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  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited November 2018
    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    There's an interesting stat doing the rounds on the news networks. Everyone agrees that the Dem route to taking the Senate is a difficult one tomorrow, and indeed the GOP could pick up a couple, but the interesting stat is that not one of the Senate dems up for reelection in 2020 is in a state Trump won in 2016.

    It would be surprising if the Dems don't do quite well down ballot. 8 years of Obama almost destroyed the Dems as a national party outside Congress. The GOP - if I remember correctly in the almost mind numbing drum beat of the last week or so -holds 36 governorships and 67 of the 99 state legislative bodies. The only way from an achievement like that for the GOP is down, which bodes well for the dems..

    I think that these figures are somewhat exaggerated by the number of low population states the Republicans have compared with the Dems having Cal, NY etc but there is no doubt that this has damaged the party nationally and arguably cost Hillary the election.
    This is true. 1/3 of House dems are from CA, NY, MA and IL. Hillary piled up such huge vote counts in CA and NY that if you subtract either state, Trump wins the popular vote. - and that is why we have the Electoral College.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Yorkcity said:

    Tim_B said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    Yes so I believe in contrast to blood cancers .Such as myeloma where new drugs are helping many people live for many years with a treatable if not curable condition.

    My best friend in England is battling myeloma. He's having a bit of a tough time.
    Hope they can get your friend into remission in many cases with myeloma they can for many years.
    He had the stem cell transplant a couple of years back.
  • My deepest condolences, Barnesian.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Very sorry to read that.Sudden death - or very serious terminal illness - is so cruel and denies those most affected the time to mentally & emotionally adjust to the pain and loss that has become imminent.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    edited November 2018
    Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    My sincere condolences also.

    I lost my partner many years ago to cancer, in her case dragged out over several years of operations, treatment, remissions and recurrences. On the upside we had a fair few 'last holidays' and when the end came it certainly wasn't a surprise, but the operations reduced her quality of life significanfly, and much of the treatment was truly horrible; with hindsight I am sure that it is better for both the patient and their family for things to conclude quickly.
  • Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    My thoughts and best wishes for you and your family at such a distressing time
  • My condolences Barnesian.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    @Barnesian, that's terrible. Deepest sympathy.

    With regard to Jeremy Hayward, he had lymphoma last year, but I don't know whether this was an extension, a complication or something else entirely.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    Terribly sorry to hear about this.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited November 2018
    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited November 2018

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    That's - extraordinary.

    You're right, it is beyond words.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Is it? I feel like this is a case of horseshoe theory, with people like Blair and Bojo united in opposing the deal, whereas both Remainers and Leavers who just want to get any deal done and move on are supporting it.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Sorry to hear this. Sincere condolences to you.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    So what Mr Hestermeyer is saying is that EU territory can be in someone else's cusotms territotry - and he wants Ireland to be in the UK customs territory without losing its rights as an EU territory just like Būssingen - or have I misunderstood?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Totally O/t, but I have been reading Ms Cyclefree’s excellent blog. There is a section in the latest post which, were I still involved in professional CPD I would use as the basis for a reflective essay. I would also counsel others to use it, and so far as my advice listened to nowadays, will still do.

    Thank you very much for your kind words.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    Sorry to hear your news. Best wishes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Cyclefree said:



    Totally O/t, but I have been reading Ms Cyclefree’s excellent blog. There is a section in the latest post which, were I still involved in professional CPD I would use as the basis for a reflective essay. I would also counsel others to use it, and so far as my advice listened to nowadays, will still do.

    Thank you very much for your kind words.
    Cyclefree

    Can I please have a link as well?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Very sorry to hear this Barnesian. Condolences to you and your wife.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Totally O/t, but I have been reading Ms Cyclefree’s excellent blog. There is a section in the latest post which, were I still involved in professional CPD I would use as the basis for a reflective essay. I would also counsel others to use it, and so far as my advice listened to nowadays, will still do.

    Thank you very much for your kind words.
    Cyclefree

    Can I please have a link as well?
    Could a link go in the sidebar? some other blogs by regular PB posters are.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Oh, that is so very sad. My condolences to you. I hope the happy memories of your life together will sustain you.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
    Given that you're so fond of quoting the EU Referendum result, I'm surprised that you don't quote the result in Northern Ireland.
  • Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    Sorry to hear of your loss, Barnesian.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    Good to hear that PB provides some relief. Just to say I get a lot from your posts, which I find to be consistently thoughtful and perceptive.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    edited November 2018
    Welsh Political Barometer (YouGov) out this evening:

    Westminster:
    Lab 42
    Con 33
    PC 10
    LD 7

    Seats on UNS (compared to 2017 GE; existing boundaries):
    Lab 26 (-2)
    Con 10 (+2)
    PC 3 (-1)
    LD 1 (+1)

    Link (also has Assembly figures):

    https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-11-05/welsh-barometer-poll-tests-the-political-weather/
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Totally O/t, but I have been reading Ms Cyclefree’s excellent blog. There is a section in the latest post which, were I still involved in professional CPD I would use as the basis for a reflective essay. I would also counsel others to use it, and so far as my advice listened to nowadays, will still do.

    Thank you very much for your kind words.
    Cyclefree

    Can I please have a link as well?
    VM for you.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    edited November 2018
    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow morning?

    First polls close at 11pm UK time on the East Coast
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    @Barnesian I am very sorry to hear about your wife.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Really sorry to read this Barnesian. Very sad. Best wishes to you and your family.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
    Given that you're so fond of quoting the EU Referendum result, I'm surprised that you don't quote the result in Northern Ireland.
    Almost all the Unionist seats voted to Leave.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
    Given that you're so fond of quoting the EU Referendum result, I'm surprised that you don't quote the result in Northern Ireland.
    Almost all the Unionist seats voted to Leave.
    Don't the Nationalist seats count?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Barnesian. Deepest condolences.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    This is adjusted to Eastern Standard Time. Add 5 for the UK. A couple of states close at 6, but the action starts at 7 and 8


    https://www.270towin.com/closing.php.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
    Given that you're so fond of quoting the EU Referendum result, I'm surprised that you don't quote the result in Northern Ireland.
    Almost all the Unionist seats voted to Leave.
    Don't the Nationalist seats count?
    You pesky kids :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    Polls in Kentucky and Indiana close at 6pm their time, which is 11pm our time.
  • According to a report in The Australian, Australia received intelligence reports that Huawei personnel provided Chinese spies passwords to hack a "foreign network."

    https://www.axios.com/report-australian-intelligence-know-huawei-1541285886-42f1eb64-98de-422f-9686-4174e41ef37e.html
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Tim_B said:

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    This is adjusted to Eastern Standard Time. Add 5 for the UK. A couple of states close at 6, but the action starts at 7 and 8


    https://www.270towin.com/closing.php.
    How likely do you think it is that the GOP holds the House tomorrow?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    With respect to Northern Ireland, I thought that the issue was that we used our mutual membership of the EU (well, Single Market and Customs Union) to help close down the Troubles, and we're now moving to a position where we won't mutually be members of the EU and thus can't use that any more.

    Our choice, really; we can't realistically complain that they won't give us special dispensation when we explicilt say we don't want to seek to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union.
  • @Barnesian, sincere condolences.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Listening to Ireland today, is it really their position that the UK should be locked in to another geography's customs laws in perpetuity with no option for ever leaving?

    I suspect Leo Vodka's rhetoric hides an appreciation of the risks to Eire of UK's non EU status, regardless of the nature of that status.
    He has probably been emboldened by the number of UK Remainers who support the EU's annexationist position over UK territory.
    It's not Remainers who want to leave the EU...

    https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1059388156720701442

    No, but it is Remainers who are supporting the EU annexing British territory in perpetuity.
    Remainers don't support Brexit. If as you imply Brexiteers don't support it either, why are we doing it?
    You are doing some fantastical logical somersaults to avoid drawing attention away from the EU's completely unreasonable position of annexation. Bravo!
    The British government's position for decades has been that it's up to the people of the island of Ireland to decide.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

    They reaffirm as a binding obligation that they will, for their part, introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to this, or equally to any measure of agreement on future relationships in Ireland which the people living in Ireland may themselves freely so determine without external impediment.
    So why are the EU and the Republic so intent on trying to overrule the most popular party in Northern Ireland with their annexation tactic?
    The DUP have a manifesto commitment to avoid a hard border with Northern Ireland specific solutions. In any case they do not represent the people, only the minority who vote for them.
    DUP = 10 of 18 Northern Irish seats.
    Given that you're so fond of quoting the EU Referendum result, I'm surprised that you don't quote the result in Northern Ireland.
    Almost all the Unionist seats voted to Leave.
    If 7 of 11 is almost all then yes.
    Alternatively, almost 40% of Unionist seats voted Remain
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    This is adjusted to Eastern Standard Time. Add 5 for the UK. A couple of states close at 6, but the action starts at 7 and 8


    https://www.270towin.com/closing.php.
    How likely do you think it is that the GOP holds the House tomorrow?
    Before the weekend I felt that the GOP would hold on to the House by the skin of its teeth. Now I think it is slipping away. I think they'll hold the Senate. On average since ww2 at the first midterm of a new potus and Congress, they lose 28 seats in the house and 2-3 in the Senate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    With respect to Northern Ireland, I thought that the issue was that we used our mutual membership of the EU (well, Single Market and Customs Union) to help close down the Troubles, and we're now moving to a position where we won't mutually be members of the EU and thus can't use that any more.

    Our choice, really; we can't realistically complain that they won't give us special dispensation when we explicilt say we don't want to seek to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union.

    There is no need to flare things up just because we are no longer both members of the EU, it is not an either/or choice.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    dixiedean said:

    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.

    Stupid and offensive certainly, but when you think about it the whole Guy Fawkes thing of burning people in effigy is too.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    My condolences to Barnesian.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Final US midterms polls

    House of Representatives Generic ballot

    CNN Democrats 55% GOP 44%

    Rasmussen GOP 46% Democrats 45%

    ABC News/Wash Post Democrats 52% GOP 44%

    NBC News/Wall St Journal Democrats 50% GOP 43%

    IBD/TIPP Democrats 50% GOP 41%


    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_poll
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.

    Stupid and offensive certainly, but when you think about it the whole Guy Fawkes thing of burning people in effigy is too.

    One of my extended family, by marriage, went to a school in York of which Guy Fawkes was an Old Boy. Consequently she said, they were not allowed a guy on their Guy Fawkes bonfire.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Just got a call from my doctor's office with a billing issue. It's my first visit since signing up for Medicare. So although I have my prescription plan and my part G plan, Medicare apparently wants to argue the part B issue. So I shall spend about 3 hours on election day fighting with Uncle Sam. I suppose there's some sort of mystic balance
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Senate forecast GOP 51 Democrats 49

    Democrats projected to gain Arizona and Nevada, GOP to gain North Dakota and Missouri


    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/senate/2018_elections_senate_map_no_toss_ups.html
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    This is adjusted to Eastern Standard Time. Add 5 for the UK. A couple of states close at 6, but the action starts at 7 and 8


    https://www.270towin.com/closing.php.
    How likely do you think it is that the GOP holds the House tomorrow?
    Personally, I agree with those who say that anyone who tells you they know what will happen this election knows nothing. So, of course, I am going to tell you what I think, which probably means I know nothing.

    I think that this is a wave election with a difference. In normal circumstances with the Blue Wave as big as this, I'd say they were up for a repetition of what the GOP did to them in 2010. 60-70 seat pick up range in the House.

    But, I think that Trump has energized his base, even as he has pissed off and galvanized women, liberals and ethnic minorities to create the Blue Wave. So a Blue Wave with a Red Riptide.

    So really showing I know nothing, I'll predict a 40-45 seat pick up for the Dems in the House, and anything from 49-51 to 51-49 in the Senate, along with 5-7 gubernatorial pick ups.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    Polls in Kentucky and Indiana close at 6pm their time, which is 11pm our time.
    Only parts of both those states close att 11pm - some polls are open until 12pm there.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Brexit polling junkies will enjoy Channel 4 tonight, survation constituency polling a bit surprising.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.

    Stupid and offensive certainly, but when you think about it the whole Guy Fawkes thing of burning people in effigy is too.

    My school used to play his old school at cricket and rugby, and I believe still does
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Governors' races forecast

    Democrats 24 GOP 26 (Democrats to make 7 net gains)


    Democrats projected to gain the governorships of Florida, Ilinois, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, New Mexico, Ohio and Wisconsin.


    GOP projected to gain the Alaska governorship

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/governor/2018_elections_governor_map_no_toss_ups.html

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Barnesian, deepest condolences.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    stjohn said:

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Very sad to hear of Jeremy Heywood's death at such a young age. He kept working, in what must be a very high-stress job, until surprisingly recently, which shows remarkable dedication.

    I know he was nominated for a peerage by the PM when he retired on health grounds a few weeks ago, but did he live long enough to take it up?

    Yes it is very sad.
    There was no mention that I have read of the type of cancer.That seems to have taken him so quickly at a young age.
    A friend of mine aged 50 went from pain in the shoulder to death from lung cancer in 6 weeks. Sometimes it is very quick.
    That happened to my wife on holiday in Ireland this summer. I took her into A&E in Galway on 30 August with a cough, breathlessness and a pain in her shoulder to check she was fit enough for the journey home. She was kept in, diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, and died on 23 September in hospital in Galway. She never made it home. It was shockingly sudden.
    Really sorry to read this Barnesian. Very sad. Best wishes to you and your family.
    Dreadful thing to happen Barnesian. Deepest sympathy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    MikeL said:

    Welsh Political Barometer (YouGov) out this evening:

    Westminster:
    Lab 42
    Con 33
    PC 10
    LD 7

    Seats on UNS (compared to 2017 GE; existing boundaries):
    Lab 26 (-2)
    Con 10 (+2)
    PC 3 (-1)
    LD 1 (+1)

    Link (also has Assembly figures):

    https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-11-05/welsh-barometer-poll-tests-the-political-weather/

    Assembly figures see Welsh Labour on 29 seats and unchanged, the Welsh Tories up 7 seats to 18 and Plaid down 1 seat to 11, the LDs unchanged on 1 and UKIP down 6 to 1


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_for_Wales_election,_2016
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Barnesian said:

    Thank you all for your condolences. I wasn't going to say but I just blurted it out. We had just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary so we had had a very good life together.

    I find PB, midterms and Brexit usefully distracting but I'm still in deep shock and my thoughts keep returning to my wife and our life together.

    Condolonces too from me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    MTimT said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    What time are we expecting results to start coming in tomorrow Wednesday morning?

    This is adjusted to Eastern Standard Time. Add 5 for the UK. A couple of states close at 6, but the action starts at 7 and 8


    https://www.270towin.com/closing.php.
    How likely do you think it is that the GOP holds the House tomorrow?
    Personally, I agree with those who say that anyone who tells you they know what will happen this election knows nothing. So, of course, I am going to tell you what I think, which probably means I know nothing.

    I think that this is a wave election with a difference. In normal circumstances with the Blue Wave as big as this, I'd say they were up for a repetition of what the GOP did to them in 2010. 60-70 seat pick up range in the House.

    But, I think that Trump has energized his base, even as he has pissed off and galvanized women, liberals and ethnic minorities to create the Blue Wave. So a Blue Wave with a Red Riptide.

    So really showing I know nothing, I'll predict a 40-45 seat pick up for the Dems in the House, and anything from 49-51 to 51-49 in the Senate, along with 5-7 gubernatorial pick ups.
    The GOP led by 8% in 2010 in the House, 52% to 44%, a similar popular vote lead for the Democrats is possible tomorrow but would not see them pick up 60 to 70 seats even if they gained the House
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Foxy said:

    Brexit polling junkies will enjoy Channel 4 tonight, survation constituency polling a bit surprising.

    Not got the telly on.

    What's the verdict? (Need I ask :D )
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018
    dixiedean said:

    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.

    This is an example of something that's in extremely bad taste and the person or persons responsible should be looked down upon by all decent people, but it isn't or shouldn't be a crime in my opinion. (I have no idea whether it is or not).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    GIN1138 said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit polling junkies will enjoy Channel 4 tonight, survation constituency polling a bit surprising.

    Not got the telly on.

    What's the verdict? (Need I ask :D )
    49% think Brexit will be bad for the economy and 45% for their household finances apparently
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited November 2018
    AndyJS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Grenfell effigy. Utterly outrageous.

    This is an example of something that's in extremely bad taste and the person or persons responsible should be looked down upon by all decent people, but it isn't or shouldn't be a crime in my opinion. (I have no idea whether it is or not).
    I think the police are looking into it as a possible "hate crime" but I'm very unsure what the legal definition of "hate crime" is...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
  • @Barnesian, my condolences as well.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    GIN1138 said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit polling junkies will enjoy Channel 4 tonight, survation constituency polling a bit surprising.

    Not got the telly on.

    What's the verdict? (Need I ask :D )
    Swing to Remain in Sunderland.

    60% of voters want to keep FoM.

    Amongst others.
  • notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    Did you watch the video recording. It should offend everyone who sees it. Totally unacceptable
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    One final point - if the Dems take the House, they will be on all sorts of fishing expeditions to get Trump's tax returns, see if his family are profiting from foreign folks staying in their DC property, and that's just the beginning. They've already said they'll go after Kavanaugh.
  • notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    Have you seen the video
  • notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    The thing is with the likes of social media the tools behind this plenty of negative exposure. That seems like far more punishment than what would result from a plod investigation / possible charge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    42% now think immigration is positive, 38% negative, a reversal from 2013
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    My condolences Barnesian

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Labour 2018

    http://hurryupharry.org/2018/11/04/the-labour-party-branch-too-moral-to-the-condemn-pittsburgh-murders/

    12 months ago you might have said you couldn't make it up.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    Have you seen the video
    Are they actually hurting someone in the video?
  • dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    Have you seen the video
    No - your comments and those of others made me think it was not something I'd want to see. I'm inclined to the view that publicising outrage only ensures more people see it.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    Did you watch the video recording. It should offend everyone who sees it. Totally unacceptable

    Good. Being offended is a good thing. It means you are privileged enough to live in a free society where people can freely hold different views to you and you to them. Get over it.
  • notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    Have you seen the video
    No - your comments and those of others made me think it was not something I'd want to see. I'm inclined to the view that publicising outrage only ensures more people see it.
    You may change your view if you watched it. I am sure it is going to be across the media tomorrow
  • notme said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Offensive yes, but illegal? I'm with those who think the police have more important issues to deal with.
    Have you seen the video
    Are they actually hurting someone in the video?
    Those who have relatives and children who died in Grenville will be very hurt and I would expect furious
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
    Ah, so you're saying it's racist? If so, then I'd presume it will be investigated as a potential hate crime.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Survation poll has Remain 54% Leave 46% on C4 news
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit polling junkies will enjoy Channel 4 tonight, survation constituency polling a bit surprising.

    Not got the telly on.

    What's the verdict? (Need I ask :D )
    Swing to Remain in Sunderland.

    60% of voters want to keep FoM.

    Amongst others.
    Who knew that would be the verdict? Who knew! :D
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
    So what. It’s the colour of a piece of sodding paper. Jesus Christ. Get a grip.

    “And the worst of it was, the paper was brown. (Witness leaves the court room in a flood of tears)”
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
    Ah, so you're saying it's racist? If so, then I'd presume it will be investigated as a potential hate crime.
    That's why I hate the concept of hate crimes. Surely it would be equally offensive, equally as wrong, if they were any color?
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
    Ah, so you're saying it's racist? If so, then I'd presume it will be investigated as a potential hate crime.
    That's why I hate the concept of hate crimes. Surely it would be equally offensive, equally as wrong, if they were any color?
    Racism is not a crime.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    notme said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    Did you watch the video recording. It should offend everyone who sees it. Totally unacceptable

    Good. Being offended is a good thing. It means you are privileged enough to live in a free society where people can freely hold different views to you and you to them. Get over it.
    I’ve no objection to people holding different views to me, but the idea of finding the death of children of a different colour to me funny is something which appals me, and makes me think that the perpetrators may well have other similarly obscene material.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    HYUFD said:

    Survation poll has Remain 54% Leave 46% on C4 news

    Interesting map changes too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Justice Secretary David Gauke says if we get a deal could be a swing back to Leave, if No Deal could be a further swing to Remain
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    I’m with Mr North Wales. This is beyond distasteful. Just listening to a few second of it was enough.
    Distasteful it certainly was, but on this rare occasion I'm with notme. It was intended as a sick joke. It's not clever, it's not funny, and they all should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. But it's not a 'hate crime' and Plod really has better things to be spending his time on.
    Have to agree. If you can burn the Pope, Alex Salmond, Donald Trump, or whoever the heck else you feel like in effigy, then Grenfell is only a step away. Can't see what crime has been committed. Maybe burning effigies altogether might be a little outdated?
    That said, a naming and shaming might be appropriate for them. Idiots.
    The allegation is that the figures at the windows and those of little children were made out of brown paper. You can draw your own conclusions
    I understand. And I really am not making excuses for this despicable act. Personally, setting fire to images of persons you don't like, polluting the planet by burning loads of carbon, and terrorising animals and those of a nervous disposition by means of random explosions for underlying, if rarely overt, anti-Catholic reasons, is something I pass on.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:

    notme said:

    The lead story on ITV is beyond any form of words

    Burning of a Grenville Tower model with images at the windows on a bonfire is horific beyond words. What mentality do these people have and how could anyone think like that.

    The police are seeking information on those involved and this is one hate crime that needs the full force of the law to come down like a ton of bricks on those responsible

    Piffle. Something is not a crime because it is distasteful. Police need to get a grip and attend some burglaries.

    Why are we so knee jerk Puritan nowadays?
    Did you watch the video recording. It should offend everyone who sees it. Totally unacceptable

    Good. Being offended is a good thing. It means you are privileged enough to live in a free society where people can freely hold different views to you and you to them. Get over it.
    I’ve no objection to people holding different views to me, but the idea of finding the death of children of a different colour to me funny is something which appals me, and makes me think that the perpetrators may well have other similarly obscene material.
    See the bit before you said ‘but’. Just delete it. Rule of thumb.
This discussion has been closed.