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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The main initial change that Ashcroft’s poll could produce

SystemSystem Posts: 11,736
edited September 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The main initial change that Ashcroft’s poll could produce is an easing of EdM’s position

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    First!
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT @anotherdave

    I thought you were arguing that gays should be satisfied with civil partnerships because marriage confers no extra legal rights.

    If I have misunderstood your position then I apologise. But stand by my views in respect of people who do adopt that position.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2013
    Yes it could do OGH. But McBride's book provides the bullets for the media during the Conference season. If there is a narrowing of the polls due to other factors, then McBrides poison has something to feast on.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Yes, Ashcroft's poll is good news for the #SaveEd campaign, and hence Tory prospects at the next election.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    edited September 2013
    OT. I've just watched an interview with Paddy A. He would always have made it onto my top ten list of politicians but not anymore. He's just a bloated Nick Clegg.

    When did Mr Honourable turn into Mr Sanctimonious?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,436
    edited September 2013
    Roger said:

    OT. I've just watched an interview with Paddy A. He would always have made it onto my top ten list of politicians but not anymore. He's just a bloated Nick Clegg.

    When did Mr Honourable turn into Mr Sanctimonious?

    As so often happens, when the transformation from Mr Honourable to Lord Sanctimonious took place.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Ashcroft Poll Con/Lab marginals

    All voters

    Labour lead on Education =14%
    Labour lead on NHS = 32%

    2010 Lib Dems

    Labour lead on Education 22%
    Labour lead on NHS 44%

    Michael Gove on Education and Cameron's NHS reorganisation lies have proved to be a huge boost for Labour among swing voters in marginal seats

    I am glad that you acknowledge that it is Labour and the unions lies about Michael Gove's reforms in education and the NHS reorganisation that have boosted their support
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    tim said:

    Ashcroft Poll Con/Lab marginals

    All voters

    Labour lead on Education =14%
    Labour lead on NHS = 32%

    2010 Lib Dems

    Labour lead on Education 22%
    Labour lead on NHS 44%

    Michael Gove on Education and Cameron's NHS reorganisation lies have proved to be a huge boost for Labour among swing voters in marginal seats

    Wee-Timmy,

    What is the purpose son? 'Timmies-Top-Trumps' sounds like some 'Eighties kids programme so you must have some reason, no...?

    Your obsession with those who post when Labour are doing badly* is only matched when you post fervantly about "good-news" polls for Labour. The fact that you do not see your confliction leads me to believe that there are not enough Latvian care-workers to admit your prescribed medication!

    Grow-up, please....

    * YouGov and other purveyors of "opinion"....
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    Lib Dem councillors by 2 to 1 would prefer a coalition with Labour rather than with the Conservatives according to a poll taken before their conference. Difficult to see a scenario where the Tories aren't f*cked whatever anyone thinks of Miliband
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Roger said:

    Lib Dem councillors by 2 to 1 would prefer a coalition with Labour rather than with the Conservatives according to a poll taken before their conference. Difficult to see a scenario where the Tories aren't f*cked whatever anyone thinks of Miliband

    Should imagine it was the same before the 2010 GE - guess what happened next..
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    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 5h
    Euan Blair 25/1 with William Hill to become an MP by end of 2020; 100/1 ever to become PM.

    Nice odds, even if the time-frame isn't.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    tim said:

    Ashcroft Poll Con/Lab marginals

    All voters

    Labour lead on Education =14%
    Labour lead on NHS = 32%

    2010 Lib Dems

    Labour lead on Education 22%
    Labour lead on NHS 44%

    Michael Gove on Education and Cameron's NHS reorganisation lies have proved to be a huge boost for Labour among swing voters in marginal seats

    I see the non-stop ramping of an out of date poll continues with ever more absurd and meaningless extrapolations. I wonder what you'll say when a poll gives a different view oh wait we know "idiot pbhodgestoriesuncletom cobleys and all etc, etc, etc.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    To be more serious - surely some of the sane left of centre voters have to be concerned that Labour may come to power in 2015 on the basis of 'we're not Tories' without so much of a shadow of an idea of how to run the country.
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    CaveatCaveat Posts: 15
    edited September 2013
    What proportion of 2010 LDs will eventually stay at home in 2015, now being unwilling to vote for 'they're all the same really'?

    'We're different from either of THEM!' was a key LD differentiator - now that's gone.

    And you can certain that Clegg's continued enthusiasm for the (failed) EU and even the (catastrophically failed) Euro will be made over and over and over again.

    'We know the job's only part done. We're sorry for the delay - those pesky LDs wouldn't allow us to make the changes (cuts) in public sector staff that we all KNOW are essential. Those people take YOUR taxes - and do little that's useful. Noticed local services collapsing despite 25% staffing cuts?

    So, electorate, if you want the country to be sorted out by 2020, you'll have no more truck with LibDemmery (aka The Sandalistas) in your lifetime.'

    As for the champagne form of socialism - well Notting Hill Marxist millionaire's sons may possibly have their place in society - just not anywhere near Downing St.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    felix said:

    To be more serious - surely some of the sane left of centre voters have to be concerned that Labour may come to power in 2015 on the basis of 'we're not Tories' without so much of a shadow of an idea of how to run the country.

    @JohnRentoul: Ow. It hurts. Only 30% of *Labour* voters say EdM wd be "best in a crisis"; only 20% "most statesmanlike": YouGov http://t.co/T0g9v0duTa
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    Why is nobody calling for Lynton Crosby's scalp. He's been in the job for nearly a year and look what Ashcroft’s polling has found
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    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    look what Ashcroft’s polling has found

    @RobWilson_RDG
    @LordAshcroft poll confirms that a vote for #UKIP is a vote for Ed Miliband as Prime Minister and a Labour Govt!
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085

    Why is nobody calling for Lynton Crosby's scalp. He's been in the job for nearly a year and look what Ashcroft’s polling has found

    He's the Wizard of Oz, dontcha know. He might be the wrong choice but you can't keep changing your advisers. Look what happened to Brown. It was like a revolving door in No.10.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085
    Secondly it's clear the weight of opinion in the Tory Party, certainly on the backbenches, is behind Crosby. They'd much rather die in a ditch for him than Pinko Hilton.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,976
    @Felix

    "surely some of the sane left of centre voters have to be concerned that Labour may come to power in 2015 on the basis of 'we're not Tories' without so much of a shadow of an idea of how to run the country."

    I'm sure they will but probably not as much as the country thought it in 2010 when they voted in the Tories presided over by two Bullingdon Boys with no experience other than trashing restaurants and only one of two members of the Shadow Cabinet with any ministerial experience at all.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085
    tim said:

    Why is nobody calling for Lynton Crosby's scalp. He's been in the job for nearly a year and look what Ashcroft’s polling has found

    The Tories haven't worked out he's a UKIP plant yet
    What about a Boris plant? Crosby leads the Tories to defeat in 2015 and then runs Boris' campaign in the subsequent Tory leadership election?
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited September 2013
    @Mike - Right, you mean fire the chap who has helped us reduce the margin (in the serious polls) from 10% in April to 5% now? Yeah, good one; indeed one of your best.

    And, as I asked yesterday night, when have these marginal seat polls (sample around 400 in each!) ever proved accurate even the ones taken during the election campaign itself?

    Polling in individual seats is notoriously problematic and there's every reason to suppose that 400 x 40 to create a "mega-poll" will yield similarly potentially flawed conclusions. How I wish my old chum, Robert Waller, was still posting here to place this poll in a proper context.

    But I agree that it might relieve some of the pressure on Ed (not that he was in any great danger anyway).
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited September 2013

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    LoL. For goodness sake.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Ashcroft Poll Con/Lab marginals

    All voters

    Labour lead on Education =14%
    Labour lead on NHS = 32%

    2010 Lib Dems

    Labour lead on Education 22%
    Labour lead on NHS 44%

    Michael Gove on Education and Cameron's NHS reorganisation lies have proved to be a huge boost for Labour among swing voters in marginal seats

    I am glad that you acknowledge that it is Labour and the unions lies about Michael Gove's reforms in education and the NHS reorganisation that have boosted their support

    Dim comment.
    I and a few others, have been telling you for years that Goves centralisation was a recruiting serjeant for Labour among 2010 Lib Dems.
    And as for Camerons deeply personal lies over the NHS reorganisation, well the polling speaks for itself.


    A reminder of his stance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH2EmVGowCk
    A completely correct comment. You just don't like it because it highlights the fact that your side's lead is built on a farrago of lies

    Gove is devolving power to the individual schools. He has had, in the process, to pull certain powers back to the centre to ensure that the reforms an get through. If local education authorities were more willing to co-operate with the democratically elected government to get Parliament's wishes implemented then may be this would be necessary.

    On the NHS piece you posted what Cameron actually said was "no more pointless reorganisations that aim for change but instead bring chaos". The reorganisation was very clear in its intention to give power back to the GPs as the primary caregivers (someone muddled up by the LD insistence on including hospitals). This was about real change, not "aiming for change". And the second part of the statement? I don't see any chaos going on. (And don't bother posting about A&E - that's about the old tricks on reporting times that the NHS used under Labour being called out).

    Most people have limited direct experience of the NHS workings or the free schools (especially as the changes are so new). Their beliefs arise from what they are told. And these are often lies. ("90 days to save the NHS" "Don't let the Tories privatise the NHS" etc)

    It may work, but they are still lies

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    @Mike - the on the ground operation is surely the responsibility of Shapps? Looking at the Ashcroft poll, the Conservatives appear to be putting more effort into direct mail (15 vs 11 in Lab target, 18 vs 15 in Lib Dem) vs door knocking (9 vs 12, 12 vs 14) - the effectiveness of which I guess we'll find out in 2015. The real lesson is the Tories are learning on how to improve their chances. Are Labour and the Lib Dems?
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    JohnO said:

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    LoL. For goodness sake.
    Oh dear. I thought better of you John.

    Nothing should get in the way of the everything's fine in the blue garden narrative.

    Remember the old rule - the more you think a poll is rubbish is in direct proportion to how much you dislike the findings.

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085
    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Roger said:

    @Felix

    "surely some of the sane left of centre voters have to be concerned that Labour may come to power in 2015 on the basis of 'we're not Tories' without so much of a shadow of an idea of how to run the country."

    I'm sure they will but probably not as much as the country thought it in 2010 when they voted in the Tories presided over by two Bullingdon Boys with no experience other than trashing restaurants and only one of two members of the Shadow Cabinet with any ministerial experience at all.

    .....and Labour's only experience is that of trashing the country.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013

    Why is nobody calling for Lynton Crosby's scalp. He's been in the job for nearly a year and look what Ashcroft’s polling has found

    Lord Ashcroft is certainly calling Lynton Crosby's scalp.

    His financing of serial mega-polls is a cry from the political wilderness against the injustice of exclusion and a rail against all his replacements.

    As he wrote in The Mirror in July:

    According to minister Michael Fallon, Crosby has made the Conservatives “focus on the issues that really matter to people”. Good for him.

    But why pay someone to do that when they can read my polls – for free?


    Ashcroft is a good man but he shares with Vince Cable an exaggerated sense of his self worth and importance.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    His personal unpopularity you mean? (although if I recall the usual polls are on who should be next leader & I'd put a lot of that down to Joe Public not knowing or caring who he is).

    Additionally he is quite a marmite politician. He doesn't come across particularly well on TV, he sometimes appears to suggest he is smarter than the average bear, etc. But he has done a good job of implementing change.

    The alleged unpopularity of the policy (don't recall any specific polling) is more down to lies told by its opponents.
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    Charles said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    The alleged unpopularity of the policy (don't recall any specific polling) is more down to lies told by its opponents.
    Doesn't really matter why its unpopular does it? Or indeed if the unpopularity is based on his opponents lies?

    If the lies are believed, that tells us something - mainly Gove 'must do better'......

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    Why is nobody calling for Lynton Crosby's scalp. He's been in the job for nearly a year and look what Ashcroft’s polling has found

    Crosby has put the Tories in their comfort zone. That is an achievement of sorts given how divided they looked just a few months ago. At least a Tory campaign focused on scaring UKIPers back to the fold will be conviction-led. Tory positioning in the centre always looks false. Crosby's main problem, though, is one that has faced the Tories for 20 years or so - not enough people like them enough to vote for them. And in tacking rightwards, the Tories only end up motivating the anti-Tories. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's of their own making, but that's where they are. You can't blame Crosby for that. And EdM may just save the day.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,060
    edited September 2013
    Labour ahead on the key question in these marginals - economy and jobs...

    There is a magic money tree as far as enough of our nation is concerned...

    Unreal but hey there you go, people thought for years Brown was a good chancellor when actually he was a wanton spender and spinner after the first term wore off.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited September 2013
    @Mike - You old charmer - I'll conclude you've recently completed an exceptionally good Sunday lunch! And while the fare was sumptious, the drink.....

    Are you still capable of answering my point about the difficulties of individual constituency polling and their aggregation? If so, now's your chance.

    Bedraggled disreputable pol (local variety, like you and 30 years 'experience') that I am, ALL mid-term polls are taken lightly, but some, like this one are taken very lightly indeed.

    But, since you ask, I'm more confident at the moment about winning all my GE bets with tim, than at almost any timne since they were first agreed.
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    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    Effective initial reform of the UK education system. Much work remains to be done, until the disaster that was the nationalisation of Education in 1944 is completely undone.

    It's simple and irrefutable - anything that's nationalised and run by politicians is worse than competing private firms providing the same service.

    Anywhere, any time in history.

    The problem with UK education (2010) was that the basic purpose of educating anyone - to make them employable in the society of the time - had been completely forgotten. Hence we import millions of educated-abroad people to work at everything from brain surgery to sprout picking.

    Meanwhile, we, ourselves, educate the elite from around the world - in our PRIVATE, fee-paying (often boarding) schools.

    Which indicates what should be the model for the education of ALL children in the UK from 2015, rather than the utterly discredited Soviet-era education and examination systems we had had imposed on our children by 2010.

    The suggestion that a higher percentage of candidates should get the top grades in 2010 a.d. than in 1910 (or even 2010 BC!) is absurd: human evolution of IQ simply does not work that quickly.

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    Lefties and L/D's calling for Crosby's scalp... ya gorra larf..
    They just don't get it...very funny
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,085

    Lefties and L/D's calling for Crosby's scalp... ya gorra larf..
    They just don't get it...very funny

    I've no desire to see the Tories get rid of Crosby. It's up to you guys ultimately.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    The alleged unpopularity of the policy (don't recall any specific polling) is more down to lies told by its opponents.
    Doesn't really matter why its unpopular does it? Or indeed if the unpopularity is based on his opponents lies?

    If the lies are believed, that tells us something - mainly Gove 'must do better'......

    Yes, but it does undermine the argument "it's unpopular therefore it's wrong". Most change is unpopular
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Caveat said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    It's simple and irrefutable - anything that's nationalised and run by politicians is worse than competing private firms providing the same service.

    Anywhere, any time in history.

    There are certain natural monopolies that are better provided by the state.

    Air traffic control, for instance.

    But Mandy sold that one...
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    It's over a week old already and that takes no account of the problems with polling marginals. It's clearly a polling event for those who want a govt led by Miliband with no sign of a policy or a semblance of acceptance of the need for continued austerity to avoid a slide back to disaster.

    I suspect the polls have a lot of changes to go through before we have any real sense of what will happen in 2015. I also seriously doubt how many people would actually vote for Miliband even if the vote was next week.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Charles said:

    Caveat said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?

    It's simple and irrefutable - anything that's nationalised and run by politicians is worse than competing private firms providing the same service.

    Anywhere, any time in history.

    There are certain natural monopolies that are better provided by the state.

    Air traffic control, for instance.

    But Mandy sold that one...
    Charles

    Air traffic control, whether provided directly or by contract, is unnecessary intrusion by the state into the lives of its citizens.

    A true libertarian party would abolish it altogether.

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    Roger said:

    I'm sure they will but probably not as much as the country thought it in 2010 when they voted in the Tories presided over by two Bullingdon Boys with no experience other than trashing restaurants and only one of two members of the Shadow Cabinet with any ministerial experience at all.

    Well, that happens with democracy. What was the combined experience of Blair's first cabinet in 1997?
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    Charles said:

    Caveat said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?


    It's simple and irrefutable - anything that's nationalised and run by politicians is worse than competing private firms providing the same service.

    Anywhere, any time in history.

    There are certain natural monopolies that are better provided by the state.

    Air traffic control, for instance.

    But Mandy sold that one...
    Only since the cost of providing that service is a trivial part of the cost of a plane ticket.
    The State should get out of controlling airport capacity, just as in C19th Britain: the company has the right to buy and build whatever it likes - paying compensation to those affected.

    A recent report said that LHR3 would provide sufficient capacity for LHR until 2040.

    ROTFLMAO - if LHR3 opened tomorrow it would be running at capacity by next weekend.

    London needs a 10-12 runway capacity hub airport - with 6 runways open now. That would drive down landing fees, lead to the abolition of the hated APD and attract passengers and revenue from the whole world, with the new airport Europe's 'super-hub'.

    Of course, Heathrow cannot expand to anything like the capacity required - a problem stemming back to the central planners who chose the site as 'London airport' in 1947 (or so0.

    Yet another example of central planning screwing up - had each London-area airdrome been privatised and allowed to expand and compete with its rivals on a 'do what you like - we'll back your right to buy land and build on it' we'd not be in our current capacity-strangled mess, where demand is perhaps 3-4x supply and guaranteed landing-slots are worth more than the airlines leasing (owning?) them.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited September 2013
    The Bavarian regional election is taking place today, a week before the German federal election. Official page:

    http://www.landtagswahl2013.bayern.de/index.html
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    felix said:

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    It's over a week old already and that takes no account of the problems with polling marginals. It's clearly a polling event for those who want a govt led by Miliband with no sign of a policy or a semblance of acceptance of the need for continued austerity to avoid a slide back to disaster.

    I suspect the polls have a lot of changes to go through before we have any real sense of what will happen in 2015. I also seriously doubt how many people would actually vote for Miliband even if the vote was next week.

    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    FPT @DavidL "And where would you find a credible witness in Gordon Brown's Downing Street operation?"
    @SimonStClaire "Last word on the subject – I doubt we shall ever find one, I doubt such an animal exists."

    Sir Gus O'Donnell.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited September 2013
    Labor have retaken the lead in McEwen by 97 votes. There are still apparently about 9,000 postal votes to be counted:

    http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDivisionFirstPrefs-17496-226.htm
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    I've been having a look through the good Lord's poll and it is quite nice to have something with so much data. I wish he told us a bit more about the methodology though:

    1) Which company or companies did the fieldwork (he must have subcontracted out surely)?
    2) Where did he get the sample from? For a constituency like Gloucester it would be reasonably easy to just pick numbers at random out of the white pages if you wanted but in Brighton how do you make sure you just get people in Kemptown and not in Pavilion?
    3) Were all the constituencies in field for the whole field period or was it that they did 5 a week say?

    Some comments on the data:

    - Overall this is great news for Labour as they would gain all 32 Lab/Con seats + Watford and Camborne from 3rd place.
    - The UKIP figures tend to fit with the local elections e.g. their best score in the Lab/Con marginals is in Lincoln
    - If you look at the weighting in the Lab/Con file people voting Labour in 2010 are weighted down slightly while people voting Labour now are weighted up slightly. This suggests that a lot of the swing to Labour is from younger age groups who are massively weighted up (due to mobile only households)
    - It is noticeable that there doesn't seem to be a question asking if people are actually eligible to vote. Labour's biggest group in the Lab/Con marginals are 25-34 but some of these may not in fact be eligible especially with IER coming in next year
    -Conservatives are still leading amongst pensioners in the Lab/Con marginals, which gives them some comfort. While not as big as the swing from the Conservatives, UKIP are gaining some pensioner votes from Labour.

    So overall very good for Labour but some hope for Con due to their resilience amongst pensioners and the potential that younger groups may be less fixed in their allegiances (e.g. the Cleggasm) and less likely to be registered under the new system.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013

    felix said:

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    It's over a week old already and that takes no account of the problems with polling marginals. It's clearly a polling event for those who want a govt led by Miliband with no sign of a policy or a semblance of acceptance of the need for continued austerity to avoid a slide back to disaster.

    I suspect the polls have a lot of changes to go through before we have any real sense of what will happen in 2015. I also seriously doubt how many people would actually vote for Miliband even if the vote was next week.

    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

    There is nothing wrong with Tories being toxic, SO.

    The benefits to Tories are self-evident. It prevents οἱ πολλοί from invading personal space when you are forced to travel by public transport; it stops those to whom one has not been formally introduced from addressing you by your first name; and it deters all other forms of over-familiarity in subordinates.

    Where toxicity becomes dangerous is when reaction to it becomes excessive. It is certainly better to share a cab with a Tory than walk home in the rain; better still to shake a Tory's hand than lose an important contract; and better by far to vote for the Tories than condemn one's country to the folly and misrule of more Labour mismanagement.

    As always it is the dose which makes the poison.
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    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

    You might also have to factor in many voters intense dislike of the Labour party. You might have to rely on people forgetting what happened over the Labour period in office, or perhaps try to blame it on the baby eaters.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    felix said:

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    It's over a week old already and that takes no account of the problems with polling marginals. It's clearly a polling event for those who want a govt led by Miliband with no sign of a policy or a semblance of acceptance of the need for continued austerity to avoid a slide back to disaster.

    I suspect the polls have a lot of changes to go through before we have any real sense of what will happen in 2015. I also seriously doubt how many people would actually vote for Miliband even if the vote was next week.

    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

    Of course it might - but there is still a long way to go and it's quite silly the way some posters get massively over-excited by one poll. Let's see how the recovery beds in and how this affects perceptions.
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    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

    You might also have to factor in many voters intense dislike of the Labour party. You might have to rely on people forgetting what happened over the Labour period in office, or perhaps try to blame it on the baby eaters.

    I do factor it in. What Mike has pointed out on here time and time again is how many more people dislike the Tory brand than the Labour one; and how many more people say they would never vote Tory as compared to those who say they would never vote Labour. This is what the polls tell us, just as they tell us that EdM is also deeply unpopular. The issue is which will resonate and motivate more - dislike of the Tories or dislike of EdM.

    What we do know is that the Tories could not gain an overall majority in 2010 even though Labour got its second worst result since the war. I understand that Tories and Labour haters on here blame the BBC, the unions, the EU, the metropolitan elite, stupid voters, immigrants, welfare recipients, stamp collectors, bell ringers, popcorn, owls and just about anyone and anything else for this, but it may be worth just taking a little peek at the Tory party from the outside in to see what so many voters find so repellent.
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    AveryLP said:

    felix said:

    @Felix In what way is this poll out of date.

    This is the polling event of the year.

    It's over a week old already and that takes no account of the problems with polling marginals. It's clearly a polling event for those who want a govt led by Miliband with no sign of a policy or a semblance of acceptance of the need for continued austerity to avoid a slide back to disaster.

    I suspect the polls have a lot of changes to go through before we have any real sense of what will happen in 2015. I also seriously doubt how many people would actually vote for Miliband even if the vote was next week.

    They'll vote for him Doncaster. Everyone else will vote for their Labour candidate. What you are forgetting is how many voters are primarily motivated by their intense dislike of the Conservative party. The issue in 2015 will be how many anti-Ed voters there are compared to anti-Tory ones. That is the battle line. The Ashcroft poll indicates that in the marginals the election situation may not develop necessarily to the Tories' advantage.

    There is nothing wrong with Tories being toxic, SO.

    The benefits to Tories are self-evident. It prevents οἱ πολλοί from invading personal space when you are forced to travel by public transport; it stops those to whom one has not been formally introduced from addressing you by your first name; and it deters all other forms of over-familiarity in subordinates.

    Where toxicity becomes dangerous is when reaction to it becomes excessive. It is certainly better to share a cab with a Tory than walk home in the rain; better still to shake a Tory's hand than lose an important contract; and better by far to vote for the Tories than condemn one's country to the folly and misrule of more Labour mismanagement.

    As always it is the dose which makes the poison.

    Since 1992 not enough voters have agreed with you Avery. I would take a short walk home in light rain any day over a cab journey with George Osborne; and I would not trust Eric Pickles' handshake to deliver me what the contract promised.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    Andy JS Yes, I think results expected from Bavaria about 6pm
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    Panic in the lefty ranks ... you can almost smell it..
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    OGH Cameron needs Crosby to win back UKIP defectors, the UKIP vote will determine the next election
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    tim said:

    Aw diddums, it's everyone elses fault they didnt understand what Dave meant by hawking himself round the country promising no NHS reorganisation is it?

    Same old crap, never the Tories fault, nothing is ever the Tories fault.everyone lies about the Tories, boo hoo.

    No, the liars are people like you hawking the idea that "no more pointless reorganisations" means "we will not reorganise the NHS. Ever". But as ever, if you continue to shout it loud enough you hope people will begin to believe the lie.

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    The best the lefty panickers can come up with today is the word "Toxic"..really funny..
    That is not going to hack it boys.. you must try harder..
    Try a policy or two..
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Caveat said:

    Charles said:

    Caveat said:

    Charles - what do you put Gove's unpopularity down to? Lies told by the teaching unions?


    It's simple and irrefutable - anything that's nationalised and run by politicians is worse than competing private firms providing the same service.

    Anywhere, any time in history.

    There are certain natural monopolies that are better provided by the state.

    Air traffic control, for instance.

    But Mandy sold that one...
    Only since the cost of providing that service is a trivial part of the cost of a plane ticket.
    The State should get out of controlling airport capacity, just as in C19th Britain: the company has the right to buy and build whatever it likes - paying compensation to those affected.

    A recent report said that LHR3 would provide sufficient capacity for LHR until 2040.

    ROTFLMAO - if LHR3 opened tomorrow it would be running at capacity by next weekend.

    London needs a 10-12 runway capacity hub airport - with 6 runways open now. That would drive down landing fees, lead to the abolition of the hated APD and attract passengers and revenue from the whole world, with the new airport Europe's 'super-hub'.

    Of course, Heathrow cannot expand to anything like the capacity required - a problem stemming back to the central planners who chose the site as 'London airport' in 1947 (or so0.

    Yet another example of central planning screwing up - had each London-area airdrome been privatised and allowed to expand and compete with its rivals on a 'do what you like - we'll back your right to buy land and build on it' we'd not be in our current capacity-strangled mess, where demand is perhaps 3-4x supply and guaranteed landing-slots are worth more than the airlines leasing (owning?) them.
    Delightful although that might be in theory, what happens if Friends of the Earth, for instance, buy a single house in the middle of the planned runway and refuse to sell.

    An element of coercion, through compulsory purchase, is likely to be necessary for big infrastructure developments to happen.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013
    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @Charles

    Aw diddums, it's everyone elses fault they didnt understand what Dave meant by hawking himself round the country promising no NHS reorganisation is it?

    Same old crap, never the Tories fault, nothing is ever the Tories fault.everyone lies about the Tories, boo hoo.

    They even wrote in the coalition agreement that they intended to strengthen PCTs, that'll be someone else's fault too.

    I had never bothered to listen to the full piece before.

    You always quote the "no pointless reorganisations" without quoting the second part of the statement.

    You are a liar.
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    What we do know is that the Tories could not gain an overall majority in 2010 even though Labour got its second worst result since the war. I understand that Tories and Labour haters on here blame the BBC, the unions, the EU, the metropolitan elite, stupid voters, immigrants, welfare recipients, stamp collectors, bell ringers, popcorn, owls and just about anyone and anything else for this, but it may be worth just taking a little peek at the Tory party from the outside in to see what so many voters find so repellent.

    The Tories could not get enough people to vote for them to form a government with an overall majority, that much is clear. A little bit of this is due to the uneven nature of the distribution of constituency size. Much of it is because people prefer to vote for parties other than the Big Two - over 30% voted for the Lib Dems or another party in 2010. Now this still means the Tories are failing to get enough people to vote for them, but why does a 37% vote mean the Tories are "toxic" and a 30% vote for labour not mean that they are toxic?

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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255

    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
    Probably something to do with the fact that most of their left-wing members have torn up their membership cards over the last three years...
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    edited September 2013
    Alternative für Deutschland is now at 4% with three of the polling firms. Today's INSA has them level-pegging with the FDP:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm
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    What we do know is that the Tories could not gain an overall majority in 2010 even though Labour got its second worst result since the war. I understand that Tories and Labour haters on here blame the BBC, the unions, the EU, the metropolitan elite, stupid voters, immigrants, welfare recipients, stamp collectors, bell ringers, popcorn, owls and just about anyone and anything else for this, but it may be worth just taking a little peek at the Tory party from the outside in to see what so many voters find so repellent.

    The Tories could not get enough people to vote for them to form a government with an overall majority, that much is clear. A little bit of this is due to the uneven nature of the distribution of constituency size. Much of it is because people prefer to vote for parties other than the Big Two - over 30% voted for the Lib Dems or another party in 2010. Now this still means the Tories are failing to get enough people to vote for them, but why does a 37% vote mean the Tories are "toxic" and a 30% vote for labour not mean that they are toxic?

    Labour was toxic. Even people like me could not for them. But all the polls are now telling us that it seems to have been a temporary toxicity and that things have reverted to norm.
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    What we do know is that the Tories could not gain an overall majority in 2010 even though Labour got its second worst result since the war. I understand that Tories and Labour haters on here blame the BBC, the unions, the EU, the metropolitan elite, stupid voters, immigrants, welfare recipients, stamp collectors, bell ringers, popcorn, owls and just about anyone and anything else for this, but it may be worth just taking a little peek at the Tory party from the outside in to see what so many voters find so repellent.

    The Tories could not get enough people to vote for them to form a government with an overall majority, that much is clear. A little bit of this is due to the uneven nature of the distribution of constituency size. Much of it is because people prefer to vote for parties other than the Big Two - over 30% voted for the Lib Dems or another party in 2010. Now this still means the Tories are failing to get enough people to vote for them, but why does a 37% vote mean the Tories are "toxic" and a 30% vote for labour not mean that they are toxic?

    Could you please explain what is repellent, and why I should find myself being such an obnoxious person?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    Bavarian exit poll:

    CSU 49%, SPD 20.5%, FW 8.5%, GRÜ 8.5%, FDP 3%, Others 10.5%
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    Aw diddums, it's everyone elses fault they didnt understand what Dave meant by hawking himself round the country promising no NHS reorganisation is it?

    Same old crap, never the Tories fault, nothing is ever the Tories fault.everyone lies about the Tories, boo hoo.

    They even wrote in the coalition agreement that they intended to strengthen PCTs, that'll be someone else's fault too.

    I had never bothered to listen to the full piece before.

    You always quote the "no pointless reorganisations" without quoting the second part of the statement.

    You are a liar.
    Oh dear

    Coalition agreement

    "The local PCT will act as a champion for
    patients and commission those residual
    services that are best undertaken at a wider
    level, rather than directly by GPs. It will also
    take responsibility for improving public health
    for people in their area, working closely
    with the local authority and other local
    organisations"

    Who was lying Charles?

    David Cameron lied for years and he used his family to do it, tragic.
    There was a plan to use the local PCT. After entering government, and presumably working up the idea with civil servants, they changed their mind. Plans change.

    There is a difference between that and deliberating telling an untruth.

    edit: and by the way, PCTs are terrible. I've known someone be sent to life-threatening surgery, against the preferences of the patient and the recommendation of their specialist, because the PCT decided they didn't want to spend any money from their pharmacy budget on NPS products.
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    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    Aw diddums, it's everyone elses fault they didnt understand what Dave meant by hawking himself round the country promising no NHS reorganisation is it?

    Same old crap, never the Tories fault, nothing is ever the Tories fault.everyone lies about the Tories, boo hoo.

    They even wrote in the coalition agreement that they intended to strengthen PCTs, that'll be someone else's fault too.

    I had never bothered to listen to the full piece before.

    You always quote the "no pointless reorganisations" without quoting the second part of the statement.

    You are a liar.
    Oh dear

    Coalition agreement

    "The local PCT will act as a champion for
    patients and commission those residual
    services that are best undertaken at a wider
    level, rather than directly by GPs. It will also
    take responsibility for improving public health
    for people in their area, working closely
    with the local authority and other local
    organisations"

    Who was lying Charles?

    David Cameron lied for years and he used his family to do it, tragic.
    There was a plan to use the local PCT. After entering government, and presumably working up the idea with civil servants, they changed their mind. Plans change

    There is a difference between that and deliberating telling an untruth.

    Hmmm - how long between the Coalition Agreement being signed and the announcement of the NHS reorganisation?

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    CaveatCaveat Posts: 15
    edited September 2013
    Charles:

    Delightful although that might be in theory, what happens if Friends of the Earth, for instance, buy a single house in the middle of the planned runway and refuse to sell.

    An element of coercion, through compulsory purchase, is likely to be necessary for big infrastructure developments to happen.
    Precisely what I advocated, Charles (please read my post in full). How do you think the railways bought the land they needed for their London termini (etc)?

    Pay compensation at 110-120% of land's value (as in France) and people will queue up to have their land developed - see housing as an example.

    Pay 80-100% and you'll make NIMBYs of us all - or BANANAs as they're now called.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Ed Miliband became Leader of the Labour party as the I am not David Miliband candidate, and he still hasn't got a clue how to run the Labour party. And even the fact he is the only main party LotO hasn't enabled him to rise his political stature to a level where the public can credible see him becoming our next PM. Its going to be very interesting watching both his personal polling and that of the Labour party from about six months into the GE campaign. The worry for the Labour party is that they end up with a repeat of the last Scottish Elections.
    felix said:

    To be more serious - surely some of the sane left of centre voters have to be concerned that Labour may come to power in 2015 on the basis of 'we're not Tories' without so much of a shadow of an idea of how to run the country.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    AndyJS And that exit poll will have given AfD a boost if correct, as the FW has some links with them although a regional party and the FDP is below the threshold for parliament. Also a boost for Merkel with the CSU getting an absolute majority, but would be a shock next week if the AfD got into parliament and the FDP did not, omens for 2015 here and UKIP overtaking the LDs at least in voteshare?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2013

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    @Charles

    Aw diddums, it's everyone elses fault they didnt understand what Dave meant by hawking himself round the country promising no NHS reorganisation is it?

    Same old crap, never the Tories fault, nothing is ever the Tories fault.everyone lies about the Tories, boo hoo.

    They even wrote in the coalition agreement that they intended to strengthen PCTs, that'll be someone else's fault too.

    I had never bothered to listen to the full piece before.

    You always quote the "no pointless reorganisations" without quoting the second part of the statement.

    You are a liar.
    Oh dear

    Coalition agreement

    "The local PCT will act as a champion for
    patients and commission those residual
    services that are best undertaken at a wider
    level, rather than directly by GPs. It will also
    take responsibility for improving public health
    for people in their area, working closely
    with the local authority and other local
    organisations"

    Who was lying Charles?

    David Cameron lied for years and he used his family to do it, tragic.
    There was a plan to use the local PCT. After entering government, and presumably working up the idea with civil servants, they changed their mind. Plans change

    There is a difference between that and deliberating telling an untruth.

    Hmmm - how long between the Coalition Agreement being signed and the announcement of the NHS reorganisation?

    Not sure when the full legislation was published (assuming this is the best date we have for when things changed although in reality it would be before this?)

    edit: my point is why would a rational person negotiate a coalition agreement with a partner if they had no intention of keeping to it at the time they signed.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    There's a possibility both the FDP and AfD will get about 4.9% which means nearly 10% voting for them but no seats in the Bundestag.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Andy_JS said:

    Bavarian exit poll:

    CSU 49%, SPD 20.5%, FW 8.5%, GRÜ 8.5%, FDP 3%, Others 10.5%

    So CSU up 5, SPD up 2. Former presumably re-gains its absolute majority but have they performed below expectations?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Caveat said:

    Charles:


    Delightful although that might be in theory, what happens if Friends of the Earth, for instance, buy a single house in the middle of the planned runway and refuse to sell.

    An element of coercion, through compulsory purchase, is likely to be necessary for big infrastructure developments to happen.
    Precisely what I advocated, Charles (please read my post in full). How do you think the railways bought the land they needed for their London termini (etc)?

    Pay compensation at 110-120% of land's value (as in France) and people will queue up to have their land developed - see housing as an example.

    Pay 80-100% and you'll make NIMBYs of us all - or BANANAs as they're now called.


    I did - you could have been clearer: I assume you meant this "the company has the right to buy and build whatever it likes - paying compensation to those affected"

    So you are trampling over property rights, favouring one private individual over another, with no democratic accountability.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    AndyJS Possibly, but one should get over the threshold
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    The party of protest becomes a party of government:

    "Liberal Democrats have voted to support the building of a new generation of nuclear power plants - a policy U-turn which marks an important victory for the Party's leadership."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24100833
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    Projected Bavarian seats - CSU 102, SPD 43, FW 18, Greens 17
    http://www.br-online.de/landtagswahl/zahlen.shtml
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    The Libdems have discovered that being in Government is all about delivering the possible rather than the dream. :) No matter how green their credentials, no one wants to be in a Government that cannot keep the lights on.

    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
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    John, yes, CSU will get an absolute majority. Currently predictions 102 seats CSU 43 SPD 18 FW 17 Greens
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    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
    Probably something to do with the fact that most of their left-wing members have torn up their membership cards over the last three years...
    Many thanks for that, - however after a little googling it appears Aunty has an alternative view.

    BBC - “Liberal Democrats have voted to support the building of a new generation of nuclear power plants - a policy U-turn which marks an important victory for the Party's leadership.”

    “Ed Davey told delegates nuclear was a 'genuinely low carbon source of electricity'”

    It seems Nick Clegg after only a short time in power has become a pragmatist and excepted ‘wind-farms’ and other such quackery will never fulfil the UK’s long term energy needs.
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    fitalass said:

    The Libdems have discovered that being in Government is all about delivering the possible rather than the dream. :) No matter how green their credentials, no one wants to be in a Government that cannot keep the lights on.

    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
    snap..!
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    John, yes, CSU will get an absolute majority. Currently predictions 102 seats CSU 43 SPD 18 FW 17 Greens

    Andrea, Thanks and a comfortable one at that. "Mutti" will be happy with a week to go!
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    CaveatCaveat Posts: 15
    edited September 2013

    The party of protest becomes a party of government:

    "Liberal Democrats have voted to support the building of a new generation of nuclear power plants - a policy U-turn which marks an important victory for the Party's leadership."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24100833

    Electricity generation is a by-product of the nuclear power stations built to provide the plutonium for Cold War-era nuclear weapons and their design was a compromise, whereby consumers bought electricity and so gave the weapon designers their basic raw material 'free'.

    Since LDs are CND supporters, someone must have explained to them that modern nuclear power stations are designed to optimise power production and minimise down-time, thus producing power cheaper than a current (1970's) generation nuclear station.

    Plutonium can be 'burned' in a specially-designed reactor, but we no longer need large quantities for weapons production (thank Goodness)

    Just as the motorways (designed in the 1950's) were planned to allow for the rapid transport of our Armed forces in time of war, with the public being allowed to use them in between times. hence the M1 stopping at Catterick (aka Leeds).

    [Check the rail and motorway access to the principle naval, air and army bases of 1960 to see the link. Rail was deemed too vulnerable to a few saboteurs after the Resistance/SOE's efforts of WW2.]
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    MikeK said:
    This is interesting:
    "Mr Afriyie told the Conservative Renewal conference: "I believe the British people should have a referendum on EU membership this side of the election"

    That's a real offer there.

    Afriyie challenge in June 2014? :-)
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    Labour was toxic. Even people like me could not for them. But all the polls are now telling us that it seems to have been a temporary toxicity and that things have reverted to norm.

    Labour are currently polling an average of about 38.5%, only 1.5% more than the "toxic" Tories got at the last election. Just where does toxicity end and electability, nay popularity, start exactly?

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    MikeK said:
    This is interesting:
    "Mr Afriyie told the Conservative Renewal conference: "I believe the British people should have a referendum on EU membership this side of the election"

    That's a real offer there.

    Afriyie challenge in June 2014? :-)
    That must be the first time ever that the word interesting has been in the same sentence as Adam Afriyie.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Simon :)

    fitalass said:

    The Libdems have discovered that being in Government is all about delivering the possible rather than the dream. :) No matter how green their credentials, no one wants to be in a Government that cannot keep the lights on.

    Andy_JS said:

    LDs have voted in favour of nuclear power for the first time in their history.

    Interesting – I wonder what has sparked this volte face ?
    snap..!
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    MikeK said:
    Well I'm not surprised, they failed to be straight with us about the Lisbon referendum. The result was exactly as I had expected - no point having a referendum if the treaty has already been ratified - but they should have told us that to start with.

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    IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Well what do we have here. Evidence that Labour and the Lib Dems are giving the Tories a kicking in the ground game.
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    JohnO said:

    MikeK said:
    This is interesting:
    "Mr Afriyie told the Conservative Renewal conference: "I believe the British people should have a referendum on EU membership this side of the election"

    That's a real offer there.

    Afriyie challenge in June 2014? :-)
    That must be the first time ever that the word interesting has been in the same sentence as Adam Afriyie.
    I'll up it, "exciting".

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    IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Can't help but think Crosby should be fired. He is helping the Tories lose members hand over fist. Latest news is that is approaching 85,000......
This discussion has been closed.