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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How adding the words “and jobs” to the best party on the ec

SystemSystem Posts: 12,250
edited October 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How adding the words “and jobs” to the best party on the economy question gives a very different outcome

Today we saw the YouGov “best party” ratings on seven key policy areas. The economy one saw the CON lead increasing to 18%.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2013
    Is this not also comparing apples with pears in terms of sample groups?

    I bet Balls is relieved the IMF news didn't come out during y'days reshuffle..
  • Of course.

    Labour borrow billions and spend it all on non-jobs for their chums in the public sector.
  • tim said:

    The Marginals poll is done in seats that count, the MORI/YouGov polling includes a lot of Tories who live in safe seats and don't count

    Wow, thanks for that massive insight - so you agree. It isn't comparing like with like.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    FPT

    Well sacking Diane Abbot doesnt fit a lot of peoples agenda of Blairite clearouts, lurches to the left or an apple for teacher Len McLuskey?

    Maybe Ed's taking a leaf out of the UKIP book... just plain common sense
  • norman smith‏@BBCNormanS2m
    Labour @edballsmp on IMF upgrade "its good that we finally have some growth...but slowest recovery for 100 years"

    but but but the recovery wasn't coming and the Govt had to do Labour's 5-point plan for growth to get it?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    (a) the public think that the Tories can generally be trusted to manage the big picture
    (b) the public think that Labour are concerned about the average (wo)man on the street

    'Twas ever thus. Winning an election is partly about improving your reputation on your away turf and destroying your opponent's reputation on your turf. But mostly it's about on which turf the battle is fought.
  • That Labour is good " on jobs " is a fallacy. Every Labour administration has left office with increased unemployment.
    Labour has never worked.
  • tim said:

    Of course.

    Labour borrow billions and spend it all on non-jobs for their chums in the public sector.


    Spent less than Osborne is, perhaps buying off pensioners is a part of that?
    They are bound to spend more after a decade long credit boom that was propping up tax receipts came to an end. That and all the boomer public sector workers retiring on massive pensions gifted to them by Gordon Brown to buy their votes.

    The Tories have got their own special interest groups sure which should be cut, but the idea that if Labour had got back in at the last election that spending wouldn't have gone up even more than it has done is I'm afraid a load of old drivel.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    tim said:

    The Marginals poll is done in seats that count, the MORI/YouGov polling includes a lot of Tories who live in safe seats and don't count

    The Ashcroft marginals polling also included a national comparison survey and I have used the figures in that in the chart.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    That Labour is good " on jobs " is a fallacy. Every Labour administration has left office with increased unemployment.
    Labour has never worked.

    Whether something is true or not is irrelevant. In this business it is perceptions, measured by proper polling, that matter.

    If what you say is correct then the Tories have failed in their communication efforts.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Nara Hodge @NaraHodge
    I have never seen so much jubilation expressed on my TL as on the occasion of Diane #Abbott being sacked in #Labour #reshuffle

  • tim said:

    The Marginals poll is done in seats that count, the MORI/YouGov polling includes a lot of Tories who live in safe seats and don't count

    The Ashcroft marginals polling also included a national comparison survey and I have used the figures in that in the chart.

    You can't beat the OGH!!!

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    FPT

    Well sacking Diane Abbot doesnt fit a lot of peoples agenda of Blairite clearouts, lurches to the left or an apple for teacher Len McLuskey?

    Maybe Ed's taking a leaf out of the UKIP book... just plain common sense

    isam - you are turning into Labour and Ed's most prolific cheeleaders on here.


  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    The Ashcroft poll is now 6 weeks out of date. Is there much evidence that these polls are more reliable than regular polling?
  • tim said:

    tim said:

    Of course.

    Labour borrow billions and spend it all on non-jobs for their chums in the public sector.


    Spent less than Osborne is, perhaps buying off pensioners is a part of that?
    They are bound to spend more after a decade long credit boom that was propping up tax receipts came to an end. That and all the boomer public sector workers retiring on massive pensions gifted to them by Gordon Brown to buy their votes.

    The Tories have got their own special interest groups sure which should be cut, but the idea that if Labour had got back in at the last election that spending wouldn't have gone up even more than it has done is I'm afraid a load of old drivel.
    Spending is rising this year, that's Osborne paying for his failure, and paying for the pensioner promises.
    If it's Labours fault why has spending started rising at this stage of the parliament?

    Why? Because Labour spent two decades worth of money in a decade from 2000-2010. It'll take years to fix the mess they left.

    Admittedly the Tories haven't bothered to fix the problems either (they abandoned the cuts after a year or so of negativity) and are desperately trying to reinflate the debt bubble, but it was Labour who based the whole economy on debt and public spending. There is no way out without loads of pain which no one wants the blame for, so they'll just keep papering over the cracks until forced to do something about it by the markets.
  • In some ways it's a shame the Blairites didn't all quit the shad cab yesterday as it would then have been informative to see how many future Dan Hodges articles still then had unnamed quotes of dis-satisfaction about Ed from the aforementioned crack squad that is the shad cab.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    we need charts with just "jobs" and "jobs and the economy"

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    "The fact is that last year McCLuskey demanded the sacking of Liam Byrne, Stephen Twigg and Jim Murphy. They have now all been sacked. A month ago his demand was that the two suspended Unite officials Carrie Murphy and Stevie Deans be reinstated to the Labour Party. They were duly reinstated to the Labour Party. Unite’s leader has developed the happy knack of getting what he wants, and that fact won’t have been lost on the remaining members of the shadow cabinet or the rest of the parliamentary Labour Party.

    The other big winners were the Brownites. Vernon Coaker secured promotion to Jim Murphy’s old job at Defence. Spencer Livermore, Gordon Brown’s old director of strategy, has been brought in to run the election campaign, alongside another Brownite Michael Dugher and estranged Brownite Douglas Alexander..." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100240360/only-the-brownites-can-save-labour-now/
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,592
    edited October 2013
    Yougov asks on unemployment and has it a tie (Lab +2) so does seem the base samples are out of whack here rather than it being the pure question causing that difference.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    felix said:

    The Ashcroft poll is now 6 weeks out of date. Is there much evidence that these polls are more reliable than regular polling?

    Marginals polling is hard so overall they're probably worse for national stuff than the equivalent national polling, but
    1) cumulatively it's a monster of a sample.
    2) Ashcroft has a knack for asking good questions.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    felix said:

    The Ashcroft poll is now 6 weeks out of date. Is there much evidence that these polls are more reliable than regular polling?

    Marginals polling is hard so overall they're probably worse for national stuff than the equivalent national polling, but
    1) cumulatively it's a monster of a sample.
    2) Ashcroft has a knack for asking good questions.
    Thanks - as I suspected.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    For those of you who thought that last night's Newsnight political coverage hit a new low - go back to 2008 to see that things really were worse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7JX8D1Kb88
  • tim said:
    From Hopi:

    However, trying to step back, I’d argue that some members of the Shadow Cabinet managed to make themselves unshuffleable, either through personal loyalty or by building up a base of support inside the party that would regard their departure as unacceptably painful.

    Whoever could he possibly be referring to?
  • Alison McGovern and Gavin Shuker to Shadow International Development. Shuker was at DEFRA.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,592
    maaarsh said:

    Yougov asks on unemployment and has it a tie (Lab +2) so does seem the base samples are out of whack here rather than it being the pure question causing that difference.

    Ipsos MORI the same - asks on unemployment seperately and has Lab + 4.

    So the graph above seems to show such a disjunction due to sample differences rather than the question.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Brilliant on what other damage @DPMcBride did: to policy-making http://t.co/8EwIFJTcVJ
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 11m
    I'm told sacking of Diane Abbott cd clear way for her to stand as Labour candidate for Mayor of London.

    Will she face the wrath of Khan ?

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    That Labour is good " on jobs " is a fallacy. Every Labour administration has left office with increased unemployment.
    Labour has never worked.

    Whether something is true or not is irrelevant. In this business it is perceptions, measured by proper polling, that matter.

    If what you say is correct then the Tories have failed in their communication efforts.

    It's also interesting to see Labour being accused of borrowing to create lots of non-jobs to buy votes, with no regard to the health of the economy, whilst simultaneously decreasing employment. You'd think that if the former accusation was true that they'd at least make sure they created *enough* non-jobs...

    The risk here from a Blue perspective is a view of "what has The Economy ever done for us?" becoming widespread among normal working people. If a large chunk of the electorate sees the abstract concept of the national economy as something which doesn't affect their own economic wellbeing, and they are thinking of that concept when answering the question, it's completely irrelevant who has a lead on the point. That's why the Tories attempt to couple envy-inducing attacks on benefit claimants with the health of the economy - the strategy is to personalise the economy as an issue so that the default Tory lead translates into votes.
  • Leading questions - "Yes, Prime Minister":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Of course.

    Labour borrow billions and spend it all on non-jobs for their chums in the public sector.


    Spent less than Osborne is, perhaps buying off pensioners is a part of that?
    They are bound to spend more after a decade long credit boom that was propping up tax receipts came to an end. That and all the boomer public sector workers retiring on massive pensions gifted to them by Gordon Brown to buy their votes.

    The Tories have got their own special interest groups sure which should be cut, but the idea that if Labour had got back in at the last election that spending wouldn't have gone up even more than it has done is I'm afraid a load of old drivel.
    Spending is rising this year, that's Osborne paying for his failure, and paying for the pensioner promises.
    If it's Labours fault why has spending started rising at this stage of the parliament?

    Are you looking at real TME, or are you looking at the headline numbers which serve no purpose apart from giving you a meaningless soundbite?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jameschappers: Um MT "@LeeJasper Ed fires only black woman in his cabinet and retains weak ass black men"
  • That Labour is good " on jobs " is a fallacy. Every Labour administration has left office with increased unemployment.
    Labour has never worked.

    Whether something is true or not is irrelevant. In this business it is perceptions, measured by proper polling, that matter.

    If what you say is correct then the Tories have failed in their communication efforts.

    Agreed , but it's worth pointing out that Labour has consistently failed to deliver on its raison d'etre.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    The Parole Board has said it has directed the release of the mother of Baby Peter, Tracey Connelly.

    She was jailed indefinitely, with a recommended minimum term of five years in May 2009, for causing or allowing her son's death. The Parole Board has recommended her release from prison following a second review of her case.The board said arrangements and the date of the release were a matter for the secretary of state.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24446126

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited October 2013
    James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers

    Um MT "@LeeJasper Ed fires only black woman in his cabinet and retains weak ass black men

    He can't mean our chuka ,can he ;-)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Brilliant on what other damage @DPMcBride did: to policy-making http://t.co/8EwIFJTcVJ

    That's deeply depressing.

    Worth reading.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @dlknowles: Oh this is pathetic. New homes needn't cost anything to taxpayer & new hospitals generate no economic return: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/labour-sends-cameron-another-warning-over-hs2

    @dlknowles: If Labour is going to ditch HS2 support, they'd better propose spending the entire £50bn on transport and actually specify where.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''The risk here from a Blue perspective is a view of "what has The Economy ever done for us?" becoming widespread among normal working people.''

    Indeed.

    So how about a bit of popular capitalism?

    Royal Mail is ten times oversubscribed, according to sources.....

    Grey is said to be 395/405 -

    Maximum price for those allocated will be 330...

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited October 2013
    Labour are planning to spend the HS2, trident and Hinkley point sums on benefits and public sector bribes rather than investment ?

    Crazy.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited October 2013
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Brilliant on what other damage @DPMcBride did: to policy-making http://t.co/8EwIFJTcVJ

    Just "some bloke"...spends a few hours on the t'interweb and soon he is the government expert on the economics of fuel pricing...a few more hours on the t'interweb and he is a mag-lev train expert...Government by wikipedia!

    It is worse than the Thick of It episode on government experts....at least in that episode they were actual experts, just the government didn't listen to one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Labour are planning to spend the HS2, trident and Hinkley point sums on benefits and public sector bribes rather than investment ?

    Crazy.

    Gordonomics 101 as preached by Ed Balls.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Labour are planning to spend the HS2, trident and Hinkley point sums on benefits and public sector bribes rather than investment ?

    Crazy.

    Gordonomics 101 as preached by Ed Balls.
    Greekonomics with a compusalry essay on the wonders of the Detroit economy ?

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    felix said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
    Not at all my view , but I can look at a poll which says Conservatives are at 36% in Scotland and place it in the round receptacle that it belongs .
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    felix said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
    Not at all my view , but I can look at a poll which says Conservatives are at 36% in Scotland and place it in the round receptacle that it belongs .
    So all yougov daily polls with Cons say > 20% in Scotland are garbage ?

    Interesting..
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited October 2013
    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    IIRC the numbers being polled in each the seats involved in the Ashcroft poll were fewer than 300 - getting all the sophisticated bases/weightings etc correct per constituency is extraordinary complex notwithstanding the seemingly impressive overall total.

    I'd far more trust a national opinion poll (YouGov, Populus, ICM, MORI, Comres) to gain an accurate reading of opinion than these multi constituency jobbies.

    I wish my chum and erstwhile pb contributor, Dr Robert Waller, were here to give the pollster's pollster analysis.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    felix said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
    Not at all my view , but I can look at a poll which says Conservatives are at 36% in Scotland and place it in the round receptacle that it belongs .
    YouGov is not perfect but it is regular as are you judging by your toilet reference and it regularly gives a different picture to the Ashcroft polling.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    TGOHF said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
    Not at all my view , but I can look at a poll which says Conservatives are at 36% in Scotland and place it in the round receptacle that it belongs .
    So all yougov daily polls with Cons say > 20% in Scotland are garbage ?

    Interesting..
    I did not give a figure that figure of 20% but concede you may have a valid argument there . The Conservatives at 36% in Scotland in this poll is not the only oddity in the detailed figures .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
  • tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    and you think you will get a more rounded picture from today's Yougov with it's clearly freak sample ?
    No - but I see little point in the theory that the poll I don't like must be wrong which is apparently your view.
    Not at all my view , but I can look at a poll which says Conservatives are at 36% in Scotland and place it in the round receptacle that it belongs .
    YouGov is not perfect but it is regular as are you judging by your toilet reference and it regularly gives a different picture to the Ashcroft polling.
    My visits to the toilet are more regular than Yougov polls
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Labour are planning to spend the HS2, trident and Hinkley point sums on benefits and public sector bribes rather than investment ?

    Crazy.

    Which party always spends more on benefits,you should have learned by now
    So no denial that you'd like to see it spent on wages rather than transport.

    Crazy.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.


    eg??

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    JohnO said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    IIRC the numbers being polled in each the seats involved in the Ashcroft poll were fewer than 300 - getting all the sophisticated bases/weightings etc correct per constituency is extraordinary complex notwithstanding the seemingly impressive overall total.

    I'd far more trust a national opinion poll (YouGov, Populus, ICM, MORI, Comres) to gain an accurate reading of opinion than these multi constituency jobbies.

    I wish my chum and erstwhile pb contributor, Dr Robert Waller, were here to give the pollster's pollster analysis.
    That is a bit perverse saying that a national poll with numbers polled at an average of 3 per constituency is more accurate than a more specialised one with around 300 . I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.
    You been on the German ICE trains Sunil ? Bloody marvellous contraption.



  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.

    You mean like a project to increase capacity on the West Coast Mainline?

    Oh, wait...
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Labour are planning to spend the HS2, trident and Hinkley point sums on benefits and public sector bribes rather than investment ?

    Crazy.

    Which party always spends more on benefits,you should have learned by now
    Q. Which party puts more people in the unemployment line?

    A. "Labour". I wish they had learned by now.
  • tessyCtessyC Posts: 106
    On HS2, given that the government and the new chief of the scheme have been stating how vital political consensus among the parties is if the project is to go forward, surely Labour U-turning on it would provide an opportunity for the Government to drop it and blame Labour.
  • JonathanD said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.
    eg??

    I'm not sure eggs would come under that :)
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited October 2013

    JohnO said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    IIRC the numbers being polled in each the seats involved in the Ashcroft poll were fewer than 300 - getting all the sophisticated bases/weightings etc correct per constituency is extraordinary complex notwithstanding the seemingly impressive overall total.

    I'd far more trust a national opinion poll (YouGov, Populus, ICM, MORI, Comres) to gain an accurate reading of opinion than these multi constituency jobbies.

    I wish my chum and erstwhile pb contributor, Dr Robert Waller, were here to give the pollster's pollster analysis.
    That is a bit perverse saying that a national poll with numbers polled at an average of 3 per constituency is more accurate than a more specialised one with around 300 . I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .
    I don't think you will find any such postings from me - I tend to err on the side of caution where polls are concerned. In any event I answer solely for myself, thank you all the same.

    I haven't seen Robert for a while, so I'll give him a call and seek his wisdom on the relative merits of a single national poll and those based on cumulative totals over selected individual seats. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it.
  • Scott_P said:


    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.

    You mean like a project to increase capacity on the West Coast Mainline?

    Oh, wait...
    You can already do London to Brum in 1hr 22 mins - via Euston, Rugby and New Street. Alternatively, if you prefer the scenic route, there's the under-used route from Marylebone to Moor Street via Banbury.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    FPT

    Well sacking Diane Abbot doesnt fit a lot of peoples agenda of Blairite clearouts, lurches to the left or an apple for teacher Len McLuskey?

    Maybe Ed's taking a leaf out of the UKIP book... just plain common sense

    isam - you are turning into Labour and Ed's most prolific cheeleaders on here.


    Nooo!

    I don't mind Ed Miliband actually, and I guess I still want Labour to be good guys in the way you still sometimes daydream what life would be like if it had worked out with an ex
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,315
    edited October 2013
    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    The money would be better spent improving existing infrastructure.
    You been on the German ICE trains Sunil ? Bloody marvellous contraption.
    Sadly, no, but I have been on the Eurostar and Hitachi Javelin trains.

    [taken by yours truly]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unit_395008_at_Ebbsfleet_International.JPG
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets

    Top two issues, economy and health

    2010 Lib Dems

    Lab lead on economy 21%
    Lab lead on health 32%

    No wonder the PB Tories like that 8 sample focus group

    You made an identical comment this morning - and twice ignored today's You Gov. Cherry picking your favourite polls adds little to your credibility.

    You want me to explain why I'm looking at the polling of those who will decide the election?
    I didn't ask you a question - it's perfectly clear that you are interested only in data which supports your beliefs. Perfectly understandable but of little interest for those who want a more rounded picture of what's happening.
    IIRC the numbers being polled in each the seats involved in the Ashcroft poll were fewer than 300 - getting all the sophisticated bases/weightings etc correct per constituency is extraordinary complex notwithstanding the seemingly impressive overall total.

    I'd far more trust a national opinion poll (YouGov, Populus, ICM, MORI, Comres) to gain an accurate reading of opinion than these multi constituency jobbies.

    I wish my chum and erstwhile pb contributor, Dr Robert Waller, were here to give the pollster's pollster analysis.
    That is a bit perverse saying that a national poll with numbers polled at an average of 3 per constituency is more accurate than a more specialised one with around 300 . I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .
    I don't think you will find any such postings from me - I tend to err on the side of caution where polls are concerned. In any event I answer solely for myself, thank you all the same.

    I haven't seen Robert for a while, so I'll give him a call and seek his wisdom on the relative merits of a single national poll and those based on cumulative totals over selected individual seats. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it.
    IIRC , Robert is in the process of moving house to either in or close to your constituency .
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    You can already do London to Brum in 1hr 22 mins - via Euston, Rugby and New Street. Alternatively, if you prefer the scenic route, there's the under-used route from Marylebone to Moor Street via Banbury.

    I have travelled both those routes, but neither the speed of the mainline, or the capacity of the branch lines, answers the question of capacity on the mainline.

    Good try though.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited October 2013
    tim said:



    Dan Hodges.

    I keep looking for a "right wing" Hodges equivalent in the Guardian but keep failing.

    Surely they must have a tame uncle tom too ?
  • tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    Housing and transport are infrastructure, you shouldn't let your HS2 fixation blind you to that
    The reason that people don't think the government shouldn't spend a fortune of our money on pet projects is because they aren't very good at it, whether it is on HS2 or council slums of the future.

    Saying that you want infrastructure spending and then complain when it is a waste of money is really making their point for them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .

    Maybe doubts would have been appropriate though, I'm not sure the marginals polls turned out to have a lot of predictive power last time.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited October 2013
    tessyC said:

    On HS2, given that the government and the new chief of the scheme have been stating how vital political consensus among the parties is if the project is to go forward, surely Labour U-turning on it would provide an opportunity for the Government to drop it and blame Labour.

    Though I am generally in favour of HS2 - and similarly grandiose schemes - this might be better than trying to hold onto it and effectively giving Labour permission to spend £50bn on a few newspaper headlines.

    Kill HS2. Put a couple of billion into some more modest infrastructure improvements. Take ~£40bn off the debt projections.

    Then Balls doesn't have political cover for £50bn of promises of jam before the election.

    You know, STV would make it so much easier for the voters to squeeze duplicitous little .. idiots like Balls out of politics.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2013

    James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers

    Um MT "@LeeJasper Ed fires only black woman in his cabinet and retains weak ass black men

    He can't mean our chuka ,can he ;-)

    You know when right on lefties get all smart arse and say "try putting the word "black" there instead of "women" "gay" etc... doesn't look good does it?"

    Imagine swapping the words Lee Jasper for any UKIP politician, counting how many times they mention the colour of someone's skin in their writings, standing back and watching the explosion from PC World

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    Marginals poll - Lab Targets



    IIRC , Robert is in the process of moving house to either in or close to your constituency .

    Indeed he was when last we met for supper in early summer. But the deal had not yet been sealed. Does he still post on the successor to Vote 2007? Anyway, I'll send him an e-mail. I don't think he lurks here any more.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    @MarkSenior - Indeed he was when last we met for supper in early summer. But the deal had not yet been sealed. Does he still post on the successor to Vote 2007? Anyway, I'll send him an e-mail. I don't think he lurks here any more.
  • Scott_P said:


    You can already do London to Brum in 1hr 22 mins - via Euston, Rugby and New Street. Alternatively, if you prefer the scenic route, there's the under-used route from Marylebone to Moor Street via Banbury.

    I have travelled both those routes, but neither the speed of the mainline, or the capacity of the branch lines, answers the question of capacity on the mainline.

    Good try though.
    The trouble with HS2 as designed is - how do you get to the remotely sited "parkway stations"? It would take as long to get to your connection as it would to go from London to Brum (or points north of there)!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    Housing and transport are infrastructure, you shouldn't let your HS2 fixation blind you to that
    But you'd be cancelling a vital piece of transport infrastructure, and as NPxMP says on his blog, spending most of it on non-infrastructure items such as tax credits!

    And it's not a fixation; it is having looked into it and not having seen much of an alternative. As have the experts.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    tim said:

    Tim Shipman (Mail) ‏@ShippersUnbound 13m
    Osborne got what he wanted from reshuffle, but Theresa May's request for Nicola Blackwood was rejected & Hague failed to save Alistair Burt

    Anyone know why the poisonous chancellor sacked Burt?

    Have you any evidence - even a scintilla - that Osborne was in any way involved with Burt's sacking. Of course you haven't. well, you managed a few hours before reverting to dip-stick mode., I suppose it's progress of a sort.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    "I keep looking for a "right wing" Hodges equivalent in the Guardian but keep failing.

    Surely they must have a tame uncle tom too ?"

    The DT has by far the widest range of opinion columnists. I think the last sorta Tory the Guardian had was Julian Glover - Mr Matthew Parris - he left to work for Number 10 IIRC about a year ago.
  • Funny to see the PB Tories wetting themselves at the prospect of public transport investment. Wasn't it the blessed Maggie who told us you were a failure if you travelled by bus once you reach the age of 30?
  • tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Labour sends Cameron another warning over its support for HS2 http://t.co/Jl6N5JL1Yk

    Tick tock

    I find it hilarious that you spent over a year bemoaning a lack of infrastructure investment, and when a big and vital one gets the go-ahead, you suddenly want the money spent on non-infrastructure!

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
    Housing and transport are infrastructure, you shouldn't let your HS2 fixation blind you to that
    Tim how long do you think it takes to get entirely new large scale infrastructure project from conception to the start of construction?

    Cancelling HS2 will massively delay the infrastructure spending you claim to favour whilst at the same time preventing a much needed step change in rail capacity. Your desire to see this project cancelled appears to be entirely motivated by your hope that it would be seen as a defeat for the government. Heaven forbid!
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    JohnO said:

    @MarkSenior - Indeed he was when last we met for supper in early summer. But the deal had not yet been sealed. Does he still post on the successor to Vote 2007? Anyway, I'll send him an e-mail. I don't think he lurks here any more.

    Yes Robert takes part in the council by election result forecasting competition but I am sure he said that he may have to miss this month's because of his house move .
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .

    Maybe doubts would have been appropriate though, I'm not sure the marginals polls turned out to have a lot of predictive power last time.
    Do any polls 2 years before an event have a great deal of predictive power ?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2013
    JohnO said:

    tim said:

    Tim Shipman (Mail) ‏@ShippersUnbound 13m
    Osborne got what he wanted from reshuffle, but Theresa May's request for Nicola Blackwood was rejected & Hague failed to save Alistair Burt

    Anyone know why the poisonous chancellor sacked Burt?

    Have you any evidence - even a scintilla - that Osborne was in any way involved with Burt's sacking. Of course you haven't. well, you managed a few hours before reverting to dip-stick mode., I suppose it's progress of a sort.
    Tim's popped on his tin foil hat, and gone all conspiracy theory. He's pb.com's very own Norman Baker.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited October 2013
    Next said:
    Seems a bit rubbish - it doesn't mention capacity at all. Isn't that meant to be the whole point of HS2?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Funny to see the PB Tories wetting themselves at the prospect of public transport investment. Wasn't it the blessed Maggie who told us you were a failure if you travelled by bus once you reach the age of 30?

    Lol -I think that maybe something you heard because it resonated rather than actually happened:)
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .

    Maybe doubts would have been appropriate though, I'm not sure the marginals polls turned out to have a lot of predictive power last time.
    It ended up with the uncertainty of whether the situation changed or the polling was out.

    There was an academic section to the LSE polling seminar I went to (the blog post was delayed by LD conference and may be past it's sell by date now) but there is a group trying to do work on constituency level interpretation of results.

    http://constituencyopinion.org.uk/ is the link that explains their efforts.
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    Next said:
    Seems a bit rubbish - it doesn't mention capacity at all. Isn't that meant to be the whole point of HS2?
    It was covered in point 1.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Great nugget http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robertcolvile/100240353/two-tory-mps-just-got-a-billion-pound-promotion/

    "If you look at the list of reshuffled ministers, you'll notice by the names of Karen Bradley and Sam Gyimah, who move to senior positions in the Whips' Office, the phrase "(lord commissioner)". This means that, as well as keeping discipline within the Tory party, these MPs have – as a former holder of their office once proudly told me – a rather unusual job: they get to sign the cheques.

    We think of the model of government as simple: money comes in via taxes, rather more money goes out as spending, and we borrow billions to make up for it. But in fact, all of that spending has to be signed off on. That's the job of the Lord High Treasurer, one of the great officers of state. Except that we haven't had one since 1714. His job is instead done by a board of commissioners – the Lords of the Treasury."
  • tim said:

    All Osborne's flunkies got promoted and Dave forgot to appoint an Armed Forces Minister, applying Occams razor I'd say the man who ran the reshuffle more efficiently was the poisonous chancellor, so did he have Burt sacked, it's a simliar move to his sacking of Charles Hendry last time

    It's not Occam's Razor you're applying, tim, but your favourite explanation for everything the government does: Osborne's Rapier.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .

    Maybe doubts would have been appropriate though, I'm not sure the marginals polls turned out to have a lot of predictive power last time.
    Do any polls 2 years before an event have a great deal of predictive power ?
    They seem to to our Tim given the way he responds to the ones he likes.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    tim said:

    JohnO said:

    tim said:

    Tim Shipman (Mail) ‏@ShippersUnbound 13m
    Osborne got what he wanted from reshuffle, but Theresa May's request for Nicola Blackwood was rejected & Hague failed to save Alistair Burt

    Anyone know why the poisonous chancellor sacked Burt?

    Have you any evidence - even a scintilla - that Osborne was in any way involved with Burt's sacking. Of course you haven't. well, you managed a few hours before reverting to dip-stick mode., I suppose it's progress of a sort.
    All Osborne's flunkies got promoted and Dave forgot to appoint an Armed Forces Minister, applying Occams razor I'd say the man who ran the reshuffle more efficiently was the poisonous chancellor, so did he have Burt sacked, it's a simliar move to his sacking of Charles Hendry last time

    You're dribbling. Incomprehensible.

    Er, and longstanding Osborne associate Mark Hoban? Tell us about his promotion.

    You need help (as someone has so wisely counselled).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Gary Anderson reckons the medium tyres in Suzuka might suffer, as per Yeongam: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24446906
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    Next said:

    Next said:
    Seems a bit rubbish - it doesn't mention capacity at all. Isn't that meant to be the whole point of HS2?
    It was covered in point 1.
    That's talking about road capacity, the point is supposed to be that north-south rail capacity is full.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Wasn't it the blessed Maggie who told us you were a failure if you travelled by bus once you reach the age of 30?

    HS2 is not a bus...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    tessyC said:

    On HS2, given that the government and the new chief of the scheme have been stating how vital political consensus among the parties is if the project is to go forward, surely Labour U-turning on it would provide an opportunity for the Government to drop it and blame Labour.

    Though I am generally in favour of HS2 - and similarly grandiose schemes - this might be better than trying to hold onto it and effectively giving Labour permission to spend £50bn on a few newspaper headlines.

    Kill HS2. Put a couple of billion into some more modest infrastructure improvements. Take ~£40bn off the debt projections.

    Then Balls doesn't have political cover for £50bn of promises of jam before the election.

    You know, STV would make it so much easier for the voters to squeeze duplicitous little .. idiots like Balls out of politics.
    The problem is this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. If it gets cancelled now, it will be decades before anything like it is on the table. The NIMBY's and idiots will have won for a generation.

    And it is needed. There is not a single report that shows the capacity can be met any other way. Upgrading of the WCML is a massively expensive option for very limited gains. Extra capacity cannot be created on the Chiltern lines without massive cost for equally limited gains. It's all been looked into, in the following comprehensive document amongst others. It's well worth a read if you want the background:
    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/alternativestudy/pdf/railintervention.pdf

    The problem with Labour's position is that they haven't argued with the underlying contention: that capacity is going to run out on lines between London and the north.

    If that remains the case, then there's a question of what is done about it if HS2 is cancelled. All the documents shows that Nick Palmer's ludicrous assertion of "20 projects of £100 million each, easing bottle necks all over the country here and now" is utter cloud-cuckoo land on a number of levels. An astoundingly stupid statement for him to come out with.

    You also need to consider the economic consequences if the railway routes *do* become capacity limited. Fares will increase, and there will be more lorry and passenger traffic on the already-congested motorway network.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited October 2013

    I do not recall such doubts about the Ashcroft marginal polls in 2008/2009 from you Conservative posters then .

    Maybe doubts would have been appropriate though, I'm not sure the marginals polls turned out to have a lot of predictive power last time.
    Do any polls 2 years before an event have a great deal of predictive power ?
    Well, you'd hope the marginals polls would at least tell you something that turns out to be true about differential performance in the marginals.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LabourList: Labour reshuffle - Unconfirmed rumours that Luciana Berger is the new Shadow Public Health Minister, replacing Abbott http://labli.st/16PhsxT
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Although the growth news is obviously good, I suspect the release of the mother of Baby P will be the one that most people will be talking about.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24446126

    Seems quite despicably lenient, and comes shortly after two mothers have been put on trial for comparable cases.
This discussion has been closed.