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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB/Polling Matters podcast looking at the results of the local

SystemSystem Posts: 12,256
edited May 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB/Polling Matters podcast looking at the results of the local and the implications

Keiran Pedley takes us through Thursday’s Local Election results, calling out the results we should pay attention to and asking what this all means for the main parties at Westminster.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    edited May 2018
    1st like Corbyn on Thursday
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    Not fair! I was first. :angry:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    FPT
    ydoethur said:

    On topic this chart is great to silence those Tories/May fans who frottage themselves silly over the fact Mrs May did so well because she polled over 40%.

    They ignore the fact Corbyn polled in the 40s as well.

    To be strictly accurate he polled 39.99 on a nationwide share.

    Per opposed candidate it was over 40.
    I use the GB figure where Corbyn polled 41%.

    Is useful considering the lack of candidates in Northern Ireland and most of the polls are GB wide.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    Fourth like decent politics in a two horse race right now.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    tlg86 said:

    Not fair! I was first. :angry:

    Too slow
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    Mortimer said:

    Omnium said:

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    Why mention that Owen Jones is 'Oxford educated'? Is it supposed to make us surprised at his stupidity or just add further confirmation of it?

    Makes me very proud to have been at the other place.
    Cos Diane Abbott is a credit to all her fellow students?
    I raise you by a Polly Toynbee.
    Nick Griffin is a trump card in this game, right?
    Nah, Jeffrey Archer is the the trump card in this game.

    Brasenose let in just anybody don't they?
    Yeah, some mediocre, indolent posh boy called Cameron. Disappeared without trace after graduation.
    Dave would have gone down as our finest PM if he had attended Balliol.
    What would have happened if he'd been at Merton?
    With 'too many tweets make a twat' you can argue that Dave made a bigger contribution to the English language than Merton alumnus J.R.R Tolkien.
    Orc, hobbit, ent, balrog.

    Kris Kristofferson was a Merton man, and Kris Kristofferson wrote Me and Bobby McGee, which puts Merton pretty centrally on the cultural map.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    From a legal standpoint this is a genuinely interesting precedent.

    Cambridge Analytica has been ordered to hand over all the data and personal information it has on an American voter, including details of where it got the data and what it did with it, or face a criminal prosecution.

    The UK Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) served the enforcement notice to the company on Friday in a landmark legal decision that opens the way for up to 240 million other American voters to request their data back from the firm under British data protection laws.

    The test case was taken to the ICO by David Carroll, an associate professor at Parsons School of Design in New York. As a US citizen, he had no means of obtaining this information under US law, but in January 2016 he discovered Cambridge Analytica had processed US voter data in the UK and that this gave him rights under British laws. Cambridge Analytica had refused to accept this and told the ICO that Carroll was no more entitled to make a so-called “subject access request” under the UK Data Protection Act “than a member of the Taliban sitting in a cave in the remotest corner of Afghanistan”.

    The ICO did not accept this as a valid legal argument and has now told SCL Elections, which acted as the data controller for Cambridge Analytica, that it has 30 days to comply or appeal. Cambridge Analytica and its affiliates announced this week that they had gone into liquidation, but the ICO has made it clear that it cannot avoid its responsibilities under UK law and states that “failure to comply with this enforcement notice is a criminal offence”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/05/cambridge-analytica-uk-regulator-release-data-us-voter-david-carroll
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5695031/John-McDonnell-hails-Marxism-one-biggest-influences-Labour.html

    John McDonnell has called Marxism 'a force for change today' and one of the biggest influence of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

    The Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a strident defence of Marxism at an event in London to commemorate 200 years since Karl Marx's birth.

    'Marxism is about developing democracy," - of course it is John.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,063
    Sir Alex Ferguson having emergency surgery for a brain haemorrhage
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,063

    Sir Alex Ferguson having emergency surgery for a brain haemorrhage

    In intensive care recovering
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    Floater said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5695031/John-McDonnell-hails-Marxism-one-biggest-influences-Labour.html

    John McDonnell has called Marxism 'a force for change today' and one of the biggest influence of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

    The Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a strident defence of Marxism at an event in London to commemorate 200 years since Karl Marx's birth.

    'Marxism is about developing democracy," - of course it is John.

    Makes you wonder a bit about the bicentenary of Nietzsche in 2044. Will anybody - say a hard right dodgy character like Juncker - be unwise enough to talk about the huge influence Nietzsche had on nationalism and the development of pan-European governmental systems? Or is he too politically sensitive, even though he was intellectually opposed to many things Nazism did and his ideas had influence in many more fields than Marx?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    Blimey.

    Aides to Donald Trump, the US president, hired an Israeli private intelligence agency to orchestrate a “dirty ops” campaign against key individuals from the Obama administration who helped negotiate the Iran nuclear deal, the Observer can reveal.

    People in the Trump camp contacted private investigators in May last year to “get dirt” on Ben Rhodes, who had been one of Barack Obama’s top national security advisers, and Colin Kahl, deputy assistant to Obama, as part of an elaborate attempt to discredit the deal.

    The extraordinary revelations come days before Trump’s 12 May deadline to either scrap or continue to abide by the international deal limiting Iran’s nuclear programme.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/05/trump-team-hired-spy-firm-dirty-ops-iran-nuclear-deal
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited May 2018
    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    Mortimer said:

    Omnium said:

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    Why mention that Owen Jones is 'Oxford educated'? Is it supposed to make us surprised at his stupidity or just add further confirmation of it?

    Makes me very proud to have been at the other place.
    Cos Diane Abbott is a credit to all her fellow students?
    I raise you by a Polly Toynbee.
    Nick Griffin is a trump card in this game, right?
    Nah, Jeffrey Archer is the the trump card in this game.

    Brasenose let in just anybody don't they?
    Yeah, some mediocre, indolent posh boy called Cameron. Disappeared without trace after graduation.
    Dave would have gone down as our finest PM if he had attended Balliol.
    What would have happened if he'd been at Merton?
    With 'too many tweets make a twat' you can argue that Dave made a bigger contribution to the English language than Merton alumnus J.R.R Tolkien.
    Orc, hobbit, ent, balrog.

    Kris Kristofferson was a Merton man, and Kris Kristofferson wrote Me and Bobby McGee, which puts Merton pretty centrally on the cultural map.
    "Exeunt pursued by a balrog" does flow trippingly on the tongue.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,133

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Will the government fall before the year is out?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,812

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,718
    Floater said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5695031/John-McDonnell-hails-Marxism-one-biggest-influences-Labour.html

    John McDonnell has called Marxism 'a force for change today' and one of the biggest influence of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

    The Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a strident defence of Marxism at an event in London to commemorate 200 years since Karl Marx's birth.

    'Marxism is about developing democracy," - of course it is John.

    I thought it was about murdering your enemies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,377

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    Wishful thinking! But I hope you are right.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,718

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Will the government fall before the year is out?
    What I said in February.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Heath polled 42% in 1966 and lost by a landslide.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    She might launch it with a slogan like 'crush the sabot...' ah, hold on, spotted a flaw in your plan.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:

    Heath polled 42% in 1966 and lost by a landslide.

    But the Tory and Labour vote shares were then articially high because circa 250 seats only had two candidates. Even the Liberals only contested 330 of the 630 seats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    edited May 2018

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Clearly they don't, the vast majority of Tory voters and MPs believe we have to leave the single market to end free movement and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell agree with them
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Clearly they don't, the vast majority of Tory voters and MPs believe we have to leave the single market to end free movement and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell agree with them
    If Mrs May had the numbers she wouldn't keep on delaying key Brexit votes.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,144
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Clearly they don't, the vast majority of Tory voters and MPs believe we have to leave the single market to end free movement and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell agree with them
    I rather wonder what it will do for politics if the wise and the great fail to achieve their aim of keeping us in the EU for our own good, and then after all leaving turns out to have been the best decision the UK has ever made.

    Good evening, everyone.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,495
    edited May 2018

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    May would do that if she were a strategic genius. She is not. Her aim is to keep merkeling until everyone’s forgotten the terms of the argument. Her only objective to to deliver Brexit - any Brexit - and hope that a happy party and nation will reward her with another term.

    Another referendum introduces complexity into that mission, which is why she won’t go for it unless forced to by Parliament under the guise of approving the final deal.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
    Best of five ?!? .. :smiley:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    Sean_F said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
    Then we have a Glorious Revolution.

    We've not had one in ages, Brexit shows we clearly need some Johnny Foreigners to civilise us once more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    edited May 2018

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    May would do that if she were a strategic genius. She is not. Her aim is to keep merkeling until everyone’s forgotten the terms of the argument. Her only objective to to deliver Brexit - any Brexit - and hope that a happy party and nation will reward her with another term.

    Another referendum introduces complexity into that mission, which is why she won’t go for it unless forced to by Parliament under the guise of approving the final deal.
    Also, unless she's campaigning for leave/cliff-edge, it's difficult to see how it would soften (still less reverse) Brexit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137

    Sean_F said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
    Then we have a Glorious Revolution.

    We've not had one in ages, Brexit shows we clearly need some Johnny Foreigners to civilise us once more.
    You are saying we need double Dutch?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Clearly they don't, the vast majority of Tory voters and MPs believe we have to leave the single market to end free movement and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell agree with them
    If Mrs May had the numbers she wouldn't keep on delaying key Brexit votes.
    Any Tory MP in a Leave constituency who fails to back leaving the single market risks de selection by their Tory Association
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    edited May 2018
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
    Then we have a Glorious Revolution.

    We've not had one in ages, Brexit shows we clearly need some Johnny Foreigners to civilise us once more.
    You are saying we need double Dutch?
    I was going to make a gag about the country needing a Dutch Rudder but I realise you're all too innocent to know what one is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    AnneJGP said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Clearly they don't, the vast majority of Tory voters and MPs believe we have to leave the single market to end free movement and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell agree with them
    I rather wonder what it will do for politics if the wise and the great fail to achieve their aim of keeping us in the EU for our own good, and then after all leaving turns out to have been the best decision the UK has ever made.

    Good evening, everyone.
    Well we will never find out if they keep stalling but they can only really do so for so long
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,346
    edited May 2018
    Popular vote in Redbridge (going by leading candidates in each ward):

    Lab 55.17%
    Con 34.30%
    LD 5.07%
    Grn 2.73%
    Ind 2.72%

    Labour gained 16 seats v. 2014, Cons lost 13.
    2014 Lab 35, Con 25, LD 3
    2018 Lab 51, Con 12
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If I were May I would play for time and then put the hammer down with a second referendum.
    What if it produces the same result as the first referendum?
    Then we have a Glorious Revolution.

    We've not had one in ages, Brexit shows we clearly need some Johnny Foreigners to civilise us once more.
    You are saying we need double Dutch?
    I was going to make a gag about the country needing a Dutch Rudder but I realise you're all too innocent to know what one is.
    Well, forewarned is forearmed for the necessary cock-up...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    I'm really confused. Why has Henderson blacked out the picture of Princess Charlotte holding her brother (except for the Star)?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    tlg86 said:

    I'm really confused. Why has Henderson blacked out the picture of Princess Charlotte holding her brother (except for the Star)?

    There's an embargo in place for the big pictures.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    tlg86 said:

    I'm really confused. Why has Henderson blacked out the picture of Princess Charlotte holding her brother (except for the Star)?

    embargoed

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/992864967421562880
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    If Parliament rejects the deal it effectively dies, I expect in the end it will accept the deal.

    May will also not call a second referendum neither will Corbyn
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,546
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Something to look forward to!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258

    tlg86 said:

    I'm really confused. Why has Henderson blacked out the picture of Princess Charlotte holding her brother (except for the Star)?

    There's an embargo in place for the big pictures.
    I see, nobody on this site has ever broken an embargo have they?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I'm really confused. Why has Henderson blacked out the picture of Princess Charlotte holding her brother (except for the Star)?

    There's an embargo in place for the big pictures.
    I see, nobody on this site has ever broken an embargo have they?
    Only by accident.

    The save to draft button is way too close to the publish button.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Something to look forward to!
    *hides behind sofa*
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    My record breaks are 147.

    No wait, my record breaks are, 1,4, and 7.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    If Parliament rejects the deal it effectively dies, I expect in the end it will accept the deal.

    May will also not call a second referendum neither will Corbyn
    It would at least beinteresting to see Corbyn take a stand his supporters definitely do not like.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    May is putting me in mind of Richard Cromwell, caught between competing interests and without the strength among either to do anything about it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5695031/John-McDonnell-hails-Marxism-one-biggest-influences-Labour.html

    John McDonnell has called Marxism 'a force for change today' and one of the biggest influence of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

    The Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a strident defence of Marxism at an event in London to commemorate 200 years since Karl Marx's birth.

    'Marxism is about developing democracy," - of course it is John.

    I thought it was about murdering your enemies.
    Certainly not about democracy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137

    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    My record breaks are 147.

    No wait, my record breaks are, 1,4, and 7.
    And that is why good punctuation is so important, as I observed while helping my uncle jack off a horse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    May is putting me in mind of Richard Cromwell, caught between competing interests and without the strength among either to do anything about it.
    Who are you suggesting as General Monk and Charles II?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    My record breaks are 147.

    No wait, my record breaks are, 1,4, and 7.
    And that is why good punctuation is so important, as I observed while helping my uncle jack off a horse.
    https://twitter.com/iamoxfordcomma/status/835069687092359168
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    Will the government fall before the year is out?
    The possibility is increasing. May clearly doesn't have the numbers, even with the Cabinet possibly, for the choices she feels are necessary, and doesn't have the numbers in parliament for other options.

    Also, I've only just noticed your profile pic is for Weyland-Yutani Corp. What better worlds are you building?
    Floater said:



    'Marxism is about developing democracy," - of course it is John.

    Then its proponents where it is dominant do a very poor job of it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    My record breaks are 147.

    No wait, my record breaks are, 1,4, and 7.
    And that is why good punctuation is so important, as I observed while helping my uncle jack off a horse.
    https://twitter.com/iamoxfordcomma/status/835069687092359168
    An honourable mention to the person who wrote the following:

    'I hate those people who "vote Labour because my dad did sheep.'

    (Yes, that's a real error somebody once made.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    May is putting me in mind of Richard Cromwell, caught between competing interests and without the strength among either to do anything about it.
    Who are you suggesting as General Monk and Charles II?
    Interim PM Dominic Grieve and David Cameron returning with the message 'let's just forget the last few years happened, alright'?

    Although really we need a remainer, who became a leaver, then became a remainer again I suppose - so we need a Cabinet or ex Cabinet remainer (one not fired for incompetence or scandal) who served under May for a time. I'd say perhaps Javid but he seems more strident now. Hunt?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited May 2018

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay, the same people will sling us out of power.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    This is a cracker of a semi-final.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    AndyJS said:

    ydoethur said:

    It's immensely reassuring to see Hawkins and Williams missing easy balls everywhere.

    It makes me feel so much better about my own efforts.

    This is a cracker of a semi-final.
    Pot the near-impossible red.

    Overcut the black off the spot.

    It's riveting.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    For what its worth, I think if May was pushed by a mayoralty of Tory MPs to renege of Brexit. I think a breakaway party led by somebody like Jacob Reeas-Mogg, could well come out on top.

    Don't think it will happen,
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    I still think Corbyn won't be Labour leader at the next election. It'll be Chuka Umunna or Yvette Cooper.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    nonsense, there will be outrage if the tories cancel brexit and i speak as a die hard tory, leave tories will abandon the party forever if they cancel brexit because the country is forever screwed if we remain so may as well let corbyn screw it up anyhow what’s the difference
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    BigRich said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    For what its worth, I think if May was pushed by a mayoralty of Tory MPs to renege of Brexit. I think a breakaway party led by somebody like Jacob Reeas-Mogg, could well come out on top.

    Don't think it will happen,
    I see a Labour landslide if the Tories have a breakaway party. It's the same reason Labour MPs who thought the party was doomed still did nothing under Corbyn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,137
    In fairness, that was a beautiful pot on the black.

    Shame it was a foul.

    And Williams misses the red...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
    I have faith in my fellow Tories.

    Plus if you are right, 5 years of Corbyn free of state aid rules will convince us to rejoin the Single Market.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,723
    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    If the Tory leadership decides to abandon Brexit they do not deserve to be in.power. The party will split again as it did in the 1840s.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    edited May 2018

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
    I have faith in my fellow Tories.

    Plus if you are right, 5 years of Corbyn free of state aid rules will convince us to rejoin the Single Market.
    See, even you're beginning to see how Corbyn being in power wouldn't be so bad (albeit due to perceived consequence of how bad he might be, ironically) - others will take it much simpler. It's not as though it needs to make sense, Labour got a lot of Remain votes even though they weren;t for remain last time.

    The Tories face a struggle to win next time regardless, and their only chance is getting a deal they can sell to most of their voters are pretty good, and hope the economic disruption is not too great straight away. If we go to the polls sooner, with them still so divided, Corbyn will win for sure.

    For reasons like this.



    If the Tory leadership decides to abandon Brexit they do not deserve to be in.power. The party will split again as it did in the 1840s.

    I believe he is 5-1 as next PM?

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    BigRich said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    For what its worth, I think if May was pushed by a mayoralty of Tory MPs to renege of Brexit. I think a breakaway party led by somebody like Jacob Reeas-Mogg, could well come out on top.

    Don't think it will happen,
    We will only remain if the electorate vote for it in a second referendum. Whether Parliament or the people do is not the key point.

    In either case, Leavers would feel betrayed. Some will take the view that it doesn’t matter if Corbyn is our prime minister, because we won’t be an independent country. Large parts of our national life will still be governed by people who aren’t democratically accountable to the British people, so who cares who sits in Number 10?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    If Tory rebels forced May into staying in the single market, complete with free movement, it would completely crash the Conservative Party down to about 30% of the vote and give Corbyn a landslide.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If you're seeing it in the papers, then the maths doesn't work.

    We're leaving. It's a shame some people can't accept that.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
    I have faith in my fellow Tories.

    Plus if you are right, 5 years of Corbyn free of state aid rules will convince us to rejoin the Single Market.
    See, even you're beginning to see how Corbyn being in power wouldn't be so bad (albeit due to perceived consequence of how bad he might be, ironically) - others will take it much simpler. It's not as though it needs to make sense, Labour got a lot of Remain votes even though they weren;t for remain last time.

    The Tories face a struggle to win next time regardless, and their only chance is getting a deal they can sell to most of their voters are pretty good, and hope the economic disruption is not too great straight away. If we go to the polls sooner, with them still so divided, Corbyn will win for sure.

    For reasons like this.



    If the Tory leadership decides to abandon Brexit they do not deserve to be in.power. The party will split again as it did in the 1840s.

    I believe he is 5-1 as next PM?

    5/1 with Ladbrokes last time I checked.

    If the country elects Corbyn as PM I'll consider the greatest act of national self mutilation since well Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
    I have faith in my fellow Tories.

    Plus if you are right, 5 years of Corbyn free of state aid rules will convince us to rejoin the Single Market.
    See, even you're beginning to see how Corbyn being in power wouldn't be so bad (albeit due to perceived consequence of how bad he might be, ironically) - others will take it much simpler. It's not as though it needs to make sense, Labour got a lot of Remain votes even though they weren;t for remain last time.

    The Tories face a struggle to win next time regardless, and their only chance is getting a deal they can sell to most of their voters are pretty good, and hope the economic disruption is not too great straight away. If we go to the polls sooner, with them still so divided, Corbyn will win for sure.

    For reasons like this.



    If the Tory leadership decides to abandon Brexit they do not deserve to be in.power. The party will split again as it did in the 1840s.

    I believe he is 5-1 as next PM?

    5/1 with Ladbrokes last time I checked.

    If the country elects Corbyn as PM I'll consider the greatest act of national self mutilation since well Brexit.
    Proving the country is quite capable of it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    kle4 said:

    Proving the country is quite capable of it.

    Scary times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,546

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    I see that there is a back up plan concerning the Irish border worked out. Works for me:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/04/irish-border-backup-plan-suggests-checks-ports-airports-brexit
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Elliot said:

    If Tory rebels forced May into staying in the single market, complete with free movement, it would completely crash the Conservative Party down to about 30% of the vote and give Corbyn a landslide.

    How do you know?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    kle4 said:

    BigRich said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    For what its worth, I think if May was pushed by a mayoralty of Tory MPs to renege of Brexit. I think a breakaway party led by somebody like Jacob Reeas-Mogg, could well come out on top.

    Don't think it will happen,
    I see a Labour landslide if the Tories have a breakaway party. It's the same reason Labour MPs who thought the party was doomed still did nothing under Corbyn.
    Labor are at 40% in the opinion poles at got 35% NVE last week partly because some people like Corbyn, but also Because May and Cable are so uttaly uninspiring. A new party with a clear message, no party baggage and a reasonably charismatic leader and who knows.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,546

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    It doesn't need to be most of them. It doesn't even need to be a lot of them. I think the chance is very good that Corbyn becomes PM in such a situation.
    I have faith in my fellow Tories.

    Plus if you are right, 5 years of Corbyn free of state aid rules will convince us to rejoin the Single Market.
    See, even you're beginning to see how Corbyn being in power wouldn't be so bad (albeit due to perceived consequence of how bad he might be, ironically) - others will take it much simpler. It's not as though it needs to make sense, Labour got a lot of Remain votes even though they weren;t for remain last time.

    The Tories face a struggle to win next time regardless, and their only chance is getting a deal they can sell to most of their voters are pretty good, and hope the economic disruption is not too great straight away. If we go to the polls sooner, with them still so divided, Corbyn will win for sure.

    For reasons like this.



    If the Tory leadership decides to abandon Brexit they do not deserve to be in.power. The party will split again as it did in the 1840s.

    I believe he is 5-1 as next PM?

    5/1 with Ladbrokes last time I checked.

    If the country elects Corbyn as PM I'll consider the greatest act of national self mutilation since well Brexit.
    Nah, it'll be fine. His second term may not be so good though.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,323
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    I see that there is a back up plan concerning the Irish border worked out. Works for me:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/04/irish-border-backup-plan-suggests-checks-ports-airports-brexit
    Works for me.

    I suspect the DUP will go into full No Surrender mode.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    If the Tories split, the Remainer wing will have most MPs initially, and so will get to keep the name, headquarters etc. However, it will have no activists, score 10% in the polls, and would be utterly decimated at the next general election.

    We would be left with about 150-200 Brexit Party MPs, facing Corbyn with a healthy majority.

    I hope that’s what Soubry and Clarke want.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    BigRich said:

    kle4 said:

    BigRich said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    Not whilst the possibility of Corbyn and McDonnell taking power is realistic.
    That’s where you, Soubry, Clarke and the rest of the Remainer rebels are dead wrong.

    70-80% of our current supporters want us to leave. If we don’t, a proportion of those will abstain, and some will actually vote Labour to punish us for it. We have become so identified with Brexit that we will not be thanked by Remainers if we end up staying.

    Your beloved Cameron and Osborne only got their majority because of the EU referendum promise. If we stay the same people will sling us out of power.
    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.
    For what its worth, I think if May was pushed by a mayoralty of Tory MPs to renege of Brexit. I think a breakaway party led by somebody like Jacob Reeas-Mogg, could well come out on top.

    Don't think it will happen,
    I see a Labour landslide if the Tories have a breakaway party. It's the same reason Labour MPs who thought the party was doomed still did nothing under Corbyn.
    Labor are at 40% in the opinion poles at got 35% NVE last week partly because some people like Corbyn, but also Because May and Cable are so uttaly uninspiring. A new party with a clear message, no party baggage and a reasonably charismatic leader and who knows.
    Ignore voting intention and put your faith in leader ratings and here Corbyn trails May.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Certainly I think the idea sufficient numbers won't stay at home or switch (whether that makes sense or not) over a cancellation of Brexit to cause Corbyn to become PM is very naiive.

    Most Tory Leavers are patriots.

    They won't let Corbyn become PM.
    I see that there is a back up plan concerning the Irish border worked out. Works for me:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/04/irish-border-backup-plan-suggests-checks-ports-airports-brexit
    Why should the border between a foreign country be softer than between parts of the same country?

    Makes no sense, so let's file it in the 'nah, forget it' bin.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    Mortimer said:

    https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/992849236634021888

    While the government has been obsessing over the customs union battle, Tory rebels have been building numbers behind keeping U.K. in single market - they say they’ve got enough to pass an amendment....

    ...but it’s not going to happen if Labour don’t back it...

    ...rebels in both the Lords and Commons are warning Corbyn he is going to spark a major internal row unless he supports the single market...

    ...a time was always going to come when Corbyn would have to answer to his pro-EU membership - that time just came closer.

    If you're seeing it in the papers, then the maths doesn't work.

    We've seen plenty in the papers from agitators on both sides of the debate, frankly, so who knows what's going on. We know for a fact the Cabinet is still not united on a way forward, and if that is the case, I'd say the odds are good May does not have the numbers to dictate any way forward, in which case the rebels might well have a chance
    BigRich said:



    Labor are at 40% in the opinion poles at got 35% NVE last week partly because some people like Corbyn, but also Because May and Cable are so uttaly uninspiring. A new party with a clear message, no party baggage and a reasonably charismatic leader and who knows.

    Anything is possible, but I don't think lack of party baggage is a positive thing. People often think it would be, but it isn't only FPTP that makes it difficult for new parties to break through, it's the attachment even normal people have to our political tribes. I've known non-voters still describe themselves in terms of party support. Besides, we had a party with a clear message (on Brexit at least) and a reasonably charismatic leader, and it managed to pressure the main parties, but not break through.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    RoyalBlue said:

    If the Tories split, the Remainer wing will have most MPs initially, and so will get to keep the name, headquarters etc. However, it will have no activists, score 10% in the polls, and would be utterly decimated at the next general election.

    We would be left with about 150-200 Brexit Party MPs, facing Corbyn with a healthy majority.

    I hope that’s what Soubry and Clarke want.

    Unless the Remainer wing combines with the LDs and moderate pro EU Labour MPs to form a UK version of 'En Marche'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    Elliot said:

    If Tory rebels forced May into staying in the single market, complete with free movement, it would completely crash the Conservative Party down to about 30% of the vote and give Corbyn a landslide.

    It would also see UKIP shoot back up to about 15% of the vote overnight
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    RoyalBlue said:

    If the Tories split, the Remainer wing will have most MPs initially, and so will get to keep the name, headquarters etc. However, it will have no activists, score 10% in the polls, and would be utterly decimated at the next general election.

    We would be left with about 150-200 Brexit Party MPs, facing Corbyn with a healthy majority.

    I hope that’s what Soubry and Clarke want.

    I doubt that they do. But they might also consider that would mean remaining (somehow, even though Corbyn has so far not switched the party policy to remain, but this scenario is about us staying and that causing a Tory split), which they regard as very good news, and at most 5 years under a terrible PM. A risk they probably do not want to take regardless, but plenty of voters probably do. Lacking that option, they can at least withdraw support from the government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    If Parliament rejects the deal it effectively dies, I expect in the end it will accept the deal.

    May will also not call a second referendum neither will Corbyn
    It would at least beinteresting to see Corbyn take a stand his supporters definitely do not like.
    Corbyn was always a Brexiteer in his guts
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    If the Tories split, the Remainer wing will have most MPs initially, and so will get to keep the name, headquarters etc. However, it will have no activists, score 10% in the polls, and would be utterly decimated at the next general election.

    We would be left with about 150-200 Brexit Party MPs, facing Corbyn with a healthy majority.

    I hope that’s what Soubry and Clarke want.

    Unless the Remainer wing combines with the LDs and moderate pro EU Labour MPs to form a UK version of 'En Marche'
    Won't happen. Labour people are too tribal.

    Look at the mental leaps Southam Obsever made to justify rejoining a party that thinks safe spaces should be for antisemites too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    May is putting me in mind of Richard Cromwell, caught between competing interests and without the strength among either to do anything about it.
    Except the alternative to Richard Cromwell was Charles IInd not Jeremy Corbyn
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    If the Tories split, the Remainer wing will have most MPs initially, and so will get to keep the name, headquarters etc. However, it will have no activists, score 10% in the polls, and would be utterly decimated at the next general election.

    We would be left with about 150-200 Brexit Party MPs, facing Corbyn with a healthy majority.

    I hope that’s what Soubry and Clarke want.

    Unless the Remainer wing combines with the LDs and moderate pro EU Labour MPs to form a UK version of 'En Marche'
    Won't happen. Labour people are too tribal.

    Look at the mental leaps Southam Obsever made to justify rejoining a party that thinks safe spaces should be for antisemites too.
    Not all Labour people, see the SDP
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    HYUFD said:

    Elliot said:

    If Tory rebels forced May into staying in the single market, complete with free movement, it would completely crash the Conservative Party down to about 30% of the vote and give Corbyn a landslide.

    It would also see UKIP shoot back up to about 15% of the vote overnight
    As others have said, it is more likely Mogg or Davis would lead a breakaway party. I would imagine that new party would get about 25% vs rump Tories on 20% vs Corbyn on 40%. It would truly show the Soubrys and Grieves of this world care more about the EU than they do about the country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,788
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:



    The fact Tory Brexiteers and pro single market campaigners are both supposedly plotting a revolt is in some respects good for May as she is currently the only Tory who can hold them together while Corbyn too is facing revolt from Remainers within his own party
    German history suggests that two-front wars can be problematic.

    I suspect that May will try to delay Commons votes until the autumn when the deal is finalised. Parliament will reject the deal, and we will have a second referendum on whether we should accept the deal or remain after all.

    If the nation votes to stay, the Conservative Party will lose the 2022 election. It will not be able to motivate its supporters if Brexit is abandoned.
    If Parliament rejects the deal it effectively dies, I expect in the end it will accept the deal.

    May will also not call a second referendum neither will Corbyn
    It would at least beinteresting to see Corbyn take a stand his supporters definitely do not like.
    Corbyn was always a Brexiteer in his guts
    It seems that way, yet his party and supporters seem to me to be inching toward a remain position, or at the least toward a second referendum position so that they can capitalise on Tory splits over brexit and maximise remain voting sentiment as necessary. It is totally just my own gut feeling, not based on anything, so could be way off base, but even though he probably doesn't mind Brexit happening I think he has been leader long enough to accept being pushed into a remain position if it makes him PM, and thus can at least do some things that the country needs.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,428
    edited May 2018
    Why is it every Saturday night we see Sunday papers (usually Observer and Independent on Sunday) dominated by Tory Remainers throwing their weight around (often followed up to 2-3 of the same faces week after week on the Sunday polities shows) but during the week we never hear anymore about it?

    There's a pattern emerging here...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,595
    Elliot said:

    HYUFD said:

    Elliot said:

    If Tory rebels forced May into staying in the single market, complete with free movement, it would completely crash the Conservative Party down to about 30% of the vote and give Corbyn a landslide.

    It would also see UKIP shoot back up to about 15% of the vote overnight
    As others have said, it is more likely Mogg or Davis would lead a breakaway party. I would imagine that new party would get about 25% vs rump Tories on 20% vs Corbyn on 40%. It would truly show the Soubrys and Grieves of this world care more about the EU than they do about the country.
    In such circumstances moderate Labour MPs may feel able to form a new SDP style breakaway party too with the right also split
This discussion has been closed.