The Mail is doing what it does well. There are no shades of grey in tabloid-land, Ralph's a good 'un or a bad 'un. And for some in politics, it's the same. Cammo will always be a posh fop unless, of course, he converts to socialism. In which case, he could join the Labour front bench and immediately become a doughty fighter for justice.
Best to judge people on what they become rather than what they once were. Damian McBride is now a nice guy. I was very left-wing at 17 ...... I got better though.
Clearly, when they make uncomfortable reading for millionaire politicians in their Dartmouth Park bubbles.
Meanwhile, lets enjoy the spectacle of the various Leftwing mouthpieces alienating anyone who owns a breadmaker.
Losing the breadmaker demographic would surely be a disaster.
You may well mock, but they're flying off the shelves in their 000's. Even Argos are selling them to the Lower Orders.
'Atkins is out and artisan breads are in, and increasingly we’re making our own. That’s according to John Lewis, which has seen a 70 per cent increase in sales of bread-makers over the last year with a 33 per cent spike in purchases following the first episode of this year’s Great British Bake Off.'
I'm an expert on coffee machines. I still prefer bean-to-cup but my other half, who makes the decisions on these things, is a Nespresso convert. They do have the best milk frothers in the business though.
Stace @stackee Feel sorry for all my Labour comrades who are now hurriedly throwing away their breadmakers in a bid to look more in-touch & on message.
OK, I think we're all clear on each other's attitudes to the Mail's article: Richard N thinks it an important indicator of shifting opinion, SeanT is uncharacteristically on the fence, most of the rest of us think it sucks and appreciate Cameron for saying so.
Moving on, a genuine question - what is a breadmaker? Do you stuff some gadget with sticky dough (euuu) and then put it in the oven and wait two hours, or something? How does anyone find the time?
Really Nick? You don't know how a breadmaker works? You just lump in the flour, yeast and water (with some olive oil) and that's it.
Takes about a minute, let the machine do the rest, and you have fresh ready made bread.
This is hilarious - there are millions of breadmaker owners - I have a Panasonic one as does the PM - it was recommended to me a few years ago by a friend who's housebound.
I tried being a bit too clever with it and ended up with some strange bricks but they're great and simple. I also have an egg boiler which is magical!
When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.
I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
The only risk is that the stakes are too low for Financier to bother with.
Neil, presume you have not played poker with people who may get a bit upset when you are "called" and having a losing hand are unable to support your bets due to insufficient resources - cash. Best to stick with Tim's £50 at evens.
Actually I agree with your thought, but am not sure how far along the Nationalisation route EdM would go, having got one under his belt - so-to-speak. If something works once it is very tempting to follow the same path and McLuskey would be right behind him.
LOL, what bollocks, you sound more like Billy Liar every day. Presume you have a few down the back of the couch.
No, only losers would think of looking down the back of the couch, chair, settee or whatever. Is that what the SNP does when it is a bit short of funds?
Unlike you they live in the real world and actually have money in the bank
Clearly, when they make uncomfortable reading for millionaire politicians in their Dartmouth Park bubbles.
Meanwhile, lets enjoy the spectacle of the various Leftwing mouthpieces alienating anyone who owns a breadmaker.
Losing the breadmaker demographic would surely be a disaster.
Do you not have one ?
No chance. We have an unopened smoothie maker somewhere. It's easiest just to get sliced.
Breadmakers aren't any hassle, they never quite produce the crust finish of a traditional oven loaf but first thing in the morning, hot bread's pretty good especially the smell when you walk into the kitchen.
Speaking as a neutral in this debate I suspect the nature of Ed's "socalism" is being misinterpreted. It has little to do with the nationalised industry and trade union dominated society of the 1960's and 1970's. It is more to do with selected state intervention - the sort of thing the French have done for years or used to do at least. While climate change secretary he mooted the idea that British companies shouldn't be so easily acquired by foreigners and advocated introducing legislation to make the process harder. Maybe in fact he is more of an adherent of Heseltine than Marx.
If we can rise above the tedious fray, my guess is that if a paper has been around long enough, and considers itself national and important enough to take positions - then if you dig deep, you will find it has expressed any number of dubious opinions, in the past.
There's probably some Times article in 1927 saying Mussolini ain't so bad.
It's all pretty meaningless.
Its not meaningless because whilst many learnt their lessons in the 1930s I am pretty damn sure that if the Nazis ever rose again their number 1 British backer would be the Daily Mail,
Stace @stackee Feel sorry for all my Labour comrades who are now hurriedly throwing away their breadmakers in a bid to look more in-touch & on message.
OK, I think we're all clear on each other's attitudes to the Mail's article: Richard N thinks it an important indicator of shifting opinion, SeanT is uncharacteristically on the fence, most of the rest of us think it sucks and appreciate Cameron for saying so.
Moving on, a genuine question - what is a breadmaker? Do you stuff some gadget with sticky dough (euuu) and then put it in the oven and wait two hours, or something? How does anyone find the time?
Not another aspiring Labour MP who is not in touch with the hard-working classes. Oh to be able to live such an elevated lifestyle
But ice cream makers are even more fun than breadmakers.
Now you're just being 'out of touch'...
Now you have me worried, I have a smoothie maker and an espresso machine.
Smoothie makers take longer to clean than Osborne spent preparing his 2012 budget. And as for juicers, they are more labour intensive than getting factor fifty out of Eric Pickles' crevices.
I agree with that, the smoothie make is just work, I leave it to the Mrs. to sort herself out.
Reading all this stuff about what Milliband Senior did or didn't do, a thought struck me. Is Paul Dacre the most unpleasant person in British public life?
Reading all this stuff about what Milliband Senior did or didn't do, a thought struck me. Is Paul Dacre the most unpleasant person in British public life?
Whilst I am no fan of Paul Dacre, were it not for him (and others), the murderers of Stephen Lawrence would still be walking the streets.
Stace @stackee Feel sorry for all my Labour comrades who are now hurriedly throwing away their breadmakers in a bid to look more in-touch & on message.
OK, I think we're all clear on each other's attitudes to the Mail's article: Richard N thinks it an important indicator of shifting opinion, SeanT is uncharacteristically on the fence, most of the rest of us think it sucks and appreciate Cameron for saying so.
Moving on, a genuine question - what is a breadmaker? Do you stuff some gadget with sticky dough (euuu) and then put it in the oven and wait two hours, or something? How does anyone find the time?
Not another aspiring Labour MP who is not in touch with the hard-working classes. Oh to be able to live such an elevated lifestyle
But ice cream makers are even more fun than breadmakers.
Now you're just being 'out of touch'...
Now you have me worried, I have a smoothie maker and an espresso machine.
Dilemma – I have a smoothie maker and an espresso machine, but no bread maker, preferring instead the conventional oven made – am I in touch, out of touch or just slightly touched…?
But ice cream makers are even more fun than breadmakers.
Now you're just being 'out of touch'...
Now you have me worried, I have a smoothie maker and an espresso machine.
Smoothie makers take longer to clean than Osborne spent preparing his 2012 budget. And as for juicers, they are more labour intensive than getting factor fifty out of Eric Pickles' crevices.
I agree with that, the smoothie make is just work, I leave it to the Mrs. to sort herself out.
Are the two halves of that sentence supposed to be connected in some way?
Two reviews of electrical products in one sentence tim.
That Rod Liddle article is getting some ripe comments
The_greyhound • 2 minutes ago
The ranting hysteria on the Guardian website this morning is a joy to behold. The Guardian, which shifts fewer copies than the Daily Record, and its idle unproductive public sector readers, hate the free press, and especially the Daily Mail which outsells the Graun 9:1. And they can't forgive that the Daily Mail website leads the pack.
Good cartoon (I like the b&w ones best), but Sir Walter Mosley? Is that to p!ss off latter day blackshirts that their hero is being mistaken for a black-Jewish, lefty, US crimewriter?
"The written warning from Keith Anderson, the chief corporate officer of ScottishPower, to the Labour leader is the industry’s most explicit threat yet over the consequences of the Opposition’s controversial policy, announced last week.
“To the extent such a freeze would cause investors to doubt that they will receive an adequate return or to fear future similar interventions, those doubts and fears would be reflected in the appetite to invest,” he wrote.
Mr Anderson spelled out the Spanish-owned company’s plans to invest up to £15 billion over the next decade and to create up to 4,500 jobs. He hinted that this money would go elsewhere if Labour won the election in 2015 and went ahead with its plan to freeze energy bills for consumers and businesses for 20 months: “As an international energy company, we carefully analyse all of the major markets in the world. Maintaining principles of sound regulation and avoiding regulatory uncertainty are critical to securing this global investment in the UK. This is investment that could be made in many different countries but the UK market has been chosen as it is seen as working relatively well.”
On topic, most people won't notice, most of those that do will have their previous opinion reinforced and of those who don't, plenty will think 'politician and journalists throw mud - ho hum'.
It's not a pleasant article, nor is it particularly robust (who hasn't written or done something as a teenager that they later regret or at least wouldn't do now?). That said, I'm not sure Miliband is on to a winner dragging it out: if you wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it.
I don't think it's essential that a PM knows the price of a loaf of bread. However the image Cameron has made of himself is of the sort of man who does. That's why he looks like an idiot. Wasn't he photographed in a supermarket not long ago? A lot of people felt Dorries' criticism that Cameron and Osborne don't know the price of milk was below the belt. Certainly seemed hard on normal guy Dave. Perhaps she was just being accurate though?
I like the YouGov poll that suggested only 19% though Labour should follow the lead of new labour and 45% didn't. What will the Hodges tendency say now?
That Rod Liddle article is getting some ripe comments
The_greyhound • 2 minutes ago
The ranting hysteria on the Guardian website this morning is a joy to behold. The Guardian, which shifts fewer copies than the Daily Record, and its idle unproductive public sector readers, hate the free press, and especially the Daily Mail which outsells the Graun 9:1. And they can't forgive that the Daily Mail website leads the pack.
On topic, most people won't notice, most of those that do will have their previous opinion reinforced and of those who don't, plenty will think 'politician and journalists throw mud - ho hum'.
It's not a pleasant article, nor is it particularly robust (who hasn't written or done something as a teenager that they later regret or at least wouldn't do now?). That said, I'm not sure Miliband is on to a winner dragging it out: if you wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it.
On topic, most people won't notice, most of those that do will have their previous opinion reinforced and of those who don't, plenty will think 'politician and journalists throw mud - ho hum'.
It's not a pleasant article, nor is it particularly robust (who hasn't written or done something as a teenager that they later regret or at least wouldn't do now?). That said, I'm not sure Miliband is on to a winner dragging it out: if you wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it.
Interesting analogy about the pigs however I think Miliband will correctly identify that the public see him as weak and not prepared to get himself dirty wrestling the pigs. He'll conclude that this sort of thing makes himself look tough. The Mail gets good publicity and probably a boost to its website. It's a win win.
According to a little research I've done, Ralph Miliband served on the HMS Royal Arthur and the HMS Valorous during his time in the Royal Navy.
The HMS Royal Arthur was scrapped in 1921. I presume therefore that he served AT HMS Royal Arthur, a naval training centre near Skegness.
The HMS Valorous was mainly used for convoy defense in the North Sea, and did not take part in the Normandy landings.
I believe Ed was being rather economical with the truth...
Anyone who has had relatives serving in the Navy in WW2 will know that the records are very much not to be trusted. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WW2 and was sunk 3 times. I know he was on the Murmansk runs as I have photographs of him in Archangel and his diaries from the time. Yet according to the Navy he was never up there. In addition I know of at least 4 ships he served on including one he was sunk on and rescued from and again the Navy has him on different ships. Indeed they have him listed as serving on one ship at the time it was lost with all hands. He died in 1975.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
That Rod Liddle article is getting some ripe comments
The_greyhound • 2 minutes ago
The ranting hysteria on the Guardian website this morning is a joy to behold. The Guardian, which shifts fewer copies than the Daily Record, and its idle unproductive public sector readers, hate the free press, and especially the Daily Mail which outsells the Graun 9:1. And they can't forgive that the Daily Mail website leads the pack.
Given that Boris and Cameron keep gettting asked about the price of bread and milk, I wonder if anyone is brave enough to ask Gordon Brown about the price of gold?
The mails attack on ed miliband father for me is totally wrong,attack the man not his dead father.
This could be another brown letters to the relatives of dead soldiers moment,where it totally backfired on the sun newspaper and hurt the tories,just go look at the comments at the mail on ed milibands father,the criticism of the mail is winning.
Given that Boris and Cameron keep gettting asked about the price of bread and milk, I wonder if anyone is brave enough to ask Gordon Brown about the price of gold?
Price of a return train ticket to London would be a good start.
The Daily Mail is one of the worst things about modern British society. I'm glad someone is taking on its lies, hatred and hypocrisy. A shame the person to do it isn't of greater calibre than Ed Milliband
'Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?
How can this be, aren't we always being told on here that anti semitism is really the purlieu of lefties? Perhaps Miliband Sr was a self-hating Jew, Marxist and Brit.
'Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?
How can this be, aren't we always being told on here that anti semitism is really the purlieu of lefties? Perhaps Miliband Sr was a self-hating Jew, Marxist and Brit.
who is being/was anti -semitic? Not sure I understand your point
The Daily Mail is one of the worst things about modern British society. I'm glad someone is taking on its lies, hatred and hypocrisy. A shame the person to do it isn't of greater calibre than Ed Milliband
Same can be said about the guardian,it's bull from the left point of view,but I think this paper have being found out with it's sales drop,it might even have gone under if it wasn't for the BBC ;-)
Given that Boris and Cameron keep gettting asked about the price of bread and milk, I wonder if anyone is brave enough to ask Gordon Brown about the price of gold?
After McBride’s revelations on Gordon Brown, I doubt any journalist would risk getting within punching distance to ask the question.
Not sure this is exactly a key moment - the Beeb didn't feature it until well into their one o'clock news bulletin. Not sure it's necessarily a bad thing either - people need to know a bit more about a man who aspires to be P.M
AndrewSparrow @AndrewSparrow Maria Miller announces £10m anniversaries fund - theguardian.com/politics/2013/… - Will fund commemorations inc Agincourt and Beatrix Potter #cpc13
Well it is the 600th anniversary of The Battle of Agincourt in a couple of years time.
The most fitting tribute they could do to mark this anniversary is to rename London St Pancras train station as London Agincourt.
One for PB historians, did the rude v sign originate at the Battle of Agincourt?
It's associated with that in urban myth, but probably more general from the hundred years war.
The French were so upset with the welsh archers that they threatened to cut the fingers off any archer they captured. The rest, as they say, is history...
NASA @NASA Sorry, but we won't be tweeting/responding to replies during the government shutdown. Be back as soon as possible. notice.USA.gov
Hi we are from the galaxy Andromeda . We have noticed your planet in one of our telescopes and see that there are ape like monkeys walking on the Savannah. We suspect by the time you get this message you will be sophisticated enough to have evolved into intelligent beings capable of resoving differences and of workign together.
AUTOMATED REPLY Sorry, but we won't be tweeting/responding to replies during the government shutdown. Be back as soon as possible. notice.USA.gov
NASA @NASA Sorry, but we won't be tweeting/responding to replies during the government shutdown. Be back as soon as possible. notice.USA.gov
Hi we are from the galaxy Andromeda . We have noticed your planet in one of our telescopes and see that there are ape like monkeys walking on the Savannah. We suspect by the time you get this message you will be sophisticated enough to have evolved into intelligent beings capable of resoving differences and of workign together.
AUTOMATED REPLY Sorry, but we won't be tweeting/responding to replies during the government shutdown. Be back as soon as possible. notice.USA.gov
'Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?
How can this be, aren't we always being told on here that anti semitism is really the purlieu of lefties? Perhaps Miliband Sr was a self-hating Jew, Marxist and Brit.
who is being/was anti -semitic? Not sure I understand your point
'''Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?'
When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.
I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
The only risk is that the stakes are too low for Financier to bother with.
Neil, presume you have not played poker with people who may get a bit upset when you are "called" and having a losing hand are unable to support your bets due to insufficient resources - cash.
You really are unaware of how ridiculous you are, it's wonderful.
Ah bless, if only you had a little more self awareness.
'Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?
How can this be, aren't we always being told on here that anti semitism is really the purlieu of lefties? Perhaps Miliband Sr was a self-hating Jew, Marxist and Brit.
who is being/was anti -semitic? Not sure I understand your point
'''Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?'
You don't think that's anti semitic?
Well not really, not sure of the context of the quote but many jews were anti- british during the british occupation of Palestine. So to reason he may not like Britiain becasue he was jewish is a reasonable argument even if not necessarily true . It certainly isn't anti -semitic imo
According to a little research I've done, Ralph Miliband served on the HMS Royal Arthur and the HMS Valorous during his time in the Royal Navy.
The HMS Royal Arthur was scrapped in 1921. I presume therefore that he served AT HMS Royal Arthur, a naval training centre near Skegness.
The HMS Valorous was mainly used for convoy defense in the North Sea, and did not take part in the Normandy landings.
I believe Ed was being rather economical with the truth...
Anyone who has had relatives serving in the Navy in WW2 will know that the records are very much not to be trusted. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WW2 and was sunk 3 times. I know he was on the Murmansk runs as I have photographs of him in Archangel and his diaries from the time. Yet according to the Navy he was never up there. In addition I know of at least 4 ships he served on including one he was sunk on and rescued from and again the Navy has him on different ships. Indeed they have him listed as serving on one ship at the time it was lost with all hands. He died in 1975.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
But Miliband doesn't actually say that his father was there at Normandy; he implies it. I found a biography which mentions his time in the navy, it claims he saw action in the Med but doesn't mention D-Day. If he had been there, why wasn't it mentioned?
That's why I said Miliband was being economical with the truth; he wants everyone to think his dad was there but knows he wasn't.
Mr. T, your argument is fatally flawed. There's no way in hell that the EU can ever be anything other than the way it is. Tinkering changes can happen, but it will always be dominated by countries of Roman Law, not Common Law, and (excepting us and the frogs) countries generally shy of large scale intervention. Economically, its utterly incompatible (anyone who thought marrying Germany, Greece, Spain and Italy in a currency union must've been stark raving mad), culturally it's at odds with us, and democratically it's utterly unfeasible.
The EU as a nation cannot work, because whatever would be good for X, Y and Z would be bad for A, B and C. Furthermore, it's not democratic but even if it became so there is no European sentiment, people (at least in Britain) would always feel British before European and we could (and would) have foreign socialist leftwing arseheads propelled to the presidency.
And how would this be resolved with the monarchy? Exchange the House of Windsor for a foreign bureaucrat? I think not.
The dream of a new Roman Empire is great, but it's only a dream. [For the record, Rome was all for low bureaucracy and high military capacity, the antithesis of the EU].
According to a little research I've done, Ralph Miliband served on the HMS Royal Arthur and the HMS Valorous during his time in the Royal Navy.
The HMS Royal Arthur was scrapped in 1921. I presume therefore that he served AT HMS Royal Arthur, a naval training centre near Skegness.
The HMS Valorous was mainly used for convoy defense in the North Sea, and did not take part in the Normandy landings.
I believe Ed was being rather economical with the truth...
Anyone who has had relatives serving in the Navy in WW2 will know that the records are very much not to be trusted. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WW2 and was sunk 3 times. I know he was on the Murmansk runs as I have photographs of him in Archangel and his diaries from the time. Yet according to the Navy he was never up there. In addition I know of at least 4 ships he served on including one he was sunk on and rescued from and again the Navy has him on different ships. Indeed they have him listed as serving on one ship at the time it was lost with all hands. He died in 1975.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
But Miliband doesn't actually say that his father was there at Normandy; he implies it. I found a biography which mentions his time in the navy, it claims he saw action in the Med but doesn't mention D-Day. If he had been there, why wasn't it mentioned?
That's why I said Miliband was being economical with the truth; he wants everyone to think his dad was there but knows he wasn't.
So you are saying that Miliband is lying about his Dad. That's a big call and highly libellous if you cannot prove it.
" I am a Eurosceptic. Like any sentient, non-evil human being, I revile the European Union as it is. I despise the corrupt, non-democratic way it is run. I hate the manner in which Britain has been forced into “ever closer union”, without our explicit consent: like a slow, stealthy, constitutional rape "
err, I'm not sure this will help sell the concept - Did you consult with Roger before penning?
When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.
I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
The only risk is that the stakes are too low for Financier to bother with.
Neil, presume you have not played poker with people who may get a bit upset when you are "called" and having a losing hand are unable to support your bets due to insufficient resources - cash. Best to stick with Tim's £50 at evens.
Actually I agree with your thought, but am not sure how far along the Nationalisation route EdM would go, having got one under his belt - so-to-speak. If something works once it is very tempting to follow the same path and McLuskey would be right behind him.
LOL, what bollocks, you sound more like Billy Liar every day. Presume you have a few down the back of the couch.
No, only losers would think of looking down the back of the couch, chair, settee or whatever. Is that what the SNP does when it is a bit short of funds?
Unlike you they live in the real world and actually have money in the bank
Well not really, not sure of the context of the quote but many jews were anti- british during the british occupation of Palestine. So to reason he may not like Britiain becasue he was jewish is a reasonable argument even if not necessarily true . It certainly isn't anti -semitic imo
It's a post under Liddle's piece on Miliband, pere et fils. I have no idea what Ralph Miliband's views on the state of Israel were, but if his 'hatred' of England stemmed from the Jewish uprisings 4 years later, he was showing amazing prescience.
AndrewSparrow @AndrewSparrow Maria Miller announces £10m anniversaries fund - theguardian.com/politics/2013/… - Will fund commemorations inc Agincourt and Beatrix Potter #cpc13
Well it is the 600th anniversary of The Battle of Agincourt in a couple of years time.
The most fitting tribute they could do to mark this anniversary is to rename London St Pancras train station as London Agincourt.
One for PB historians, did the rude v sign originate at the Battle of Agincourt?
It's associated with that in urban myth, but probably more general from the hundred years war.
The French were so upset with the welsh archers that they threatened to cut the fingers off any archer they captured. The rest, as they say, is history...
My understanding is that it is a complete urban myth. There is no record of the two fingered salute before the early 1900s and the first claim of it being associated with Agincourt apparently comes from the 1980s.
This is a good link looking at the background to the myth.
According to a little research I've done, Ralph Miliband served on the HMS Royal Arthur and the HMS Valorous during his time in the Royal Navy.
The HMS Royal Arthur was scrapped in 1921. I presume therefore that he served AT HMS Royal Arthur, a naval training centre near Skegness.
The HMS Valorous was mainly used for convoy defense in the North Sea, and did not take part in the Normandy landings.
I believe Ed was being rather economical with the truth...
Anyone who has had relatives serving in the Navy in WW2 will know that the records are very much not to be trusted. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WW2 and was sunk 3 times. I know he was on the Murmansk runs as I have photographs of him in Archangel and his diaries from the time. Yet according to the Navy he was never up there. In addition I know of at least 4 ships he served on including one he was sunk on and rescued from and again the Navy has him on different ships. Indeed they have him listed as serving on one ship at the time it was lost with all hands. He died in 1975.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
But Miliband doesn't actually say that his father was there at Normandy; he implies it. I found a biography which mentions his time in the navy, it claims he saw action in the Med but doesn't mention D-Day. If he had been there, why wasn't it mentioned?
That's why I said Miliband was being economical with the truth; he wants everyone to think his dad was there but knows he wasn't.
So you are saying that Miliband is lying about his Dad. That's a big call and highly libellous if you cannot prove it.
How about "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" or "swivel-eyed loons"?
Fair enough Mick but only Mili is wailing.
Cameron's received an infinity of brickbats for being a product of a background he couldn't have chosen and doesn't seem to complain.
I've even joined in myself by kicking him for not trusting people from ordinary backgrounds.
Big difference between coming from a background and surrounding yourself with people specifically because they are from the same background.
Never mind, he's got a breadmaker so can't be expected to know the price of bread. Bit odd that one, most people who make their own bread or brew there own beer talk about nothing other than how much a pint is in the pub or a loaf is in the shops.
chortle.
Ed and his brother CHOSE to go to Oxford, presumably they though they were going to meet children of bricklayers and roadsweepers ? Or are they just as attracted to the elite institutes they supposedly dislike ?
IIRC, there were claims that David only got in because of a strategic call placed by his Dad. No idea if that is true or not.
AndrewSparrow @AndrewSparrow Maria Miller announces £10m anniversaries fund - theguardian.com/politics/2013/… - Will fund commemorations inc Agincourt and Beatrix Potter #cpc13
Well it is the 600th anniversary of The Battle of Agincourt in a couple of years time.
The most fitting tribute they could do to mark this anniversary is to rename London St Pancras train station as London Agincourt.
One for PB historians, did the rude v sign originate at the Battle of Agincourt?
It's associated with that in urban myth, but probably more general from the hundred years war.
The French were so upset with the welsh archers that they threatened to cut the fingers off any archer they captured. The rest, as they say, is history...
I think the agincourt origin of the "V" sign is a myth. Any archers caught by the French during the 100 years war would have been executed as they would not be worth taking prisoner as little or no ransom value. I believe the origins of the "V" are from the old insult of the cuckold by holding two fingers up to suggest cuckold's horns. I think it is still an insult in some Mediterranean countries.
Years ago I went to a Jewish wedding in Scotland. At least one of the families had done very, very well out of the English legal system (and thence the taxpayer).
At one point there was a toast to the queen, but it was preceded by a toast to the president of the state of Israel.
That has always rankled with me, and I can;t even explain why.
Well not really, not sure of the context of the quote but many jews were anti- british during the british occupation of Palestine. So to reason he may not like Britiain becasue he was jewish is a reasonable argument even if not necessarily true . It certainly isn't anti -semitic imo
Mr. T, your argument is fatally flawed. There's no way in hell that the EU can ever be anything other than the way it is. Tinkering changes can happen, but it will always be dominated by countries of Roman Law, not Common Law, and (excepting us and the frogs) countries generally shy of large scale intervention. Economically, its utterly incompatible (anyone who thought marrying Germany, Greece, Spain and Italy in a currency union must've been stark raving mad), culturally it's at odds with us, and democratically it's utterly unfeasible.
The EU as a nation cannot work, because whatever would be good for X, Y and Z would be bad for A, B and C. Furthermore, it's not democratic but even if it became so there is no European sentiment, people (at least in Britain) would always feel British before European and we could (and would) have foreign socialist leftwing arseheads propelled to the presidency.
And how would this be resolved with the monarchy? Exchange the House of Windsor for a foreign bureaucrat? I think not.
The dream of a new Roman Empire is great, but it's only a dream. [For the record, Rome was all for low bureaucracy and high military capacity, the antithesis of the EU].
Its a shame the EU has turned out the way it has . I fully support membership of a group of countries where free trade and free movement of people and labour exist . I even think such a group would need a limited adminstration to police free movement of labour and goods and I would even accept a standardisation of the terms of trade in terms of metric measures, government support etc.
The trouble is the EU has gone way beyond that ,controlling huge amounts of money which are then funnlled out inefficiently and unfairly and possibly corruptly (when was the last time the accounts were signed off?). it also interferes too much in non trade law as to make every country the same . Surely the big advantage of having free movement of labour and people is that people can move to different systems and regimes if they so wish. Wahst the point of free movement when all countries have to be the same?
EdM lost his father at a young age - he was still a teenager, I think. That scars a person so I can sympathise with him over this and his desire to defend his dead father.
I hope this row over the Daily Mail's story will lead to fewer of these silly attacks on politicians via their parents or their parents' decisions. If Labour do start attacking Cameron on the basis of, I don't know, where his parents sent him to school and at what age or what his father did for a living, it'll be easier now for him to reply - as he did this morning - that judgment should be used.
Such attacks rarely say anything useful about the person being attacked but quite a lot about the person doing the attacking.
As for Ralph M, whether he was at Normandy or just in the N Atlantic convoy, is irrelevant. The battle of the Atlantic was one of the toughest for Britain - Churchill said that it was the only one which kept him up at night. When it came to it, Milliband pere did his bit and to attack him for what he said/thought when he was 17 is ridiculous.
How about "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" or "swivel-eyed loons"?
Fair enough Mick but only Mili is wailing.
Cameron's received an infinity of brickbats for being a product of a background he couldn't have chosen and doesn't seem to complain.
I've even joined in myself by kicking him for not trusting people from ordinary backgrounds.
Big difference between coming from a background and surrounding yourself with people specifically because they are from the same background.
Never mind, he's got a breadmaker so can't be expected to know the price of bread. Bit odd that one, most people who make their own bread or brew there own beer talk about nothing other than how much a pint is in the pub or a loaf is in the shops.
chortle.
Ed and his brother CHOSE to go to Oxford, presumably they though they were going to meet children of bricklayers and roadsweepers ? Or are they just as attracted to the elite institutes they supposedly dislike ?
IIRC, there were claims that David only got in because of a strategic call placed by his Dad. No idea if that is true or not.
Pretty sure David's A level results were lets say sub optimal for the course.
According to a little research I've done, Ralph Miliband served on the HMS Royal Arthur and the HMS Valorous during his time in the Royal Navy.
The HMS Royal Arthur was scrapped in 1921. I presume therefore that he served AT HMS Royal Arthur, a naval training centre near Skegness.
The HMS Valorous was mainly used for convoy defense in the North Sea, and did not take part in the Normandy landings.
I believe Ed was being rather economical with the truth...
Anyone who has had relatives serving in the Navy in WW2 will know that the records are very much not to be trusted. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WW2 and was sunk 3 times. I know he was on the Murmansk runs as I have photographs of him in Archangel and his diaries from the time. Yet according to the Navy he was never up there. In addition I know of at least 4 ships he served on including one he was sunk on and rescued from and again the Navy has him on different ships. Indeed they have him listed as serving on one ship at the time it was lost with all hands. He died in 1975.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
But Miliband doesn't actually say that his father was there at Normandy; he implies it. I found a biography which mentions his time in the navy, it claims he saw action in the Med but doesn't mention D-Day. If he had been there, why wasn't it mentioned?
That's why I said Miliband was being economical with the truth; he wants everyone to think his dad was there but knows he wasn't.
So you are saying that Miliband is lying about his Dad. That's a big call and highly libellous if you cannot prove it.
Why are you getting so worked up over it?
Hardly worked up. Just pointing out a potentially difficult legal issue for OGH.
Ian Kershaw, Anthony Beevor and Max Hastings should be required reading for anyone who doesn't understand why continental Europeans want a union of some sort, and will not let it go now they have it.
Years ago I went to a Jewish wedding in Scotland. At least one of the families had done very, very well out of the English legal system (and thence the taxpayer).
At one point there was a toast to the queen, but it was preceded by a toast to the president of the state of Israel.
That has always rankled with me, and I can;t even explain why.
I think the Queen shoudl be grateful for the toast whatever order it was made in! I can imagine how pompous I would have sounded proposing a toast to the Queen at my wedding!! Do many weddign shave toasts to the Queen ?
I think the problem with the 'arresting the terminal decline of European countries by all clubbing together' concept is that it is seems to be based on the idea that one addled old drunk lying in the gutter would be any less intoxicated and abhorrent if he were joined by 24 other addled old drunk all sharing the same bottle of Mad Dog 20:20
Comments
The Mail is doing what it does well. There are no shades of grey in tabloid-land, Ralph's a good 'un or a bad 'un. And for some in politics, it's the same. Cammo will always be a posh fop unless, of course, he converts to socialism. In which case, he could join the Labour front bench and immediately become a doughty fighter for justice.
Best to judge people on what they become rather than what they once were. Damian McBride is now a nice guy. I was very left-wing at 17 ...... I got better though.
'Atkins is out and artisan breads are in, and increasingly we’re making our own. That’s according to John Lewis, which has seen a 70 per cent increase in sales of bread-makers over the last year with a 33 per cent spike in purchases following the first episode of this year’s Great British Bake Off.'
http://www.independent.co.uk/property/interiors/breadmaking-is-back-but-which-breadmaker-to-go-for-8117436.html
What bad could be said about Ed M that they wouldn't try and justify as fair game?
How long has it been a crime for a Labour leader to be left wing anyway?
How would they react to lefties decrying a Conservative leader for being right wing?
I tried being a bit too clever with it and ended up with some strange bricks but they're great and simple. I also have an egg boiler which is magical!
http://www.water-technology.net/projects/-ras-al-khair-desalination-plant/
I also have a rice cooker that I got as an Christmas gift and never used.
Ergo, it is good for Ed.
But I am seeing Fleetwood Mac tonight.
Does this makes me an out of touch Tory?
Now he's whining like a girl because the Mail prints up a few quotes from his dad ?
This is Mail`s style and noone took any notice of that article till Miliband kicked up a fuss.
Losing the F1 demographic would be a disaster.
Classic NY Daily News front page today: "House of Turds"... Not quite as great as Gingrich the crybaby back in '95
pic.twitter.com/RkVf947ktD
Not sir Oswald?
The_greyhound
• 2 minutes ago
The ranting hysteria on the Guardian website this morning is a joy to behold. The Guardian, which shifts fewer copies than the Daily Record, and its idle unproductive public sector readers, hate the free press, and especially the Daily Mail which outsells the Graun 9:1. And they can't forgive that the Daily Mail website leads the pack.
So when the Daily Mail offers us a gentle reminder of just who some of the left really are, much squealing, in the manner of stuck pigs, ensues. The Mail could usefully follow up with a hatchet job on another sacred cow of the left, the odious, Stalinist, genocide-apologist, Hobsbawm. http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/rod-liddle/2013/10/ralph-miliband-hatred-of-britain-sprung-from-his-marxist-beliefs/
And they're off..Scottish Power drops v heavy hint that will scrap £bns investment cos of Miliband energy bill freeze
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/utilities/article3883443.ece
"The written warning from Keith Anderson, the chief corporate officer of ScottishPower, to the Labour leader is the industry’s most explicit threat yet over the consequences of the Opposition’s controversial policy, announced last week.
“To the extent such a freeze would cause investors to doubt that they will receive an adequate return or to fear future similar interventions, those doubts and fears would be reflected in the appetite to invest,” he wrote.
Mr Anderson spelled out the Spanish-owned company’s plans to invest up to £15 billion over the next decade and to create up to 4,500 jobs. He hinted that this money would go elsewhere if Labour won the election in 2015 and went ahead with its plan to freeze energy bills for consumers and businesses for 20 months: “As an international energy company, we carefully analyse all of the major markets in the world. Maintaining principles of sound regulation and avoiding regulatory uncertainty are critical to securing this global investment in the UK. This is investment that could be made in many different countries but the UK market has been chosen as it is seen as working relatively well.”
I'll never forget the dark secret he gave The Black Shorts leader, Roderick Spode.
It's not a pleasant article, nor is it particularly robust (who hasn't written or done something as a teenager that they later regret or at least wouldn't do now?). That said, I'm not sure Miliband is on to a winner dragging it out: if you wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it.
I like the YouGov poll that suggested only 19% though Labour should follow the lead of new labour and 45% didn't. What will the Hodges tendency say now?
A palmer kneads it.
'Ralph Miliband’s hatred of Britain sprung from his Marxist beliefs' and/or perhaps due to his allegiance to a certain semitic tribe?
Relatedly, it seems like Labour's media operation is working out OK without Damian McBride.
And don't even get my started on his time as naval liaison on mechant ships. In that case there is no record of the ships he sailed on, only of the port he sailed from and was therefore paid from.
So there is every chance that Miliband is absolutely correct. I would certainly trust his father's personal recollections over the MoD records.
This could be another brown letters to the relatives of dead soldiers moment,where it totally backfired on the sun newspaper and hurt the tories,just go look at the comments at the mail on ed milibands father,the criticism of the mail is winning.
Don't suppose that would go down well with the women's vote.
Sorry, but we won't be tweeting/responding to replies during the government shutdown. Be back as soon as possible. notice.USA.gov
The French were so upset with the welsh archers that they threatened to cut the fingers off any archer they captured. The rest, as they say, is history...
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You don't think that's anti semitic?
That's why I said Miliband was being economical with the truth; he wants everyone to think his dad was there but knows he wasn't.
The EU as a nation cannot work, because whatever would be good for X, Y and Z would be bad for A, B and C. Furthermore, it's not democratic but even if it became so there is no European sentiment, people (at least in Britain) would always feel British before European and we could (and would) have foreign socialist leftwing arseheads propelled to the presidency.
And how would this be resolved with the monarchy? Exchange the House of Windsor for a foreign bureaucrat? I think not.
The dream of a new Roman Empire is great, but it's only a dream. [For the record, Rome was all for low bureaucracy and high military capacity, the antithesis of the EU].
err, I'm not sure this will help sell the concept - Did you consult with Roger before penning?
Meanwhile, twitter having fun with blood-curdling tales of their fathers:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/01/mydadhatedbritain-twitter_n_4021958.html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ir=UK
This is a good link looking at the background to the myth.
http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/two-fingers-up-to-english-history/
I think the agincourt origin of the "V" sign is a myth. Any archers caught by the French during the 100 years war would have been executed as they would not be worth taking prisoner as little or no ransom value. I believe the origins of the "V" are from the old insult of the cuckold by holding two fingers up to suggest cuckold's horns. I think it is still an insult in some Mediterranean countries.
Years ago I went to a Jewish wedding in Scotland. At least one of the families had done very, very well out of the English legal system (and thence the taxpayer).
At one point there was a toast to the queen, but it was preceded by a toast to the president of the state of Israel.
That has always rankled with me, and I can;t even explain why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
The trouble is the EU has gone way beyond that ,controlling huge amounts of money which are then funnlled out inefficiently and unfairly and possibly corruptly (when was the last time the accounts were signed off?). it also interferes too much in non trade law as to make every country the same . Surely the big advantage of having free movement of labour and people is that people can move to different systems and regimes if they so wish. Wahst the point of free movement when all countries have to be the same?
Don't blame them. Its their story, why give a competitor a break??
I hope this row over the Daily Mail's story will lead to fewer of these silly attacks on politicians via their parents or their parents' decisions. If Labour do start attacking Cameron on the basis of, I don't know, where his parents sent him to school and at what age or what his father did for a living, it'll be easier now for him to reply - as he did this morning - that judgment should be used.
Such attacks rarely say anything useful about the person being attacked but quite a lot about the person doing the attacking.
As for Ralph M, whether he was at Normandy or just in the N Atlantic convoy, is irrelevant. The battle of the Atlantic was one of the toughest for Britain - Churchill said that it was the only one which kept him up at night. When it came to it, Milliband pere did his bit and to attack him for what he said/thought when he was 17 is ridiculous.