a firm date for the subsequent meeting is essential. Otherwise there's always some excuse!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    At least it wasn't "I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk."
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    no need to check, my comment was tongue in cheek
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Several schools used it, didn't they. My wife, as a WI member, sings it regularly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    no need to check, my comment was tongue in cheek
    Did wonder! LOL.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Sean_F said:

    somewhat surprised at the timing of this

    germans slash economic growth

    Altmaier said he was deeply worried that a British exit from the EU at the end of March would lead to "considerable economic policy distortions." Berlin must do everything in the coming days to help avoid an unregulated Brexit, he added.

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-economic-growth-to-drop-to-1-percent/a-47292722

    No one's economic numbers are very encouraging right now.
    Absolutely, which always makes me marvel at the little england posting telling me only the UK is in the crapper. atm all major economies have problems they simply differ according to who you are and all governments are struggling to find solutions.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Scott_P said:

    If it's not a pack of lies please provide a source to the original unadulterated quotes in full. Including dates.

    Start here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII

    Wasting your time, Philip Thompson has gone into full Trumpton "Fake News" mode.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    no need to check, my comment was tongue in cheek
    Did wonder! LOL.
    if only the internet did irony :-)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    somewhat surprised at the timing of this

    germans slash economic growth

    Altmaier said he was deeply worried that a British exit from the EU at the end of March would lead to "considerable economic policy distortions." Berlin must do everything in the coming days to help avoid an unregulated Brexit, he added.

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-economic-growth-to-drop-to-1-percent/a-47292722

    Unless they are setting up to blame No Deal Brexit Britain for all of the EU's upcoming woes - woes that were going to happen to the EU anyway. Saves them having to take responsibity with their voters....
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited January 2019

    Scott_P said:
    I voted to Leave but MPs like Mangan don't seem to want to award this to the majority vote.
    Which constituency does he represent?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    somewhat surprised at the timing of this

    germans slash economic growth

    Altmaier said he was deeply worried that a British exit from the EU at the end of March would lead to "considerable economic policy distortions." Berlin must do everything in the coming days to help avoid an unregulated Brexit, he added.

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-economic-growth-to-drop-to-1-percent/a-47292722

    Unless they are setting up to blame No Deal Brexit Britain for all of the EU's upcoming woes - woes that were going to happen to the EU anyway. Saves them having to take responsibity with their voters....
    at least Leo will have something to take his mind off the nurses strike
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    There was probably also caning, spam fritters and casual racism. So what?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
    In the spirit of Malthouse maybe we can come together and agree, despite a single issue visage UKIP came to be home to right of centre protest votes during moments of disagreement with broad range of centre right governments policy, with the indomitable personality of Farage also providing appeal to this voter group?

    Because where you imply austerity stopped bothering voters in 2012 and wasn’t a factor in both 2015 and 2016, I don’t agree with you, but a long winded bitch slap exercise with apparently supporting evidence for each point of view is likely to prove inconclusive.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Cyclefree said:

    It's frightening; the country is on the verge of the greatest change it's ever made and the main issue is how to maintain the unity of the governing party. No doubt Corbyn could have been more forthcoming, but the PM must have some concept of what the other European leaders think. However, it doesn't appear that she does. Or cares.


    We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.

    And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.

    This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
    Could not disagree more.

    We are standing up for ourselves which is exactly what we should do. No other nation is going to stand up for us. The backstop is an entirely unreasonable disgrace. The EU threatening no deal at all immediately because of something designed to prevent the potential risk of no deal years from now is entirely illogical.

    The only reason ever given as to why the UK should sign up to the backstop is because we are weak and more desperate than they are. To refuse that isn't perfidiousness, it is brave.
    The backstop is there to prevent the issue of the Irish border being used for leverage by any side during the subsequent negotiations, and this primarily benefits the U.K. The Tory party’s rejection of it creates an issue of trust.
    Bullshit. It is there to bind the UK and NI to the Single Market and Customs Union when the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave those.
    Have you thought this through? My first reaction to reading May's deal was to dread the onslaught of leavers gloating about how we'd got everything we wanted at minimal cost. I'm a bit mystified by why so few people are in favour of it - unless blaming the EU is more important to them than actually making a success of leaving it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Only in the mind of headbangers like you. So your's is the bovine excrement. Norway and Switzerland are not "in" the EU. Such an arrangement would easily meet the vagueness of the referendum question. Nut jobs, and Mrs May in her haste to please them, have tried to say that the referendum said things it did not. There was no supplementary question about the single market or CU. It was Leave or Remain, in the EU. That was all. Perhaps you should advocate another referendum to see if people also want out of the other things that the liars and charlatans have said that the question included.

    Only if you slept through the referendum.

    All parties in the referendum (Leavers and Remainers) unanimously made the argument that we would leave the Single Market if we left the EU. Remainers said we should remain in the EU to stay in the Single Market as Leaving meant leaving the SM. Leavers said we should leave the EU to control immigration and our laws which meant leaving the SM. The debate was had.

    Name a single person and a single day from either side of the debate during the referendum who said otherwise. Please include a date.
    June 26 2016...
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-boris-idUKKCN0ZC13W
    LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will continue to have access to the European Union’s single market despite voting to leave the bloc, leading Brexit campaigner and favorite to become the country’s next prime minister Boris Johnson said in a newspaper article on Sunday...
    Well done. If you read the link he explicitly says free movement will end (thus leaving the Single Market) and that we will come to a new free trade arrangement.
    So no access to the single market, then. He lied.
    No - he was anticipating an exception on FoM. He was wrong in the same way as JC is wrong when he talks about a new Customs Union which will allow trade agreements. It's what all politicians do all the time.
    So you’re disagreeing with the redoubtable Philip ?

    I recognise that politicians and parties will adopt positions which are misleading, mutually contradictory, or plain wrong from time to time. To then claim an absolute mandate for one particular position is simply dishonest.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279

    Cyclefree said:

    It's frightening; the country is on the verge of the greatest change it's ever made and the main issue is how to maintain the unity of the governing party. No doubt Corbyn could have been more forthcoming, but the PM must have some concept of what the other European leaders think. However, it doesn't appear that she does. Or cares.


    We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.

    And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.

    This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
    Could not disagree more.

    We are standing up for ourselves which is exactly what we should do. No other nation is going to stand up for us. The backstop is an entirely unreasonable disgrace. The EU threatening no deal at all immediately because of something designed to prevent the potential risk of no deal years from now is entirely illogical.

    The only reason ever given as to why the UK should sign up to the backstop is because we are weak and more desperate than they are. To refuse that isn't perfidiousness, it is brave.
    The backstop is there to prevent the issue of the Irish border being used for leverage by any side during the subsequent negotiations, and this primarily benefits the U.K. The Tory party’s rejection of it creates an issue of trust.
    Bullshit. It is there to bind the UK and NI to the Single Market and Customs Union when the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave those.
    Have you thought this through? My first reaction to reading May's deal was to dread the onslaught of leavers gloating about how we'd got everything we wanted at minimal cost. I'm a bit mystified by why so few people are in favour of it - unless blaming the EU is more important to them than actually making a success of leaving it.
    ‘thought’ is generous...

  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    matt said:

    Scott_P said:
    I voted to Leave but MPs like Mangan don't seem to want to award this to the majority vote.
    Which constituency does he represent?
    Sedgefield! 🙃
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Jerusalem is still our school song.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    dots said:

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
    In the spirit of Malthouse maybe we can come together and agree, despite a single issue visage UKIP came to be home to right of centre protest votes during moments of disagreement with broad range of centre right governments policy, with the indomitable personality of Farage also providing appeal to this voter group?

    Because where you imply austerity stopped bothering voters in 2012 and wasn’t a factor in both 2015 and 2016, I don’t agree with you, but a long winded bitch slap exercise with apparently supporting evidence for each point of view is likely to prove inconclusive.
    That wasn't what I was saying re austerity (as I suspect you know). Austerity bit *hardest* earlier on but obviously was continuing through to 2015 and beyond. However, while I agree with your general points about the reasons for UKIP's rise as a party of the populist protesting right, I don't think the stats fit well with austerity being the main cause - that would imply either a rapid rise early on, or at least a fairly steady one throughout the parliament, not the step change in 2012-13 there actually was.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Cyclefree said:

    It's frightening; the country is on the verge of the greatest change it's ever made and the main issue is how to maintain the unity of the governing party. No doubt Corbyn could have been more forthcoming, but the PM must have some concept of what the other European leaders think. However, it doesn't appear that she does. Or cares.


    We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.

    And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.

    This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
    Could not disagree more.

    We are standing up for ourselves which is exactly what we should do. No other nation is going to stand up for us. The backstop is an entirely unreasonable disgrace. The EU threatening no deal at all immediately because of something designed to prevent the potential risk of no deal years from now is entirely illogical.

    The only reason ever given as to why the UK should sign up to the backstop is because we are weak and more desperate than they are. To refuse that isn't perfidiousness, it is brave.
    The backstop is there to prevent the issue of the Irish border being used for leverage by any side during the subsequent negotiations, and this primarily benefits the U.K. The Tory party’s rejection of it creates an issue of trust.
    Bullshit. It is there to bind the UK and NI to the Single Market and Customs Union when the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave those.
    Have you thought this through? My first reaction to reading May's deal was to dread the onslaught of leavers gloating about how we'd got everything we wanted at minimal cost. I'm a bit mystified by why so few people are in favour of it - unless blaming the EU is more important to them than actually making a success of leaving it.
    I think the WA is okay, but that's very much a minority position.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1090634963538587653

    I don't think May should waste a Eurostar ticket heading out there.

    She has to - to show she tried and failed due to EU intransigence. The ball is firmly in the EU court. They know the UK Parliament will never agree to the WA.
    Are you a robot? You're speaking in soundbites.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,505
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It's frightening; the country is on the verge of the greatest change it's ever made and the main issue is how to maintain the unity of the governing party. No doubt Corbyn could have been more forthcoming, but the PM must have some concept of what the other European leaders think. However, it doesn't appear that she does. Or cares.


    We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.

    And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.

    This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
    Could not disagree more.

    We are standing up for ourselves which is exactly what we should do. No other nation is going to stand up for us. The backstop is an entirely unreasonable disgrace. The EU threatening no deal at all immediately because of something designed to prevent the potential risk of no deal years from now is entirely illogical.

    The only reason ever given as to why the UK should sign up to the backstop is because we are weak and more desperate than they are. To refuse that isn't perfidiousness, it is brave.
    The backstop is there to prevent the issue of the Irish border being used for leverage by any side during the subsequent negotiations, and this primarily benefits the U.K. The Tory party’s rejection of it creates an issue of trust.
    Bullshit. It is there to bind the UK and NI to the Single Market and Customs Union when the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave those.
    Have you thought this through? My first reaction to reading May's deal was to dread the onslaught of leavers gloating about how we'd got everything we wanted at minimal cost. I'm a bit mystified by why so few people are in favour of it - unless blaming the EU is more important to them than actually making a success of leaving it.
    I think the WA is okay, but that's very much a minority position.
    The final sentence of his post has a lot of truth in it.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
    In the spirit of Malthouse maybe we can come together and agree, despite a single issue visage UKIP came to be home to right of centre protest votes during moments of disagreement with broad range of centre right governments policy, with the indomitable personality of Farage also providing appeal to this voter group?

    Because where you imply austerity stopped bothering voters in 2012 and wasn’t a factor in both 2015 and 2016, I don’t agree with you, but a long winded bitch slap exercise with apparently supporting evidence for each point of view is likely to prove inconclusive.
    That wasn't what I was saying re austerity (as I suspect you know). Austerity bit *hardest* earlier on but obviously was continuing through to 2015 and beyond. However, while I agree with your general points about the reasons for UKIP's rise as a party of the populist protesting right, I don't think the stats fit well with austerity being the main cause - that would imply either a rapid rise early on, or at least a fairly steady one throughout the parliament, not the step change in 2012-13 there actually was.
    I think their poll numbers and voters included people who don’t normally vote, and its austerity programme talked up by political elite disconnected from some communities which delivered those.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
    UKIP rose into double figures around the start of 2013 and kept going up through the reset of the year. That coincided with Labour support going backwards from a peak in the Autumn of 2012. The two are I think linked. Through a couple of key decisions, where Miliband prevailed over Balls, Labour compromised its appeal to the populist working class. The first was the decision to hold out against an EU referendum, the second was the decision to support HS2. Both went against popular opinion and it left the door open to UKIP to peel off Labour as well as Conservative support.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    no need to check, my comment was tongue in cheek
    Did wonder! LOL.
    if only the internet did irony :-)
    +1
  • https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1090634963538587653

    I don't think May should waste a Eurostar ticket heading out there.

    She has to - to show she tried and failed due to EU intransigence. The ball is firmly in the EU court. They know the UK Parliament will never agree to the WA.
    For months the EU have been telling us to tell them what we want

    Now we are telling them they do not want to listen

    If they do not show any movement towards TM position,as I keep saying, the Brexiteers mantra to keep the £39 billion will have a lot of traction and the EU will be blamed and attitudes to them will harden

    Not that I think it takes us much further forward
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,505

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.

    I’m of the view that it wasn’t so much gay marriage per say as how Cameron went about it and what that represented.

    The message many social conservatives heard, even in the voluntary party, was: you’re not welcome; go get stuffed and leave.

    So they left.

  • Not that I think it takes us much further forward

    The EU's position on this has been perfectly clear on this. The fact that UK politicians are unwilling or unable to hear is neither here nor there.

    If the UK wants to drop the backstop, then May will have to drop her red lines.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,505

    Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    Oh Buccaneers ...

    "In particular, Richard Neal, the Massachusetts Congressman who was centrally involved in the Good Friday Agreement and is the co-chairman of the Friends of Ireland caucus on Capitol Hill, has recently been appointed as head of the powerful Ways and Means committee. This committee will play a key role in overseeing any future trade agreement between Britain and the United States after Britain leaves the European Union."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

    Robert Smithson has made it very clear that any trade deal with the USA would be very undesirable, from our point of view.

    He is unquestionably correct. Sadly, the Buccaneers are not nearly as smart as he is. But it’s clearly not going to happen now anyway.

    'Any trade deal'? Surely that must be unquestionably incorrect?

    Also there are other available views!
    There is probably no UK-US trade deal that could gain agreement by both the Commons and Congress.
    Indeed.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dadge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Jerusalem is still our school song.
    Jerusalem is a fine socialist anthem.

    Is it the only song claimed by both sides? In the war there was Lili Marlene, of course.
  • Good to see David Cameron is handling retirement well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.
    UKIP rose into double figures around the start of 2013 and kept going up through the reset of the year. That coincided with Labour support going backwards from a peak in the Autumn of 2012. The two are I think linked. Through a couple of key decisions, where Miliband prevailed over Balls, Labour compromised its appeal to the populist working class. The first was the decision to hold out against an EU referendum, the second was the decision to support HS2. Both went against popular opinion and it left the door open to UKIP to peel off Labour as well as Conservative support.
    I went to a UKIP meeting locally in, I think, about 2010. Came out with the firm impression that there were two groups of people there. One group of rather pleasant elderly gentlemen who were harking back to the days of the League of Empire Loyalists and another group who were out and out anti-immigrant and in particular BAME immigrants.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    edited January 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Indeed. If you want to end that then you need to start talking and fast.
    These foreigners still don't seem to be showing any sign of realising we've got them over a barrel, do they?

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Dadge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Jerusalem is still our school song.
    Jerusalem is a fine socialist anthem.
    William Blake as the patron saint of UKIP is certainly a funny thought.
  • Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It's frightening; the country is on the verge of the greatest change it's ever made and the main issue is how to maintain the unity of the governing party. No doubt Corbyn could have been more forthcoming, but the PM must have some concept of what the other European leaders think. However, it doesn't appear that she does. Or cares.


    We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.

    And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.

    This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
    Could not disagree more.

    We are standing up for ourselves which is exactly what we should do. No other nation is going to stand up for us. The backstop is an entirely unreasonable disgrace. The EU threatening no deal at all immediately because of something designed to prevent the potential risk of no deal years from now is entirely illogical.

    The only reason ever given as to why the UK should sign up to the backstop is because we are weak and more desperate than they are. To refuse that isn't perfidiousness, it is brave.
    The backstop is there to prevent the issue of the Irish border being used for leverage by any side during the subsequent negotiations, and this primarily benefits the U.K. The Tory party’s rejection of it creates an issue of trust.
    Bullshit. It is there to bind the UK and NI to the Single Market and Customs Union when the vote to leave the EU was a vote to leave those.
    Have you thought this through? My first reaction to reading May's deal was to dread the onslaught of leavers gloating about how we'd got everything we wanted at minimal cost. I'm a bit mystified by why so few people are in favour of it - unless blaming the EU is more important to them than actually making a success of leaving it.
    I think the WA is okay, but that's very much a minority position.
    Not amongst the other EU 27.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615


    Not that I think it takes us much further forward

    The EU's position on this has been perfectly clear on this. The fact that UK politicians are unwilling or unable to hear is neither here nor there.

    If the UK wants to drop the backstop, then May will have to drop her red lines.

    Nonsense Gyp. The ball is quite clearly over the net and back in the EUs court. Their denial that the ball is in their court and they have to play a shot is hysterical to watch, its pure Chaplin. It takes it forward perfectly for May as all future votes take place against this patriotic us v them backdrop.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    dots said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    UKIP prospered as austerity bit
    I don't think that's really borne out by the stats. UKIP's share drifted up only from 3 to 5% between 2010 and early 2012. The omnishambles budget then pushed it up to around 7-8% for most of the rest of 2012 and then there was another boost at the end of the year, coincident with the gay marriage legislation being announced, raising them into double-digits and onto a rapid upwards trajectory that peaked around May 2013 at about 15%.

    Clearly, there were several things that fed into that increase over three years from 3% to 15% but the worst of austerity was at the beginning. By the time UKIP's share peaked, unemployment was falling and the economy was growing, albeit that real wages were still being squeezed.

    I’m of the view that it wasn’t so much gay marriage per say as how Cameron went about it and what that represented.

    The message many social conservatives heard, even in the voluntary party, was: you’re not welcome; go get stuffed and leave.

    So they left.
    Of course, it never is gay marriage per se that people object to ...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501

    Dadge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Jerusalem is still our school song.
    Jerusalem is a fine socialist anthem.

    Is it the only song claimed by both sides? In the war there was Lili Marlene, of course.
    When learning German in the early 50's we had to sing, and translate, Lilli Marlene. I'm not sure that the teacher grasped the significance of what Lilli was actually there for though.

    This morning, listening to a podcast, there was a jazz version of the Red Flag. Same tune of course as O Tannenbaum, a German Christmas Song.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,505
    edited January 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Osborne spent five years in a government and several years before that in an opposition party that frequently made its disdain for the EU and EU immigrants absolutely plain. His crocodile tears now are a bit puke-making to be honest.
    It shows the measure of the man.
    Probably my biggest issue with George Osborne is his arrogance. He thinks he's much cleverer than everyone else, that no-one will notice what he's really up to and, if they do, they can be manipulated accordingly to fall in with his real agenda. If not, he's remarkably vindictive.

    The trouble for him is he's not nearly as good at that as he thinks he is. Almost all of us have sussed him out and that he'd sell out his own mother to advance his interests, and he's not to be trusted.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Chris said:

    Dadge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    Jerusalem is still our school song.
    Jerusalem is a fine socialist anthem.
    William Blake as the patron saint of UKIP is certainly a funny thought.
    The NAZI party as owner of futhorcs is a sad one. But once appropriated from the original meaning or an authors intent, things cannot be reclaimed.
  • matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    There was probably also caning, spam fritters and casual racism. So what?
    Jerusalem is not an anti EU song.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Does anyone know the name of the lady sitting to corbyn's left in the above photo and what her function is other than sitting next to Corbyn?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    There was probably also caning, spam fritters and casual racism. So what?
    Jerusalem is not an anti EU song.
    Jerusalem certainly no longer belongs to the writer of the words. His meaning is gone. That’s how the world works.

  • Probably my biggest issue with George Osborne is his arrogance. He thinks he's much cleverer than everyone else, that no-one will notice what he's really up to and, if they do, they can be manipulated accordingly to fall in with his real agenda. If not, he's remarkably vindictive.

    He's a messy bitch and shit-stirrer. Also, he dislikes Theresa May and has a handy organ with which to repeatedly slap her.

    Also, London is deep red territory. The Standard's editor in chief has very little to lose from being mean to the Tories. And he clearly enjoys it.

    Don't begrudge a man his hobby.
  • dots said:

    matt said:

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.

    Jerusalem was our school song - before we joined the EEC.

    There was probably also caning, spam fritters and casual racism. So what?
    Jerusalem is not an anti EU song.
    Jerusalem certainly no longer belongs to the writer of the words. His meaning is gone. That’s how the world works.
    Just reads like Blake had been hitting the tincture of laudnum a bit too hard the day he wrote it. Which is probably true.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,157
    edited January 2019
    Roger said:

    Does anyone know the name of the lady sitting to corbyn's left in the above photo and what her function is other than sitting next to Corbyn?

    Rebecca Long Bailey - Shadow Secretary for business etc
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,501
    Totally O\t but extraordinary statement in the Guardian; the former auditor of the collapsed cake chain Patisserie Valerie has argued that it is not the role of accountants to uncover fraud.

    Surely it's their duty to establish that the accounts are a true and correct record etc.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Roger said:

    Does anyone know the name of the lady sitting to corbyn's left in the above photo and what her function is other than sitting next to Corbyn?

    Everybody needs a Heinrich Himmler
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    AndyJS said:

    Strange to think the decision to sell dodgy mortgages to people who couldn't afford them has probably resulted in the UK leaving the EU 10 years later. Who could have predicted that chain of events?

    It was probably more gay marriage. That was what spiked UKIP's vote share in the early part of this decade.
    Farage was always an English nationalist. Even in his trader days he was known for it. Used to make new team members sing Jerusalem, if my information is correct.
    if he made them sing Ingerland Ingerland Ingerland you might have a point.
    No, definitely Jerusalem. I'll check with source if you like. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Dulwich College is rugby, not soccer.
    no need to check, my comment was tongue in cheek
    Did wonder! LOL.
    if only the internet did irony :-)
    +1
    The ironic thing is that Nigel Farage has been the subject of persistent questions about his early choice in songs:

    https://www.newsweek.com/nigel-farages-fascist-neo-nazi-past-exposed-former-school-friend-489691
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Roger said:

    Does anyone know the name of the lady sitting to corbyn's left in the above photo and what her function is other than sitting next to Corbyn?

    Rebecca Long Bailey - Shadow Secretary for business etc
    You answered the question perfectly old boy. if Roger doesn’t like the answer he needs to look at his own question.
This discussion has been closed.