Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to have a dabble on Tristram Hunt at 33-1 for next LAB

124»

Comments

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013

    It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    So, your argument is that head teachers and governors are so incompetent that they are incapable of taking this factor into account when selecting staff, and that parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.

    Well, quite. The bureaucrats know best, and what a triumph our education system is as a result. After all, we didn't quite come bottom in the OECD tables.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Populus

    Lab 37 (-2); Cons 34 (+1); LD 14 (+2); UKIP 8 (+1) Others 8 (+1)

    Should be UKIP 8 ( - 1 )
  • Not sure if the driving test analogy is really what we want to consider given that you're allowed loads of retakes there as well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.
    Unless they are well enough off to educate their children privately......

  • Populus


    Lab 37 (-2); Cons 34 (+1); LD 14 (+2); UKIP 8 (+1) Others 8 (+1)

    Should be UKIP 8 ( - 1 )
    Oops and Cheers
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    OGH Tweets: "LAB has only won working majorities at 6 general elections, 5 of them with public school educated leaders at helm
    Good for @TristramHuntMP?

    OGH trying to move the market so he can lay his bet?
    That's not a serious comment, is it, Charles?

    I back Mike's suggestions blind, even when I don't agree with them. Long experience indicates that it pays.

    Fwiw, I regard this as one of The Man's more speculative punts. It may be a long time before Hunt gets his chance, and there are other interesting candidates of that generation, notably those flagged up by another shrewd punter, Henry Manson - Stella Creasey and Rachel Reeves, for example.

    Their prices are likely to shorten if Miliband wins the next election and therefore stays on. Hunt likewise is worth a small long-term investment for the same reason.



    Not really - just come out of a 2 hour compliance briefing on market abuse though so was feeling grumpy!

    That said, someone who is in the position to move markets - such as OGH - does need to be whiter than white.
    Count yourself lucky Charles, just come out of a meeting with bank when I asked to borrow £60k for an investment project I'm looking at.Small SME retirement,stacks of security and I repaid them within 2 years when I did it before. No can do, have changed policies, loads of excuses - all bullshit.

    What's the fking point of our banks ?

  • It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    So, your argument is that head teachers and governors are so incompetent that they are incapable of taking this factor into account when selecting staff, and that parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.

    Well, quite. The bureaucrats know best, and what a triumph our education system is as a result. After all, wed didn't quite come bottom in the OECD tables.

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

  • Comparing the skill-set needed to teach at the country's leading independent, fee-paying school with the one needed to teach in a state-funded school is absurd

    I love it when our friends on the left argue for special treatment for fee paying schools!

    I wonder if Dr The Honourable Tristram Hunt will use the same argument to defend the same practice at his old school?

    It's a matter of common sense.
    But not a matter of principle?

    ''Special treatment" is almost always a matter of 'common sense'.

    If Clegg & the Hon Hunt were solely concerned about 'unqualified teachers' they would apply it across all schools - and not exempt the ones they went to themselves.

    Do you believe that the state should take control of the private education sector?

  • Plato said:

    Ouch and well said.

    The C of E used to be the Tory party at prayer. Now Justin Welby is Polly Toynbee in a cassock

    Justin Welby is the new shadow minister for Moral Indignation. And it’s a wide-ranging brief. Over the weekend he intervened on energy policy, attacking the Big Six power companies. “Having spent years on a low income as a clergyman I know what it is like when your household budget is blown apart by a significant extra fuel bill and your anxiety levels become very high,” he said ...

    It’ll be interesting to see where the Archbishop sets his sights next. “Welby slams Gove on Free Schools”. “Jesus never needed any Help to Buy, says Bishop”. “'Badgers are God’s creatures too', says Church chief”.

    Once upon a time the C of E was seen as an ecclesiastical extension of Conservative Central Office. But these days its main job seems to be to fill in on Polly Toynbee’s day off.http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242368/the-c-of-e-used-to-be-the-tory-party-at-prayer-now-justin-welby-is-polly-toynbee-in-a-cassock/

    Funnily enough, I don't remember many of these articles when Archbishops of Canterbury and other churchmen were criticising the Labour government.

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    Ouch and well said.

    The C of E used to be the Tory party at prayer. Now Justin Welby is Polly Toynbee in a cassock

    Justin Welby is the new shadow minister for Moral Indignation. And it’s a wide-ranging brief. Over the weekend he intervened on energy policy, attacking the Big Six power companies. “Having spent years on a low income as a clergyman I know what it is like when your household budget is blown apart by a significant extra fuel bill and your anxiety levels become very high,” he said ...

    It’ll be interesting to see where the Archbishop sets his sights next. “Welby slams Gove on Free Schools”. “Jesus never needed any Help to Buy, says Bishop”. “'Badgers are God’s creatures too', says Church chief”.

    Once upon a time the C of E was seen as an ecclesiastical extension of Conservative Central Office. But these days its main job seems to be to fill in on Polly Toynbee’s day off.http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242368/the-c-of-e-used-to-be-the-tory-party-at-prayer-now-justin-welby-is-polly-toynbee-in-a-cassock/

    IMHO, one reason for the C of E's decline is because the political views of its leaders are so at odds with those of its followers.

    Yougov have been doing a lot of polling on the opinions of self-identified Anglicans over the past year, and unsurprisingly, they tend to be pretty right wing. But, you'd never get that impression from the Bishops.

    Got a link to that polling, and does it cover Christians more generally? Obviously Christians tend to be towards the left of the scale on issues like social justice, poverty and so on, so it would be interesting to see how that breaks between Anglicans and others. It would also be interesting to see if that's "Anglicans" in the sense of "I need to name a religion so I'll name the national one" or "Anglicans" in the sense of "regular attending members of Anglican congregations".
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    OGH Tweets: "LAB has only won working majorities at 6 general elections, 5 of them with public school educated leaders at helm
    Good for @TristramHuntMP?

    OGH trying to move the market so he can lay his bet?
    That's not a serious comment, is it, Charles?

    I back Mike's suggestions blind, even when I don't agree with them. Long experience indicates that it pays.

    Fwiw, I regard this as one of The Man's more speculative punts. It may be a long time before Hunt gets his chance, and there are other interesting candidates of that generation, notably those flagged up by another shrewd punter, Henry Manson - Stella Creasey and Rachel Reeves, for example.

    Their prices are likely to shorten if Miliband wins the next election and therefore stays on. Hunt likewise is worth a small long-term investment for the same reason.



    Not really - just come out of a 2 hour compliance briefing on market abuse though so was feeling grumpy!

    That said, someone who is in the position to move markets - such as OGH - does need to be whiter than white.

    He'd only have to be caught out once, Charles, and his reputation would be shot. Some on here are serious punters and we would not be misled twice.

    I've known Mike a long time and never had reason to suggest he was talking up his own book. What he does do, no doubt, is place his bets before putting up a thread or posting his tips. That's not quite the same thing, and is entirely in order. I do much the same, although it tends these days to be in horse racing rather than political markets. The shrewder bookies will of course have Mike's card marked and will adjust prices accordingly, but in the stronger markets that still leaves plenty of vaue for the rest of us to feed on.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    So, your argument is that head teachers and governors are so incompetent that they are incapable of taking this factor into account when selecting staff, and that parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.

    Well, quite. The bureaucrats know best, and what a triumph our education system is as a result. After all, wed didn't quite come bottom in the OECD tables.

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    The reality was that under Labour head teachers and governors could make few independent decisions.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Comparing the skill-set needed to teach at the country's leading independent, fee-paying school with the one needed to teach in a state-funded school is absurd

    I love it when our friends on the left argue for special treatment for fee paying schools!

    I wonder if Dr The Honourable Tristram Hunt will use the same argument to defend the same practice at his old school?

    It's a matter of common sense.
    But not a matter of principle?

    ''Special treatment" is almost always a matter of 'common sense'.

    If Clegg & the Hon Hunt were solely concerned about 'unqualified teachers' they would apply it across all schools - and not exempt the ones they went to themselves.

    Do you believe that the state should take control of the private education sector?

    No.

    But if you believe, as Clegg & the Hon Hunt appear to, that the state has a duty of care to children over teacher qualifications, then the same rules should be applied in all schools - not just ones that get state money directly - and arguably public schools are beneficiaries of tax payer largesse via charitable status......

    In any case, there are orders of magnitude more under-performing teachers in the state sector than Free Schools, Academies or Public Schools - and Hunt accuses Gove of being 'ideological'!

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    OGH Tweets: "LAB has only won working majorities at 6 general elections, 5 of them with public school educated leaders at helm
    Good for @TristramHuntMP?

    OGH trying to move the market so he can lay his bet?
    That's not a serious comment, is it, Charles?

    I back Mike's suggestions blind, even when I don't agree with them. Long experience indicates that it pays.

    Fwiw, I regard this as one of The Man's more speculative punts. It may be a long time before Hunt gets his chance, and there are other interesting candidates of that generation, notably those flagged up by another shrewd punter, Henry Manson - Stella Creasey and Rachel Reeves, for example.

    Their prices are likely to shorten if Miliband wins the next election and therefore stays on. Hunt likewise is worth a small long-term investment for the same reason.



    Not really - just come out of a 2 hour compliance briefing on market abuse though so was feeling grumpy!

    That said, someone who is in the position to move markets - such as OGH - does need to be whiter than white.
    Count yourself lucky Charles, just come out of a meeting with bank when I asked to borrow £60k for an investment project I'm looking at.Small SME retirement,stacks of security and I repaid them within 2 years when I did it before. No can do, have changed policies, loads of excuses - all bullshit.

    What's the fking point of our banks ?

    What terms?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,232
    TGOHF said:

    Labour uncut have an update on Lab internal squabbling..

    For betting folk, this stood out from that Labour Uncut piece:

    "with next spring’s special conference on reform of the party’s links with its trade union affiliates effectively a make-or-break moment for Miliband"

    So, what if it is break...? Could Ed really be out next spring? Or just hyperbole?
  • perdix said:

    It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    So, your argument is that head teachers and governors are so incompetent that they are incapable of taking this factor into account when selecting staff, and that parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.

    Well, quite. The bureaucrats know best, and what a triumph our education system is as a result. After all, wed didn't quite come bottom in the OECD tables.

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    The reality was that under Labour head teachers and governors could make few independent decisions.

    What powers were taken away from them?

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    I think it is your argument. You are arguing that we have to have so-called 'qualified' teachers in every post in every single state-funded school, simply because there might be some cases where the qualification is appropriate, and that head teachers and governors should have no discretion to decide for themselves whether that requirement is appropriate in any particular case. For example, there might be some cases where the skill set required to teach in a particular post in a particular state school is very much the same as our (extremely successful, world-class) private schools might apply. You want to remove all discretion from the head teacher.

    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage. They managed to double spending whilst simultaneously making our state system even worse compared with its peers. Time for them to shut up and let Michael Gove get on with rescuing us from the disaster.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    What an epic Twitter handle!

    Alistair Darling @TogetherDarling
    I am glad that @AlexSalmond has backed down and will now debate with me before #indyref. Let's get on and make it happen.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Quite

    RT @Petercampbell1: If Hinkley Point was a wind farm: pic.twitter.com/r8SPkt1ory

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BXF0KoPCQAAMIXJ.png

    Peter Campbell @Petercampbell1
    Vincent de Rivaz reminds journos that EDF already the largest electricity producer in the UK. Its nukes account for 19pc of electricity.
  • Comparing the skill-set needed to teach at the country's leading independent, fee-paying school with the one needed to teach in a state-funded school is absurd

    I love it when our friends on the left argue for special treatment for fee paying schools!

    I wonder if Dr The Honourable Tristram Hunt will use the same argument to defend the same practice at his old school?

    It's a matter of common sense.
    But not a matter of principle?

    ''Special treatment" is almost always a matter of 'common sense'.

    If Clegg & the Hon Hunt were solely concerned about 'unqualified teachers' they would apply it across all schools - and not exempt the ones they went to themselves.

    Do you believe that the state should take control of the private education sector?

    No.

    But if you believe, as Clegg & the Hon Hunt appear to, that the state has a duty of care to children over teacher qualifications, then the same rules should be applied in all schools - not just ones that get state money directly - and arguably public schools are beneficiaries of tax payer largesse via charitable status......

    In any case, there are orders of magnitude more under-performing teachers in the state sector than Free Schools, Academies or Public Schools - and Hunt accuses Gove of being 'ideological'!

    I have not seen those stats - can you link to them? As I understand it, the government's priority has been to get the top performing state schools to convert into academies. If it had prioritised converting the worst-performing schools the picture may well have been very different. I agree with you about public schools.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I like that bet. I've thought for a while Tristram Hunt could be a decent shout as next Labour leader. He isn't affected by the Blair/Brown nonsense, is youngish, quite handsome (I think?), & speaks well.

    In a weird way it does feel like Labour can get away with a toff at the top more easily than the Conservatives

    One thing to remember regarding the odds shortening on a bet Mike has placed, is that the odds have only shortened because Mike has placed the bet. Don't go thinking "wow Mike was onto something" because the odds have shortened. He probably is on to something, given he is an excellent political bettor, but there is no liquidity in these markets and one bet from a marked up client forces a major rejig of the market.

    Likely to tempt you back, Sam? Serious question re. Hunt, Labour and ex-Lab Kippers.
    I don't think so. I don't dislike Miliband actually.

    Cant speak for anyone else, but I just agree with more UKIP policies than I do of Labours, particularly regarding grammar schools and the EU, so the Labour leader doesn't matter really.

    I think the brightest future leader in politics is Paul Nuttall

  • tim said:

    I'm happy to take bets on Ed getting his changes through

    Of course he'll get his changes through, because whatever fudge is agreed will be rebranded as the changes he wanted.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    OGH Tweets: "LAB has only won working majorities at 6 general elections, 5 of them with public school educated leaders at helm
    Good for @TristramHuntMP?

    OGH trying to move the market so he can lay his bet?
    That's not a serious comment, is it, Charles?

    I back Mike's suggestions blind, even when I don't agree with them. Long experience indicates that it pays.

    Fwiw, I regard this as one of The Man's more speculative punts. It may be a long time before Hunt gets his chance, and there are other interesting candidates of that generation, notably those flagged up by another shrewd punter, Henry Manson - Stella Creasey and Rachel Reeves, for example.

    Their prices are likely to shorten if Miliband wins the next election and therefore stays on. Hunt likewise is worth a small long-term investment for the same reason.



    Not really - just come out of a 2 hour compliance briefing on market abuse though so was feeling grumpy!

    That said, someone who is in the position to move markets - such as OGH - does need to be whiter than white.
    Count yourself lucky Charles, just come out of a meeting with bank when I asked to borrow £60k for an investment project I'm looking at.Small SME retirement,stacks of security and I repaid them within 2 years when I did it before. No can do, have changed policies, loads of excuses - all bullshit.

    What's the fking point of our banks ?

    Lol!

    My old man had some great aphorisms for our great financial institutions. Banks, he said, were always very happy to lend you money as long as you could prove you didn't need it.

    My favorite though was his description of Insurance Companies as bookmakers who don't pay out on winners.

    I miss him.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,985
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I like that bet. I've thought for a while Tristram Hunt could be a decent shout as next Labour leader. He isn't affected by the Blair/Brown nonsense, is youngish, quite handsome (I think?), & speaks well.

    In a weird way it does feel like Labour can get away with a toff at the top more easily than the Conservatives

    One thing to remember regarding the odds shortening on a bet Mike has placed, is that the odds have only shortened because Mike has placed the bet. Don't go thinking "wow Mike was onto something" because the odds have shortened. He probably is on to something, given he is an excellent political bettor, but there is no liquidity in these markets and one bet from a marked up client forces a major rejig of the market.

    Likely to tempt you back, Sam? Serious question re. Hunt, Labour and ex-Lab Kippers.
    I don't think so. I don't dislike Miliband actually.

    Cant speak for anyone else, but I just agree with more UKIP policies than I do of Labours, particularly regarding grammar schools and the EU, so the Labour leader doesn't matter really.

    I think the brightest future leader in politics is Paul Nuttall

    What's UKIP's position on the whole China colony thing? This is something I think they've got to be clear about. They want our national independence, but are they happy to let the People's Republic of China build our nuclear power stations?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    @ Charles

    I didn't even get to terms they just said they wouldn't do it.

    Previously I upped mortgage for a larger amount over ten years and paid them back in 2 . So they had 90+% security, two earners and still said no because it was business, but they would lend me the amount for such things as consolidating debt, going on holiday in fact any consumer spending nonsense I could think of. When I've stopped ranting I'm sending a letter to their CEO saying why are they a bank.

    I only wanted the loan because I'm haggling a deal and if I get a yes soon I wanted to move quickly. I've got an offer on CID to fund working capital so really this was about making sure I have enough headroom to meet upper end of vendor's expectations.

  • No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    I think it is your argument. You are arguing that we have to have so-called 'qualified' teachers in every post in every single state-funded school, simply because there might be some cases where the qualification is appropriate, and that head teachers and governors should have no discretion to decide for themselves whether that requirement is appropriate in any particular case. For example, there might be some cases where the skill set required to teach in a particular post in a particular state school are very much the same as our (extremely successful, world-class) private schools might apply. You want to remove all discretion from the head teacher.

    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage. They managed to double spending whilst simultaneously making our state system even worse compared with its peers. Time for them to shut up and let Michael Gove get on with rescuing us from the disaster.

    Obviously you think it is my argument. As we know, you will believe what you want to believe. But just because you want it to be true does not make it true Richard, I'm afraid.

    As for the OECD rankings - I think it may be a little more nuanced than you suggest. But in broad terms it is clear our education system is not working well and has not worked for many decades - I have never disagreed with that proposition. Whether Michael Gove has any of the answers remains to be seen. His closing down of the London Challenge does not fill me with optimism, neither does his relentless hoarding of power at the centre or his complete lack of transparency over free school funding.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,985
    Plato said:

    What an epic Twitter handle!

    Alistair Darling @TogetherDarling
    I am glad that @AlexSalmond has backed down and will now debate with me before #indyref. Let's get on and make it happen.

    'Make it happen' Is that a little dig there? Taking the old RBS logo?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,232

    Of course he'll get his changes through, because whatever fudge is agreed will be rebranded as the changes he wanted.

    Well, unless he is seriously languishing by then - and the polls show Mrs Balls would get a better response from the voters. In which case, they have the perfect opportunity to do what Labour never does - knife a failing leader.
  • Obviously you think it is my argument. As we know, you will believe what you want to believe. But just because you want it to be true does not make it true Richard, I'm afraid.

    As usual when you lose the argument, you stop engaging with the point I made.

    This blind faith in box-ticking 'qualifications', with no discretion for those selecting the teacher to consider whether perhaps a candidate has equivalent expertise or more appropriate skills for the particular post, is just bizarre.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    tim said:

    I'm happy to take bets on Ed getting his changes through

    Of course he'll get his changes through, because whatever fudge is agreed will be rebranded as the changes he wanted.
    That overlooks the point that Ed has already set out in detail what changes he wants. So we can judge him against those criteria.
  • tim said:

    And I'm happy to take bets on you and Dan Hodges branding it a climbdown whatever happens

    Oh, those are both nailed on.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,688
    Polruan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    Ouch and well said.

    The C of E used to be the Tory party at prayer. Now Justin Welby is Polly Toynbee in a cassock

    Justin Welby is the new shadow minister for Moral Indignation. And it’s a wide-ranging brief. Over the weekend he intervened on energy policy, attacking the Big Six power companies. “Having spent years on a low income as a clergyman I know what it is like when your household budget is blown apart by a significant extra fuel bill and your anxiety levels become very high,” he said ...

    It’ll be interesting to see where the Archbishop sets his sights next. “Welby slams Gove on Free Schools”. “Jesus never needed any Help to Buy, says Bishop”. “'Badgers are God’s creatures too', says Church chief”.

    Once upon a time the C of E was seen as an ecclesiastical extension of Conservative Central Office. But these days its main job seems to be to fill in on Polly Toynbee’s day off.http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242368/the-c-of-e-used-to-be-the-tory-party-at-prayer-now-justin-welby-is-polly-toynbee-in-a-cassock/

    IMHO, one reason for the C of E's decline is because the political views of its leaders are so at odds with those of its followers.

    Yougov have been doing a lot of polling on the opinions of self-identified Anglicans over the past year, and unsurprisingly, they tend to be pretty right wing. But, you'd never get that impression from the Bishops.

    Got a link to that polling, and does it cover Christians more generally? Obviously Christians tend to be towards the left of the scale on issues like social justice, poverty and so on, so it would be interesting to see how that breaks between Anglicans and others. It would also be interesting to see if that's "Anglicans" in the sense of "I need to name a religion so I'll name the national one" or "Anglicans" in the sense of "regular attending members of Anglican congregations".
    Page 35 onwards deals with political opinions. The BES found that in 2010, 47% of Anglicans in England and Wales voted Conservative or UKIP.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4vs1srt1h1/YG-Archive-University-of-Lancaster-Faith-Matters-Debate-full-results-180613-website.pdf
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.


    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage.
    Really?

    Perhaps if the "left" and "teaching Unions" had been in charge of education for the last few decades, we would be in a far better position.

    Instead, following a Tory Government, we had years of increased marketisation (and the targets, shortages, uncertainty, ineffecient allocation of resources, inequality, layers of management, grade inflation, red tape that process necessary involves) under Labour. Something Gove is now accelerating.

    Far from "fixing" anything, Gove is repeating Labour's mistakes, only many times over.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Comparing the skill-set needed to teach at the country's leading independent, fee-paying school with the one needed to teach in a state-funded school is absurd

    I love it when our friends on the left argue for special treatment for fee paying schools!

    I wonder if Dr The Honourable Tristram Hunt will use the same argument to defend the same practice at his old school?

    It's a matter of common sense.
    But not a matter of principle?

    ''Special treatment" is almost always a matter of 'common sense'.

    If Clegg & the Hon Hunt were solely concerned about 'unqualified teachers' they would apply it across all schools - and not exempt the ones they went to themselves.

    Do you believe that the state should take control of the private education sector?

    No.

    But if you believe, as Clegg & the Hon Hunt appear to, that the state has a duty of care to children over teacher qualifications, then the same rules should be applied in all schools - not just ones that get state money directly - and arguably public schools are beneficiaries of tax payer largesse via charitable status......

    In any case, there are orders of magnitude more under-performing teachers in the state sector than Free Schools, Academies or Public Schools - and Hunt accuses Gove of being 'ideological'!

    I have not seen those stats - can you link to them?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/how_should_incompetent_teacher.html
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Obviously you think it is my argument. As we know, you will believe what you want to believe. But just because you want it to be true does not make it true Richard, I'm afraid.

    As usual when you lose the argument, you stop engaging with the point I made.

    This blind faith in box-ticking 'qualifications', with no discretion for those selecting the teacher to consider whether perhaps a candidate has equivalent expertise or more appropriate skills for the particular post, is just bizarre.
    Perhaps a more effective measure would be to require that Headteachers are fully qualified as managers and recruiters.

    [originally intended in jest, but the more I think about it...]
  • Obviously you think it is my argument. As we know, you will believe what you want to believe. But just because you want it to be true does not make it true Richard, I'm afraid.

    As usual when you lose the argument, you stop engaging with the point I made.

    This blind faith in box-ticking 'qualifications', with no discretion for those selecting the teacher to consider whether perhaps a candidate has equivalent expertise or more appropriate skills for the particular post, is just bizarre.

    There has been no argument, You have claimed that I believe certain things that I do not believe. You have not actually dealt with what I did say.
  • Comparing the skill-set needed to teach at the country's leading independent, fee-paying school with the one needed to teach in a state-funded school is absurd

    I love it when our friends on the left argue for special treatment for fee paying schools!

    I wonder if Dr The Honourable Tristram Hunt will use the same argument to defend the same practice at his old school?

    It's a matter of common sense.
    But not a matter of principle?

    ''Special treatment" is almost always a matter of 'common sense'.

    If Clegg & the Hon Hunt were solely concerned about 'unqualified teachers' they would apply it across all schools - and not exempt the ones they went to themselves.

    Do you believe that the state should take control of the private education sector?

    No.

    But if you believe, as Clegg & the Hon Hunt appear to, that the state has a duty of care to children over teacher qualifications, then the same rules should be applied in all schools - not just ones that get state money directly - and arguably public schools are beneficiaries of tax payer largesse via charitable status......

    In any case, there are orders of magnitude more under-performing teachers in the state sector than Free Schools, Academies or Public Schools - and Hunt accuses Gove of being 'ideological'!

    I have not seen those stats - can you link to them?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/how_should_incompetent_teacher.html

    Not sure that the link backs up an assertion that "there are orders of magnitude more under-performing teachers in the state sector than Free Schools, Academies or Public Schools".

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,098
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I like that bet. I've thought for a while Tristram Hunt could be a decent shout as next Labour leader. He isn't affected by the Blair/Brown nonsense, is youngish, quite handsome (I think?), & speaks well.

    In a weird way it does feel like Labour can get away with a toff at the top more easily than the Conservatives

    One thing to remember regarding the odds shortening on a bet Mike has placed, is that the odds have only shortened because Mike has placed the bet. Don't go thinking "wow Mike was onto something" because the odds have shortened. He probably is on to something, given he is an excellent political bettor, but there is no liquidity in these markets and one bet from a marked up client forces a major rejig of the market.

    Likely to tempt you back, Sam? Serious question re. Hunt, Labour and ex-Lab Kippers.
    I don't think so. I don't dislike Miliband actually.

    Cant speak for anyone else, but I just agree with more UKIP policies than I do of Labours, particularly regarding grammar schools and the EU, so the Labour leader doesn't matter really.

    I think the brightest future leader in politics is Paul Nuttall

    tyvm
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited October 2013
    Npower is my energy company = Greedy b*****ds

    3 of the big 6 energy companies are left to tell us they won't be putting they prices up massively or not at all as for camerons/coalition to switch,just looking out of touch with the real world.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Hunt gets an emergency question on 400 pupils in a Free School.....

    ......did I miss the Labour emergency question on this?

    "Ofsted: 1.4m children in poor performing state schools
    At least 1.4 million children are still being taught in underperforming schools despite significant improvements in education standards over the last 12 months, according to Ofsted"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10296350/Ofsted-1.4m-children-in-poor-performing-state-schools.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Npower is my energy company = Greedy b*****ds

    3 of the big 6 energy companies are left to tell us they won't be putting they prices up massively or not at all as for camerons/coalition to switch,just looking out of touch with the real world.

    RT @Pete_Spence: With Npower? 18% of your electricity bill is the result of government schemes pic.twitter.com/HjLEXd1Xpi
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,758

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    I think it is your argument. You are arguing that we have to have so-called 'qualified' teachers in every post in every single state-funded school, simply because there might be some cases where the qualification is appropriate, and that head teachers and governors should have no discretion to decide for themselves whether that requirement is appropriate in any particular case. For example, there might be some cases where the skill set required to teach in a particular post in a particular state school is very much the same as our (extremely successful, world-class) private schools might apply. You want to remove all discretion from the head teacher.

    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage. They managed to double spending whilst simultaneously making our state system even worse compared with its peers. Time for them to shut up and let Michael Gove get on with rescuing us from the disaster.

    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,854

    Is there no end to the Tories' wickedness?

    "'Bedroom Tax' Pushes Claimants Off Benefits
    Council figures show one in 10 claimants who have lost out because of the coalition cut have come off benefits completely.

    Data obtained under Freedom of Information laws shows tens of thousands of claimants affected by the welfare reform have been encouraged to find work.

    This has doubled the saving predicted by ministers from the move, up from £500m-a-year to around £1bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1157481/bedroom-tax-pushes-claimants-off-benefits

    As there are around half a million deaths a year in the UK it would seem likely that many of those 70,000 estimated as no longer claimimg benefits are in fact not doing so because they are dead .
    Or become OAPs. OAP doesn't count as a "benefit" in these circumstances.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited October 2013
    Jonathan said:

    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?

    Should you need a licence from the state to practice any trade?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I like that bet. I've thought for a while Tristram Hunt could be a decent shout as next Labour leader. He isn't affected by the Blair/Brown nonsense, is youngish, quite handsome (I think?), & speaks well.

    In a weird way it does feel like Labour can get away with a toff at the top more easily than the Conservatives

    One thing to remember regarding the odds shortening on a bet Mike has placed, is that the odds have only shortened because Mike has placed the bet. Don't go thinking "wow Mike was onto something" because the odds have shortened. He probably is on to something, given he is an excellent political bettor, but there is no liquidity in these markets and one bet from a marked up client forces a major rejig of the market.

    Likely to tempt you back, Sam? Serious question re. Hunt, Labour and ex-Lab Kippers.
    I don't think so. I don't dislike Miliband actually.

    Cant speak for anyone else, but I just agree with more UKIP policies than I do of Labours, particularly regarding grammar schools and the EU, so the Labour leader doesn't matter really.

    I think the brightest future leader in politics is Paul Nuttall

    What's UKIP's position on the whole China colony thing? This is something I think they've got to be clear about. They want our national independence, but are they happy to let the People's Republic of China build our nuclear power stations?
    I don't know the answer to that Im sorry.

    I don't think UKIP want the UK to be a self sufficient nation a la the Good Life though! National Independence means we get to make our own decisions on where we can buy stuff, not that we have to make it all ourselves

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Let them eat cake issues ;-)

    'The cheapest unit of energy is the one you don't use': Boss of npower's YouTube message to customers as firm hikes energy prices by up to 11.1%

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2470001/The-cheapest-unit-energy-dont-use-Boss-npowers-YouTube-message-customers-firm-hikes-energy-prices-10.html


    We want our 11% pay rise and we're going to get it, MPs tell Cameron as he battles to block inflation-busting hike

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2469771/We-want-11-pay-rise-going-MPs-tell-Cameron-battles-block-inflation-busting-hike.html
  • GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    edited October 2013
    Jonathan said:


    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?

    They do, although it's normally NHS hospitals that use them - they're called "nurse practitioners". They tend to be found in NHS hospitals because they are (sometimes) cheaper, but less so in private hospitals.

    Vets on the other hand...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    A little taster of more good news to come

    SWIFT has just published its October GDP Index which includes its final prediction of UK Q3 GDP Growth.

    As mentioned in previous postings, SWIFT bases its final of three 'nowcasts' on a combination of published ONS data and its own analysis of SWIFT domestic and international payments traffic.

    No big surprises this time though the final estimate has been tweaked down 0.1% from last month and now stands at 0.7%. Their final Q4 forecast (the next three will be 'nowcasts') remains unchanged at 0.5%.

    The last three SWIFT Indices issued immediately before the ONS announcement have all been bang on or very close to target. However, this time, unlike for Q1 and Q2, there prediction is inline with the prevailing consensus.
    UK GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.7% 1.4%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.5% 2.2%
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Gasman

    Nurse practitioners are not unqualified doctors - they are nurses, with extra qualifications.
  • GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    Bobajob said:

    @Gasman
    Nurse practitioners are not unqualified doctors - they are nurses, with extra qualifications.

    Yes, who are used to perform tasks previously (or elsewhere) performed by doctors.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    A chart topping performance from the near-perfect Chancellor

    And here are all the SWIFTIndex forecasts for comparison:

    United Kingdom
    GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.7% 1.4%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.5% 2.2%
    USA
    GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.6% 1.6%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.4% 1.9%
    Germany
    UK GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.4% 0.6%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.4% 1.5%
    All OECD Members
    GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.3% 1.1%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.3% 1.5%
    Europe (EU27)
    GDP Growth estimated
    Period QoQ% YoY%
    Nowcast Q3 2013 0.3% 0.1%
    Forecast Q4 2013 0.2% 0.7%
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    perdix said:

    It's a matter of common sense. The challenges of teaching a small class of children whose parents have paid for them to be there and who have been screened before they arrive are rather different to those you face when confronted by a larger class of mixed ability children from a wide variety of backgrounds and domestic circumstances.

    So, your argument is that head teachers and governors are so incompetent that they are incapable of taking this factor into account when selecting staff, and that parents are so useless at choosing schools that they would choose to send their children to schools where head teachers make such duff decisions.

    Well, quite. The bureaucrats know best, and what a triumph our education system is as a result. After all, wed didn't quite come bottom in the OECD tables.

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    The reality was that under Labour head teachers and governors could make few independent decisions.

    What powers were taken away from them?

    Few were given to them.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Gasman - that doesn't make them unqualified doctors. Paramedics perform some diagnostic tasks, and administer emergency treatment, but that doesn't make them unqualified doctors either. Teaching assistants perform some teaching roles, but nor does that make them unqualified teachers.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    Jonathan said:

    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?


    No, and nor do they, although I believe they can recognise qualifications other than UK ones.

    So what? We have a perfect example in the UK of why the same doesn't apply to schools, since our excellent private schools, which includes some world-class schools by any standard, seem to be able to manage massively better than state schools but employing some so-called 'unqualified' teachers.

    It is one of the odd blindspots of the left that they don't understand the difference between cases where you need regulation and cases where you don't. All the more odd in this case since we have examples proving that you don't.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Jonathan said:

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    I think it is your argument. You are arguing that we have to have so-called 'qualified' teachers in every post in every single state-funded school, simply because there might be some cases where the qualification is appropriate, and that head teachers and governors should have no discretion to decide for themselves whether that requirement is appropriate in any particular case. For example, there might be some cases where the skill set required to teach in a particular post in a particular state school is very much the same as our (extremely successful, world-class) private schools might apply. You want to remove all discretion from the head teacher.

    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage. They managed to double spending whilst simultaneously making our state system even worse compared with its peers. Time for them to shut up and let Michael Gove get on with rescuing us from the disaster.

    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?



    I am all in favour of making suitable qualifications a precondition for practice.

    My first priority would be left-wing bloggers.

  • GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    Bobajob said:

    @Gasman - that doesn't make them unqualified doctors. Paramedics perform some diagnostic tasks, and administer emergency treatment, but that doesn't make them unqualified doctors either. Teaching assistants perform some teaching roles, but nor does that make them unqualified teachers.

    I think this would be an illustration of why having fixed insistence on qualifications is a bad idea - times change. If you're happy for paramedics to diagnose and treat emergencies, nurses to prescribe medication and perform surgery then what are you limiting to doctors only?
    Similarly, why restrict teaching to people who have a teaching qualifiation if others can do all or part of the job as well as/better than them?
  • New thread
  • AveryLP said:

    Jonathan said:

    No, that is not my argument. It is that the skill-sets required to teach in the independent and state sectors are usually going to be very different, so that what works for the private sector is not directly transferable to the state sector.

    However, given what you say about our place in the OECD rankings it does call into question the ability of our head teachers and governors, doesn't it? As Polruan says downthread, management in much of our schools is sub-optimal, to say the least.

    I think it is your argument. You are arguing that we have to have so-called 'qualified' teachers in every post in every single state-funded school, simply because there might be some cases where the qualification is appropriate, and that head teachers and governors should have no discretion to decide for themselves whether that requirement is appropriate in any particular case. For example, there might be some cases where the skill set required to teach in a particular post in a particular state school is very much the same as our (extremely successful, world-class) private schools might apply. You want to remove all discretion from the head teacher.

    As for the OECD rankings, they prove one thing beyond any shadow of a doubt: every single thing the left and the teaching unions have been saying for decades about how education should be run in the UK is proven to be utter garbage. They managed to double spending whilst simultaneously making our state system even worse compared with its peers. Time for them to shut up and let Michael Gove get on with rescuing us from the disaster.

    Should private hospitals have the freedom to choose between 'qualified' or 'unqualified' doctors?



    I am all in favour of making suitable qualifications a precondition for practice.

    My first priority would be left-wing bloggers.

    Mine would be political tipsters.

    Your 'cousin' Seth would be the first to face suspension.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Roger said:

    It's ironic that the widget should have been invented by one of our brightest and best posters yet it is only used by the stupidest

    How long have you been using the widget Roger, I think we should be told.
    Unfortunately, he couldn't work out how to use it.

This discussion has been closed.