Having been in the South of france for the last several weeks it kept occuring to me that if only the 17 million Brexiteers had seen at first hand the practical advantages of being able to move to or through a smorgasbord of cultures and languages without restriction the vote would almost certainly have been different.
Europe is a very special continent. The most cultured and varied in the world. To be an integral part of it is a great privilege and anything that draws us closer and gives us the simplest access the better. Remain should have set its sigts on the common currency and shengen and not allowed the the Little Englanders to frame the debate around a fear of foreigners.
Its a shame you Little Europeans can't see the big wide wonderful world outside of your little 7% of the world's population. And I am sure Asia might have quite a lot to say about your culture and variety. But of course being a parochial Little European all those yellow and brown people look the same to you.
This criticism of Roger is pathetic. It’s totally disingenuous to accuse those who love European culture of racism.
Not at all. It is the exceptionalism that Roger regularly displays that is offensive. The idea that there is such a thing as a 'European' culture and that it is somehow superior to those of the other 93% of the world's population is obnoxious. I am not surprised you rush to his defence.
Of course there is a “European” culture.
I’m not surprised to see you start with a faulty premise and end up with a deranged and obnoxious conclusion, however.
Really. Care to define it? Something that encompasses all the countries of Europe or even all the countries of the EU? We don't even all share the same language roots. What there are are lots of different cultures with some mingling around the edges. But the idea there is a shared 'European' culture is as dumb as the idea there is a shared 'Asian' culture or a shared 'African' culture.
Of course you Little Europeans with your 7% of the world's population like to think you are something special but given most of you have never even travelled outside of Europe I am not surprised you have these delusions.
Of course there's a European culture you peasant everyone from and before Shakespeare and a hundred others.
So no actual answer then. Par for the course from you.
I’m watching the IPL final. There’s a shared cultural event that’s very non European. About as comprehensible to your average Continental as a tribal New Guinean rain dance.! Still to be fair so was the Champion’s League final a common event last night and that’s very European. Some bloke from Cardiff even played quite well too.
As ever these things are a mix. I’m sure the American predeliction for starting dinner about the time the Spanish are finishing lunch baffles them both and us, for instance.
There is a fundamental problem with the Brexit debate. It is not the Leavers who are stopping 'soft Brexit'. It is the EU.
The Remainers have been whining about 'soft Brexit' like it means something, but none of them can define in any way what it is, other than the subset who openly support EEA membership. Of course, most Remainers can't support EEA because the requirement for FOM means that it is obviously contrary to the referendum result and they don't like being called on that.
So they pretend that there is another 'soft Brexit' option. But the EU is constantly saying that this is not true.
The EU are obsessed with cherry picking. They define that as not having all the 'benefits' of membership without the 'obligations'.
The EU are the ones saying that they DON'T WANT the whole UK to stay ubt it. They just duck the issue (or, like HYUFD, just aim for a deal which pretends to halt FOM but in fact leaves it in place).
Brexit was always a binary choice. It is not the Leavers that are saying so - ask your beloved EU.
That's not right. What Barnier is saying is effectively that there's no soft Brexit that's *consistent with TMay's current red lines*. This has been obvious since before she drew them. See his graphic here:
Barnier has always said we can have a Canada style FTA but no more if we want to end FOM, that remains consistent with the Phase 1 agreement in December with the EU yes
So, does that mean that you are agreeing with me? There is no 'soft Brexit' on offer that does not leave FOM in place? In that case, why are we even talking about 'soft Brexit'?
I have never said it will be 'soft Brexit' ie staying fully in the single market but nor do I think it will be ultra hard WTO terms Brexit either, most likely it will be a FTA similar to what Canada has with the EU
Er - A Canada style FTA IS a Hard Brexit (and is not compatible with CU membership). It is also a path that May is desperately trying to avoid. What she and Olly Robbins want is 'soft Brexit' where we maintain almost full alignment with EU regulations in return for 'frictionless' trade. This is a fantasy, as the EU keep telling her.
For most voters a Canada style FTA is NOT hard Brexit, that would only be WTO terms
So Shakespeare is an example of European culture? At the time did many outside England really know of his works? We were too busy fighting the French and Spanish at the time? Were his works not spread via the new world, the empire and Anglosphere afterwards?
English culture maybe British but not a shared European culture - even though he wrote a few plays set in Italy.
As for religion creating a common culture on that logic the Republic of Ireland has more in common culturally with the Philippines (a Catholic country due to Spanish influence) or Honduras than it does with the UK. Really?
Do the Welsh figure in your world view, or are they as JS Mill said, an "inferior and more backward portion of the human race" who had the good fortune to be absorbed into the British nation?
This illusory concept of some shared European culture is a myth of elites and the Tuscany second home owning class. Europe is a continent of multiple cultures and languages and traditions - not some amorphous single culture or set of values.
The majority of Brits want to live and work in the own country where their multi generational families and friends are. Yes they enjoy the odd two week break to Spain or Greece or wherever but Citizens of Nicaragua also have 3 months visa free travel rights to the EU for tourism so that won't end.
In the end if you are skilled enough or have the right qualifications and are minded so you can move anywhere.
As for values and culture I believe sharing a common language, history and traditions are are pre requisite. We have that with Ireland, Canada, NZ, Australia, Malta and yes even nations where English is a common language like Singapore or Jamaica or India.
I actually feel more at home in Singapore than many parts of Europe - because of that. You can even go to M&S and Virgin active - my UK gym chain - and everyone pretty much can converse in English. Because if you can't communicate how can you share a culture?
Shared does not equal single, and Britain itself is not an amorphous single blob but an amalgam of different (native) cultures and languages.
Like it or not Britain is not able to separate itself from the politics of Europe. It never has been and it never will be. We're stuck here and the only way out is to emigrate to some part of the Anglosphere where the risk of coming across someone who can't understand you, even if you do speak loudly, is much lower.
Having been in the South of france for the last several weeks it kept occuring to me that if only the 17 million Brexiteers had seen at first hand the practical advantages of being able to move to or through a smorgasbord of cultures and languages without restriction the vote would almost certainly have been different.
Europe is a very special continent. The most cultured and varied in the world. To be an integral part of it is a great privilege and anything that drawsency and shengen and not allowed the the Little Englanders to frame the debate around a fear of foreigners.
Its a shame you Little Europeans can't see the big wide wonderful world outside of your little 7% of the world's population. And I am sure Asia might have quite a lot to say about your culture and variety. But of course being a parochial Little European all those yellow and brown people look the same to you.
This criticism of Roger is pathetic. It’s totally disingenuous to accuse those who love European culture of racism.
Not at all. It is the exceptionalism that Roger regularly displays that is offensive. The idea that there is such a thing as a 'European' culture and that it is somehow superior to those of the other 93% of the world's population is obnoxious. I am not surprised you rush to his defence.
Of course there is a “European” culture.
I’m not surprised to see you start with a faulty premise and end up with a deranged and obnoxious conclusion, however.
Really. Care to define it? Something that encompasses all the countries of Europe or even all the countries of the EU? We don't even all share the same language roots. What there are are lots of different cultures with some mingling around the edges. But the idea there is a shared 'European' culture is as dumb as the idea there is a shared 'Asian' culture or a shared 'African' culture.
Of course you Little Europeans with your 7% of the world's population like to think you are something special but given most of you have never even travelled outside of Europe I am not surprised you have these delusions.
Of course there's a European culture you peasant everyone from and before Shakespeare and a hundred others.
So no actual answer then. Par for the course from you.
Well let’s start with 1066 and the cross fertilisation of the European cultures that flowed from there when English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French, Spanish, Italian, and many other peoples were intertwined.
So Shakespeare is an example of European culture? At the time did many outside England really know of his works? We were too busy fighting the French and Spanish at the time? Were his works not spread via the new world, the empire and Anglosphere afterwards?
English culture maybe British but not a shared European culture - even though he wrote a few plays set in Italy.
Shakespeare did not start to be recognised as the greatest English writer in England until around a century later. How well were Cervantes, Moliere and Goethe known outside their countries in their lifetimes?
Do the Welsh figure in your world view, or are they as JS Mill said, an "inferior and more backward portion of the human race" who had the good fortune to be absorbed into the British nation?
This illusory concept of some shared European culture is a myth of elites and the Tuscany second home owning class. Europe is a continent of multiple cultures and languages and traditions - not some amorphous single culture or set of values.
The majority of Brits want to live and work in the own country where their multi generational families and friends are. Yes they enjoy the odd two week break to Spain or Greece or wherever but Citizens of Nicaragua also have 3 months visa free travel rights to the EU for tourism so that won't end.
In the end if you are skilled enough or have the right qualifications and are minded so you can move anywhere.
As for values and culture I believe sharing a common language, history and traditions are are pre requisite. We have that with Ireland, Canada, NZ, Australia, Malta and yes even nations where English is a common language like Singapore or Jamaica or India.
I actually feel more at home in Singapore than many parts of Europe - because of that. You can even go to M&S and Virgin active - my UK gym chain - and everyone pretty much can converse in English. Because if you can't communicate how can you share a culture?
Shared does not equal single, and Britain itself is not an amorphous single blob but an amalgam of different (native) cultures and languages.
Like it or not Britain is not able to separate itself from the politics of Europe. It never has been and it never will be. We're stuck here and the only way out is to emigrate to some part of the Anglosphere where the risk of coming across someone who can't understand you, even if you do speak loudly, is much lower.
Nobody disagrees. It’s the level of “separation” we are all debating.
Everything you wrote applies to Ireland’s relationship with Britain. They’ve altered the their realtionship over the past century with us, from what it was. The path changed with a jolt in 1916-22 and they have generally pursued gradual greater separation since perfectly successfully.
Well let’s start with 1066 and the cross fertilisation of the European cultures that flowed from there when English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French, Spanish, Italian, and many other peoples were intertwined.
Dolt.
So the whole of Europe is basically a Norman culture? I am sure the Finns and Greeks would have plenty to say about that. All you are doing in your ignorance is making my point for me.
Do the Welsh figure in your world view, or are they as JS Mill said, an "inferior and more backward portion of the human race" who had the good fortune to be absorbed into the British nation?
This illusory concept of some shared European culture is a myth of elites and the Tuscany second home owning class. Europe is a continent of multiple cultures and languages and traditions - not some amorphous single culture or set of values.
The majority of Brits want to live and work in the own country where their multi generational families and friends are. Yes they enjoy the odd two week break to Spain or Greece or wherever but Citizens of Nicaragua also have 3 months visa free travel rights to the EU for tourism so that won't end.
In the end if you are skilled enough or have the right qualifications and are minded so you can move anywhere.
As for values and culture I believe sharing a common language, history and traditions are are pre requisite. We have that with Ireland, Canada, NZ, Australia, Malta and yes even nations where English is a common language like Singapore or Jamaica or India.
I actually feel more at home in Singapore than many parts of Europe - because of that. You can even go to M&S and Virgin active - my UK gym chain - and everyone pretty much can converse in English. Because if you can't communicate how can you share a culture?
Shared does not equal single, and Britain itself is not an amorphous single blob but an amalgam of different (native) cultures and languages.
Like it or not Britain is not able to separate itself from the politics of Europe. It never has been and it never will be. We're stuck here and the only way out is to emigrate to some part of the Anglosphere where the risk of coming across someone who can't understand you, even if you do speak loudly, is much lower.
Nobody disagrees. It’s the level of “separation” we are all debating.
Everything you wrote applies to Ireland’s relationship with Britain. They’ve altered the their realtionship over the past century with us, from what it was. The path changed with a jolt in 1916-22 and they have generally pursued gradual greater separation since perfectly successfully.
So why can’t we follow their example?
Ireland has been pursuing gradual integration with the UK, along with the rest of Europe, since 1973. We should indeed follow their example.
As a NZer who lives in inner London and works with clients around the world, I’m perhaps a poor candidate to be a “little European”, a term you made up in order to mount another offensive attack on the stupid people you have to inhabit an island with.
Suggest you bone up on a few wiki entries on Christianity, western art, the renaissance, enlightenment and post war social democracy for starters.
I have probably forgotten more about European history than you ever knew and it wasn't based on anything written in wikipedia either. Back under your rock Gardencrawler. Your stupidity is reaching new bounds today.
How can there be a European history if there is no European culture? And why do you keep banging on about linguistic similarities?
Cultures are not islands and have large areas of overlap and common features with neighbours in particular, for much the same reasons that our culture overlaps with our European neighbours. We share common ancesters, language roots, history, art, foods, music, political and social systems.
We certainly don't share common language roots with Hungarians or Finns. Nor with the Basques for that matter.
English is a Germanic language with many roots from Latin, from Romance languages that largely come from Latin, and from Greek. It is much closer to German, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Russian - and to the Scandinavian languages, Italian, Irish, Dutch, Polish and Czech - than it is to any non-European languages. Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Basque and the Sami languages are indeed non-Indo-European but their combined number of speakers is less than 20 million. If there are any political factions among speakers of those languages who oppose EU membership on the grounds of not sharing a common Indo-European ancestry, they may well be the kind of people who wear jackboots as they express their ideas about ancient race movements.
Nor do we share common ancestors beyond the most basic 'out of Africa' variety.
You're mistaken. The Proto-Indo-Europeans were MUCH more recent than any big migration out of Africa. They were neolithic.
You may believe that Britain has a specialness that makes EU non-membership its best and most right status, truest to its nature, history, destiny, whatever, but you won't find much support for your position in matters of language or ancestry.
(English) is much closer to German, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Russian - and to the Scandinavian languages, Italian, Irish, Dutch, Polish and Czech - than it is to any non-European languages.
Correction: closer than it is to any non-Indo-European language. English is closer to Sanskrit than it is to Basque.
One element that is sometimes forgotten is that the Scottish conservatives were elected on an unionist platform not a Brexit platform. If the two clash then unionism will win. Northern Ireland is as important to the Scots as England.
LOL said whilst polishing his sash, you could not make it up, knuckle draggers still in existence.
One element that is sometimes forgotten is that the Scottish conservatives were elected on an unionist platform not a Brexit platform. If the two clash then unionism will win. Northern Ireland is as important to the Scots as England.
LOL said whilst polishing his sash, you could not make it up, knuckle draggers still in existence.
So Shakespeare is an example of European culture? At the time did many outside England really know of his works? We were too busy fighting the French and Spanish at the time? Were his works not spread via the new world, the empire and Anglosphere afterwards?
English culture maybe British but not a shared European culture - even though he wrote a few plays set in Italy.
Shakespeare did not start to be recognised as the greatest English writer in England until around a century later. How well were Cervantes, Moliere and Goethe known outside their countries in their lifetimes?
English, Spanish, French and German culture written in four different languages - they are no more European culture than they are world culture!
In terms of specific haplotypes, DNA in Britain is closer to Basque DNA than it is to any other group. This reflects the fact that the ancestor population came north after the end of the last Ice age, and that is so long ago that even though the population numbers were pretty small any subsequent intermarriage passed the earliest DNA to our own day. The subsequent settlement waves, "Celtic", "Germanic-Saxon", "Nordic-Danish/Norman"" have not drowned out the the DNA of the first Stone Age inhabitants. Nevertheless although the DNA is relatively identifiable, the relationship with other European populations is still exceptionally close: differences are merely of degree, not of type. From the point of view of genetics, of course the UK is European.
Interestingly and increasingly, the DNA of, say Canada, Australia, the US in the so-called Anglosphere, is reflecting local conditions: for, example, the European, never mind the British, element of the US population is likely to be a minority within a couple of decades. Canadians may have French, Ukrainian or Chinese culture and language. Having lived in Canada and the US, I therefore do not accept that we have much of a common culture either. We remain "divided by a common language". The ex-Dominians are utterly uninterested in the UK and often fiercely critical of the legacy of colonialism, and this is just as true in Australia and New Zealnd. They don't trade with us, they don't share our views and increasingly they don't look like us.
So those hard Brexit fanatics who want the UK to pretend it isn't a European country and that we will find friends in the Anglosphere will soon get a cold blast of reality. Attempting to break all the European links we have built up over the past 70 years is an extreme and extremely stupid position. By rejecting all middle ways between membership and crash out Brexit, the hard Brexiteers are committing the country to policies that are guaranteed to fail.
Eventually, we will have to rejoin, and we will do so, as in the past, from a position of weakness and not of strength.
Although it is indeed not too late to stop, the fact is that the Political-journalistic complex has decreed the fate of the nation and Johnson, Gove, Murdoch and Dacre will not be denied, no matter how ignorant and arrogant their positions may seem to most of the rest of us.
I have left the UK, it will be up to the next generation to make good the shambles - lost triple-A, leader to laggard in the G-7, a trashed repution for moderation and competence, and hundreds of billion of Pounds gone, and far, far worse to come, of the past three years of sole Tory rule. By the end of this, I expect that even the word "Tory" will become an expletive.
Comments
As ever these things are a mix. I’m sure the American predeliction for starting dinner about the time the Spanish are finishing lunch baffles them both and us, for instance.
English culture maybe British but not a shared European culture - even though he wrote a few plays set in Italy.
As for religion creating a common culture on that logic the Republic of Ireland has more in common culturally with the Philippines (a Catholic country due to Spanish influence) or Honduras than it does with the UK. Really?
Like it or not Britain is not able to separate itself from the politics of Europe. It never has been and it never will be. We're stuck here and the only way out is to emigrate to some part of the Anglosphere where the risk of coming across someone who can't understand you, even if you do speak loudly, is much lower.
NEW THREAD
Dolt.
Everything you wrote applies to Ireland’s relationship with Britain. They’ve altered the their realtionship over the past century with us, from what it was. The path changed with a jolt in 1916-22 and they have generally pursued gradual greater separation since perfectly successfully.
So why can’t we follow their example?
You are quite mad.
You may believe that Britain has a specialness that makes EU non-membership its best and most right status, truest to its nature, history, destiny, whatever, but you won't find much support for your position in matters of language or ancestry.
Interestingly and increasingly, the DNA of, say Canada, Australia, the US in the so-called Anglosphere, is reflecting local conditions: for, example, the European, never mind the British, element of the US population is likely to be a minority within a couple of decades. Canadians may have French, Ukrainian or Chinese culture and language. Having lived in Canada and the US, I therefore do not accept that we have much of a common culture either. We remain "divided by a common language". The ex-Dominians are utterly uninterested in the UK and often fiercely critical of the legacy of colonialism, and this is just as true in Australia and New Zealnd. They don't trade with us, they don't share our views and increasingly they don't look like us.
So those hard Brexit fanatics who want the UK to pretend it isn't a European country and that we will find friends in the Anglosphere will soon get a cold blast of reality. Attempting to break all the European links we have built up over the past 70 years is an extreme and extremely stupid position. By rejecting all middle ways between membership and crash out Brexit, the hard Brexiteers are committing the country to policies that are guaranteed to fail.
Eventually, we will have to rejoin, and we will do so, as in the past, from a position of weakness and not of strength.
Although it is indeed not too late to stop, the fact is that the Political-journalistic complex has decreed the fate of the nation and Johnson, Gove, Murdoch and Dacre will not be denied, no matter how ignorant and arrogant their positions may seem to most of the rest of us.
I have left the UK, it will be up to the next generation to make good the shambles - lost triple-A, leader to laggard in the G-7, a trashed repution for moderation and competence, and hundreds of billion of Pounds gone, and far, far worse to come, of the past three years of sole Tory rule. By the end of this, I expect that even the word "Tory" will become an expletive.