I'd like to see what the BoE's zombie apocalypse scenario/forecast looks like. I daresay that's not going to be good for house prices.
In a zombie apocalypse, there may well be a shortage of buyers, however money becomes of little consequence. Fortifiable houses may well improve in value.
For all the talk and bluster the meaningful vote is going to be a moment of political drama and truth.
The government by opening it up to all kinds of amendments including a second referendum, delaying A50, renegotiation, or actually remaining will show each and every individual mps voting position and must indicate where compromise is available, unless of course the last vote is on TM deal and by process of elimantion it passes
Now I am sure some on here may identify procedural errors in the above but it is going to be political theatre anyway
Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:
Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."
I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.
He starts from a politically impossible premise.
We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
Chequers -0.6% to -2.5% May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
"Better than Chequers"?
Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.
But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
For all the talk and bluster the meaningful vote is going to be a moment of political drama and truth.
The government by opening it up to all kinds of amendments including a second referendum, delaying A50, renegotiation, or actually remaining will show each and every individual mps voting position and must indicate where compromise is available, unless of course the last vote is on TM deal and by process of elimantion it passes
Now I am sure some on here may identify procedural errors in the above but it is going to be political theatre anyway
Theatre is right. I agree with you about it being a moment of truth. Our representatives have, hopefully, weighed it all in the balance and made the choice they believe is best for the nation, and none of them should feel worried or ashamed for that, whichever way they vote.
I just hope May survives long enough for it to get to a vote, there still seem to be people trying to pull it because of the expected defeat (to what purpose? A new deal will not magically appear until this one is ruled out)
I'd like to see what the BoE's zombie apocalypse scenario/forecast looks like. I daresay that's not going to be good for house prices.
In a zombie apocalypse, there may well be a shortage of buyers, however money becomes of little consequence. Fortifiable houses may well improve in value.
The inflation measures will have to add shotgun shells to the standard shopping baskets.
Chequers -0.6% to -2.5% May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
"Better than Chequers"?
Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.
But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
I do think they are, in pretending there is no real risk of no deal, at the least being irresponsible.
Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:
Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."
I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.
He starts from a politically impossible premise.
We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
But we don't yet know how good remaining gets. Until we do, nobody is going to settle.
As Big G hints, part of the reason why everyone seems to be hardening their position against May's deal, is because everyone will be forced to show their cards in the aftermath of the vote failing.
Only once everyone knows what everyone else is holding, will we (hopefully) see Parliament attempting to come to a view on a possible way forward.
Chequers -0.6% to -2.5% May's agreed Deal -2.1% to -3.9%
"Better than Chequers"?
Yep. It’s better than Chequers.
You actually THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A LOWER RATE OF ECONOMIC GROWTH? I cannot understand why usually normal rational people think lowering the ability of the UK to grow in the future is good. Unless you have signed up to Corbyn's agenda and that will not end well. Lower growth means less scope to do things like investing in the military, cutting taxes for businesses or individuals and other public spending decisions....
I think we're a long way past what anyone wants by now
Not at all. I’m happy with the deal and it’s better than expected. I’m not even that worried by the backstop anymore.
But, it doesn’t matter what I think. We will end up bouncing back into a fully federal EU because we are governed by a plethora of retards.
I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
I do think they are, in pretending there is no real risk of no deal, at the least being irresponsible.
They're all insulated whatever happens, it's just one big old Westminster game of brinkmanship between the ERG and remain forces. Contemptible for both of them.
Project Fear wasn't believed last time, why should rehashing the exact same arguments convince anyone this time? What's changed? We had a referendum, we had project fear and the people said "we don't believe you, let's leave anyway".
Corbyn wasn't likely to come to power last time.
Nor is he this time, there's 4 years til the next General Election.
We had the vote, now its time to JFDI. Just ... do it.
You think this parliament is lasting 4 more years? I know the Tories will not be keen on one, but I struggle to see how they'll manage that as a functioning government looks tough even if the DUP are brought back on line.
Now less than 3.5 years to scheduled Polling Day on 5th May 2022.
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
Project Fear wasn't believed last time, why should rehashing the exact same arguments convince anyone this time? What's changed? We had a referendum, we had project fear and the people said "we don't believe you, let's leave anyway".
Corbyn wasn't likely to come to power last time.
Nor is he this time, there's 4 years til the next General Election.
We had the vote, now its time to JFDI. Just ... do it.
You think this parliament is lasting 4 more years? I know the Tories will not be keen on one, but I struggle to see how they'll manage that as a functioning government looks tough even if the DUP are brought back on line.
Now less than 3.5 years to scheduled Polling Day on 5th May 2022.
If it makes it half way through scheduled I'll be stunned..
It would be somewhat appropriate to last until 2020 - get us back on track to where we would have been had 2017 not occurred.
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:
Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."
I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.
He starts from a politically impossible premise.
We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
So rather like the EU?
UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?
So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?
(Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
I wanted to remain, I think k this deal is as good as leaving gets so MPs should grab it with both hands. I think ultraremainers like Lammy, Chuka and Soubry playing chicken with no deal are contemptible.
But we don't yet know how good remaining gets. Until we do, nobody is going to settle.
As Big G hints, part of the reason why everyone seems to be hardening their position against May's deal, is because everyone will be forced to show their cards in the aftermath of the vote failing.
Only once everyone knows what everyone else is holding, will we (hopefully) see Parliament attempting to come to a view on a possible way forward.
The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.
If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.
Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.
Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.
I think a basic position of not believing economic predictions rarely hurts individuals, but I'm sure Krugman has also been very wrong about things before, and motivated by politics.
Niall Ferguson did a brilliant take down of Krugman a few years ago.
The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.
If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.
Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.
Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.
In defence of the hardline remainers, while I agree with you they are at times just as guilty as the brexiteers they complain about about making assumptions, and while I think there is a not inconsequential change the EU members make some problems in the event A50 is not unilaterally revocable (I find it hard to believe it would be), I think the chances of that are not huge.
Though it depends on if someone is a continuity remainer or a defeatest one - the latter we've seen comments the likes of which the EU no longer cares about us and are glad to see us gone, in which case trouble would be likely, and the former believe the EU would welcome us back if we just changed our minds.
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:
Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."
I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.
He starts from a politically impossible premise.
We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
So rather like the EU?
UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?
So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?
(Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
That was an illegal act, and the rules were enforced by food inspectors working to same terms as the UK, so not sure what your point is.
The one thing that I don’t think has filtered through yet is that the decision in the ECJ re the unilateral revocation of Article 50 might have huge implications for a second referendum.
If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.
Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.
Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.
I did make that point yesterday and it would be a blow to remain if the A50 requires unanimous EU consent, indeed they may rule it is irrevocable
Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
I'm not campaigning for an independent England though because I don't want to break up the union. I'd simply be quite happy for the Scots (and delighted for the Irish) if they felt able to stand on their own two feet. Like I felt happy for my brother when he moved in with his girlfriend. Like I'll be happy for my daughters when they grow up and start their own family home.
I'm quite happy for England to be a grandfatherly figure to the other nations that used to depend upon us. But for as long as they want to live in our home, I'm OK with that too.
Before anyone takes the Hammond and May's Treasury's estimates of the effect of Brexit as gospel, they need to read the other side of the argument and take a view on what Minford considers to be the "absurd" assumptions used to underpin earlier forecasts:
Minford's conclusion: "What this all comes down to is, if you use the correct assumptions, you get substantial gains from Brexit under either Canada+ or a World Trade deal under WTO rules. It is only if you make the absurd assumptions embraced by Whitehall that you get the large negative effects they forecast. These assumptions – whose absurdity anyone can understand with a moment’s thought – are the skeleton in the Chancellor’s cupboard. No wonder he refuses to open the cupboard; but we must insist."
I love Patrick Minford, but for a second imagine that all tariffs were unilaterally removed. It would decimate rural England, because we'd be holding our own farmers to much higher costs (i.e. standards) than those from abroad. The number of Conservatives in rural seats - and there are a lot of them - voting in favour would be... ummm... zero.
He starts from a politically impossible premise.
We could of course say all tariffs are zero on food but you have to match our food standards to export to us and it is UK food inspectors that will visit your food producers to say yes or no.
So rather like the EU?
UK food inspectors visit EU food producers to say yes or no?
So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?
(Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
That was an illegal act, and the rules were enforced by food inspectors working to same terms as the UK, so not sure what your point is.
Plus it was intra EU trade not third country trade to the EU.
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
I'm not campaigning for an independent England though because I don't want to break up the union. I'd simply be quite happy for the Scots (and delighted for the Irish) if they felt able to stand on their own two feet. Like I felt happy for my brother when he moved in with his girlfriend. Like I'll be happy for my daughters when they grow up and start their own family home.
I'm quite happy for England to be a grandfatherly figure to the other nations that used to depend upon us. But for as long as they want to live in our home, I'm OK with that too.
Your last paragraph is insulting and patronising nonsense
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
Why shouldn't people campaign for an independent England? The Union was a dead letter when devolution was passed. It's just a slow withering away. It's genuinely odd that Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists are hunky-dory, but English nationalism is somehow beyond the pale.
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
Malc and I get on really well even though from different political stables though I have voted SNP in the distant past when I lived in Edinburgh. Of course if the Scots and her many members of family voted for independence she would accept but you greatly underestimate the number of Scots who cherish the union, but maybe not ultra englanders views like yours
Do you call Scottish Yes voters ultra Scottishers or do you only reserve that epithet for the English?
Until now I did not realise how ultra englanders want to break up the union. At least the Scots have been open about it. When I was a child living in Berwick on Tweed in the early fifties Wendy Wood ( Nicola's predessessor) would mark Scotland across the centre of the border bridge
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
Why shouldn't people campaign for an independent England? The Union was a dead letter when devolution was passed. It's just a slow withering away. It's genuinely odd that Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists are hunky-dory, but English nationalism is somehow beyond the pale.
Absolutely they should but need to be open about it and stand as a party
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - SNP -or Plaid Cymru. I grew up in Pembrokeshire - 'little England beyond Wales' - and have always felt culturally British rather than Welsh.. Were I a schoolboy there today , I would bitterly resent - and rebel against - having the Welsh language rammed down my throat , and at being denied the opportunity to study French, German & Latin
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - SNP -or Plaid Cymru. I grew up in Pembrokeshire - 'little England beyond Wales' - and have always felt culturally British rather than Welsh.. Were I a schoolboy there today , I would bitterly resent - and rebel against - having the Welsh language rammed down my throat , and at being denied the opportunity to study French, German & Latin
Not sure where you get your last sentence from.
My eldest granddaughter has just taken her gcse in french and welsh and passed both.
Also while I am half Welsh / English and my wife is a Scot we both are unionists. However, my children and grand children identfy as Welsh first, British second
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
Would she be equally furious with @malcomg and the 45% of her Scottish compatriots who voted for independence? Why is it shocking for an Englishman to prefer an independent England (so long as the Scots want that themselves) but its perfectly OK for a Scot to prefer an independent Scotland (regardless of what the English may or may not want)?
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
I have always been a staunch Unionist and utterly despise nationalism in all its forms
I suspect some might describe 'Unionism' as 'nationalism for the Union' - but I know what you mean.
Contrast Mrs May & Ms Sturgeon's responses to questions......
Mrs May; "Its worse under Labour", Ms Sturgeon: "Its worse in England"
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
I love my brothers but we've all grown up and moved out of the family home. That doesn't diminish my love for them. Scotland can be like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a fond relative but no longer in the same abode.
I would never support the SNP or Plaid and would happily vote Tory in the absence of an alternative.
Well you have not lived in Scotland or understand the politics of the country and it's people. The SNP are backed by a huge number of unionist for their progressive politics but it stops at independence
/blockquote>
Not sure where you get your last sentence from.
My eldest granddaughter has just taken her gcse in french and welsh and passed both.
Also while I am half Welsh / English and my wife is a Scot we both are unionists. However, my children and grand children identfy as Welsh first, British second
My last sentence relates to my awareness that pupils at school today in Haverfordwest study Welsh up to GCSE plus one other foreign language. I was able to study three - including Latin. No objection,however, to Welsh being available as an option.
I think a basic position of not believing economic predictions rarely hurts individuals, but I'm sure Krugman has also been very wrong about things before, and motivated by politics.
Niall Ferguson did a brilliant take down of Krugman a few years ago.
They're both brilliant, but on economics Krugman is the more brilliant. However his weakness is that he doesn't hold back his political attitudes.
Well here's something I haven't seen before from the Irish Times: "WTO rules thus offer the basis of a bespoke solution to the Irish problem, rather than posing an obstacle that threatens to derail Brexit altogether." [Edit - explanation: Using the WTO Security Exemption by both UK and Irish governments to allow an exemption from tariffs across the border. Also a bargaining chip for the Republic to use against Brussels over Corporation Tax rates] https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/trump-s-tariff-tactics-could-make-no-deal-brexit-work-for-ireland-1.3711188
Strip out the tertiary nations in the UK and England is very fair and balanced politically. Instead of struggling to get a small working majority or none at all, Cameron, Major and May would all be comparable to Tony Blair, either at his peak or in 2005. I am OK with that.
It's a shame the Scots were too feart to seek independence, but oh well I can live with that.
If all the other nations were full members of the EU, would you still want England to be fully detached from it, or would it make sense to integrate?
Yes. I want the MPs we elect to set our laws. That's why I supported Yes in 2014. I would like a free trade agreement with Scotland, but I see no reason to be in a union with them if they no longer wish it.
But like a big brother I'm OK with them tagging along with us if that's what they want. I wouldn't want to kick them out or us to seek independence from them, they can go if they want or they can stay, I'm OK either way.
I am sorry to see such an attitude to our union and Scotland. If my wife read that she would be furious. A Scot who is absolutely proud of our union
I am another who does not care about the Union at all. I would be very happy to see Scots being able to decide all their own laws, not just the scraps they are allowed from Westminster.
You were going on the other day about people who support staying in the EU as traitors, yet today you are calling for the end of the United Kingdom....
That is an outright lie. Typical of you I am afraid.
Well here's something I haven't seen before from the Irish Times: "WTO rules thus offer the basis of a bespoke solution to the Irish problem, rather than posing an obstacle that threatens to derail Brexit altogether." [Edit - explanation: Using the WTO Security Exemption by both UK and Irish governments to allow an exemption from tariffs across the border. Also a bargaining chip for the Republic to use against Brussels over Corporation Tax rates] https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/trump-s-tariff-tactics-could-make-no-deal-brexit-work-for-ireland-1.3711188
Well written and entirely logical.
If the EU wasn't abusing the Irish border in order to screw the future relationship for Britain (as Selymar has already gloated) this could have been agreed months ago.
Comments
The government by opening it up to all kinds of amendments including a second referendum, delaying A50, renegotiation, or actually remaining will show each and every individual mps voting position and must indicate where compromise is available, unless of course the last vote is on TM deal and by process of elimantion it passes
Now I am sure some on here may identify procedural errors in the above but it is going to be political theatre anyway
A woman has been jailed by the Irish courts for causing criminal damage to a €1.50 (£1.30) packet of crisps.
Kathleen McDonagh, aged 25, opened some Pringles in a Tesco in the city of Cork before she had paid for them.
The woman had been banned from the store, and told the court she opened the crisps so that security would be forced to let her pay for it.
Instead, she was sentenced to two months in prison for damaging the product, which could no longer be sold.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46371201
Also, it cannot be easy to get banned from a Tesco, I would think.
I just hope May survives long enough for it to get to a vote, there still seem to be people trying to pull it because of the expected defeat (to what purpose? A new deal will not magically appear until this one is ruled out)
As Big G hints, part of the reason why everyone seems to be hardening their position against May's deal, is because everyone will be forced to show their cards in the aftermath of the vote failing.
Only once everyone knows what everyone else is holding, will we (hopefully) see Parliament attempting to come to a view on a possible way forward.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/10/09/the-sex-slave-scandal-that-exposed-pedophile-billionaire-jeffrey-epstein/amp/
Always be sincere, especially when you don’t mean it
It would be somewhat appropriate to last until 2020 - get us back on track to where we would have been had 2017 not occurred.
So when EU farmers sent us horsemeat masquerading as beef those had been visited by UK food inspectors?
(Personally I think sending UK food inspectors around the globe a ludicrous expense but that's my reading of what was proposed)
If it requires EU approval, then it remains to be seen if the EU demand concessions as the price of agreeing to let the UK stay.
Hardline remainers are as guilty as hardline brexiteers of making assumptions that the EU would roll over in such an instance. I would fully expect them to tell the UK to stuff its rebate and a few opt outs in such a situation (pour encourager les autres). They do not want this process to be some regular event where they’re having to negotiate with a rebellious member state every few years.
Lots of ifs, but if that does turn out to be the case, it could make the case for remain much harder.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-boy-16-charged-assault-13656847
Ch4 news featured a video of an assault on his sister.
Though it depends on if someone is a continuity remainer or a defeatest one - the latter we've seen comments the likes of which the EU no longer cares about us and are glad to see us gone, in which case trouble would be likely, and the former believe the EU would welcome us back if we just changed our minds.
If you campaigned openly for an independent england then that would be honest
I'm quite happy for England to be a grandfatherly figure to the other nations that used to depend upon us. But for as long as they want to live in our home, I'm OK with that too.
https://www.gofundme.com/jamal-from-huddersfield-bullied-at-school
https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1067883628057829389
https://youtu.be/M2VBmHOYpV8
EDIT: who do they think they are, Forfar and Fife?!
My eldest granddaughter has just taken her gcse in french and welsh and passed both.
Also while I am half Welsh / English and my wife is a Scot we both are unionists. However, my children and grand children identfy as Welsh first, British second
Contrast Mrs May & Ms Sturgeon's responses to questions......
Mrs May; "Its worse under Labour",
Ms Sturgeon: "Its worse in England"
If you continually decide
To faithfully pursue
The policy of truth
https://twitter.com/almurray/status/1067868224312754176
[Edit - explanation: Using the WTO Security Exemption by both UK and Irish governments to allow an exemption from tariffs across the border. Also a bargaining chip for the Republic to use against Brussels over Corporation Tax rates]
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/trump-s-tariff-tactics-could-make-no-deal-brexit-work-for-ireland-1.3711188
If the EU wasn't abusing the Irish border in order to screw the future relationship for Britain (as Selymar has already gloated) this could have been agreed months ago.