Not the best episode but there were two points I noticed. Laura k thinks that Conservative MP's opposition to TMay's deal is softening. Also Katya Adler thinks that the attitude of a couple of EU countries has shifted against agreeing to an A50 extension should one be requested by Britain.
Feels odd that they would be less inclined to agree an extension, given they would presumably only agree on in the event of something like a referendum with remain as an option rather than just we would like more time, but anything that helps narrow down the options so MPs make a decision would be good. Though MPs on both sides officially at least don't believe the EU about renegotiation, so presumably would not believe that they would refuse an extension either.
This is very odd. Why can't they just tell everyone to get indoors and then shoot the fucker down. Gatwick is losing millions and its reputation is worsening (if that's possible). 100,000 people are stuck. WTF. Shoot It Down. If it shatters a greenhouse who cares.
Presumably if they can get close enough to shoot it, they could follow it (police helicopter, or another drone) to find the perp.
Suggests to me there are multiple throwaway drones.
Good point. Even more worrying.
Who the F would do this? And why? I've heard climate change fanatics being blamed, but anyone with a brain would know that this would just make people VERY VERY angry. Terrible for the cause.
Conclusion, this is either a nutter, or some terror organisation being surprisingly subtle and clever. Not encouraging.
If it were climate campaigners, I would have expected some publicity as to the reason, even if anonymously.
Quite possibly just a lone looney motivated by spite, but who really knows.
You'd have to be quite a disciplined climate idealist to do this without publicity but it would actually be a sensible strategy. I mean, you know that people will get very very angry, but what if they don't know it's you? Close down Gatwick for a few days. Then next week go and do another airport. Say you can close down 1% of air traffic at any given time, without warning. The media will amplify that to make it sound like it's happening to everyone, all the time.
That makes air travel *much* more unpopular - why fly short-haul when you can avoid all this disruption by jumping on the Eurostar?
I'm starting to wonder if the drones are a collective delusion. Such incidents are not unknown. It does seem bizarre that the authorities have made so little progress on identifying the drones and in tracing their flightpaths and origin. Where's Derren Brown this week?
I'm starting to wonder if the drones are a collective delusion. Such incidents are not unknown. It does seem bizarre that the authorities have made so little progress on identifying the drones and in tracing their flightpaths and origin. Where's Derren Brown this week?
Because its really hard to hit it with small arms even when hovvering. The blunt force with firearms is to just load thousands of rounds up there which then leads to what happens to all the rounds that miss. I believe you hung about Beirut. Shooting a lot in the air, not always so clever.
Missiles = debris, large calibre AA weapons...not sure we have any.
In another country, sure just let rip, but this is Britain and clipboards and hi vis vests have big influence on actions.
The Israelis shoot down similar contraptions all the time with the M230 gun on their AH-64 Seraphs. If somebody could get the Army Air Corps out of the pub even those ten thumbed fuckwits could shoot this down with an Apache or even a Lynx with a nutter on the door gun. It's lack of will not lack of capacity that's preventing a hard kill.
Just been in the pub talking about this.
1. Why can’t a decent helicopter gunship just shoot the two drones down?
2. How can these things stay in the air so long? My mate reckons there must be at least seven drones to keep a constant air presence (even military grade drones only have a battery life of two hours)
The sightings are fairly well spaced apart - there is a suggestion that whenever they went to reopen the runway, one would appear, and the forums are wondering whether whoever it is has an airband receiver and is listening in. Or it's a coincidence, of course.
Britain is governed by a self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise. This chumocracy has finally met its Waterloo.
The Tories are in turmoil not just because they are divided, but because the various candidates are inadequate.
[The] new political class...is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise....
Many Britons despair that they face a choice between Brexit and chaos under the Tories and socialism and chaos under Labour. If next year goes as badly as this one, they may end up with both.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
At the same time, the political class has abandoned one of the virtues of the old establishment. The old ruling class preserved a degree of gentlemanly self-restraint. Senior politicians left office to cultivate their gardens and open village fetes. The new political class, by contrast, is devoid of self-restraint, precisely because it thinks it owes its position to personal merit rather than the luck of birth. Thus meritocracy morphs into crony capitalism. Tony Blair has amassed a fortune since leaving office and George Osborne, Mr Cameron’s former chancellor of the exchequer, is following eagerly in his footsteps.
It has Corbyn not as a member of this Elite but as a consequence of its failure.
This thesis is similar to that developed in the book (just in time for Christmas!) Bluffocracy. The UK establishment has signed up to the cult of winging it, of pretending to hold all the aces when you actually hold a pair of twos. It prizes ‘transferable skills’, rewarding the general over the specific –- and yet across the country we struggle to hire doctors, engineers, coders and more. https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/bluffocracy
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
Inasmuch as anyone can be in such a loosely used term, yes he is. The man has been a member of parliament for over 30 years, he is establishment to his core, being backbench and unconventional doesn't change that as his connections, experiences, understandings and colleagues are steeped in elite institutions, aims and outcomes. It's just that the establishment elite does not always agree so he is part of it even though he does not the same exact goals as, say, David Cameron.
Because its really hard to hit it with small arms even when hovvering. The blunt force with firearms is to just load thousands of rounds up there which then leads to what happens to all the rounds that miss. I believe you hung about Beirut. Shooting a lot in the air, not always so clever.
Missiles = debris, large calibre AA weapons...not sure we have any.
In another country, sure just let rip, but this is Britain and clipboards and hi vis vests have big influence on actions.
The Israelis shoot down similar contraptions all the time with the M230 gun on their AH-64 Seraphs. If somebody could get the Army Air Corps out of the pub even those ten thumbed fuckwits could shoot this down with an Apache or even a Lynx with a nutter on the door gun. It's lack of will not lack of capacity that's preventing a hard kill.
Just been in the pub talking about this.
1. Why can’t a decent helicopter gunship just shoot the two drones down?
2. How can these things stay in the air so long? My mate reckons there must be at least seven drones to keep a constant air presence (even military grade drones only have a battery life of two hours)
The sightings are fairly well spaced apart - there is a suggestion that whenever they went to reopen the runway, one would appear, and the forums are wondering whether whoever it is has an airband receiver and is listening in. Or it's a coincidence, of course.
It's an ill wind. One of my sons is involved with a company making anti-drone technology and it's likely they're about to land a decent order.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from u
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Good points. Of course, after WWII pretty well all male politicians up until the early 70's had been in the Services, apart from Wilson, who had been a Civil Servant in a reserved occupation, and Foot, who to his annoyance, I understand, found himself medically unfit. Bevan hadn't, but he'd been a miner. Heseltine famously got himself out of National Service early by standing for Parliament, but otherwise men born before 1939 or so would have done, or been liable for, National Service, and being born before about 1936 would have meant they couldn't avoid it by being at Uni. Blair of course was the deposit-losing Labour candidate in Beaconsfield by-election in1982, when the Labour vote was almost halved.
At least the drones show us that we are well prepared for a No Deal Brexit!
And so shall false flag conspiracies begin this day. Awfully convenient something that demonstrates small things can cause great disruption should occur just as people warn of great disruptions to come. Separately, Stodge will be along to complain about the usual suspects ovethyping the chaos at Gatwick.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
A near wipeout is what both major parties need. If only everyone would make their New Year Resolution not to vote Tory or Labour. It's what they both deserve.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
A near wipeout is what both major parties need. If only everyone would make their New Year Resolution not to vote Tory or Labour. It's what they both deserve.
Though I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now.
Because its really hard to hit it with small arms even when hovvering. The blunt force with firearms is to just load thousands of rounds up there which then leads to what happens to all the rounds that miss. I believe you hung about Beirut. Shooting a lot in the air, not always so clever.
Missiles = debris, large calibre AA weapons...not sure we have any.
In another country, sure just let rip, but this is Britain and clipboards and hi vis vests have big influence on actions.
The Israelis shoot down similar contraptions all the time with the M230 gun on their AH-64 Seraphs. If somebody could get the Army Air Corps out of the pub even those ten thumbed fuckwits could shoot this down with an Apache or even a Lynx with a nutter on the door gun. It's lack of will not lack of capacity that's preventing a hard kill.
Just been in the pub talking about this.
1. Why can’t a decent helicopter gunship just shoot the two drones down?
2. How can these things stay in the air so long? My mate reckons there must be at least seven drones to keep a constant air presence (even military grade drones only have a battery life of two hours)
The sightings are fairly well spaced apart - there is a suggestion that whenever they went to reopen the runway, one would appear, and the forums are wondering whether whoever it is has an airband receiver and is listening in. Or it's a coincidence, of course.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From s).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
A near wipeout is what both major parties need. If only everyone would make their New Year Resolution not to vote Tory or Labour. It's what they both deserve.
Though I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now.
Doesn't matter. Vote Green, LibDem, Nationalist, Independent, or people might have three types of UKIP to choose from. In extremis, stand and vote for yourself. Just don't vote Tory or Labour and make our politics more grown up (OK, UKIP might struggle with that last, but still)!
At least the drones show us that we are well prepared for a No Deal Brexit!
We live now in an interconnected world. I see on Flight Tracker that planes are now taking off again.
But if they don't find the culprits the whole thing could start again any time once they've recharged all their batteries. At gatwick or any other airport. Hopefully they can come up with a fast response solution that could be implemented anywhere at short notice, because even if they catch this lot other malicious groups will have seen the disruption and could replicate with little difficulty.
At least the drones show us that we are well prepared for a No Deal Brexit!
And so shall false flag conspiracies begin this day. Awfully convenient something that demonstrates small things can cause great disruption should occur just as people warn of great disruptions to come. Separately, Stodge will be along to complain about the usual suspects ovethyping the chaos at Gatwick.
As I've noted passim, the thing that concerns me about Brexit aren't the big ticket items that we're all talking about - things like flights and freight. It's the small-ticket items that people aren't thinking about much, but will cause significant problems if they suddenly stop working.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
.
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
A near wipeout is what both major parties need. If only everyone would make their New Year Resolution not to vote Tory or Labour. It's what they both deserve.
Though I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now.
It's the Greens view on medical experimentation on animals that puts me off. I owe my longevity to animal experimentation in the 60's and 70's, and I would feel hypocritical voting for a party so opposed. I also understand that, at the moment at any rate, there is no other practical way of making safe medicine. I'd be delighted to hear, of course, that that is no longer the case.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
.
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Yes, failure and ones response to it are great moulders of character. Attlee experienced firsthand the fiasco of Gallipoli and the near wipeout of the Labour party in the 1931 election.
A near wipeout is what both major parties need. If only everyone would make their New Year Resolution not to vote Tory or Labour. It's what they both deserve.
Though I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now.
It's the Greens view on medical experimentation on animals that puts me off. I owe my longevity to animal experimentation in the 60's and 70's, and I would feel hypocritical voting for a party so opposed. I also understand that, at the moment at any rate, there is no other practical way of making safe medicine. I'd be delighted to hear, of course, that that is no longer the case.
Well, no party is perfect and I disagree with elements of all parties programmes, though there are elements in all that I like too even some in UKIP.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
Wasn't it ever so? Thatcher, Heath, Wilson, Attlee, Foot all had only very brief careers before politics.
I am not convinced that Trump is a great advert for non-carrer politicians either, though perhaps Dr Wollaston is.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
Wasn't it ever so? Thatcher, Heath, Wilson, Attlee, Foot all had only very brief careers before politics.
I am not convinced that Trump is a great advert for non-carrer politicians either, though perhaps Dr Wollaston is.
Certainly most MPs if they want to get to the top in politics tend to have been elected by 50 and most people will not reach the top of their careers until about that age
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
Wasn't it ever so? Thatcher, Heath, Wilson, Attlee, Foot all had only very brief careers before politics.
I am not convinced that Trump is a great advert for non-carrer politicians either, though perhaps Dr Wollaston is.
Heath was, of course, in the Army during WWII and, IIRC, saw active service in Normandy. As someone else pointed out upthread, Attlee was at Gallipoli.
On topic sort of, I do enjoy how a certain type of MP finds god once they’ve been caught with their hand in the till. Aitken, Duncan-Smith and now Fiona XXX. They can’t stop taking the public for fools.
My little 'uns school received several threats. Fortunately sane heads prevailed; they did searches but did not close the school, and sent a letter home in the evening with the children to say what had happened.
He should have got more than three years IMO, especially given the fact he committed more offences whilst on bail.
Not the best episode but there were two points I noticed. Laura k thinks that Conservative MP's opposition to TMay's deal is softening. Also Katya Adler thinks that the attitude of a couple of EU countries has shifted against agreeing to an A50 extension should one be requested by Britain.
Feels odd that they would be less inclined to agree an extension, given they would presumably only agree on in the event of something like a referendum with remain as an option rather than just we would like more time, but anything that helps narrow down the options so MPs make a decision would be good. Though MPs on both sides officially at least don't believe the EU about renegotiation, so presumably would not believe that they would refuse an extension either.
I suppose the EU might grant a one-month extension just to convince them they'd have to make a decision.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
Yes, but in other contexts we grumble when our MPs don't master their briefs, understand the complex pros and cons of different policies, realise why apparently attractive "solutions" haven't already been implemented, and so on. I think there's quite a good case for professional politicians who are forced by their jobs to understand a huge range of problems in ordinary life, rather than amateur politicans (cf. Trump) who have experienced a particular kind of everyday life and suddenly find themselves having to weigh up the virtues of Universal Credit.
Frankly none of us have experienced more than a fraction of everyday life anyway. I'm strong in some areas - worked in senior industry management, ran successful private businesses, lived in 6 countries and visited 25, been in the benefits system, and had various personal challenges that I won't go into here. I have zero experience of fighting, parenting, working in a shop, fishing, or the City. Others will have a totally different pattern. The key is surely an ability and willingness to understand other people's situation, not an expectation that you've done it all.
I don't claim to have been particularly successful (though I wasn't a bad constituency MP), but the same applies to many who are. For example, my local MP is Jeremy Hunt. I don't share his politics and I've never met him. But local people, including Labour voters, think he's not bad at understanding their issues, even though I'd be surprised to learn if he's ever been on the dole or slept rough. Conversely, I knew Tories in Islington who wouldn't have dreamed of voting Labour except for Corbyn as their local MP, because he'd really put himself out to help them personally and they felt he understood them in a way they'd not expected.
Have we done Mattis yet? Even the densest of the Buccaneers must have shed their delusions about Trump now.
While liberals may detest his foreign policy, by withdrawing US forces from Syria and halving them in Afghanistan Trump confirms he is the most isolationist US President since WW2, Mattis resigned because of Trump's unwillingness to project US military power abroad and really take on the likes of Putin in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. It is no secret the likes of George Galloway preferred Trump to Hillary Clinton at the last US Presidential election.
Instead Trump is waging an economic war against the likes of China and the EU on trade and a war on illegal immigration from Mexico
The media sensationalise things to get sales, clicks or push their preferred political narrative. They don't often tell complete lies but when they have an angle to push they intentionally write things in a way that is incredibly misleading.
For all the complaints about politicians I think it is the media that largely helps shape our politics and they are the ones who shoulder a lot of the blame for the problems we have.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
By equating it with a professional career, aren't you exemplifying the problem? Instead of electing our representatives from among us, reflecting those of experience, wisdom and achievement in diverse walks of life within our communities, we have people who see 'politics' as something you can study and then do full time from the age of 21.
Wasn't it ever so? Thatcher, Heath, Wilson, Attlee, Foot all had only very brief careers before politics.
I am not convinced that Trump is a great advert for non-carrer politicians either, though perhaps Dr Wollaston is.
Maybe it's the growing deficiency of people with real-life experience of, say, business management or union) or health as in Dr W's case that's the problem, rather than the excess of highly trained SpAds per se?
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
To a professional politician failure is losing an election.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
There were big, near general, strikes in this period - eg miners, railways, and things were very serious for Asquith and Lloyd George for a while. Troops were involved in some cases.
Not sure about Tories fomenting any of this, though, they represented the owners who didn't want to pay minimum wages.
On topic sort of, I do enjoy how a certain type of MP finds god once they’ve been caught with their hand in the till. Aitken, Duncan-Smith and now Fiona XXX. They can’t stop taking the public for fools.
Ms Onasanya has been a long term church attender.
Actually this is the one area that I cut her a bit of slack. In my experience many of those brought up in the African Christian culture have a much more direct and daily link between their lives and the bible than modern CofE attenders would make. I can easily imagine that these references seemed normal to her and she was merely indicating her scriptural guidance rather than making claims to sanctity.
Still tin-eared for a politician in modern Britain, mind.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
There were big, near general, strikes in this period - eg miners, railways, and things were very serious for Asquith and Lloyd George for a while. Troops were involved in some cases.
Not sure about Tories fomenting any of this, though, they represented the owners who didn't want to pay minimum wages.
No doubt I'll be corrected shortly. :-)
He was referring to Northern Ireland and the Ulster Volunteers, who were supported by the Unionists including Bonar Law, who said he would support them in any lengths they went to. Joynson-Hicks told Asquith 'Fire if you dare! Fire and be damned!' Carson signed a covenant pledging armed resistance to Home Rule.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
She compared her suffering to that that of others including Jesus, she implied she had been wrongfully declared guilty just like they did. I’m not sure she could have expected a different headline.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
At least 'not discouraged' by theTories, though. And passions were running so high that the Ulster Covenant was, in some cases, signd by the signatories own blood.
"Although I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now. "
As the owner of solar panels, I've been accused of being Green too. A slur I deny. As I'm sixty- nine next month, living in a cave and surviving on grass isn't my idea of fun, and managing without medicine because those cute rats have been experimented on might well curtail my life-span.
They do have some sensible ideas. Dependence on fossil fuels, especially if they're controlled by unfriendly nations, was never a good idea,
You might be able to work out what their views are on air travel. The younger ones like to tie themselves to railings to stop it. Wasn't Gatwick the last target? Just saying.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
I checked iPlayer and Portillo definitely says that the Conservatives threatened to "participate in an armed rebellion against the crown" - it's at about 19:30 minutes in. Is he wrong?
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
At least 'not discouraged' by theTories, though. And passions were running so high that the Ulster Covenant was, in some cases, signd by the signatories own blood.
They had nothing to do with it though, so it's a bad example. A more pertinent example would however be their threat to veto the Mutiny Act, which would have disbanded the army - in 1913...
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
I checked iPlayer and Portillo definitely says that the Conservatives threatened to "participate in an armed rebellion against the crown" - it's at about 19:30 minutes in. Is he wrong?
No, as I noted, but Curragh is a separate issue. Please see the other comments.
It’s quite clear she is talking about drones been used to dump contraband in prison. Patrol dogs can be trained to bark when they hear the noise of a drone, and prevent the contraband from getting into the hands of the prisoners . Trying to imply that she is saying barking dogs would stop drones at an airport is pretty c**tish.
Its just like the comment further upthread that suggested the Black MP done for trying to avoid a speeding ticket had "compared herself to Jesus". A complete misrepresentation of what she actually said.. Its so like the Sun or the Daily Mail.
I agree, the right wing press have absolutely hammered her. For example, one of them headlined the report 'Labour MP compares herself to Jesus.' Typical Fascism:
She compared her suffering to that that of others including Jesus, she implied she had been wrongfully declared guilty just like they did. I’m not sure she could have expected a different headline.
I don't have a problem with professional politicians. My problem is that they are by and large pretty poor at the job.
Surely a reflection on the Labour party that their vetting process was so abject.
A reflection on how they will govern surely ?
iirc there was no local selection, vetting, interviews etc etc for the 2017 GE for last minute seats. The NEC did it all from London, which these days means they just drew up a list of Momentum supporters.
Incidentally, on TW last night Portillo compared the current turmoil to the 1912-14 period when he said that the then Conservative opposition came close to fomenting armed rebellion against the government, stopped only by WW1. I thought my history was pretty good but this isn't a period I have studied - I am sure someone on here knows more: is Portillo's summary accurate and anyone care to recommend a good book?
The Curragh Mutiny, which is arguably responsible for the current situation in N. Ireland.
That wasn't the Tories, that was the army and a massive cock-up by Seeley, who had formerly been a Tory, true, but was primarily an idiot.
I've never really understood what the "elite" is. Is Jeremy Corbyn the elite?
From the Economist link: the new political class has preserved many of the failures of the old establishment. It is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise, selecting those trained in blaggers’ subjects like PPE and slippery professions like public relations and journalism (Mr Cameron worked in PR before going into politics, whereas Mr Gove and Mr Johnson, along with his brother, another Tory MP, were hacks).
I seem to recall looking into this problem in the run-up to the 2015 election, and discovering that Cameron, EdM and Clegg had all spent virtually all of their adult lives working in politics, media and PR. One could call such a situation the ultimate triumph of style over substance. It's small wonder that our pitiful excuse for a national leadership seems incapable of doing anything but lurch from one mishap to the next.
Not quite 't'was ever thus' but I don't think Blair or Howard had much of a back story before politics. Both were lawyers. IDS had been around a bit more, but you wouldn't call him a success. Going further back, of course Attlee was a solicitor and local councillor and Churchill a professional politician and journalist.
More importantly, Churchill had essentially been a soldier, a POW and an escapee. He had also had that most important of things in life: he had experienced failure on a couple of occasions (e.g. losing in Oldham in 1899).
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
To a professional politician failure is losing an election.
Not the best episode but there were two points I noticed. Laura k thinks that Conservative MP's opposition to TMay's deal is softening. Also Katya Adler thinks that the attitude of a couple of EU countries has shifted against agreeing to an A50 extension should one be requested by Britain.
Feels odd that they would be less inclined to agree an extension, given they would presumably only agree on in the event of something like a referendum with remain as an option rather than just we would like more time, but anything that helps narrow down the options so MPs make a decision would be good. Though MPs on both sides officially at least don't believe the EU about renegotiation, so presumably would not believe that they would refuse an extension either.
I know it sounds counter-intuitive but if I have understood Dr Adler correctly a couple of EU countries have decided that, on balance, it is not in their particular long term interest for us to remain. So would be reluctant to give an extension for another remain referendum.
"Although I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now. "
As the owner of solar panels, I've been accused of being Green too. A slur I deny. As I'm sixty- nine next month, living in a cave and surviving on grass isn't my idea of fun, and managing without medicine because those cute rats have been experimented on might well curtail my life-span.
They do have some sensible ideas. Dependence on fossil fuels, especially if they're controlled by unfriendly nations, was never a good idea,
You might be able to work out what their views are on air travel. The younger ones like to tie themselves to railings to stop it. Wasn't Gatwick the last target? Just saying.
My own experience of animal testing is that much of it is pointless and unreliable. I wouldn't ban it completely though, as it seems no less valid to experiment on animals as to eat them or wear their skins. I am not vegan, but do try to minimise my impact on the animal world. I prefer to live simply. I fly much less than I used to, and have made a conscious effort to consume less as I get older. I have too much stuff and don't want any more.
Comments
That makes air travel *much* more unpopular - why fly short-haul when you can avoid all this disruption by jumping on the Eurostar?
OK, no plan is perfect.
you might want to move to Scotland mate
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/20/scottish-nhs-chief-people-would-die-didnt-pay-locum-nearly-500000/
https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/1075853834134712320
The elite that failed
Britain’s political crisis exposes the inadequacy of its leaders"
https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/12/22/the-elite-that-failed
Labour MP compares herself to Jesus after penalty points conviction
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-likens-her-conviction-to-that-of-biblical-figures
The Tories are in turmoil not just because they are divided, but because the various candidates are inadequate.
[The] new political class...is introverted and self-regarding, sending its members straight from university to jobs in the Westminster village, where they marry others of their kind. It relies on bluff rather than expertise....
Many Britons despair that they face a choice between Brexit and chaos under the Tories and socialism and chaos under Labour. If next year goes as badly as this one, they may end up with both.
At the same time, the political class has abandoned one of the virtues of the old establishment. The old ruling class preserved a degree of gentlemanly self-restraint. Senior politicians left office to cultivate their gardens and open village fetes. The new political class, by contrast, is devoid of self-restraint, precisely because it thinks it owes its position to personal merit rather than the luck of birth. Thus meritocracy morphs into crony capitalism. Tony Blair has amassed a fortune since leaving office and George Osborne, Mr Cameron’s former chancellor of the exchequer, is following eagerly in his footsteps.
It has Corbyn not as a member of this Elite but as a consequence of its failure.
This thesis is similar to that developed in the book (just in time for Christmas!) Bluffocracy.
The UK establishment has signed up to the cult of winging it, of pretending to hold all the aces when you actually hold a pair of twos. It prizes ‘transferable skills’, rewarding the general over the specific –- and yet across the country we struggle to hire doctors, engineers, coders and more.
https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/bluffocracy
I fear that not only have too many senior MPs come up via the same route (e.g. PPE) and have limited wide experience; too many have not experienced failure in their lives. Although the modern media may not make being a 'failure' easy.
Heseltine famously got himself out of National Service early by standing for Parliament, but otherwise men born before 1939 or so would have done, or been liable for, National Service, and being born before about 1936 would have meant they couldn't avoid it by being at Uni.
Blair of course was the deposit-losing Labour candidate in Beaconsfield by-election in1982, when the Labour vote was almost halved.
The US Defense[sp] Secretary has resigned, I see.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/21/love-thrive-comfort-zones-brexit-trump
On the Economist article, there's obviously something in it, but like most articles seeking to make an argument it generalises too much. MPs are IMO rather than they used to be at being familiar with what it's like to be struggling, not necessarily because they've personally been single parents or unemployed or disabled (absolutely nobody has experienced every kind of problem themselves) but because the modern political system forces them to meet and try to help people in those situations. Political sophisticates are derisive about casework, but it means you become familiar with a variety of experiences that astonish and perhaps humble most of us who've done it.
By contrast, biographies of past MPs and leaders make it clear that they often took only a passing interest in their constituencies, visiting now and then for form's sake. Some made a joke out of it - "the less I see of my constituents, the happier we all are" - which would be unthinkable today.
It's true that many MPs have always been involved in politics (though it's still unusual that they've never done anything else), but it's not really odd that people who take up a career have always been interested in it - I'm sure that many doctors have never done anything else and wanted to be doctors since they were children, and we don't think less of them for that.
I am not convinced that Trump is a great advert for non-carrer politicians either, though perhaps Dr Wollaston is.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-likens-her-conviction-to-that-of-biblical-figures
And as for these delusional UKIP-lite scum, well, what do you expect?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mp-compares-herself-jesus-after-13759244
The world is absolutely f***ed now. Mattis and Kelly were the two people keeping the clown under some kind of control.
https://news.sky.com/story/watford-teen-hacker-jailed-for-three-years-over-bomb-threats-to-schools-and-airline-11573871
My little 'uns school received several threats. Fortunately sane heads prevailed; they did searches but did not close the school, and sent a letter home in the evening with the children to say what had happened.
He should have got more than three years IMO, especially given the fact he committed more offences whilst on bail.
Frankly none of us have experienced more than a fraction of everyday life anyway. I'm strong in some areas - worked in senior industry management, ran successful private businesses, lived in 6 countries and visited 25, been in the benefits system, and had various personal challenges that I won't go into here. I have zero experience of fighting, parenting, working in a shop, fishing, or the City. Others will have a totally different pattern. The key is surely an ability and willingness to understand other people's situation, not an expectation that you've done it all.
I don't claim to have been particularly successful (though I wasn't a bad constituency MP), but the same applies to many who are. For example, my local MP is Jeremy Hunt. I don't share his politics and I've never met him. But local people, including Labour voters, think he's not bad at understanding their issues, even though I'd be surprised to learn if he's ever been on the dole or slept rough. Conversely, I knew Tories in Islington who wouldn't have dreamed of voting Labour except for Corbyn as their local MP, because he'd really put himself out to help them personally and they felt he understood them in a way they'd not expected.
Instead Trump is waging an economic war against the likes of China and the EU on trade and a war on illegal immigration from Mexico
For all the complaints about politicians I think it is the media that largely helps shape our politics and they are the ones who shoulder a lot of the blame for the problems we have.
Not sure about Tories fomenting any of this, though, they represented the owners who didn't want to pay minimum wages.
No doubt I'll be corrected shortly. :-)
Actually this is the one area that I cut her a bit of slack. In my experience many of those brought up in the African Christian culture have a much more direct and daily link between their lives and the bible than modern CofE attenders would make. I can easily imagine that these references seemed normal to her and she was merely indicating her scriptural guidance rather than making claims to sanctity.
Still tin-eared for a politician in modern Britain, mind.
So yes, he was correct.
"Although I am a bit fed up with Uncle Vince too. I am leaning to the Greens now. "
As the owner of solar panels, I've been accused of being Green too. A slur I deny. As I'm sixty- nine next month, living in a cave and surviving on grass isn't my idea of fun, and managing without medicine because those cute rats have been experimented on might well curtail my life-span.
They do have some sensible ideas. Dependence on fossil fuels, especially if they're controlled by unfriendly nations, was never a good idea,
You might be able to work out what their views are on air travel. The younger ones like to tie themselves to railings to stop it. Wasn't Gatwick the last target? Just saying.
A reflection on how they will govern surely ?
I'd be tempted to take the other side of the bet at 1/4