Negotiations require two parties. The SNP can do what they like; nobody from Westminster is obliged to meet them for so-called ‘negotiations’. The Union is reserved to Westminster, so any unilateral actions the Scottish government took to break it would be illegal and unenforceable. It would also not be seen as legitimate by a majority of the Scottish population.
Let’s not have any more drivel please.
The only drivel is emanating from you , you half witted cretinous crackpot.
Evening Malcolm.
To answer a further question upthread, how fast can you get those turnips firing?
evening ydoethur , the idiot meter on the site is rising alarmingly fast with all this madness. I can have a trailer load with you by tomorrow latest.
Rather than a trailer load, could I have a punnet please?
For the deal to get through, a lot of supposed "options" need to be shown to be off the table. One would have to think that there is a better chance of remain supporters coming to back it to avoid no deal, that ERG types backing it out of fear that we remain. Because i'm not convinced that all of them, and certainly the likes of Boris will actually be that concerned by remaining, and the "betrayal" narrative that they will be able to thrive upon as a result.
Yes. Both on the specific point about the ghastly self promoting Johnsons (both of them) and the general point that the remainer MP opposition to the deal is more persuadable than the brexiteer brigade. There are more of them too. It's a bigger target.
That is why I think what will eventually get through the HoC is this WA (perhaps tinkered with here and there) plus a PD that is made to look a little 'softer' than the current one.
Less sure than I used to be that May will be the PM who gets it there but on balance I still think so.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
I'm left with the view referendums (or referenda) won't be terribly popular (like AV, pineapple on pizza etc) for some considerable time after this experience.
If a Party has rejoining the EU in its election manifesto and wins an overall majority at a GE don't they have a clear mandate to proceed with the policy? You'd think so - the SNP has the conundrum of not only having to convince Scotland but England as well. It might of course work to the advantage of some English politicians to see the Scottish seats removed from Westminster. The question though is whether one part of the Union needs the consent of all parts of the Union before leaving (basically the same as the EU I suppose).
As for the main topic, I've always been opposed to another vote - a vote with three options allows 34% of the vote to decide - legitimacy? I'm not convinced.
I'm much less frightened or worried about No Deal than some on here (especially those in favour of May's Deal for whom it is their Project Fear). I do think the Government has some serious questions to answer about a lack of preparation and whether the responsibility sits with May (ultimately) or really Davis/Raab/Barclay I'm less sure.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
The other point not mentioned about a General Election, and the time involved, is that it isn't simply a case of 1) vote in Parliament 2) dissolution 3) Election period 4) New PM appointed the day after.
We could have several days/weeks of coalition negotiations afterwards - god knows where that leaves us...
As for the main topic, I've always been opposed to another vote - a vote with three options allows 34% of the vote to decide - legitimacy? I'm not convinced.
Well that's presumably why people assume instant run off etc to ensure a higher percentage for any winning option, but yes, another vote is more problematic than just going 'the people must be allowed to decide' and nothing else. Would you be more comfortable at least with two options?
As for the main topic, I've always been opposed to another vote - a vote with three options allows 34% of the vote to decide - legitimacy? I'm not convinced.
This is why if you wanted to poll 3 options you'd want to do 2 rounds. It works here because the two of the options answer a different question to the third: first you define brexit, then you decide whether to do it or not.
Haven't the supposedly centrist Cs said that they'll work with Vox?
Vox are a curious beast. They're economically quite centrist, and although they're Eurosceptic by Spanish standards, they're not exactly UKIP. They are the most vocal in terms of opposing further Islamic immigration into Spain, but are far from the FN.
Well that's presumably why people assume instant run off etc to ensure a higher percentage for any winning option, but yes, another vote is more problematic than just going 'the people must be allowed to decide' and nothing else. Would you be more comfortable at least with two options?
I don't think we should have another vote - while I'm no fan of May she is trying to enact the vote of 23/6/16 but I think her Deal is poor and the prospect of No Deal much less terrifying then the visions of Carney and others.
For the deal to get through, a lot of supposed "options" need to be shown to be off the table. One would have to think that there is a better chance of remain supporters coming to back it to avoid no deal, that ERG types backing it out of fear that we remain. Because i'm not convinced that all of them, and certainly the likes of Boris will actually be that concerned by remaining, and the "betrayal" narrative that they will be able to thrive upon as a result.
The Remainer fear of no deal is their big problem in pursuing their current strategy. That is the clear reason why they are trying to engineer amendments that try to take this outcome off the table.
I am sorry, but that is completely wrong. "No Deal" is always on the table unless Brexit is cancelled. "No Deal" is the default position that we have already agreed to. No matter what Remainers or Leavers do, unless the EU agrees to some deal then "No Deal" is what we get.
My father, who has since died, voted Leave. He knew little of current affairs but was (before the onset of his dementia) very sharp, having successfully run his own business for many years. He had zero knowledge of what the EU did beyond what he read in the Daily Mail.
On the morning after the referendum I patiently explained that Brexit could (and still unfortunately could) lead to a recession which would threaten my business which employs about 70 people. Not surprisingly he was appalled at what he had helped to make happen.
I don’t blame him in any way, but will never forgive the Tory bastards who wilfully mislead him and abused his lack of knowledge.
He was also clearly an immensely tolerant, wise and forgiving father, in a way that perhaps you have yet to understand or appreciate.
Fuck off.
Lucky Man is a deranged crank who has been largely dormant since decreeing that Jo Cox’s murder was a false flag operation. Here, he again leaves taste at the door.
Haven't the supposedly centrist Cs said that they'll work with Vox?
Vox are a curious beast. They're economically quite centrist, and although they're Eurosceptic by Spanish standards, they're not exactly UKIP. They are the most vocal in terms of opposing further Islamic immigration into Spain, but are far from the FN.
I can't think of a good comparison for them.
Pin Fortuyn in Holland perhaps? (Based on what you said.)
Haven't the supposedly centrist Cs said that they'll work with Vox?
Vox are a curious beast. They're economically quite centrist, and although they're Eurosceptic by Spanish standards, they're not exactly UKIP. They are the most vocal in terms of opposing further Islamic immigration into Spain, but are far from the FN.
I can't think of a good comparison for them.
Also, they are strongly centralising. Opposed to Catalans and Basques and regions in general. Illiberal on same sex marriage (they want civil partnership instead) and pro-Church and anti-abortion. They are a breakaway from PP. Social Conservatism would seem to be the best description for them. Which has a long tradition in Spain, and not surprising given how much the country has liberalised in the last 40 years.
For the deal to get through, a lot of supposed "options" need to be shown to be off the table. One would have to think that there is a better chance of remain supporters coming to back it to avoid no deal, that ERG types backing it out of fear that we remain. Because i'm not convinced that all of them, and certainly the likes of Boris will actually be that concerned by remaining, and the "betrayal" narrative that they will be able to thrive upon as a result.
The Remainer fear of no deal is their big problem in pursuing their current strategy. That is the clear reason why they are trying to engineer amendments that try to take this outcome off the table.
I am sorry, but that is completely wrong. "No Deal" is always on the table unless Brexit is cancelled. "No Deal" is the default position that we have already agreed to. No matter what Remainers or Leavers do, unless the EU agrees to some deal then "No Deal" is what we get.
I know that, that's the point. They are trying to come up with some formulation/amendment that takes nodeal off the table so they can pursue their remain strategy with no jeopardy.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
Now Parliament is going to deliver that no-deal Brexit.
What a splendid example of democracy in action.
No they didn't, the people voted for 'the easiest Deal in history'
No, they just simply voted to leave the EU and it’s institutions . The ballot just said do you want to remain or leave the EU, How we achieve that is for the Government to decide . Sometimes a short term hit (if it’s no deal )is worth medium to long term gains and freedom to determine our own destiny,
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
Well obviously (when combined with the requirement that the Govt pursues it, and the electorate votes for it). None of which are in the gift of Remainers who advocate it.
The only thing at this stage that opponents of No deal can do to prevent it, that is within their control to guarantee, is to vote for May's deal.
Now Parliament is going to deliver that no-deal Brexit.
What a splendid example of democracy in action.
No they didn't, the people voted for 'the easiest Deal in history'
No, they just simply voted to leave the EU and it’s institutions . The ballot just said do you want to remain or leave the EU, How we achieve that is for the Government to decide . Sometimes a short term hit (if it’s no deal )is worth medium to long term gains and freedom to determine our own destiny,
But equally, May's deal satisfies the referendum result.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Scotland will not leave the eu in a hard Brexit scenario. The question is only if England will go out on its own
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
And you believe that a nodeal crash is a price worth paying to pursue remaining?
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
Especially when it is just to give us time to regroup and do it right next time.....
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
No we didn’t.
We had one - July 1945.
Even on the earliest possible start date, 7th July 1937, we would still only have had one election.
Although on the latest technical end date we have so far had 20 elections and counting in the Second World War.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
On the other hand, if they agreed to cancel Brexit, it provides them with a number of advantages. We did actually contribute quite a bit (other than money) during our membership including a balance to the more protectionist policies as well as increased awareness of social issues and discrimination.
If they cancel it, they do get the benefit of no worries about frictionless trade, backstops, etc. The GFA stays intact and teh EU has two votes at the UN.
Oh yes - they also get our money.
Cancelling Brexit is good for the EU. The real question is what will the UK do about our political lunatic fringe who have stirred up this current shambles?
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
On the other hand, if they agreed to cancel Brexit, it provides them with a number of advantages. We did actually contribute quite a bit (other than money) during our membership including a balance to the more protectionist policies as well as increased awareness of social issues and discrimination.
If they cancel it, they do get the benefit of no worries about frictionless trade, backstops, etc. The GFA stays intact and teh EU has two votes at the UN.
Oh yes - they also get our money.
Cancelling Brexit is good for the EU. The real question is what will the UK do about our political lunatic fringe who have stirred up this current shambles?
That "political lunatic fringe" = 52% of the voters.
No UK Government could, with good conscious, endanger their citizens by putting 'No Deal' on a ballot paper. To suggest otherwise is just dangerous.
Gina Miller said this morning that if a referendum is held it has to be a choice of - deal - no deal - remain
Furthermore the HOC is split almost 33% to each choice
I would also state, yet again, it is in law and is default unless the HOC comes to it senses
The easiest way of closing all this down is to pass TM deal but of coursevno deal goes on any ballot
Any 3 way referendum really has to be in two stages - an “AV” type scenario has the problem that people might be forced to vote against their preferred option to avert their most disliked option.
So should be eg.
1) deal yes or no? 2) if no, remain or leave (with no deal)
Or
1) remain or leave 2) if leave, deal or no deal
It shouldn't be a 3-way referendum. That is asking for trouble, confusion, and complaints of non-legitimacy. But the second of these is preferable to the first. In the first, consider that I am pro-Remain but I fear that if it gets to Q2 Leave will win. How should I vote on Q1?
Best is to have just a single question: Leave or Remain. If WTO is the best kind of Leave that Parliament can come up with, fine. I don't want to wipe MPs' bottoms for them. Do it once and they'll want it all the time.
Absolutely let’s go with the second option.
Fortunately we already asked the first part of the second option (Remain or Leave) so can skip that and just go to deal or no deal
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
On the other hand, if they agreed to cancel Brexit, it provides them with a number of advantages. We did actually contribute quite a bit (other than money) during our membership including a balance to the more protectionist policies as well as increased awareness of social issues and discrimination.
If they cancel it, they do get the benefit of no worries about frictionless trade, backstops, etc. The GFA stays intact and teh EU has two votes at the UN.
Oh yes - they also get our money.
Cancelling Brexit is good for the EU. The real question is what will the UK do about our political lunatic fringe who have stirred up this current shambles?
All good points but the final point is the clincher for me.
Even as a Remainer, I think we'd be better off taking May's deal, protecting our economy, fulfilling the referendum result, and putting Farage and co out to grass.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
As others have pointed out, no we did not, so not thinking this is the time for a GE is very much keeping a sense of perspective, particularly as a war with an uncertain end is not a great comparator, whereas here we are on a timer and reliant upon the other party in the negotiations to extend that timer, which they would surely only do if they are to get further concessions. So more political delay and confusion aids us not.
Edit: The americans have managed it, and well done them, but the issue with Brexit is the time limits on next stages, more than level of disruption vs wartime.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
No - the other option is getting the EU to agree to cancel Brexit. That also takes "No Deal" off the table.
I'd be surprised if they would agree to cancel Brexit now - not without some serious concessions on our part.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
Putting myself in their place, I would breathe an exasperated sigh of relief.
I certainly wouldn't risk derailing the orderly resolution of this expensive annoyance in the hope of getting a bigger fish quota or whatever.
That said, the EU agencies that have already left probably won't be coming back.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
Nope. The Americans managed a Presidential election though and they even managed one in the middle of their Civil war, which I think was truly remarkable.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Now Parliament is going to deliver that no-deal Brexit.
What a splendid example of democracy in action.
No they didn't, the people voted for 'the easiest Deal in history'
No, they just simply voted to leave the EU and it’s institutions . The ballot just said do you want to remain or leave the EU, How we achieve that is for the Government to decide . Sometimes a short term hit (if it’s no deal )is worth medium to long term gains and freedom to determine our own destiny,
But equally, May's deal satisfies the referendum result.
Yes. People defending the support for no deal on the basis of the simplicity of the ballot paper cannot also pretend that May's Deal Brexit is not real Brexit, as other critical figures of it have claimed. It would be wise to get a Brexit which satisfies as many of the concerns that led to people voting leave as possible, while being reasonable to those who wanted to remain, but if we are to get into a 'does it satisfy the referendum question' argument literally any option that has us leave does that.
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
As others have pointed out, no we did not, so not thinking this is the time for a GE is very much keeping a sense of perspective, particularly as a war with an uncertain end is not a great comparator, whereas here we are on a timer and reliant upon the other party in the negotiations to extend that timer, which they would surely only do if they are to get further concessions. So more political delay and confusion aids us not.
The 1945 election was controversial as well, and arrived at after several other options had been explored and discarded. Churchill wanted a referendum, Attlee an end date, and the King and John Anderson a continuation of the government of national unity.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Yes, well absent a massive series of u-turns from dozens upon dozens of MPs that is not going to happen, and it's a choice between some very naiive assumptions on either side.
An attempt at renegotiation from someone I suppose, if it fails, then has the possibility of the current deal being tried again (though only the Tories could try it, since if Labour to try we'd need a handover of power or GE requiring a delay, which has its own problems).
Putting all effort into last ditch prep for no deal is probably the most sensible move, but for the same reason not enough has been done already, too many are too opposed to no deal (they claim) to let that prep happen anyway.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Labour think NOW is the time to force another election?
LOL - I know the trots need chaos but ffs.
I'll defend them with this - if the positions were reversed the Tories would do exactly the same. But I actually think a GE right now is unjustifiable. It has to take a certain amount of time, time we can ill afford (personally I thought GE 2017 was a waste of the time we had) even if an extension is agreed, and it could result in just as or gods forbid even more confused a parliamentary situation, after which the same issues as now arrives. It is purely about trying to get in power, which is not in itself an ignoble aim for a political party, but now is really not the time when it has even less guarantee of fixing things than other options.
Didn't we have two general elections during the second world war? It might not be easy or convenient but let us keep a sense of perspective.
Nope. The Americans managed a Presidential election though and they even managed one in the middle of their Civil war, which I think was truly remarkable.
It's because delaying it would have required a constitutional amendment - one of which took two centuries to pass.
Wilson did have an innovative plan for 1916 if he lost though to hand over power immediately rather than have a lame duck period:
Unlike the supine UK the French are still able to walk upright and do not act like sheeple when their politicians stiff them. If only they could sell the UK some backbones.
Everyone gets my puns on doors, but not my awesome puns about the French being always at it! Very annoying.
They missed my puns about the bangs on Nelson's Column as well.
Did you know the story about the lions at Nelson’s Column? It would appeal to your sense of humour...
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
The 1945 election was controversial as well, and arrived at after several other options had been explored and discarded. Churchill wanted a referendum, Attlee an end date, and the King and John Anderson a continuation of the government of national unity.
There's plenty of evidence the wartime concensus was breaking down by the spring of 1945 as both Conservative and Labour politicians wanted to go back to "business as usual". The likes of Brendan Bracken and Nye Bevan were soon attacking each other and with the end of the war in Europe the likelihood of a GE (the first since 1935) increased dramatically.
Some argued for the election to be delayed until the end of hostilities in the Far East but that was not seen as an impediment to a resumption of normal political activity.
Unlike the supine UK the French are still able to walk upright and do not act like sheeple when their politicians stiff them. If only they could sell the UK some backbones.
Everyone gets my puns on doors, but not my awesome puns about the French being always at it! Very annoying.
They missed my puns about the bangs on Nelson's Column as well.
Did you know the story about the lions at Nelson’s Column? It would appeal to your sense of humour...
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
You’re such a drama queen. Theresa May has it all in hand.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
I am very opn minded on it happening. It certainly is the least bad option
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
You’re such a drama queen. Theresa May has it all in hand.
I think you just lost 10 'woke' points for using the term drama queen.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
I think it will suddenly become much less popular if we don't pass it and the realistic alternative kicks in.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
The fate of the MPs is much less important than the fate of the UK. What next for the UK?
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
She should keep presenting it every week - through Christmas if necessary - until the HoC get it right.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
I think it will suddenly become much less popular if we don't pass it and the realistic alternative kicks in.
At which point no MP is going to want an election if they are all being tarred with that brush!
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
The fate of the MPs is much less important than the fate of the UK. What next for the UK?
Nobody knows. Which is sort of the point, really.
What about the global economy as well? It's already looking fragile. A chaotic break could easily freeze world financial markets again. Then what?
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
You’re such a drama queen. Theresa May has it all in hand.
A personal letter from my wife and I have gone to TM and Guto Bebb, our mp, today supporting her deal
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
She should keep presenting it every week - through Christmas if necessary - until the HoC get it right.
Kind of wish the ERG had succeeding in a vote of no confidence being called which she would win, so that she was secure enough in the role to do just that, it would be hilarious. The Commons keeps telling her no, come up with something else, and she says no right back.
Not necessarily sterling governance, but we're not about to get that anyway.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
I think it will suddenly become much less popular if we don't pass it and the realistic alternative kicks in.
At which point no MP is going to want an election if they are all being tarred with that brush!
Too late. There will be one within three years. People will remember.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
You’re such a drama queen. Theresa May has it all in hand.
A personal letter from my wife and I have gone to TM and Guto Bebb, our mp, today supporting her deal
I'll happily get personal with any supporters of No Deal, that is to say, voting against this deal.
Haven't the supposedly centrist Cs said that they'll work with Vox?
Vox are a curious beast. They're economically quite centrist, and although they're Eurosceptic by Spanish standards, they're not exactly UKIP. They are the most vocal in terms of opposing further Islamic immigration into Spain, but are far from the FN.
I can't think of a good comparison for them.
Perhaps closer to Farage UKIP than Batten/Yaxley Lennon UKIP. I certainly think they'll be attractive to all those lovely Fascist saluters recently showing solidarity with Spain indissoluble.
That's the trouble nowadays, you acclimatise to one fruitcake, loony & closet racist party and then 2 or 3 more extreme ones turn up.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
I think it will suddenly become much less popular if we don't pass it and the realistic alternative kicks in.
At which point no MP is going to want an election if they are all being tarred with that brush!
Too late. There will be one within three years. People will remember.
They'll remember their own tribalism. Who, exactly, will be defeating them? A series of 'you should have taken the damn deal' candidates, working on a cross party basis to take down Labour, LDs, SNP, 100 Tories etc? Come on.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
She should keep presenting it every week - through Christmas if necessary - until the HoC get it right.
Kind of wish the ERG had succeeding in a vote of no confidence being called which she would win, so that she was secure enough in the role to do just that, it would be hilarious. The Commons keeps telling her no, come up with something else, and she says no right back.
Not necessarily sterling governance, but we're not about to get that anyway.
Yes, a similar thought crossed my mind this morning... Maybe tomorrow's the day for No 10 to provoke (and win) the VoNC against May
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
The fate of the MPs is much less important than the fate of the UK. What next for the UK?
Nobody knows. Which is sort of the point, really.
What about the global economy as well? It's already looking fragile. A chaotic break could easily freeze world financial markets again. Then what?
I am no lover of the EU but in the end I am not prepared to put 20 years of hard work building my company at risk from some dodgy adventure with no plan. Scotland has never trusted the English to protect the union and it is really their decision now. A vote in the Scottish parliament would support staying in the EU versus the union and a referendum if required would support this view.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
I can see hoping that, but you cannot seriously 'believe' they will lose their seats. Opposing it is too popular to see so many people lose their seats.
I think it will suddenly become much less popular if we don't pass it and the realistic alternative kicks in.
At which point no MP is going to want an election if they are all being tarred with that brush!
Too late. There will be one within three years. People will remember.
They'll remember their own tribalism. Who, exactly, will be defeating them? A series of 'you should have taken the damn deal' candidates, working on a cross party basis to take down Labour, LDs, SNP, 100 Tories etc? Come on.
Anyone who isn't tainted will be in a strong position to win. We saw that with the Tories in 1997 five years after Black Wednesday. Some right idiots got elected in the safest of seats, because they were not Tories.
As a remainer I see the most likely way we remain in the EU coming from a no deal crash. The government will quickly lose any last vestige of authority it has when it becomes clear there has been no real planning for the scenario.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Wonderful.
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Good post
That doesn’t look as though that’s going to happen. Then what?
Disaster.
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
You’re such a drama queen. Theresa May has it all in hand.
A personal letter from my wife and I have gone to TM and Guto Bebb, our mp, today supporting her deal
I'll happily get personal with any supporters of No Deal, that is to say, voting against this deal.
But you would disapprove, I know.
Any supporter of no deal is foolish ( I actually wanted to use a different description but it is not my style)
Unlike the supine UK the French are still able to walk upright and do not act like sheeple when their politicians stiff them. If only they could sell the UK some backbones.
Everyone gets my puns on doors, but not my awesome puns about the French being always at it! Very annoying.
They missed my puns about the bangs on Nelson's Column as well.
Did you know the story about the lions at Nelson’s Column? It would appeal to your sense of humour...
No. Did they suck?
If you’ve ever looked closely at them there’s something a little ... odd ... about them
Landseer was commissioned to design them. Problem was he had never been to Africa or seen a lion so he had no idea what they looked like. Fortunately (albeit not for the lion) one at London Zoo had recently died so he had them send over the remains.
Now this was obviously a very important commission so he was keen to get it just right. However he took so long about the sketches that the lion began to decompose and the hind quarters fell off before he’d drawn them. In a panic he did the only thing he could think of and used his pet Labrador as a model for the lion’s legs and back....
I guess that shows you have to be careful when working with a deadline.
Unlike the supine UK the French are still able to walk upright and do not act like sheeple when their politicians stiff them. If only they could sell the UK some backbones.
Everyone gets my puns on doors, but not my awesome puns about the French being always at it! Very annoying.
They missed my puns about the bangs on Nelson's Column as well.
Did you know the story about the lions at Nelson’s Column? It would appeal to your sense of humour...
No. Did they suck?
If you’ve ever looked closely at them there’s something a little ... odd ... about them
Landseer was commissioned to design them. Problem was he had never been to Africa or seen a lion so he had no idea what they looked like. Fortunately (albeit not for the lion) one at London Zoo had recently died so he had them send over the remains.
Now this was obviously a very important commission so he was keen to get it just right. However he took so long about the sketches that the lion began to decompose and the hind quarters fell off before he’d drawn them. In a panic he did the only thing he could think of and used his pet Labrador as a model for the lion’s legs and back....
I guess that shows you have to be careful when working with a deadline.
Comments
That is why I think what will eventually get through the HoC is this WA (perhaps tinkered with here and there) plus a PD that is made to look a little 'softer' than the current one.
Less sure than I used to be that May will be the PM who gets it there but on balance I still think so.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6451805/Corbyn-REFUSES-sign-BBC-debate-unless-format-changed.html
Even I might watch I'm a Celeb rather than that....
I'm left with the view referendums (or referenda) won't be terribly popular (like AV, pineapple on pizza etc) for some considerable time after this experience.
If a Party has rejoining the EU in its election manifesto and wins an overall majority at a GE don't they have a clear mandate to proceed with the policy? You'd think so - the SNP has the conundrum of not only having to convince Scotland but England as well. It might of course work to the advantage of some English politicians to see the Scottish seats removed from Westminster. The question though is whether one part of the Union needs the consent of all parts of the Union before leaving (basically the same as the EU I suppose).
As for the main topic, I've always been opposed to another vote - a vote with three options allows 34% of the vote to decide - legitimacy? I'm not convinced.
I'm much less frightened or worried about No Deal than some on here (especially those in favour of May's Deal for whom it is their Project Fear). I do think the Government has some serious questions to answer about a lack of preparation and whether the responsibility sits with May (ultimately) or really Davis/Raab/Barclay I'm less sure.
We could have several days/weeks of coalition negotiations afterwards - god knows where that leaves us...
Never seen these Vox mentioned much before - are they a rising force nationally or more of an Andalucian thing?
I can't think of a good comparison for them.
Social Conservatism would seem to be the best description for them. Which has a long tradition in Spain, and not surprising given how much the country has liberalised in the last 40 years.
The flaw is that realistically taking no deal off the table is only possible by agreeing the deal. Which is why they are May's only hope of getting the deal through.
I mean, put yourself in their place - who can blame for being totally pissed off with the UK?
The only thing at this stage that opponents of No deal can do to prevent it, that is within their control to guarantee, is to vote for May's deal.
There appears to be a naive assumption from leavers that somehow the country will come together in the case of a hard brexit. I see absolutely no evidence for this.
Scotland will not leave the eu in a hard Brexit scenario. The question is only if England will go out on its own
To be quite frank, I don't care overmuch about the EU one way or another. But I voted Remain becuase I believe that the economic dislocation leaving would cause outweighed the marginal increase in political sovereignty we would gain.
The idea of causing economic Armageddon to rejoin an organisation as corrupt and ineffectual as the EU due to some abstract political theorising is anathema to me and I am sure to many other Remainers. It would certainly not be worth remaining or rejoining at such a price. It is certainly not something to cause hardship and misery for.
And it is for these reasons that, having lost the key arguments, I want to see Parliament grow up and pass this deal.
Even on the earliest possible start date, 7th July 1937, we would still only have had one election.
Although on the latest technical end date we have so far had 20 elections and counting in the Second World War.
If they cancel it, they do get the benefit of no worries about frictionless trade, backstops, etc. The GFA stays intact and teh EU has two votes at the UN.
Oh yes - they also get our money.
Cancelling Brexit is good for the EU. The real question is what will the UK do about our political lunatic fringe who have stirred up this current shambles?
Fortunately we already asked the first part of the second option (Remain or Leave) so can skip that and just go to deal or no deal
Even as a Remainer, I think we'd be better off taking May's deal, protecting our economy, fulfilling the referendum result, and putting Farage and co out to grass.
Edit: The americans have managed it, and well done them, but the issue with Brexit is the time limits on next stages, more than level of disruption vs wartime.
I certainly wouldn't risk derailing the orderly resolution of this expensive annoyance in the hope of getting a bigger fish quota or whatever.
That said, the EU agencies that have already left probably won't be coming back.
An attempt at renegotiation from someone I suppose, if it fails, then has the possibility of the current deal being tried again (though only the Tories could try it, since if Labour to try we'd need a handover of power or GE requiring a delay, which has its own problems).
Putting all effort into last ditch prep for no deal is probably the most sensible move, but for the same reason not enough has been done already, too many are too opposed to no deal (they claim) to let that prep happen anyway.
Then there is some referendum option.
Which is least worst?
Wilson did have an innovative plan for 1916 if he lost though to hand over power immediately rather than have a lame duck period:
http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/theoryandpractice/2013/10/if_woodrow_wilson_had_lost_the.html
And I hope and believe that every single last MP who votes against this deal loses their seats, as some small compensation for those whose jobs and lives they wantonly destroyed by their complacency.
Some argued for the election to be delayed until the end of hostilities in the Far East but that was not seen as an impediment to a resumption of normal political activity.
What about the global economy as well? It's already looking fragile. A chaotic break could easily freeze world financial markets again. Then what?
Not necessarily sterling governance, but we're not about to get that anyway.
But you would disapprove, I know.
That's the trouble nowadays, you acclimatise to one fruitcake, loony & closet racist party and then 2 or 3 more extreme ones turn up.
NEW THREAD
I am no lover of the EU but in the end I am not prepared to put 20 years of hard work building my company at risk from some dodgy adventure with no plan. Scotland has never trusted the English to protect the union and it is really their decision now. A vote in the Scottish parliament would support staying in the EU versus the union and a referendum if required would support this view.
Landseer was commissioned to design them. Problem was he had never been to Africa or seen a lion so he had no idea what they looked like. Fortunately (albeit not for the lion) one at London Zoo had recently died so he had them send over the remains.
Now this was obviously a very important commission so he was keen to get it just right. However he took so long about the sketches that the lion began to decompose and the hind quarters fell off before he’d drawn them. In a panic he did the only thing he could think of and used his pet Labrador as a model for the lion’s legs and back....
I guess that shows you have to be careful when working with a deadline.