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  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited November 2018
    Anorak said:

    The future relationship document is 26 pages of non-binding waffle with acres of wriggle room built in. It sells no-one out because it contains no firm commitments. To get outraged by it is to reveal yourself to be someone looking for reasons to be outraged.

    Exactly. A blank canvas upon which the conspiricist, the nihilist, and the downright deranged can gleefully project themselves.

    *waves at grabcocque*
    Beginning to think our PB legal analyst / reporter is as impartial as a Paul Mason sort of interpreter. The fake poll report and the reaction to it yesterday was a subtle hint....
  • Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    I suspect it does.

    In politics, truth is secondary to optics.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    Oh

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1065577425386569730
    But sources close to Big G say that everything is fine.

    I don't know who to believe...
  • Rob1909 said:

    I have been a lifelong Tory voter but if they don't deliver a Brexit and we end up with another referendum I will never vote for them again. Those calling for another referendum need to realise how badly that would play with leave voters from both parties.

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see a way forward but a split in the Tories going foward. Those looking to the future, and the ones stuck in the past.

    It is impossible to see how the Tories can ever be reconciled.
    Problem is that nobody knows what "leave" means so its impossible to keep everyone happy. The referendum question was clear and unambiguous - "Should the UK leave the European Union." Which is why its batshit crazy for the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to say that if we leave the EU that we haven't left the EU. If "leave means leave" then it refers to the issue on the referendum paper - the EU.

    As it stands too many people have confused the question asked so that if presented with what they voted for - to leave the EU - they say "hang on, thats not leaving the EU". Which is why we need another vote. It cannot in any sane application of reason be "the will of the people" when "the people" are arguing about which will they refer to.

    The UK is a democracy. Voting is democratic. To argue that voting is anti-democratic is the sign of a deranged imagination. To argue that MPs should be allowed to vote twice but not the electorate is absurd. What specifically are hardcore leavers terrified of? Its not democracy - even though having argued that power be repatriated to the UK they have screamed at the use of that power in parliament and the courts at every opportunity. No, their terror is that they are in the minority.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    True. But Ross Thomson is an absolute roaster.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited November 2018

    Oh

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1065577425386569730
    But sources close to Big G say that everything is fine.

    I don't know who to believe...

    Where did I say that
  • 2nd vote May/June here we come.
  • Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Like Norway, eh? That's the Norway which grants EU countries the right to fish in its waters, in exchange for access to the EU market (and vice versa)? That Norway?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    What would be you preferred position? They cannot fish in our waters (and therefore we cannot fish in theirs), or something else?

    What's your ideal?
  • Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Like Norway, eh? That's the Norway which grants EU countries the right to fish in its waters, in exchange for access to the EU market (and vice versa)? That Norway?
    Exactly
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Alistair said:

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    True. But Ross Thomson is an absolute roaster.
    True, but also irrelevant. The narrative avalanche has started. If you squint your ears "May betrays UK fishing, gets nothing in return" is being breathed on the political winds.
  • True, but also irrelevant. The narrative avalanche has started. If you squint your ears "May betrays UK fishing, gets nothing in return" is being breathed on the political winds.

    Quite possibly. But one doesn't need to join in the nonsense.
  • Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup).

    EWWWWWW
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Oh

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1065577425386569730
    But sources close to Big G say that everything is fine.

    I don't know who to believe...

    Where did I say that
    Hey do you think sacrificing the UK fishing industry in exchange for nothing and alienating the entire Scots Tory base as a side effect might be May's "Falklands Moment" you've been promising us?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Just when the numbers to remove Theresa May were looking shaky, the PM goes fishing and lands 13 more votes....
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Letter from Scots Tories to May on 14th Nov (Signed by all the Scottish Tories) says "access and quota shares cannot be included in the Future Economic Partnership”.

    Have a guess what May has just done...

    I assume you have a detailed knowledge of the fishing industry including access and quotas
    No, but I do have the the ability to read English words and sentences, and to obtain semantic meaning from. Such as when the PD makes the FEP deal contingent on selling out fishing, when she assured Mundell, Ruth and the entire Scottish Tory party that she wasn't going to do that.
    So do we. Negotiating an agreement on access is not semantically equivalent to "se;;ing out fishing"
    You seem desperate to push this narrative of yours.
    Why?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Ross Thompson leaping on the outrage bus is utterly self defeating for him. The SNP must be smiling today.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    May is safe for now but if Boris is to lead the Tories into the next general election he needs enough support from MPs to get to the final two, he already leads with Tory members.

    The support of Mogg should help gather right-wing MPs around him, Portillo's problem in 2001 was he was squeezed between the candidate of the left of the party, Ken Clarke and the candidate of the right of the party, IDS
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    True, but also irrelevant. The narrative avalanche has started. If you squint your ears "May betrays UK fishing, gets nothing in return" is being breathed on the political winds.

    Quite possibly. But one doesn't need to join in the nonsense.
    You keep repeating to yourself into that mirror, Richard. "This is a good deal, Richard. THIS IS A GOOD DEAL".

    You're gonna get through this, I believe in you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    Rob1909 said:

    I have been a lifelong Tory voter but if they don't deliver a Brexit and we end up with another referendum I will never vote for them again. Those calling for another referendum need to realise how badly that would play with leave voters from both parties.

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see a way forward but a split in the Tories going foward. Those looking to the future, and the ones stuck in the past.

    It is impossible to see how the Tories can ever be reconciled.
    You think they should deliver Brexit even if there is a big majority against it?
    There was a majority for it in 2016.

    86% of votes at the 2017 General Election were for parties pledging to implement it. No ifs, no buts, no Second Vote.

    But hey, you know better than the voters.....
    Both the Tories and Labour also promised a trade deal
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    True, but also irrelevant. The narrative avalanche has started. If you squint your ears "May betrays UK fishing, gets nothing in return" is being breathed on the political winds.

    Quite possibly. But one doesn't need to join in the nonsense.
    Particularly when you're a Scottish Tory. This agreement can easily be sold as potential transition to "Norway". Anyway I fear it is too late, Ross Thompson has leapt onto the outrage bus without much thought as to the consequences.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Just when the numbers to remove Theresa May were looking shaky, the PM goes fishing and lands 13 more votes....

    The Tories waited 25 years to win back those seats in north-east Scotland, and fishing was one of the main issues.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676

    I do find it hilarious that an ultra-purist like the Moggster should think it's a good idea to trust and give his support to Boris, the most slippery, changeable, untrustworthy and inconsistent man in modern politics, who has elevated betraying his friends (not to mention his wives) into an artform, and whose political positioning inasmuch as he has any is nothing like the ERG's.

    Old School Tie.

    School > Party > Country.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    Rob1909 said:

    I have been a lifelong Tory voter but if they don't deliver a Brexit and we end up with another referendum I will never vote for them again. Those calling for another referendum need to realise how badly that would play with leave voters from both parties.

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see a way forward but a split in the Tories going foward. Those looking to the future, and the ones stuck in the past.

    It is impossible to see how the Tories can ever be reconciled.
    Bye bye to UKIP then.

    Tories on 39% this week with Yougov despite UKIP on 6%, only 32% though back No Deal with Survation
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Pulpstar said:

    True, but also irrelevant. The narrative avalanche has started. If you squint your ears "May betrays UK fishing, gets nothing in return" is being breathed on the political winds.

    Quite possibly. But one doesn't need to join in the nonsense.
    Particularly when you're a Scottish Tory. This agreement can easily be sold as potential transition to "Norway". Anyway I fear it is too late, Ross Thompson has leapt onto the outrage bus without much thought as to the consequences.
    May lied to their faces only last week. Outrage is a fairly measured response.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Why is it dodgy ?
    Corporate types have loved to pay massive sums of money to listen to celebrity politicians spout guff since time immemorial haven't they ?
    I mean I think its a waste of money myself but - or is it not just spouting bullshit for 2 hours they're paying him for here ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Most UK fishermen are No Deal backing Leave voters
  • I expect the Commons this afternoon to be as brutal for May as it was last week. I know there has been this desperate hope expressed on here that it'll be alright on the night and Tory MPs will come back on side en masse, and that Labour Corbynphobes will get on board.

    Yet in the world of realpolitique the deal gets worse and worse and worse the more the thing is scrutinised. Made even worse if thats possible by the firm mantra chanted by May that this is as Good as it Gets.

    ERM loons are against it because it offers up none of the benefits they wanted and puts us in an even worse place than we are now. Remain loons are against it because it leaves us economically diplomatically and politically far worse off than we are now. General leave punters don't understand what the problem is in delivering whatever they think they voted for that wasn't on the referendum paper.

    No wonder "remain" is starting to feel like a warm place to most MPs. "But the referendum!" people cry. Yes, and when both Labour and Tory parties end up at a position where remain is the Least Worst Option (and they will) then what - will the entire country vote UKIP?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Any Con MP that takes May at her word is in for serious disappointment.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    HYUFD said:

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Most UK fishermen are No Deal backing Leave voters
    If they weren't before, they are now. :)
  • Oh

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1065577425386569730
    But sources close to Big G say that everything is fine.

    I don't know who to believe...

    Where did I say that
    Hey do you think sacrificing the UK fishing industry in exchange for nothing and alienating the entire Scots Tory base as a side effect might be May's "Falklands Moment" you've been promising us?
    You know little about fishing as you have admitted. The choice here is a sensible negotiation over fishing which you need when most of your fish is sold into Europe. Nicola Sturgeon wants a Norway deal which imposes the same conditions. Or remain and nothing changes. No deal will create chaos in the north sea whivh will result in a negotiated deal or stalemate.

    TM Falklands moment is to do with getting brexit over the line and if she does, her enhancing position with the electorate even more so
  • Pulpstar said:

    Why is it dodgy ?
    Corporate types have loved to pay massive sums of money to listen to celebrity politicians spout guff since time immemorial haven't they ?
    I mean I think its a waste of money myself but - or is it not just spouting bullshit for 2 hours they're paying him for here ?

    Politically dodgy, especially for someone supposedly siding with the forgotten and unheard against the elite.

  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    TGOHF said:

    Back here on planet Earth (rather than Planet Wank Theresa Into A Cup)

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065576576639750144
    Looks like Theresa May betraying the UK fishing industry and lying to the faces of Scots Tories might, in fact, be a story with legs.

    Any Con MP that takes May at her word is in for serious disappointment.
    Truth.

    But when you're a minority government trying to build a coalition of support for a dodgy deal nobody wants, and you're starting 80+ votes in the red, *my* first strategy wouldn't have been to lie to the faces of another 13 and deliberately infuriate them.

    But hey, I do me and you do you, Mrs M.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2018
    Oh, I don't know, Goldentree is one of those workers' cooperative thingies so beloved of McDonnell and Corbyn.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    The bizarre hyperactivity of some posters here is truly one of the defining spectacles of the Brexit-era.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
  • matt said:

    The bizarre hyperactivity of some posters here is truly one of the defining spectacles of the Brexit-era.

    Indeed
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    What vote ? There is no vote.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited November 2018
    TGOHF said:

    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    What vote ? There is no vote.
    There is, there is a QMV vote. It'll pass.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    AndyJS said:

    Just when the numbers to remove Theresa May were looking shaky, the PM goes fishing and lands 13 more votes....

    The Tories waited 25 years to win back those seats in north-east Scotland, and fishing was one of the main issues.
    Voting Tory in those seats is basically a form of self-harm. Those MPs have a mandate to screw over their constituents as much and as often as they possibly can. To do anything else would be a betrayal of their voters.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878
    FPT:
    Freggles said:


    Bring back the days of buying a game and that's it.

    Glad the rumours of the death of 2nd hand game discs haven't yet come true, at least.

    As a reasonably hardcore PC gamer, I can only agree with this. These days its:
    1. Release game with multiple bugs and charge full price.
    2. Release 'DLC' which is effectively paid for patches to bring the game up to speed over the next 2 years.

    Total cost of a 'new' game has gone from £30-£40 ten years ago to well over £100 if you buy everything on day one. That increase isn't inflation alone.

    I never buy games at release anymore, and when I hear of one I might be interested in playing, I just think 'Oh, that'll interest me to buy in maybe three years time when its all patched and DLCed up'.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited November 2018
    When TM delivers the deal to the HOC she will have achieved a divorce from the EU which a few years ago would have ERG jumping for joy. The fact that they have lost all reason and now want to stop this deal and prefer to take us into an economic wasteland is amazing. Of course no deal will be stopped and in the end if a referendum takes us back into the EU they will have committed the ultimate 'shot to the foot'
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Hammond about to be savaged by a dead pig ?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1065585009162153984
  • AndyJS said:

    Just when the numbers to remove Theresa May were looking shaky, the PM goes fishing and lands 13 more votes....

    The Tories waited 25 years to win back those seats in north-east Scotland, and fishing was one of the main issues.
    Voting Tory in those seats is basically a form of self-harm. Those MPs have a mandate to screw over their constituents as much and as often as they possibly can. To do anything else would be a betrayal of their voters.
    As opposed to voting Labour, LibDem, or SNP, all of whom want to keep the current arrangements for fishing?
  • TGOHF said:

    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    What vote ? There is no vote.
    The member states make their decision by Qualified Majority Volleyball
  • SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    No such thing as a vote
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    I suppose the fact that Spain is pissed off is a good sign. On her current form, we could have woken up to the fact that May had accidentally agreed to the permanent annexation of Gibraltar by Emmanuel Macron's ego.
  • TGOHF said:

    Hammond about to be savaged by a dead pig ?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1065585009162153984

    Tory Gain - Newcastle central
  • SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    You are shouting now
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Mr. Fear, what about abstentions?

    I think that most of them will vent, before deciding it's better than the possible alternatives.
    Why do you think that?
    Pressure from the whips, fear of a Corbyn government, cooling down over the course of three weeks, recognition that half a loaf is better than none.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    You are shouting now
    Shouting is in the original twitter
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,146
    edited November 2018

    FPT:

    Freggles said:


    Bring back the days of buying a game and that's it.

    Glad the rumours of the death of 2nd hand game discs haven't yet come true, at least.

    As a reasonably hardcore PC gamer, I can only agree with this. These days its:
    1. Release game with multiple bugs and charge full price.
    2. Release 'DLC' which is effectively paid for patches to bring the game up to speed over the next 2 years.

    Total cost of a 'new' game has gone from £30-£40 ten years ago to well over £100 if you buy everything on day one. That increase isn't inflation alone.

    I never buy games at release anymore, and when I hear of one I might be interested in playing, I just think 'Oh, that'll interest me to buy in maybe three years time when its all patched and DLCed up'.
    You missed.

    0. Charge for "early access" version, which isn't even an alpha version, 2 years before actual release.
    ...
    3. Charge extra for access to buggy and unfinished game 4 days before advertised release date.
    4. Make the game such a grind to level up, that its requires either use of micotransaction purchases or 100hrs of side missions in order to be strong enough to actually progress with the main story.
  • TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    He knows nothing about fishing
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    What fishing surrender?
    We have said we're going to come up with a fishing agreement. So have the EU. Have they surrendered as well?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    He knows nothing about fishing
    No, but I know a lot about when a PM is being a lying, incompetent fool and and has betrayed her own voters, party and red lines... again.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    I mean, gee, gosh. I'd love to show May how to do her fucking job for her (on current form, it'd be hard to do worse), but I already have a job, y'know.

    A job I'm actually good at rather than some Prime Ministers I can mention.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    True. But Ross Thomson is an absolute roaster.

    Indeed. Also...

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1065585595391586305
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    This might prove useful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
  • Norman Smith - this document is not going to win over the dads army brigade....

    When did the ERG rebrand?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Once again Mrs May has failed to communicate with her own MPs and sell them the deal.

    Hopeless.
  • TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    I mean, gee, gosh. I'd love to show May how to do her fucking job for her (on current form, it'd be hard to do worse), but I already have a job, y'know.

    A job I'm actually good at rather than some Prime Ministers I can mention.
    I think you want to watch the world burn.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    May is outside Number 10

    NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited November 2018

    Norman Smith - this document is not going to win over the dads army brigade....

    When did the ERG rebrand?

    Last weekend, when they tried to go over the top but their broom handles weren't loaded
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    I mean, gee, gosh. I'd love to show May how to do her fucking job for her (on current form, it'd be hard to do worse), but I already have a job, y'know.

    A job I'm actually good at rather than some Prime Ministers I can mention.
    Screaming about this deal, when you have no idea of the sort of deal you want - yet alone the sort of deal that is preferable or possible, is a bit ridiculous.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    It does seem that the incompetence of May is only matched by the cowardice of her cabinet.

    Two great constants in these unsettled times.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Alistair said:


    True. But Ross Thomson is an absolute roaster.

    I think he's going to find himself very quickly isolated amongst Scottish Tories today. Mundell in favour, I think Ruth will be too.
  • Norman Smith - this document is not going to win over the dads army brigade....

    When did the ERG rebrand?

    When they had that idiotic news conference and the press rebranded them
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Backstop = CFP.

    No incentive for a deal for the EU no 23821
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited November 2018

    Norman Smith - this document is not going to win over the dads army brigade....

    When did the ERG rebrand?

    When they had that idiotic news conference and the press rebranded them
    Ah yes, the aged John Major spitting image puppet participant was splendid fun.
  • It does seem that the incompetence of May is only matched by the cowardice of her cabinet.

    Two great constants in these unsettled times.

    You do seem to be irritated somewhat
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    Norman Smith - this document is not going to win over the dads army brigade....

    When did the ERG rebrand?

    It does offer the prospect of a technological solution to the Irish border and no mention of the EU rulebook as part of the draft declaration on the future relationship though
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    May lied to your face, betrayed your constituents and now you're expected to go on TV, support the deeply problematic wording of the PD, and say "thank you Theresa please may I have another".

    Imagine how little dignity and self-respect you'd have to have to be a Scots Tory giving May a pass over this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    SPAIN WILL VOTE AGAINST CURRENT BREXIT DRAFT PROPOSAL DUE TO LACK OF CLARITY ON GIBRALTAR - SPANISH DIPLOMATIC SOURCE

    It us decided by QMV
  • TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    He knows nothing about fishing
    No, but I know a lot about when a PM is being a lying, incompetent fool and and has betrayed her own voters, party and red lines... again.
    You appear to have missed a very crucial point about the political declaration.

    It is not legally binding. It is a declaration of a possible route forward. It commits us to nothing as far as the future talks go and if we decide that fishing is more important than some other possible aspects of the deal then it allows us to make a stand on that point.

    Now I am definitely in the camp that believes May has been entirely the wrong person to do these negotiations to date and even more so that she should not be in charge of decisions making for the trade talks after March 29th.

    But to claim that something that is non binding and specifically designed to obfuscate and be everything to everyone - which is exactly what the Political Declaration is - is somehow a great betrayal, seems to be far removed from reality.

    It is worth asking the other crucial question. What is the point of having all the fishing rights if you have pissed off your customers and have no where to sell them? Remember we export a large majority of our fish to the EU.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I can't see a way forward but a split in the Tories going foward. Those looking to the future, and the ones stuck in the past.

    It’s happened before, it’ll happen again

    Radicals and One Nation vs the Ultras
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    This might prove useful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
    I'm familiar with it. Your point is?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    He knows nothing about fishing
    No, but I know a lot about when a PM is being a lying, incompetent fool and and has betrayed her own voters, party and red lines... again.
    You appear to have missed a very crucial point about the political declaration.
    I do understand that. Which makes May's decision to lie to the faces of Scots Tories about the fishing industry all the more baffling, in context.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited November 2018
    TGOHF said:

    Backstop = CFP.

    No incentive for a deal for the EU no 23821

    Unless it has changed today, the backstop takes us out of the CFP.

    Edit: With the possible exception of NI, which will maintain SM access. not sure.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    TGOHF said:

    Backstop = CFP.

    No incentive for a deal for the EU no 23821

    White Rabbit (Who seems to know his stuff) reckons we're out the CFP in the backstop.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    This might prove useful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
    I'm familiar with it. Your point is?
    One of the things we, as citizens are supposed to do, is hold our elected representatives to account when they fuck up and lie.

    May needs a *lot* of holding to account.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    May lied to your face, betrayed your constituents and now you're expected to go on TV, support the deeply problematic wording of the PD, and say "thank you Theresa please may I have another".

    Imagine how little dignity and self-respect you'd have to have to be a Scots Tory giving May a pass over this.

    Aside from Ross and David who've come out diametrically opposed, I think they're all awaiting orders from Ruthie.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Pulpstar said:

    May lied to your face, betrayed your constituents and now you're expected to go on TV, support the deeply problematic wording of the PD, and say "thank you Theresa please may I have another".

    Imagine how little dignity and self-respect you'd have to have to be a Scots Tory giving May a pass over this.

    Aside from Ross and David who've come out diametrically opposed, I think they're all awaiting orders from Ruthie.
    Who will fall in line.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    May lied to your face, betrayed your constituents and now you're expected to go on TV, support the deeply problematic wording of the PD, and say "thank you Theresa please may I have another".

    Imagine how little dignity and self-respect you'd have to have to be a Scots Tory giving May a pass over this.

    Aside from Ross and David who've come out diametrically opposed, I think they're all awaiting orders from Ruthie.
    Who will fall in line.
    I think Ruth backs this, but lets see.
  • TGOHF said:

    What will Gove do re May's fishing surrender ?

    Nothing. It's clear he hasn't got the balls to do what is needful.
    As I asked you below: what would your preferred position be wrt fishing? You're giving off a lot of heat over the issue, but very little light.
    No idea. But I'd probably start with not lying to the faces of the people I need to back me in order to get a workable fisheries policy.

    I'd certainly want to stick to May's red line (PBUH) that an independent fisheries policy cannot be contingent on a future trade deal. And certainly will not guarantee EU fleets future preferential access in exchange for being allowed a trade deal.

    The UK needs to become an independent coastal nation, and if Macron and May think they can hold UK fisheries hostage during trade negotiations to prevent that then they can fuck right off.
    So you've no idea what you want but you're sure this isn't it?
    This might prove useful for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
    I'm familiar with it. Your point is?
    One of the things we, as citizens are supposed to do, is hold our elected representatives to account when they fuck up and lie.

    May needs a *lot* of holding to account.
    Seems she is improving her approval rate considerably and especially with women.

    I do not think she will worry too much about your views
  • How many letters does this one generate?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sean_Fear said:

    I can't see a way forward but a split in the Tories going foward. Those looking to the future, and the ones stuck in the past.

    I remember when Leavers said only a Leave vote would unite the Tory party.

    Seems like a sick joke now.
    The Tory Party has not been united in my adult lifetime.. I think we should take it as a given that it will always be disunited.
    Well the loons are in the ascendancy at the moment.

    Brexit has emboldened them.

    If you call yourself a One Nation Tory and voted for Brexit then you’ve really soiled the bed.
    No. The people who soiled the bed are the politicians who took ya this deep into a foreign entanglement without proper authority

    You wanted to throw a blanket over it.

    We are starting the messy business of clearing it up.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Is this the start of a screeching U-turn from Roaster Ross ?

    https://twitter.com/RossThomson_MP/status/1065589833593208833
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    One of the things we, as citizens are supposed to do, is hold our elected representatives to account when they fuck up and lie.

    Like BoZo and Gove during the referendum campaign you mean?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theresa May's "deal" kicks all the difficult decisions to another cliff edge in 2020, when the EU will be even less willing, and us even less able, to avert disaster in good faith.

    Kicking the can ever further down the road. Saving her skin one more time.

    What an utter fucking shambolic shitshow of a disaster May is trying to hawk us.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    This seems a good summary. Of course we'll have ranters going off half-cocked, but the emotional EU-haters were never going to be persuaded regardless.


    https://twitter.com/HenryNewman/status/1065567579668971521

    https://twitter.com/HenryNewman/status/1065567582504345600

    https://twitter.com/HenryNewman/status/1065567584312008704
This discussion has been closed.