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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    I'd like to see what the BoE's zombie apocalypse scenario/forecast looks like. I daresay that's not going to be good for house prices.

    In a zombie apocalypse, there may well be a shortage of buyers, however money becomes of little consequence. Fortifiable houses may well improve in value.
  • For all the talk and bluster the meaningful vote is going to be a moment of political drama and truth.

    The government by opening it up to all kinds of amendments including a second referendum, delaying A50, renegotiation, or actually remaining will show each and every individual mps voting position and must indicate where compromise is available, unless of course the last vote is on TM deal and by process of elimantion it passes

    Now I am sure some on here may identify procedural errors in the above but it is going to be political theatre anyway
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZowK0NAvig
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Many facts not mentioned in the story, I am sure, but even so was this really worth a custodial sentence 2 years on from the event?

    A woman has been jailed by the Irish courts for causing criminal damage to a €1.50 (£1.30) packet of crisps.

    Kathleen McDonagh, aged 25, opened some Pringles in a Tesco in the city of Cork before she had paid for them.

    The woman had been banned from the store, and told the court she opened the crisps so that security would be forced to let her pay for it.

    Instead, she was sentenced to two months in prison for damaging the product, which could no longer be sold.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46371201

    Also, it cannot be easy to get banned from a Tesco, I would think.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    rcs1000 said:

    Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:

    https://brexitcentral.com/time-chancellor-came-clean-absurd-project-fear-economic-modelling/

    Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."

    I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.

    He starts from a politically impossible premise.
    We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
    So rather like the EU?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Treasury forecasts the economic decline under different Brexits:

    Norway -1.4%
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
    Canada style FTA -4.9% to -6.7%
    No Deal -7.7% to -9.3%

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-will-make-us-worse-off-chancellor-philip-hammond-admits-a4002476.html?amp

    Yep, looser and better than Chequers.

    ERG morons too dumb to see it.
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%

    "Better than Chequers"?
    Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
    You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
    I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
    Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.

    But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
    I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    For all the talk and bluster the meaningful vote is going to be a moment of political drama and truth.

    The government by opening it up to all kinds of amendments including a second referendum, delaying A50, renegotiation, or actually remaining will show each and every individual mps voting position and must indicate where compromise is available, unless of course the last vote is on TM deal and by process of elimantion it passes

    Now I am sure some on here may identify procedural errors in the above but it is going to be political theatre anyway

    Theatre is right. I agree with you about it being a moment of truth. Our representatives have, hopefully, weighed it all in the balance and made the choice they believe is best for the nation, and none of them should feel worried or ashamed for that, whichever way they vote.

    I just hope May survives long enough for it to get to a vote, there still seem to be people trying to pull it because of the expected defeat (to what purpose? A new deal will not magically appear until this one is ruled out)
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Foxy said:

    I'd like to see what the BoE's zombie apocalypse scenario/forecast looks like. I daresay that's not going to be good for house prices.

    In a zombie apocalypse, there may well be a shortage of buyers, however money becomes of little consequence. Fortifiable houses may well improve in value.
    The inflation measures will have to add shotgun shells to the standard shopping baskets.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Treasury forecasts the economic decline under different Brexits:

    Norway -1.4%
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
    Canada style FTA -4.9% to -6.7%
    No Deal -7.7% to -9.3%

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-will-make-us-worse-off-chancellor-philip-hammond-admits-a4002476.html?amp

    Yep, looser and better than Chequers.

    ERG morons too dumb to see it.
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%

    "Better than Chequers"?
    Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
    You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
    I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
    Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.

    But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
    I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
    I do think they are, in pretending there is no real risk of no deal, at the least being irresponsible.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:

    https://brexitcentral.com/time-chancellor-came-clean-absurd-project-fear-economic-modelling/

    Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."

    I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.

    He starts from a politically impossible premise.
    We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
    So rather like the EU?
    Correct.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Pulpstar said:


    I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.

    But we don't yet know how good remaining gets. Until we do, nobody is going to settle.

    As Big G hints, part of the reason why everyone seems to be hardening their position against May's deal, is because everyone will be forced to show their cards in the aftermath of the vote failing.

    Only once everyone knows what everyone else is holding, will we (hopefully) see Parliament attempting to come to a view on a possible way forward.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Treasury forecasts the economic decline under different Brexits:

    Norway -1.4%
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
    Canada style FTA -4.9% to -6.7%
    No Deal -7.7% to -9.3%

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-will-make-us-worse-off-chancellor-philip-hammond-admits-a4002476.html?amp

    Yep, looser and better than Chequers.

    ERG morons too dumb to see it.
    Chequers -0.6% to -2.5%
    May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%

    "Better than Chequers"?
    Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
    You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
    I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
    Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.

    But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
    I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
    I do think they are, in pretending there is no real risk of no deal, at the least being irresponsible.
    They're all insulated whatever happens, it's just one big old Westminster game of brinkmanship between the ERG and remain forces. Contemptible for both of them.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    Coming late to this. On topic: Nicola would wipe the floor with both of them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    This story has the potential to be enourmas given Epstein's connections.

    Who knew what when.

    https://twitter.com/MiamiHerald/status/1067778749276536832?s=19

    Linking to Trump at a secondcremove but not Epstein holiday partner Bill Clinton?

    (Just to be clear, I have never heard any credible allegations against Clinton on this sort of matter so there is no implication otherwise)
    It is not Clinton but an establishment figure in the UK!
    They’ve both been linked and both deny anything untoward

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/10/09/the-sex-slave-scandal-that-exposed-pedophile-billionaire-jeffrey-epstein/amp/
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    Theo said:

    Project Fear wasn't believed last time, why should rehashing the exact same arguments convince anyone this time? What's changed? We had a referendum, we had project fear and the people said "we don't believe you, let's leave anyway".

    Corbyn wasn't likely to come to power last time.
    Nor is he this time, there's 4 years til the next General Election.

    We had the vote, now its time to JFDI. Just ... do it.
    You think this parliament is lasting 4 more years? I know the Tories will not be keen on one, but I struggle to see how they'll manage that as a functioning government looks tough even if the DUP are brought back on line.
    Now less than 3.5 years to scheduled Polling Day on 5th May 2022.
  • Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
  • Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I think it's antinomy. You cannot lie with sincerity, because if you're sincere, then it isn't a lie, and verse visa.

    As Flanders and Swann had it:

    Always be sincere, especially when you don’t mean it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    justin124 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theo said:

    Project Fear wasn't believed last time, why should rehashing the exact same arguments convince anyone this time? What's changed? We had a referendum, we had project fear and the people said "we don't believe you, let's leave anyway".

    Corbyn wasn't likely to come to power last time.
    Nor is he this time, there's 4 years til the next General Election.

    We had the vote, now its time to JFDI. Just ... do it.
    You think this parliament is lasting 4 more years? I know the Tories will not be keen on one, but I struggle to see how they'll manage that as a functioning government looks tough even if the DUP are brought back on line.
    Now less than 3.5 years to scheduled Polling Day on 5th May 2022.
    If it makes it half way through scheduled I'll be stunned..

    It would be somewhat appropriate to last until 2020 - get us back on track to where we would have been had 2017 not occurred.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
    Some of them are probably ultra scottishers.
  • Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    This story has the potential to be enourmas given Epstein's connections.

    Who knew what when.

    https://twitter.com/MiamiHerald/status/1067778749276536832?s=19

    Linking to Trump at a secondcremove but not Epstein holiday partner Bill Clinton?

    (Just to be clear, I have never heard any credible allegations against Clinton on this sort of matter so there is no implication otherwise)
    Yes, this clearly has the scope to annihilate the Clinton's too but the immediate link to someone in Trump's cabinet is bigley.
    Quite a link closer to home too, as I recall.
    Mentioned in the article.
  • Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:

    https://brexitcentral.com/time-chancellor-came-clean-absurd-project-fear-economic-modelling/

    Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."

    I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.

    He starts from a politically impossible premise.
    We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
    So rather like the EU?
    UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?

    So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?

    (Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
  • Pulpstar said:


    I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.

    But we don't yet know how good remaining gets. Until we do, nobody is going to settle.

    As Big G hints, part of the reason why everyone seems to be hardening their position against May's deal, is because everyone will be forced to show their cards in the aftermath of the vote failing.

    Only once everyone knows what everyone else is holding, will we (hopefully) see Parliament attempting to come to a view on a possible way forward.
    Good to agree
  • Coming late to this. On topic: Nicola would wipe the floor with both of them.

    Which is why she's not getting anywhere near it.......
  • The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.

    If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.

    Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.

    Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.
  • On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    kle4 said:

    Nobel prize-winning economist says Carney is out on a limb with these projections and motivated by politics not economics.

    https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1067854650471313408
    I hope Carney is ready for a backlash.

    I think a basic position of not believing economic predictions rarely hurts individuals, but I'm sure Krugman has also been very wrong about things before, and motivated by politics.
    Niall Ferguson did a brilliant take down of Krugman a few years ago.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.

    If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.

    Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.

    Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.

    In defence of the hardline remainers, while I agree with you they are at times just as guilty as the brexiteers they complain about about making assumptions, and while I think there is a not inconsequential change the EU members make some problems in the event A50 is not unilaterally revocable (I find it hard to believe it would be), I think the chances of that are not huge.

    Though it depends on if someone is a continuity remainer or a defeatest one - the latter we've seen comments the likes of which the EU no longer cares about us and are glad to see us gone, in which case trouble would be likely, and the former believe the EU would welcome us back if we just changed our minds.
  • Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
    Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge

    If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:

    https://brexitcentral.com/time-chancellor-came-clean-absurd-project-fear-economic-modelling/

    Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."

    I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.

    He starts from a politically impossible premise.
    We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
    So rather like the EU?
    UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?

    So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?

    (Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
    That was an illegal act, and the rules were enforced by food inspectors working to same terms as the UK, so not sure what your point is.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    Vigilante justice via Twittermob is one of the rather depressing features of modern life.
  • The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.

    If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.

    Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.

    Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.

    I did make that point yesterday and it would be a blow to remain if the A50 requires unanimous EU consent, indeed they may rule it is irrevocable
  • Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge

    If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest

    I'm not campaigning for an independent England though because I don't want to break up the union. I'd simply be quite happy for the Scots (and delighted for the Irish) if they felt able to stand on their own two feet. Like I felt happy for my brother when he moved in with his girlfriend. Like I'll be happy for my daughters when they grow up and start their own family home.

    I'm quite happy for England to be a grandfatherly figure to the other nations that used to depend upon us. But for as long as they want to live in our home, I'm OK with that too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    4-3 to Forest after 53 minutes....what a game!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    kle4 said:

    Many facts not mentioned in the story, I am sure, but even so was this really worth a custodial sentence 2 years on from the event?

    A woman has been jailed by the Irish courts for causing criminal damage to a €1.50 (£1.30) packet of crisps.

    Kathleen McDonagh, aged 25, opened some Pringles in a Tesco in the city of Cork before she had paid for them.

    The woman had been banned from the store, and told the court she opened the crisps so that security would be forced to let her pay for it.

    Instead, she was sentenced to two months in prison for damaging the product, which could no longer be sold.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46371201

    Also, it cannot be easy to get banned from a Tesco, I would think.

    Ridiculous, unless she'd already done the same thing many times before.
  • Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    Horrible story. What have we become as a nation
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:

    https://brexitcentral.com/time-chancellor-came-clean-absurd-project-fear-economic-modelling/

    Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."

    I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.

    He starts from a politically impossible premise.
    We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
    So rather like the EU?
    UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?

    So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?

    (Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
    That was an illegal act, and the rules were enforced by food inspectors working to same terms as the UK, so not sure what your point is.

    Plus it was intra EU trade not third country trade to the EU.
  • Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    And the gofundme page now over £100,000:

    https://www.gofundme.com/jamal-from-huddersfield-bullied-at-school
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
  • Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge

    If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest

    I'm not campaigning for an independent England though because I don't want to break up the union. I'd simply be quite happy for the Scots (and delighted for the Irish) if they felt able to stand on their own two feet. Like I felt happy for my brother when he moved in with his girlfriend. Like I'll be happy for my daughters when they grow up and start their own family home.

    I'm quite happy for England to be a grandfatherly figure to the other nations that used to depend upon us. But for as long as they want to live in our home, I'm OK with that too.
    Your last paragraph is insulting and patronising nonsense
  • Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    Horrible story. What have we become as a nation
    One that raises £100,000 for the victim in a day.....
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    edited November 2018

    4-3 to Forest after 53 minutes....what a game!

    Hope Villa continue to defend like that when they play Boro on Saturday!
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    Wasn't there a case like this on "Press" a few weeks ago?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited November 2018
    justin124 said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
    Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837

    Pulpstar said:

    On that Huddersfield bullying case:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847

    Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.

    Police protection at the perpetrators house now.
    Horrible story. What have we become as a nation
    It is. However, such things have sadly always gone on...but without ubiquitous devices to record, disseminate and then round up a mob.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union


    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
    Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge

    If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
    Why shouldn't people campaign for an independent England? The Union was a dead letter when devolution was passed. It's just a slow withering away. It's genuinely odd that Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists are hunky-dory, but English nationalism is somehow beyond the pale.
  • John_M said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union


    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
    Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
    Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge

    If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
    Why shouldn't people campaign for an independent England? The Union was a dead letter when devolution was passed. It's just a slow withering away. It's genuinely odd that Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists are hunky-dory, but English nationalism is somehow beyond the pale.
    Absolutely they should but need to be open about it and stand as a party
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 595

    It was a Depeche Mode lyric - from "Lie to Me" on the Some Great Reward album (1984).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajqYgOmqGyg

    Surely better to follow a Policy of Truth?

    https://youtu.be/M2VBmHOYpV8
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
    Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
    I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - SNP -or Plaid Cymru. I grew up in Pembrokeshire - 'little England beyond Wales' - and have always felt culturally British rather than Welsh.. Were I a schoolboy there today , I would bitterly resent - and rebel against - having the Welsh language rammed down my throat , and at being denied the opportunity to study French, German & Latin
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    edited November 2018

    4-3 to Forest after 53 minutes....what a game!

    Hope Villa continue to defend like that when they play Boro on Saturday!
    Villa now lead 5-4!!

    EDIT: who do they think they are, Forfar and Fife?!
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
    Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
    I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - SNP -or Plaid Cymru. I grew up in Pembrokeshire - 'little England beyond Wales' - and have always felt culturally British rather than Welsh.. Were I a schoolboy there today , I would bitterly resent - and rebel against - having the Welsh language rammed down my throat , and at being denied the opportunity to study French, German & Latin
    Not sure where you get your last sentence from.

    My eldest granddaughter has just taken her gcse in french and welsh and passed both.

    Also while I am half Welsh / English and my wife is a Scot we both are unionists. However, my children and grand children identfy as Welsh first, British second
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?

    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
    Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
    I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms
    I suspect some might describe 'Unionism' as 'nationalism for the Union' - but I know what you mean.

    Contrast Mrs May & Ms Sturgeon's responses to questions......

    Mrs May; "Its worse under Labour",
    Ms Sturgeon: "Its worse in England"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    10-man Forest bring it back to 5-5......
  • dodrade said:

    It was a Depeche Mode lyric - from "Lie to Me" on the Some Great Reward album (1984).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajqYgOmqGyg

    Surely better to follow a Policy of Truth?

    https://youtu.be/M2VBmHOYpV8
    You'll see your problems multiplied
    If you continually decide
    To faithfully pursue
    The policy of truth
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
    I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
    Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
    /blockquote>

    Not sure where you get your last sentence from.

    My eldest granddaughter has just taken her gcse in french and welsh and passed both.

    Also while I am half Welsh / English and my wife is a Scot we both are unionists. However, my children and grand children identfy as Welsh first, British second
    My last sentence relates to my awareness that pupils at school today in Haverfordwest study Welsh up to GCSE plus one other foreign language. I was able to study three - including Latin. No objection,however, to Welsh being available as an option.
  • Scott_P said:
    Cannot argue with that but how it happens is unsure
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    edited November 2018
    .
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobel prize-winning economist says Carney is out on a limb with these projections and motivated by politics not economics.

    https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1067854650471313408
    I hope Carney is ready for a backlash.

    I think a basic position of not believing economic predictions rarely hurts individuals, but I'm sure Krugman has also been very wrong about things before, and motivated by politics.
    Niall Ferguson did a brilliant take down of Krugman a few years ago.
    They're both brilliant, but on economics Krugman is the more brilliant. However his weakness is that he doesn't hold back his political attitudes.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,501
    edited November 2018
    Well here's something I haven't seen before from the Irish Times: "WTO rules thus offer the basis of a bespoke solution to the Irish problem, rather than posing an obstacle that threatens to derail Brexit altogether."
    [Edit - explanation: Using the WTO Security Exemption by both UK and Irish governments to allow an exemption from tariffs across the border. Also a bargaining chip for the Republic to use against Brussels over Corporation Tax rates]
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/trump-s-tariff-tactics-could-make-no-deal-brexit-work-for-ireland-1.3711188
  • Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.

    It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.

    If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
    Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.

    But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
    I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
    I am another who does not care about the Union at all. I would be very happy to see Scots being able to decide all their own laws, not just the scraps they are allowed from Westminster.
    You were going on the other day about people who support staying in the EU as traitors, yet today you are calling for the end of the United Kingdom....
    That is an outright lie. Typical of you I am afraid.
  • Well here's something I haven't seen before from the Irish Times: "WTO rules thus offer the basis of a bespoke solution to the Irish problem, rather than posing an obstacle that threatens to derail Brexit altogether."
    [Edit - explanation: Using the WTO Security Exemption by both UK and Irish governments to allow an exemption from tariffs across the border. Also a bargaining chip for the Republic to use against Brussels over Corporation Tax rates]
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/trump-s-tariff-tactics-could-make-no-deal-brexit-work-for-ireland-1.3711188

    Well written and entirely logical.

    If the EU wasn't abusing the Irish border in order to screw the future relationship for Britain (as Selymar has already gloated) this could have been agreed months ago.
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