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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ahead of the May local elections Prof Michael Thrasher on the

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,254
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Scott_P said:

    Second highest tidal range in the world top trumps wind though.

    Waves are concentrated wind. Turbines in the windmill poles could be more efficient than the blades themselves.

    I also saw something recently that said a lot of the offshore wind mechanics need replaced already. Very short lifespan.
    Tide is not waves. Waves are not tide. And it doesn't necessarily make sense to abandon wave power and go direct to the wind (if that is what you are suggesting) because waves capture wind energy in a form which lasts longer than the wind itself - they are natural batteries, in other words, so why not let them provide free battery storage?
    Nicely put - "natural batteries". I'm going to use that one!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Tidal lagoons are no such thing as "concentrated wind"!!!

    That's why I wrote waves, and not tidal lagoons
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Tide is not waves. Waves are not tide.

    I know

    Waves are concentrated wind. If you can extract the energy from one wave, it exceeds that which can be captured solely from the wind at the same point.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    Solar panels in convenient, tile shaped, sizes: https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

    A decade from now, all new homes will be made with solar roofs.
    Won't be cheap initially - but they are clearly a great way forward.

    The primary school next to me has been fitted with conventional solar panels over the past couple of years. They cover near enough the entire roof (on one side of the building) - so it is a substantial array. Whilst I do find the look of conventional panels to be incongruous on many residential properties, using them on public buildings seems far more appropriate - particularly as the scale means a better generation.

    One other area where I have seen them used imaginatively is in supermarket carparks in France (and I suspect elsewhere). They provide shade for the cars parked beneath them whilst also generating power.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,927

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I'm amazed how much solar generated in the UK on a March say. I presume it was sunny.
    My solar panels are a great success returning about 10 % on the investment
    So if you depreciate your asset at 10% per annum, on balance they are worthless.
    But as a pensioner my return on capital is the key as it should produce that annual return over the rest of my life. It is index linked and tax free
    It is a depreciating asset. At the end of 10 years your capital has gone, and you've got some scrap on your roof. You'd be better off investing the money at 1% return and drawing down over 10 years. Anyway that's what I think, but I hope you do well out of the investment.
    Panels usually have 20 year warranties these days.
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I'm amazed how much solar generated in the UK on a March say. I presume it was sunny.
    My solar panels are a great success returning about 10 % on the investment
    So if you depreciate your asset at 10% per annum, on balance they are worthless.
    But as a pensioner my return on capital is the key as it should produce that annual return over the rest of my life. It is index linked and tax free
    It is a depreciating asset. At the end of 10 years your capital has gone, and you've got some scrap on your roof. You'd be better off investing the money at 1% return and drawing down over 10 years. Anyway that's what I think, but I hope you do well out of the investment.
    Panels usually have 20 year warranties these days.
    Mine have
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The roof of the weighing room at Cheltenham is also covered in panels
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    Not as bad as they look on what, in their absence, would be good green south-facing pasture.
    A solar farm rIgh behind my parents garden means they won’t be getting housing there in the foreseeable future. Far less intrusive in terms of the view. :p
    I am very pro renewables, we have solar panels on our roof, but to cover fields with them is atrocious - should never be allowed planning permission. If left unchecked our 'green and pleasant' land will turn into a grey and plastic one. When did the Conservatives lose their commitment to conserve?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I'm amazed how much solar generated in the UK on a March say. I presume it was sunny.
    My solar panels are a great success returning about 10 % on the investment
    So if you depreciate your asset at 10% per annum, on balance they are worthless.
    But as a pensioner my return on capital is the key as it should produce that annual return over the rest of my life. It is index linked and tax free
    It is a depreciating asset. At the end of 10 years your capital has gone, and you've got some scrap on your roof. You'd be better off investing the money at 1% return and drawing down over 10 years. Anyway that's what I think, but I hope you do well out of the investment.
    'scrap on your roof' that's still contributing £700 pa tax free. That's the kind of scrap I like! :smile:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    It depends on the eye of the beholder, surely? They look fine to me.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,861

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:
    I'm amazed how much solar generated in the UK on a March say. I presume it was sunny.
    My solar panels are a great success returning about 10 % on the investment
    So if you depreciate your asset at 10% per annum, on balance they are worthless.
    Won't the panels still be generating electricity in year 11?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,861

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Scott_P said:

    Second highest tidal range in the world top trumps wind though.

    Waves are concentrated wind. Turbines in the windmill poles could be more efficient than the blades themselves.

    I also saw something recently that said a lot of the offshore wind mechanics need replaced already. Very short lifespan.
    Tide is not waves. Waves are not tide. And it doesn't necessarily make sense to abandon wave power and go direct to the wind (if that is what you are suggesting) because waves capture wind energy in a form which lasts longer than the wind itself - they are natural batteries, in other words, so why not let them provide free battery storage?
    Nicely put - "natural batteries". I'm going to use that one!
    I used to describe oli and gas as "stored solar"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,608

    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    It depends on the eye of the beholder, surely? They look fine to me.
    http://www.viridiansolar.co.uk/index.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    Isn't nuclear fusion going to solve all our energy problems?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2018
    Left-winger Owen Jones, attacked BBC Two programme for using 'altered image'
    Show pictured Corbyn against a 'Kremlin skyline, dressed up as a Soviet stooge'
    But Newsnight acting editor Jess Brammar denied the hat had been altered

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5513697/BBC-denies-photoshopping-Corbyn-make-look-Russian.html

    Owen should thank god they didn't pick a "Chav" Jezza picture.

    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    It depends on the eye of the beholder, surely? They look fine to me.
    On more modern properties, perhaps. But on top of a Victorian Town house (of which there are many near me in Oxford), they do look very out of place. It is all about context, I guess
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    tlg86 said:

    Isn't nuclear fusion going to solve all our energy problems?

    It's only thirty years away.

    Mind you, it was thirty years away when I was a child.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    edited March 2018

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Demand for the grid would still spike in the winter and all those houses will be needing their energy which has to come from somewhere and it won't be the solar.

    Spiking in winter, doesn't mean absent in summer. I can't immediately see any figures on the internet, but you wash yourself, clothes and dishes, hoover, watch tv, trickle charge your car and cook food all year round. In winter you heat your house, probably with oil or gas; in summer you probably don't air condition, but if you do you use electricity. And you are not generating no electricity in winter, just less. There is no basis for suggesting that solar either must do everything all year round, or is useless.
    Its not useless its just not especially useful.

    All of those again are things that you do when you are at home. Which is more likely to be in the evening or in the dark when again grid demand is at its lowest and solar is less productive or unproductive. Without battery storage when the sun shines on your home in the daytime if you're out and not using much electricity then you either waste the electricity generated or need to get it into the grid which isn't especially economical either.
    UK electricity use during the summer is circa 75% of winter. Use during the summer peaks (plateaus) during the period 08:00 - 17:00, i.e. when useful solar is produced.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    calum said:
    He's truly off his rocker isn't he?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,608
    calum said:
    This sort of talk is not helpful!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258
    calum said:
    He said: "I think they’re the stick in the muds in this and have come up with a solution that is wholly impossible for the United Kingdom to accept, that we should take Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom.

    "Why don’t we suggest to them that the Republic of Ireland comes out of the single market and customs union and accepts our regulations? It’s an equally logical suggestion."
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Sean_F said:

    Solar panels on houses look hideous.

    It depends on the eye of the beholder, surely? They look fine to me.
    On more modern properties, perhaps. But on top of a Victorian Town house (of which there are many near me in Oxford), they do look very out of place. It is all about context, I guess
    Fair point.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    tlg86 said:

    Isn't nuclear fusion going to solve all our energy problems?


    Indirectly, yes. We already have a very large fusion reactor that runs continuously, at zero cost. It's 150 million km away but provides plenty of energy, even at that distance. :smile:
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 323

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Demand for the grid would still spike in the winter and all those houses will be needing their energy which has to come from somewhere and it won't be the solar.

    Spiking in winter, doesn't mean absent in summer. I can't immediately see any figures on the internet, but you wash yourself, clothes and dishes, hoover, watch tv, trickle charge your car and cook food all year round. In winter you heat your house, probably with oil or gas; in summer you probably don't air condition, but if you do you use electricity. And you are not generating no electricity in winter, just less. There is no basis for suggesting that solar either must do everything all year round, or is useless.
    Its not useless its just not especially useful.

    All of those again are things that you do when you are at home. Which is more likely to be in the evening or in the dark when again grid demand is at its lowest and solar is less productive or unproductive. Without battery storage when the sun shines on your home in the daytime if you're out and not using much electricity then you either waste the electricity generated or need to get it into the grid which isn't especially economical either.
    UK electricity use during the summer is circa 75% of winter. Use during the summer peaks (plateaus) during the period 08:00 - 17:00, i.e. when useful solar is produced.
    Perhaps the most important reason for expanding wind, solar, biomass, fracking, and indeed nuclear, is to make us independent of Russia, and to diminish further their economic power. Hit the kleptocrats where it hurts..in the pocket
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,601
    edited March 2018
    Boost for Australian PM Malcolm Turnbull in today's South Australian state elections as his Liberal National Coalition reaches enough seats for a majority for the first time in 16 years with 60% of the vote counted

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-17/liberals-to-form-majority-government-in-sa,-abc-predicts/9559246
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,341
    tlg86 said:

    calum said:
    He said: "I think they’re the stick in the muds in this and have come up with a solution that is wholly impossible for the United Kingdom to accept, that we should take Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom.

    "Why don’t we suggest to them that the Republic of Ireland comes out of the single market and customs union and accepts our regulations? It’s an equally logical suggestion."
    The problem with that 'witty' turning of the tables is that it suggests that this proposition is something that the etiolated Etonian just made up for the purposes of smartarsery, whereas it's something that various goons have been seriously suggesting since before Brexit.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    https://twitter.com/TomSpeed420/status/974547624731729925
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Only the morning star will be allowed in corbyistan
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2018


    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....

    Never mind that dear old Seumas is a massive fan of the genocidal maniac Stalin.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806
    Scott_P said:
    What a difference a year makes, in sport and politics.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    One of the few good things about students is that eventually they do grow up.

    Unlike Corbyn who seems to have stopped evolving more than 40 years ago
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806
    Scott_P said:
    Nothing like the people's army of Corbynania, but given people have been expecting below 100k I guess it's good?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Scott_P said:
    Who would have thought that a party on 42%ish of the vote might actually attract more members....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    You wish :wink:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806


    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.

    Surely not - on what basis would they be angry? Genuinely puzzled here.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2018
    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    kle4 said:


    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.

    Surely not - on what basis would they be angry? Genuinely puzzled here.
    They are members of Jezza for PM - they clearly have no rational reasoning skills.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2018
    kle4 said:


    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.

    Surely not - on what basis would they be angry? Genuinely puzzled here.
    Apparently she isn't taking this seriously enough. The cult are f##king bonkers.

    https://twitter.com/JeremyCorbyn4PM/status/975013636186947585
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806

    kle4 said:


    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.

    Surely not - on what basis would they be angry? Genuinely puzzled here.
    They are members of Jezza for PM - they clearly have no rational reasoning skills.
    In all but the most extreme of situations I would like to think I can see the reasoning behind different points of view, on the basis that few people are actually downright irrational. I see FU shows it is because they don't think she is taking things seriously, which I suppose is a reason, but even charitably not a convincing one, or even one I think many ardent opponents of the Tories could genuinely hold, as it is far too silly.
  • Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    You wish :wink:
    Boris gone on full attack against Putin tonight and singling out Corbyn as the only person in the HOC aiding the Russian propagangda. It is commonly accepted he has taken a hit.

    The next weeks and months will be interesting but who would have thought just a few weeks ago that Theresa May is now in a stronger place than ever, people giving her flowers and applause, and photos in the papers of her holding the new born of a couple who have just bought their first home aided by the governments scheme.

    Events dear boy, events
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    https://twitter.com/TomSpeed420/status/974547624731729925
    These psychos genuinely think the BBC and Russia Today are equivalent. God forbid they ever get in charge of the country.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,254
    kle4 said:


    I notice that the Jezza for PM Facebook account is busy getting very angry that May fist bumped a member of the public, when the member of the public put their fist out i.e. indicating they would like to do so.

    Surely not - on what basis would they be angry? Genuinely puzzled here.
    They must think she was simply punching a member of the public.... Bastard Tories.

    (Of course, when John Prescott actually DID punch a member of the public, that was like, so cool....)
  • glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    And been completely anonymous throughout this crisis and she is shadow home secretary last time I looked

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    There is always going to be a market for taking a contrary view, particularly when people deeply dislike government in general (and in some cases this government particularly). And as the compliance of Labour MPs since the GE shows, I think, most internal opponents have no issue anymore (or at least none they can muster up support for) for his general performance or policies, even if they don't like all parts of all of them. Foreign affairs might restrict his support a bit more to the core, plus some contrarians (even though we're told Corbyn's opposition accept the government view), but is surely fleeting in its impact, he won't be 'seen through' as a result.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993
    kle4 said:

    In all but the most extreme of situations I would like to think I can see the reasoning behind different points of view, on the basis that few people are actually downright irrational.

    I've given up trying to understand online Trump fans. They are either nuts, trolls, or Russians. The chickens are coming home to roost, and yet Trump fans seem to think Trump has played a blinder in recent weeks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806
    Kyle_Knox said:

    Hmm. It would be really interesting to analyze how the local elections of various boroughs performed over the decades. I always look at the Wikipedias National Electoral Calendar and, equally interestingly, Local Electoral Calendar and I have noticed that with the former type of elections, the information tends to be significantly more limited and erratic. For instance, no information about many of the candidates; no information about the political climate, no nothing. Having this type of information would make it possible for research and analyze how moods in the national politics affect moods in local scene, especially in regards of safe seats.

    Furthermore, what will also be interesting to see how the voting patterns change with the changing ethnicity of the borough. It seems to be conventional wisdom that the more immigrants there are in a borough, the better Labour performs.

    But what about the Far-Right? Do they tend to perform better as well (relatively speaking)? That is an interesting question indeed.


    P. S., I am a new blogger and I blog about Politics, Economics and Society. I would greatly appreciate if you checked out my blog: http://www.kyleknox.co.uk

    I like the design - sleek, and simple.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Boris gone on full attack against Putin tonight and singling out Corbyn as the only person in the HOC aiding the Russian propagangda. It is commonly accepted he has taken a hit.

    The next weeks and months will be interesting but who would have thought just a few weeks ago that Theresa May is now in a stronger place than ever, people giving her flowers and applause, and photos in the papers of her holding the new born of a couple who have just bought their first home aided by the governments scheme.

    Boris Johnson is a thoroughly loose cannon. Nobody knows whether he is speaking on behalf of the Government,on behalf of himself (with a seriously thought-out position) or just making things up.

    He is a seriously liabilty to the country, The PB Tories ought to recognise that he is a liability to the Conservative Party as well.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    And been completely anonymous throughout this crisis and she is shadow home secretary last time I looked

    Busy working on that plan for 250k extra police at £1 a go...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    Your mate Murray just been given 15 mins airtime on 5 Live. Sounded very rational
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    You wish :wink:
    Boris gone on full attack against Putin tonight and singling out Corbyn as the only person in the HOC aiding the Russian propagangda. It is commonly accepted he has taken a hit.

    /blockquote>
    Yes, it would seem so. That there's been back and forth on how his view didn't differ from the government (thus making the attacks on him silly since his statement was apparently so similar to the governments) to that his view does differ (thus showing his purportedly more grown up approach) demonstrates, I think, that there was clearly a perception issue his spinners decided needed to be addressed. But then he always had weaknesses in foreign affairs not entirely countered by being able to say 'I got Iraq right', and it was when full throated attacks were made that they seemed to lose impact, or not overcome his appeal elsewhere (or dislike of the Tories elsewhere).
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    edited March 2018

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    Your mate Murray just been given 15 mins airtime on 5 Live. Sounded very rational
    Sounding and being are two very different things
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761


    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    Your mate Murray just been given 15 mins airtime on 5 Live. Sounded very rational
    Sounding and being are two very different things
    They had another bloke on who more or less agreed with him too. It wasn't me
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2018
    C

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    Your mate Murray just been given 15 mins airtime on 5 Live. Sounded very rational
    THe same man who claimed russia had nothing to do with the hacking of Clinton’s emails....

    If you want to believe a wikileaks stooge with a record of making false claims and coming up with mad conspiracy theories that is up to you.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    And been completely anonymous throughout this crisis and she is shadow home secretary last time I looked

    If only our defence secretary had taken a leaf from the Abbott playbook.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844


    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Thing is, as with the tory attack video of GE17, it makes him look fecking cool. Put it on a t shirt and you'd sell 100000s of them to the sort of students who have Che posters on the wall.

    The conspiracy theories around using what is clearly just a soft-focused image of their leader
    wearing a hat that he actually wore in that photo are just hilarious.

    Suggests to me that the cultists have realised that this is the week that Britain has seen through Corbz...
    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.
    Your mate Murray just been given 15 mins airtime on 5 Live. Sounded very rational
    Sounding and being are two very different things
    They had another bloke on who more or less agreed with him too. It wasn't me
    What is the point of having two people on who agree on point under discussion? It doesn't make for a good debate - unless, of course, you are trying to promote a specific agenda. And the BBC would never do that...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Total false equivalence...as we are talking about hard science. for the record I was against the Iraq war.
  • John_M said:

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    And been completely anonymous throughout this crisis and she is shadow home secretary last time I looked

    If only our defence secretary had taken a leaf from the Abbott playbook.
    He is young, callow and learning his trade (and silly) - Abbott is not and should have been on the media in her position
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Total false equivalence...as we are talking about hard science. for the record I was against the Iraq war.
    But how did you view people who thought Iraq had no WMD??
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "50 million Facebook profiles harvested for Cambridge Analytica in major data breach

    Whistleblower describes how firm linked to former Trump adviser Steve Bannon compiled user data to target American voters

    How Cambridge Analytica’s algorithms turned ‘likes’ into a political tool"

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/cambridge-analytica-facebook-influence-us-election
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Total false equivalence...as we are talking about hard science. for the record I was against the Iraq war.
    But how did you view people who thought Iraq had no WMD??
    We are arguing about if the uk top scientists (and the fact the creator of this nerve agent is now American citizen and can help) could detect this nerve agent from provided samples . If you believe this is false you are beyond help.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Anyone got any notionals for Birmingham?
  • glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    https://twitter.com/TomSpeed420/status/974547624731729925
    oh - that is too funny for words
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    FU what hard science. Why does the Government keep using the same phrase "of the type developed in Russia" even in the response to Murray on 5 live saying that's all they can say they issued a response using the exact same phrase. This Murray guy could be a nutter as you say but Why don't they say it was made in or sent by or any other phrase??? It makes him look plausible.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Unfortunately for the Russians state-of-the-art chemical forensics can identify in some cases right down to the production batch, never mind the precursors, processes, and plant. I suspect the UK has quitely put a lot of effort into such a capability since the Litvinenko murder.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    glw said:

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Unfortunately for the Russians state-of-the-art chemical forensics can identify in some cases right down to the production batch, never mind the precursors, processes, and plant. I suspect the UK has quitely put a lot of effort into such a capability since the Litvinenko murder.
    Of the type developed in Russia
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    saddo said:

    marke09 said:

    For the first time since the general election May’s net approval rating (-9%) is better than Corbyn’s (-10%).

    More than two-fifths of voters (43%) say May has the best interests of the country at heart compared with 39% who say Corbyn has. Thirty-two percent say the prime minister is able to stand up for Britain’s interests against 28% who believe Corbyn is.

    Still pretty high numbers for Agent Cob given his public pro Russian position
    I think May is having a good week because her stock in trade of sober statements is what is seen to be needed, rather than the flashier talents needed in elections. Also, the Tories are taking a breather from knifing each other in public. But people who like Corbyn aren't greatly deterred by another round of red scare allegations, as these figures show.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    seriously? She did that?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
    Of the type developed in Russia
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Floater said:

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    seriously? She did that?
    Yes. It was on Thursday. The journo tweeted it out and it was posted on here.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited March 2018

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
    Of the type developed in Russia
    You should add prison planet to list of alternative news websites you visit. You will like it over there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,254

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Total false equivalence...as we are talking about hard science. for the record I was against the Iraq war.
    But how did you view people who thought Iraq had no WMD??
    I believed the lack of evidence of WMD supported Iraq not having them. It's ambivalence on whether they did was to aimed at suggesting to Iran that they might still have them.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993

    Why don't they say it was made in or sent by or any other phrase??? It makes him look plausible.

    1. We don't want the Russians to know our forensic capabilities. 2. We may well have an intelligence source that needs to be protected. e.g. Letting us know what goes into the plant, and where it was sourced.
  • Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    https://twitter.com/TomSpeed420/status/974547624731729925
    oh - that is too funny for words
    To be honest there does seem to be an air of panic around the Corbynista's
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2018
    Kyle_Knox said:

    Hmm. It would be really interesting to analyze how the local elections of various boroughs performed over the decades. I always look at the Wikipedias National Electoral Calendar and, equally interestingly, Local Electoral Calendar and I have noticed that with the former type of elections, the information tends to be significantly more limited and erratic. For instance, no information about many of the candidates; no information about the political climate, no nothing. Having this type of information would make it possible for research and analyze how moods in the national politics affect moods in local scene, especially in regards of safe seats.

    Furthermore, what will also be interesting to see how the voting patterns change with the changing ethnicity of the borough. It seems to be conventional wisdom that the more immigrants there are in a borough, the better Labour performs.

    But what about the Far-Right? Do they tend to perform better as well (relatively speaking)? That is an interesting question indeed.


    P. S., I am a new blogger and I blog about Politics, Economics and Society. I would greatly appreciate if you checked out my blog: http://www.kyleknox.co.uk

    We follow local elections very closely at the VoteUK discussion forum. New members are always welcome to join.

    http://www.vote-2012.proboards.com

    The far-right haven't contested any local by-elections for a long time, and hardly contest any seats at the May elections. At the 2017 general election there were only 8 BNP candidates.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Seriously can anyone find a Government quote that says anything more than of a type developed in Russia.

    I drink vodka of a type developed in Russia (made in Warrington)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,254
    Floater said:

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    seriously? She did that?
    I'm not sure she answered - the Chair of the meeting said it wasn't appropriate for Abbot to answer any questions....

    ....because she knows fuck all about anything.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,549
    AndyJS said:

    Kyle_Knox said:

    Hmm. It would be really interesting to analyze how the local elections of various boroughs performed over the decades. I always look at the Wikipedias National Electoral Calendar and, equally interestingly, Local Electoral Calendar and I have noticed that with the former type of elections, the information tends to be significantly more limited and erratic. For instance, no information about many of the candidates; no information about the political climate, no nothing. Having this type of information would make it possible for research and analyze how moods in the national politics affect moods in local scene, especially in regards of safe seats.

    Furthermore, what will also be interesting to see how the voting patterns change with the changing ethnicity of the borough. It seems to be conventional wisdom that the more immigrants there are in a borough, the better Labour performs.

    But what about the Far-Right? Do they tend to perform better as well (relatively speaking)? That is an interesting question indeed.


    P. S., I am a new blogger and I blog about Politics, Economics and Society. I would greatly appreciate if you checked out my blog: http://www.kyleknox.co.uk

    We follow local elections very closely at the VoteUK discussion forum. New members are always welcome to join.

    http://www.vote-2012.proboards.com

    The far-right haven't contested any local by-elections for a long time, and hardly contest any seats at the May elections. At the 2017 general election there were only 8 BNP candidates.
    There was a BNP councillor in Leics about a decade ago, but more recently only Kippers, and they look to be near extinct after May.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,254

    Seriously can anyone find a Government quote that says anything more than of a type developed in Russia.

    I drink vodka of a type developed in Russia (made in Warrington)

    Don't be so inane.
  • glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
    Of the type developed in Russia
    This is desperate stuff by Corbyn's supporters. He called it wrong, has been found out, and ironically strengthened Theresa May.

    Also the IRA, Hamas etc could be described as a long time ago but this is now and in real time for Corbyn and momentum, and it will follow them all the way to the next election
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    Seriously can anyone find a Government quote that says anything more than of a type developed in Russia.

    I drink vodka of a type developed in Russia (made in Warrington)

    Do you really want the Government to reveal such sensitive details to the public?? Are you that naive?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,806
    edited March 2018

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
    Of the type developed in Russia
    As I noted yesterday, Mr Murray's stretching of that particular phrase into something which requires a vast conspiracy, then his dragging up of Israel for no discernable reason as though Russia as a suspect had no reason behind it, and his own logical failings in at one stage pointing to the OPCW as a source of truth and then implying that we were going to stitch p a fix through them, thereby discrediting any outcome he doesn't like, were not compelling.

    There are many things we cannot know about this, and uncertainties, and skepticism is a healthy trait, but the leaps and bounds of logic, and the assumptions without evidence or motivation that need to take place, are far more on the 'it could have been Israel, or the USA losing control of things'(as the other chap you linked to suggested) than on the 'highly likely' to be Russia side.

    And relying so heavily on a very intense interpretation of a single phrase as though that breaks down every other factor involved, and as noted as Mr Murray does stretching it out into a conspiracy, is where it crosses the line into very shoddy reasoning.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Total false equivalence...as we are talking about hard science. for the record I was against the Iraq war.
    But how did you view people who thought Iraq had no WMD??
    Who would have thought a pm would lie about such a serious thing?

    But it was a very new Labour thing to do in hindsight
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    glw said:

    Not by the looks of my Facebook feed...stupid amount of people arguing nonsense like how would our scientists know what this nerve agent is, if it has never been made outside of Russia.

    That's such a stupid argument. You'd never be able to discover anything if that was the case.
    It is Alex jones level of conspiracy theory.
    I bet you thought those who advocated Iraq had no WMDs were nutters though at the time of Blair's illegal war.
    Bit different this time. A chemical attack has taken place and Porton Down identify it as a military grade nerve gas only produced by Russia.

    The other reported act is that the National Security Advisors did not give Corbyn access to the full detail given to Theresa May as he is seen as a risk to National security.

    As far as Boris is concerned I think he is acting with TM's authority as they both must know the details of the nerve agent origin
    Of the type developed in Russia
    You should add prison planet to list of alternative news websites you visit. You will like it over there.
    So you don't have an answer to why of a type developed in Russia is the only phrase they use? The only one the UK uses France uses and US uses. You are 100% certain of a type developed by Russia means Russia actually did this and Murray doesn't have a point about the use of this phrase??
  • saddo said:

    marke09 said:

    For the first time since the general election May’s net approval rating (-9%) is better than Corbyn’s (-10%).

    More than two-fifths of voters (43%) say May has the best interests of the country at heart compared with 39% who say Corbyn has. Thirty-two percent say the prime minister is able to stand up for Britain’s interests against 28% who believe Corbyn is.

    Still pretty high numbers for Agent Cob given his public pro Russian position
    I think May is having a good week because her stock in trade of sober statements is what is seen to be needed, rather than the flashier talents needed in elections. Also, the Tories are taking a breather from knifing each other in public. But people who like Corbyn aren't greatly deterred by another round of red scare allegations, as these figures show.
    Fair comment as so often Nick, but Corbyn cannot get into power by the people who like him. He has to gain conservative voters especially in middle England and right now he is repelling them
  • Floater said:

    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Am loving Hat-gate.

    Right wing, Beeb-bashing loons are now learning how they sound to normal people.

    what on earth is hat gate?
    I think it is Owen Jones complaining that Newsnight made Corbyn look too much like a Russian stooge by showing an image of him wearing a hat
    Yes it was the hat, not the repeated parroting of Russian talking points.
    Perish the thought that a man who spent a holiday touring East Germany with Diane Abbott might have any interest in or sympathies for the former Soviet bloc....
    It was quite incredible that Abbott told journos to f##k off when asked about Russia...she isn't some z-list celeb being doorstepped outside a nightclub at 3am, she is a leading politician and is expected to respond to major events.
    seriously? She did that?
    Yes
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