I would rather shoot myself in the fucking face than attend 5 minutes of any of that.
Whenever people complain about the money that City lawyers get paid, they should remember that we have to annually attend partners' conferences for three days with agendas that make that one look full of pizzazz.
Mind you, I initially misread the afternoon session as The Grand Parkour and now I have visions of the Cabinet showing off their wall runs and muscle ups along Chequers balustrades.
LOL.
An old colleague of mine told me of the time in the early 1980s he flew out with a team to somewhere in Europe for a several-day meeting on the naming of a variable in a telecoms system...
And an acquaintance of mine recently had to go up to Manchester for a multi-day meeting on the format of documents needed on a large archaeological study.
Sometimes I'm in favour of dictators ...
My punishment beating was to attend several meetings of the Common Criteria committee on Infosec. There's nothing like large, bureaucratic, multinational conclaves of civil servants for siphoning away one's will to live.
Mrs J once had to spend a few days locked in the back of a white van with some Korean engineers as it drove around Spain ...
(They were testing a receiver she had helped design, but she was never quite sure why the doors needed to be locked...)
I hope they hadn't brought their own supply of kimchee.
TMay tying us all in knots to give us BINO because WTO crash out would be a disaster. A 'People's Vote' would get her off the hook. It would get all of us off the hook. BINO is worse than staying.
I note that the definition of "philistine" applies to an indifference or hostility to the arts and culture, whatever the latter may mean. If there is an obverse word to describe an indifference to and ignorance of technical and scientific knowledge then that I think would describe Gove.
I don’t see that Gove is any stupider about science than the succession of PPE graduates who were ministers for science & climate change (Miliband, Huhne, etc)
Gove was certainly passionate about teaching computer programming in schools:
Dave has been fantastically loyal to Mrs May even though she has treated him very badly.
Remember when she lost Dave's majority and a few Tory MPs had qualms about doing a deal with the DUP, Dave sent a tweet backing Mrs May, and also made a few phone calls to help her out.
With the EU negotiating team behaving as they are can anyone here suggest what May should do that will be acceptable to the public who voted to leave, to the House of Commons and to the EU?
Walk away and go to No Deal planning.
That doesn't mean No Deal will happen. The EU are only behaving as they are as they are convinced the UK isn't willing to countenance No Deal. They have more than 40 billion reasons to avoid No Deal themselves but think they don't need to change. If we walk away they might.
Theresa wouldn't make a very good poker player would she?
Not at all.
The way the negotiations are going is as if May in poker has declared both that she won't fold and walk away so will call any bet ... and that she has 7 2 off as her cards. So the EU keep betting larger amounts and May is calling them all as she won't fold and walk away from this hand. Now they're pushing All In and May still wants to call. No bet is better than a bad bet but May won't countenance it.
23 Cabinet ministers? I wish they'd do something about the limit so we do not have to guess which fringe ministers who attend cabinet count for betting purposes -- Chief Whip, Chief Secretary to the Treasury and so on.
I note that the definition of "philistine" applies to an indifference or hostility to the arts and culture, whatever the latter may mean. If there is an obverse word to describe an indifference to and ignorance of technical and scientific knowledge then that I think would describe Gove.
I don’t see that Gove is any stupider about science than the succession of PPE graduates who were ministers for science & climate change (Miliband, Huhne, etc)
Gove was certainly passionate about teaching computer programming in schools:
Yes, he's typical of our politicians. Yet we punch above our weight scientifically. Maybe C. P. Snow got it right.
It's an odd way of putting it. WTO = disaster BINO = better than WTO but still not great. Like staying but with no say.
So that leaves ,,, staying in. But how can that be done politically? Via another referendum!
It leaves EEA (if that is possible - see my posts passim to see why I am sceptical).
The reasoning would go - our bespoke deal is too messy, still not clear the details, not sure it's wholly achieveable and the EU doesn't like it and it would take too long and we don't want to crash out.
But wait! There is an off the shelf deal which will be a compromise from our third way (which itself is a compromise from the cake strategy) and we should do that.
By that time it will only be seen as "one" compromise, much as today's third way is seen as one compromise.
Oh but of course that leaves immigration. But then we point to the decline in net immigration from the EU over the past 2-3 years and reassure everyone that it is unlikely to rise, or we can implement emergency controls, which I think would be justified in the short run, despite the restrictions on its use, because we would be in a traumatic, transformative state.
I've gone in for the max allowed on "No", which is £15.
Most of my betting today will be on Uruguay and Brazil.
I think the odds on those two matches are about right, am on England and Croatia myself. I note Cavani is out, so France are probably more obvious to qualify than Brazil today.
"Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."
This is a keeper.
Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.
It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
I think that fore the stage one deal was done . If there is a lack of ambiguity after today it is very hard to imagine the Cabinet being the same as it is this morning.
100% right.
Tough job and all that, but the deliberate choice to not get agreement among less than 2 dozen cabinet members before now, just pushing it back and back, is not defendable. The Tories ain't getting my vote next time. They had best hope people who live in a seat that matters do not react the same way.
We’ll have a new leader by then. Won’t you listen to what they have to say?
A party is more than a single leader. Indeed, senior figures are lesser leaders, and the others direct and sway those leaders. May has done the best she could I think given the factions she has tried to keep on board, but when she's gone those factions remain and will ensure the incompetence continues as the new leader will face the same problems. Bluntly, they don't deserve my vote. Fortunately for them, they don't need mine in a safe seat.
Good for you. Enjoy PM Corbyn.
Perhaps you missed that I live in a safe seat. My vote won't help or prevent Corbyn becoming PM. I voted tory in 2017 for the first time largely because of corbyn,not because my vote wold stop him, but since I disliked him so much I felt I needed to own the next Gov as it were - it would have been very easy to vote LD again and not bear responsibility for the current incompetence, but I figured I needed to take that hit if it came.
But that doesn't change that my MP will be a tory from now until the end of time no matter what I do.
The Tories won a majority in 2015 then when you did not vote Tory and you do not live in a marginal seat so to be brutally honest I think they can survive your voting LD again
Which I pointed out, thank you. I outright stated they had best hope people who live in a seat that matters dont think as I am, not that my vote would make a difference.
So you're not exactly breaking the news to me here. I don't expect the tories to be upset, since it won't affect them. But they can't shame me with corbyn either, as royal blue lamely attempred, as I cannot help or prevent him becoming pm.
Normally with things like this, most of the agenda is agreed beforehand. Apparently this is not the case. The govt is briefing about Taxi firms. Either this is expectation management or chaos.
And why is this happening now, in 2018 and not in 2016?
Really, really weird. But we all go along with it as this is a good way of deciding things.
With the EU negotiating team behaving as they are can anyone here suggest what May should do that will be acceptable to the public who voted to leave, to the House of Commons and to the EU?
There is no solution that satisfies those three conditions. I think that's been readily apparent for about a year.
With the EU negotiating team behaving as they are can anyone here suggest what May should do that will be acceptable to the public who voted to leave, to the House of Commons and to the EU?
There is no solution that satisfies those three conditions. I think that's been readily apparent for about a year.
It's all doable. Save for immigration. We have shown that we are a nation that doesn't like foreigners.
The only hope is that part of any solution would use the fact that EU migration has fallen, to somehow sweep it under the carpet/super-fudge it.
If this all ends with Parliament voting through leaving to the EEA/EFTA it would be a solid result in the end. It's definitely preferable to whatever frankenbrexit Theresa has come up with.
If this all ends with Parliament voting through leaving to the EEA/EFTA it would be a solid result in the end. It's definitely preferable to whatever frankenbrexit Theresa has come up with.
As I posted upthread it is the only and logical outcome. We have already compromised to get to the third way. For all kinds of reasons that will prove impossible, so it is only a small compromise further to get to EEA/EFTA.
This is the make or break day for TM. Not a minute too late. Productivity numbers today are dire. The business world is sitting on its hands now and waiting to see what will happen.
"Well lets get on to the no deal planning sessions as that is the vitally important one."
Q1. When we crash the economy, how do we avoid the pitchforks and piano wire?
The economy will only crash with a total no deal scenario i.e no air travel agreement, no land transport agreement, etc. This is also mutually assured destruction. The no deal planning session should deal with getting those bilaterals in place. People who say "No deal will crash the economy" are basically saying "We believe the EU is so stupid that they will cut their head off to spite their face." Sensible people believe this to have a less than 1% chance of happening.
I think a majority of the voters are fully in favour of tariff-free trade. It's the extras that come with it.
For example ... standardisation makes sense but uncontrolled FoM is an add-on. If goods move freely, so must labour? Why? Surely that 's a separate issue, and a political one.
The argument is that doing so - having a single market without FoM - tilts the balance much too far in favour of capital, as companies would be able to decamp to the EU's lower wage economies and reduce workers' power by stunting competition for their labour. We are pretty much the only country which views 'Freedom of Movement' in terms of immigration and a negative - perhaps because we don't have easily crossed land borders and shared border communities (excepting NI which was of course largely ignored by Brexiteers). Where populations are beginning to get antsy about immigration, the cause tends to be immigration from outside the EU (the refugee crisis) and worries governments were caught out and unresponsive to levels of immigration (and type) they disagree with - and that due to the interlinked nature of the EU there's a potential for contagion.
If this all ends with Parliament voting through leaving to the EEA/EFTA it would be a solid result in the end. It's definitely preferable to whatever frankenbrexit Theresa has come up with.
As I posted upthread it is the only and logical outcome. We have already compromised to get to the third way. For all kinds of reasons that will prove impossible, so it is only a small compromise further to get to EEA/EFTA.
I think parliament doing it against the wishes of the leadership would also get the Tories off the hook for not restricting free movement and keep the party in the running g for 2022.
This is the make or break day for TM. Not a minute too late. Productivity numbers today are dire. The business world is sitting on its hands now and waiting to see what will happen.
That depends on whether Barnier immediately rubbishes it - or has been told to say 'look forward to discussions, needs work'.
If the latter the crunch is delayed as the EU's 'border in the Irish sea' is un-sellable in Westminster and the UK's 'Freedom of movement cherry picking' is unsellable in the EU - in which case the whole thing will blow up in October....
"Well lets get on to the no deal planning sessions as that is the vitally important one."
Q1. When we crash the economy, how do we avoid the pitchforks and piano wire?
The economy will only crash with a total no deal scenario i.e no air travel agreement, no land transport agreement, etc. This is also mutually assured destruction. The no deal planning session should deal with getting those bilaterals in place. People who say "No deal will crash the economy" are basically saying "We believe the EU is so stupid that they will cut their head off to spite their face." Sensible people believe this to have a less than 1% chance of happening.
I think a majority of the voters are fully in favour of tariff-free trade. It's the extras that come with it.
For example ... standardisation makes sense but uncontrolled FoM is an add-on. If goods move freely, so must labour? Why? Surely that 's a separate issue, and a political one.
The argument is that doing so - having a single market without FoM - tilts the balance much too far in favour of capital, as companies would be able to decamp to the EU's lower wage economies and reduce workers' power by stunting competition for their labour. We are pretty much the only country which views 'Freedom of Movement' in terms of immigration and a negative - perhaps because we don't have easily crossed land borders and shared border communities (excepting NI which was of course largely ignored by Brexiteers). Where populations are beginning to get antsy about immigration, the cause tends to be immigration from outside the EU (the refugee crisis) and worries governments were caught out and unresponsive to levels of immigration (and type) they disagree with - and that due to the interlinked nature of the EU there's a potential for contagion.
The UK is 12% of the EU's population yet The UK has had 40% of the intra-EU population movement. I would argue that any other country that had this much would get a bit antsy about it. For example the French and Germans at the moment are getting very anti EU posted workers because they are undercutting local wages. This has been happening for the last 10 years here but we had to lump it.
This is the make or break day for TM. Not a minute too late. Productivity numbers today are dire. The business world is sitting on its hands now and waiting to see what will happen.
That depends on whether Barnier immediately rubbishes it - or has been told to say 'look forward to discussions, needs work'.
If the latter the crunch is delayed as the EU's 'border in the Irish sea' is un-sellable in Westminster and the UK's 'Freedom of movement cherry picking' is unsellable in the EU - in which case the whole thing will blow up in October....
The most likely scenario. May can't back down much further and survive, the EU thinks it doesn't need to as we will capitulate further. So they will want to give us more time to agree to capitulate.
Accidental no deal - the most likely scenario given the lack of progress in 2018.
If I were a hard-line Brexiteers, I would wait until 30 March 2019. May will have no reason left to stay, and I would take over the perpetual flame of Brexit to move us further out than her.
It is the hard-line Remainers that need action now.
This is the make or break day for TM. Not a minute too late. Productivity numbers today are dire. The business world is sitting on its hands now and waiting to see what will happen.
That depends on whether Barnier immediately rubbishes it - or has been told to say 'look forward to discussions, needs work'.
If the latter the crunch is delayed as the EU's 'border in the Irish sea' is un-sellable in Westminster and the UK's 'Freedom of movement cherry picking' is unsellable in the EU - in which case the whole thing will blow up in October....
Accidental no deal - the most likely scenario given the lack of progress in 2018.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the Cabinet discusses 'no deal' planning.....
Feeling lucky, punk? That’s the message that Theresa May will deliver to her fractious ministers today at Chequers as the cabinet gathers to hammer out its preferred approach on customs. A senior ally of the PM’s tells Politico's Jack Blanchard that anyone who decides to quit will be given the number of the local cab firm and left to make the journey back from Buckinghamshire alone.
Is the PM right to think she has the strength to face down her detractors? The problem that the Brexiteers have is that they have the numbers to wound May but not to kill her.
Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
So it's going to be one of those days, is it.
[I hate my brain. I just had a mental image of Theresa May twirling as her skirt was ripped off in a Bakeresque fashion. Now you have the image too. Sorry.]
[I hate my brain. I just had a mental image of Theresa May twirling as her skirt was ripped off in a Bakeresque fashion. Now you have the image too. Sorry.]
This is the make or break day for TM. Not a minute too late. Productivity numbers today are dire. The business world is sitting on its hands now and waiting to see what will happen.
When was the last time British productivity figures weren't dire?
I would rather shoot myself in the fucking face than attend 5 minutes of any of that.
Whenever people complain about the money that City lawyers get paid, they should remember that we have to annually attend partners' conferences for three days with agendas that make that one look full of pizzazz.
Mind you, I initially misread the afternoon session as The Grand Parkour and now I have visions of the Cabinet showing off their wall runs and muscle ups along Chequers balustrades.
Jeez Alastair, my heart bleeds for you!
Frequent three-day jollies with very boring agendas punctuated by food and drinks, and all for just a measely six figure salary? I'm sure you'd much rather get a job in a call centre.
No amount of money can make that time go any quicker, believe you me. And you clearly have never had to eat conference 'food' or drink the 'wine'. I make a beeline for the nearest decent restaurant if I can.
Been there, done that. You're describing a 1st world problem, in fact a 'top 10% of 1st world' problem.
Trust me, there are millions out there who would their dreary, drudge of a just-scraping-by life for yours (or Alastair's, or mine).
Really, calm down and stop this. It's absurd, look at the actual numbers.
Colin Ball took victory in both the Lichfield City Council and Lichfield District Council votes in the Curborough ward.
The result sees Labour secure a seat held by the Conservatives until the death of Cllr Jeanette Allsopp earlier this year.
Last time the ward was contested – in 2015 – the Tories won both seats with 790 and 795 votes; well clear of the 637 achieved by the nearest Labour candidate.
But the collapse of the Friarsgate development has heaped pressure on the controlling Conservative group locally and they look to have paid the price at the polls.
Lichfield District Council result (turnout 15.6%):
Colin Ball (Labour) – 309 Lee Cadwallader-Allan (Lib Dem) – 34 Jayne Marks (Cons) – 169 Lichfield City Council result (turnout 15.5%):
Colin Ball (Lab) – 323 Paul Jones (Cons) – 160 Richard Rathbone (Lib Dem) – 26
15.6% turnout. Labour's vote actually halved since the last time it was contested.
Do you think Michael Fabricant, with over 60% vote share in the constituency, is at all worried by this?
Of the 52% who voted for Brexit, about 4/5ths [ 40% of total ] could not give a shit if we became a third world country because they will have got their "independence".
The biggest errors have been a. Bothering to negotiate with the EU at all and b. Ramping things up about red lines so that a humiliation was inevitable.
Of the 52% who voted for Brexit, about 4/5ths [ 40% of total ] could not give a shit if we became a third world country because they will have got their "independence".
On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":
Support: 51% Oppose: 13%
"I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":
Agree: 66% Disagree: 7%
What about the two aldermanic by-elections in the city of London yesterday? Independents won, as no politically designated candidates where standing. One of the wards is named Cheap I believe (probably the only thing which is in the City of London!)
“We would not understand if the UK falls out of the Galileo project.
“Beyond all the bickering and tactics and negotiation, both sides have a strong interest for further close cooperation with the UK on security and defence matters.
“There are only two serious military forces in the EU today and one is the UK. Guess who is the other; it’s not Germany.”
“We would not understand if the UK falls out of the Galileo project.
“Beyond all the bickering and tactics and negotiation, both sides have a strong interest for further close cooperation with the UK on security and defence matters.
“There are only two serious military forces in the EU today and one is the UK. Guess who is the other; it’s not Germany.”
In any case I do not want the UK to be in the top 5 militarily in the EU. We will save a lot of money.
Comments
A 'People's Vote' would get her off the hook. It would get all of us off the hook.
BINO is worse than staying.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-and-david-cameron-meet-ahead-of-theresa-mays-brexit-showdown-11427859
Gove was certainly passionate about teaching computer programming in schools:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/11/michael-gove-boring-it-lessons
which was very sensible. I don’t think much changed, but that was probably not Gove’s fault.
Dave has been fantastically loyal to Mrs May even though she has treated him very badly.
Remember when she lost Dave's majority and a few Tory MPs had qualms about doing a deal with the DUP, Dave sent a tweet backing Mrs May, and also made a few phone calls to help her out.
WTO = disaster
BINO = better than WTO but still not great. Like staying but with no say.
So that leaves ,,, staying in. But how can that be done politically? Via another referendum!
Maybe (and unlike Osborne) he's just been biding his time?
The way the negotiations are going is as if May in poker has declared both that she won't fold and walk away so will call any bet ... and that she has 7 2 off as her cards. So the EU keep betting larger amounts and May is calling them all as she won't fold and walk away from this hand. Now they're pushing All In and May still wants to call. No bet is better than a bad bet but May won't countenance it.
Grieve attacks Barnier 'cakeism'.....
The reasoning would go - our bespoke deal is too messy, still not clear the details, not sure it's wholly achieveable and the EU doesn't like it and it would take too long and we don't want to crash out.
But wait! There is an off the shelf deal which will be a compromise from our third way (which itself is a compromise from the cake strategy) and we should do that.
By that time it will only be seen as "one" compromise, much as today's third way is seen as one compromise.
Oh but of course that leaves immigration. But then we point to the decline in net immigration from the EU over the past 2-3 years and reassure everyone that it is unlikely to rise, or we can implement emergency controls, which I think would be justified in the short run, despite the restrictions on its use, because we would be in a traumatic, transformative state.
So you're not exactly breaking the news to me here. I don't expect the tories to be upset, since it won't affect them. But they can't shame me with corbyn either, as royal blue lamely attempred, as I cannot help or prevent him becoming pm.
The Long Walk To Freedom.
Normally with things like this, most of the agenda is agreed beforehand. Apparently this is not the case. The govt is briefing about Taxi firms. Either this is expectation management or chaos.
And why is this happening now, in 2018 and not in 2016?
Really, really weird. But we all go along with it as this is a good way of deciding things.
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1015168357295968256
CON: 33.0% (-8.4)
LDEM: 6.6% (+6.6)
No UKIP (-25.4) as prev.
Labour GAIN from Conservative.
Ohhhh Jereeemmmy Cooorrrbbbbyyyyynnnn
YG are the new ICM Kaboooomers presumanly
The only hope is that part of any solution would use the fact that EU migration has fallen, to somehow sweep it under the carpet/super-fudge it.
@britainelects
11h11 hours ago
More
Curborough (Lichfield) result:
And as it happens Dr North is in agreement also.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/06/brexit-tories-jeremy-corbyn
If the latter the crunch is delayed as the EU's 'border in the Irish sea' is un-sellable in Westminster and the UK's 'Freedom of movement cherry picking' is unsellable in the EU - in which case the whole thing will blow up in October....
Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result:
LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0)
LAB: 24.6% (+11.6)
CON: 21.3% (-6.8)
GRN: 13.0% (-9.5)
LDem GAIN from Con.
No UKIP (-5.3) as prev.
On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":
Support: 51%
Oppose: 13%
"I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":
Agree: 66%
Disagree: 7%
As I observed last night, if the reaction to the proposed wording was indeed horror as reported, no redrafting saves that.
Appropriate if May retreats from her red lines under pressure from the EU negotoators, business and the civil service.
Accidental no deal - the most likely scenario given the lack of progress in 2018.
And the fact that change is coming
Best to keep powder dry and organise a challenge to May as Conservative leader - then resign en bloc.
https://twitter.com/VanessaLamsvelt/status/1014957849716412416
Lazy political slogans don't work in real life. And yes that applies on the opposite direction.
It is the hard-line Remainers that need action now.
Steve Baker next PM @ 125/1 with Shadsy.
https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/uk/uk-politics/next-prime-minister/224910701/
Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result: LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0) LAB: 24.6% (+11.6) CON: 21.3% (-6.8) GRN: 13.0% (-9.5) LDem GAIN from Con
Shifnal South & Cosford (Shropshire) result: CON: 38.3% (-18.9) IND (Mitchell): 22.2% (-9.3) IND (Carey): 21.9% (+21.9) LDEM: 17.7% (+6.3) Conservative HOLD.
Is the PM right to think she has the strength to face down her detractors? The problem that the Brexiteers have is that they have the numbers to wound May but not to kill her.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/cabinet-away-day-brexit-conservative-chequers-theresa-may-eu
Exit meeting - leak its a crap deal. Wait for the EU to reject it. Say I told you so..
LAB must not be blamed for derailing it.
BTW the EU has been on the side of the few getting richer at the expense of the poor.
We had this big election in May where approx 1/3 of the country was asked how they vote locally... what resulted was by no means a hammering for May
[I hate my brain. I just had a mental image of Theresa May twirling as her skirt was ripped off in a Bakeresque fashion. Now you have the image too. Sorry.]
Who is swinging the banhammer today?
Trust me, there are millions out there who would their dreary, drudge of a just-scraping-by life for yours (or Alastair's, or mine).
Colin Ball took victory in both the Lichfield City Council and Lichfield District Council votes in the Curborough ward.
The result sees Labour secure a seat held by the Conservatives until the death of Cllr Jeanette Allsopp earlier this year.
Last time the ward was contested – in 2015 – the Tories won both seats with 790 and 795 votes; well clear of the 637 achieved by the nearest Labour candidate.
But the collapse of the Friarsgate development has heaped pressure on the controlling Conservative group locally and they look to have paid the price at the polls.
Lichfield District Council result (turnout 15.6%):
Colin Ball (Labour) – 309
Lee Cadwallader-Allan (Lib Dem) – 34
Jayne Marks (Cons) – 169
Lichfield City Council result (turnout 15.5%):
Colin Ball (Lab) – 323
Paul Jones (Cons) – 160
Richard Rathbone (Lib Dem) – 26
15.6% turnout. Labour's vote actually halved since the last time it was contested.
Do you think Michael Fabricant, with over 60% vote share in the constituency, is at all worried by this?
Of the 52% who voted for Brexit, about 4/5ths [ 40% of total ] could not give a shit if we became a third world country because they will have got their "independence".
“Beyond all the bickering and tactics and negotiation, both sides have a strong interest for further close cooperation with the UK on security and defence matters.
“There are only two serious military forces in the EU today and one is the UK. Guess who is the other; it’s not Germany.”
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1015186317695741953