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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TNS BMRB polling on Scottish Independence

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    On topic, this Scottish poll is disappointing for those of us English that are in favour of Scots independence (probably the majority!). Easterross do you have a link to SLAB Mrs Rab C Nesbit's new hairdo? I also agree that Osborne should campaign more in Scotland this side of the referendum.

    Actually. Last time Osborne got involved in Scotland. There was a 7% movement in favour of remaining in the Union. Which amused OGH and me.
    Let us hope that Osborne believes that as well.
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    On topic, this Scottish poll is disappointing for those of us English that are in favour of Scots independence (probably the majority!). Easterross do you have a link to SLAB Mrs Rab C Nesbit's new hairdo? I also agree that Osborne should campaign more in Scotland this side of the referendum.

    Actually. Last time Osborne got involved in Scotland. There was a 7% movement in favour of remaining in the Union. Which amused OGH and me.
    Let us hope that Osborne believes that as well.
    I don't know what to say.

    I'm still reeling from being called a Nat this morning.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    Mark Reckless MP @MarkReckless
    @PlatoSays @schofieldkevin Expect Salmond really wants it to be 'golden goal' for his side but a five race accumulator for pro-union side
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    Ed Miliband is on a roll. Fresh from his triumph last week of screwing up the unity of the Western alliance and gaining the whole-hearted support of Assad, Putin and Iran, today we find he's made a major step forward in his goal of screwing up Labour's relations with the unions and Labour's funding.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    More bad new from Wales - most of it their own fault!

    Children aged seven in Wales were lagging behind their contemporaries in England in 2007 when it came to literacy, a detailed study has found.

    Research shows that while pupils in the two countries scored equally for numeracy, the gap in literacy levels increased as they grew up.

    Prof Chris Taylor of Cardiff University said Welsh seven-year-olds were a month behind in vocabulary in 2007. (and it has not improved since)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23949650

    Universities in Wales have called for the Welsh government to review the way they are funded to prevent millions of pounds going to institutions around the UK.

    Currently, Welsh students have the majority of their tuition fees paid wherever they study.

    As a result, tens of millions of pounds from the higher education budget in Wales goes to universities elsewhere. (but they do not ask the vital question - why do Welsh students prefer English universities - answer because most of the Welsh universities are cr*p)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23955772

    Full-time workers in Wales are worse off by £32 a week compared with five years ago, says trade union umbrella body the TUC. It is the biggest fall anywhere in the UK. (because Wales has a bad reputation among potential employers)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23949656
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Ed Miliband is on a roll. Fresh from his triumph last week of screwing up the unity of the Western alliance and gaining the whole-hearted support of Assad, Putin and Iran, today we find he's made a major step forward in his goal of screwing up Labour's relations with the unions and Labour's funding.

    @DPJHodges: Don't understand why shadow ministers are up in arms at GMB announcement. This is precisely what Ed Miliband called for.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2013
    One of the most divisive people inside Labour has spoken up.
    http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/2013/09/unity-is-strength-2
    "Yet this force – solidarity – is one of the defining characteristics that distinguishes Labour from say, the Lib Dems, the Tories or the SNP. "
    I am not sure Tony Blair would see Watson that way.

    PS Off topic a R5 caller just said. "Labour won 3 erections in a row". Nicky Campbell almost collapsed.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <
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    Scott_P said:

    Strong. Decisive.

    @JohnRentoul: Latest YouGov (Lab lead 4pts - what I said) has EdM drop behind Clegg as "natural leader": 2% to 3% http://t.co/nIc0VznpyJ

    Not exactly meaningful scores though!? Without checking, is that one of these questions that asks 'which of these does the following description most apply to?', and then names the leaders and NOTA? If so, while it's useful in providing info as to how the leaders are seen in relative terms, I don't think it's as relevant as a straight is / is not option for each.
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    Scott_P said:

    Ed Miliband is on a roll. Fresh from his triumph last week of screwing up the unity of the Western alliance and gaining the whole-hearted support of Assad, Putin and Iran, today we find he's made a major step forward in his goal of screwing up Labour's relations with the unions and Labour's funding.

    @DPJHodges: Don't understand why shadow ministers are up in arms at GMB announcement. This is precisely what Ed Miliband called for.
    It's ok.. Ed thought all this through, we were told...
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    Ed Miliband is on a roll. Fresh from his triumph last week of screwing up the unity of the Western alliance and gaining the whole-hearted support of Assad, Putin and Iran, today we find he's made a major step forward in his goal of screwing up Labour's relations with the unions and Labour's funding.

    Time for an Ed is crap thread ?

    I haven't written one in a while.

    I have to admit I hate scheduling Ed is crap thread on Wednesday Afternoons, that guarantees he has a barnstorming PMQs.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    rcs1000 said:

    You all heard it here first: the Spanish economy has returned to growth. Quoting the FT this morning "Markit's purchasing managers' index for August registered a reading of 50.4, up from 48.5 in July and the first reading above 50 since July 2011. (A reading above 50 indicates growth, while a sub-50 figure indicates contraction)."

    It's still shit to be one of the 25 or 26% of people in the country who are unemployed, but let's be pleased that things are improving there. (It's worth noting that Rajoy modelled the changes to his countries employment laws on Mrs Thatcher's freeing of the UK labour market in the early 1980s.)


    And another month where the Markit composite PMI figures show Ireland with the strongest growth in the Eurozone - http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/83eb8041afdc454d8510e3951cead070

    If they had only kept their house bubble under control, their underlying economy is impressive.
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    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    You all heard it here first: the Spanish economy has returned to growth. Quoting the FT this morning "Markit's purchasing managers' index for August registered a reading of 50.4, up from 48.5 in July and the first reading above 50 since July 2011. (A reading above 50 indicates growth, while a sub-50 figure indicates contraction)."

    It's still shit to be one of the 25 or 26% of people in the country who are unemployed, but let's be pleased that things are improving there. (It's worth noting that Rajoy modelled the changes to his countries employment laws on Mrs Thatcher's freeing of the UK labour market in the early 1980s.)


    And another month where the Markit composite PMI figures show Ireland with the strongest growth in the Eurozone - http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/83eb8041afdc454d8510e3951cead070

    If they had only kept their house bubble under control, their underlying economy is impressive.
    Remember, Austerity isn't working...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Brilliant news for Ed

    @BBCNormanS: Senior GMB source - "This cd well be the beginning of the end. We will not pay for our own demise."

    @MichaelLCrick: GMB say their much reduced affiliation contributions to Labour won't be replaced with increased donations: "Ed doesn't want our money."
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    Ed Miliband is on a roll. Fresh from his triumph last week of screwing up the unity of the Western alliance and gaining the whole-hearted support of Assad, Putin and Iran, today we find he's made a major step forward in his goal of screwing up Labour's relations with the unions and Labour's funding.

    Time for an Ed is crap thread ?
    No, let us keep the views about Ed to ourselves lest Labour commit an unprecedented act of regicide.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited September 2013

    On topic, this Scottish poll is disappointing for those of us English that are in favour of Scots independence (probably the majority!). Easterross do you have a link to SLAB Mrs Rab C Nesbit's new hairdo? I also agree that Osborne should campaign more in Scotland this side of the referendum.

    Actually. Last time Osborne got involved in Scotland. There was a 7% movement in favour of remaining in the Union. Which amused OGH and me.
    Let us hope that Osborne believes that as well.
    When Osborne ventures into the independence debate he's unsentimental and factual . The facts make the Darien Dreamers' blood run cold.

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2011/08/30/dare-george-osborne-grasp-the-scottish-spending-nettle/

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    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 5m
    GMB warn cut to affiliation fees "just the tip of the iceberg" - other funds may also be cut including General Election Fund

    What a genius Ed is...
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Jess Brammar @jessbrammar
    ONS say in 2012 Glasgow & Liverpool were in top 5 workless areas for 9th consecutive yr - 30.2% of Glaswegian households, 28.7% in Liverpool
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,864
    tim said:

    "Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro found hanged after one month in jail"


    Or something.

    Did he jump, or was he pushed?

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,864
    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...

    Err, Labour are captives of the unions, who are now going to bleed the party dry...

    Have a nice day!

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    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...

    Quite possibly, Nick.

    Which would you prefer, losing £1m, or getting a negative comment from Scott P?
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    @tim - It's not looking terribly good for your lot, is it? I don't know why you bother apart from keeping me spasmodically amused
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    SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    So, the price of Ed avoiding that nasty Cameron bullying him at PMQs about being a union pawn is £1.2m p.a, and the price of a 4% rise in a poll lead for 4 days, 18 months out from an election was the destruction of the UK's special relationship with the US and our loss of our influence on the world stage.

    He's having a great year our Ed, 2% sounds flattering
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    NPXMP.. You already are, what's new?
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    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    That the market was expecting 59.7 says a lot about the strengthening economy over last few months.
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    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...

    Maybe Nick, instead of worrying about what other people say, you could say what you think?

    Just a thought...
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.


    I would guess it will depend on how oil and gas production goes this quarter. You have to wonder at the point of economic forecasting when we might have more growth in one quarter this year than most were predicting for the whole year back in April.

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    Plato said:

    Jess Brammar @jessbrammar
    ONS say in 2012 Glasgow & Liverpool were in top 5 workless areas for 9th consecutive yr - 30.2% of Glaswegian households, 28.7% in Liverpool

    Labour isn't working .

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Scott_P said:

    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...

    Err, Labour are captives of the unions, who are now going to bleed the party dry...

    Have a nice day!

    I've seen reports this morning that the GMB are also reducing their political fund by 30% too - so that's not soft Labour money either.
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    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.

    Maybe, but oil/gas will have to be at least flat and probably positive. Whilst the ONS' construction department have yet to replace the random number generator.

    Services though are guaranteed to be very strong.

    Poor old Mark Carney: from promising jam today to finding that he'll have to be that tw@ who puts up interest rates.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,864
    JonathanD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.


    I would guess it will depend on how oil and gas production goes this quarter. You have to wonder at the point of economic forecasting when we might have more growth in one quarter this year than most were predicting for the whole year back in April.

    If the OECD are correct that growth for the year will be 1.5%, that would imply that growth will be run at 1% for this quarter and the next one.

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    Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 42m
    @GuidoFawkes GMB is annoyed that Unite got many more 2015 candidates, I'm told.

    Unions running labour...not Miliband... shows how weak and ineffective he is.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 42m
    @GuidoFawkes GMB is annoyed that Unite got many more 2015 candidates, I'm told.

    Unions running labour...not Miliband... shows how weak and ineffective he is.

    I've already told Mr Pickard that I'm very sceptical about this claim - Paul Kenny was very clear that he thought it was a crap idea on principle.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    It may be that the decision of the GMB is being overstated.

    At the moment they are cutting the number of membership fees they pay out of their political fund to Labour drastically. This means they will pay just over £1m less a year in membership fees. But that money remains in their political fund. What are they going to do with it?

    They may choose to make one off contributions to Labour. Subject to the progress with the Lobbying bill they may choose to spend it on phone banks and GOTV efforts for Labour at the next election. In either of these scenarios Labour has not really lost anything.

    Alternatively, they may choose to spend it running large campaigns to increase the minimum wage or to reform the law on zero hour contracts or something else that is actually relevant to their members. Or they may vote next year not to have a political fund at all.

    It seems to me that it is at best premature to say Labour has lost from this. What is clear is that future payments will be at the discretion of the Union leadership and that a shot has been fired across Miliband's bow warning him that he better start toing the line a little more and even pretend to listen.

    So not necessarily less money but less money by right and, possibly, more at their discretion. If other Unions follow this line their control of Labour will be greatly increased and the idea of a cap of single contributions will be dead in the water. I am sure Ed had thought all this through though.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Those top 5 workless areas in a graph

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTTlYmeCMAA9vku.jpg:large
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    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.

    Maybe, but oil/gas will have to be at least flat and probably positive. Whilst the ONS' construction department have yet to replace the random number generator.

    Services though are guaranteed to be very strong.

    Poor old Mark Carney: from promising jam today to finding that he'll have to be that tw@ who puts up interest rates.
    The country needs to be weaned off cheap credit sometime..

    That'll be when wages will need to rise. Has to happen.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    YouGov @YouGov
    Opposition to missile strikes against #Syria has hardened, with 69% (+18) now opposed and only 21% (-1) in favour y-g.co/14XvLxq
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Re the UK, here's a nice chart of Services PMI vs economic growth - http://clamo.ftdata.co.uk/files/2013-09/04/uk services.PNG. If the relationship holds true, we could well see a big, big jump in GDP numbers for Q3.

    In fact, everywhere except France seems to be seeing things improving right now, and with the UK leading the way.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DavidL said:



    They may choose to make one off contributions to Labour.

    They have already said they won't
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    Mr. Eagles, me*, not I.

    Mr Dancer, with enormous respect I disagree. The correct answer to the question could not be "Me should be more outraged". One could not rephrase the question as "Should me be more outraged or the Nats?" The correct pronoun in the context is clearly "I".

    On the other hand of course, most people would expect to hear the "incorrect" version these days.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    If growth continues to accelerate at the current rate next year will be something like a boom. Subject to any major international dislocations growth could easily exceed 3% next year with falling unemployment, a big reduction in the deficit and probably interest rate increases on a very modest scale.

    The political implications of this could be very significant. Especially if it starts to feed through into real term wage increases as it should.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A trend here?

    RT @Xlibris1: EdM knifes his brother, knifed the PM. knifed Trade Unions - YouGov find 2% think he's a natural leader . #SaveEd
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    Coincidentally, I sat next to Chris Philp, the author of the Tax Payers' Alliance Work for Dole paper which was released today, at a dinner last night. He was the 2010 Conservative candidate in Hampstead & Kilburn and came within 42 votes of beating Glenda Jackson on a 6.7% swing from third place. He's an impressive guy.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tim said:

    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:



    They may choose to make one off contributions to Labour.

    They have already said they won't
    Link?
    Posted upthread. Surprised you missed it

    @MichaelLCrick: GMB say their much reduced affiliation contributions to Labour won't be replaced with increased donations: "Ed doesn't want our money."
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2013
    Evil right-wing press.

    Ed Miliband is paying the price for his hot-headed reaction to the Falkirk selection scandal

    Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ed-miliband-paying-price-hot-headed-2249682#ixzz2dugfTP6w


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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed's fight with the unions is great for him

    @MirrorPolitics: Ed Miliband is paying the price for his hot-headed reaction to the Falkirk selection scandal http://t.co/8Br7RuTIEd
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited September 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    Re the UK, here's a nice chart of Services PMI vs economic growth - http://clamo.ftdata.co.uk/files/2013-09/04/uk services.PNG. If the relationship holds true, we could well see a big, big jump in GDP numbers for Q3.

    In fact, everywhere except France seems to be seeing things improving right now, and with the UK leading the way.

    I knew Hollande would be bad but he has been worse , much worse. How can the French terminate his presidency this year ?

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    On topic, this Scottish poll is disappointing for those of us English that are in favour of Scots independence (probably the majority!). Easterross do you have a link to SLAB Mrs Rab C Nesbit's new hairdo? I also agree that Osborne should campaign more in Scotland this side of the referendum.

    Actually. Last time Osborne got involved in Scotland. There was a 7% movement in favour of remaining in the Union. Which amused OGH and me.
    Let us hope that Osborne believes that as well.
    When Osborne ventures into the independence debate he's unsentimental and factual . The facts make the Darien Dreamers' blood run cold.

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2011/08/30/dare-george-osborne-grasp-the-scottish-spending-nettle/

    Yep, promising Scotland a humongous 4% extra growth spread over the next 30 years if we stay in the Union has reset the terms of the debate. I don't know if we can live with such vaunting ambition.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    DavidL said:

    If growth continues to accelerate at the current rate next year will be something like a boom. Subject to any major international dislocations growth could easily exceed 3% next year with falling unemployment, a big reduction in the deficit and probably interest rate increases on a very modest scale.

    The political implications of this could be very significant. Especially if it starts to feed through into real term wage increases as it should.

    I think you're absolutely right. I think 3+% could easily be on the cards for next year. While I don't want to be accused of excessive Polyanna-ism, I think that given how far we are below trend GDP, a 4% number for next year is not impossible.

    I also think that it is very interesting that those Eurozone countries which really bit the bullet and freed up labour markets and reduced civil service wages - Ireland and Spain - are clearly in recovery mode. Those countries which have resisted structural changes (France, and to a lesser extent Italy) are still struggling. Irrespective, the Eurozone drag is reducing, which is a clear positive for our economy.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour = Nokia
    Unite = Microsoft

    Only a matter of time...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    Coincidentally, I sat next to Chris Philp, the author of the Tax Payers' Alliance Work for Dole paper which was released today, at a dinner last night. He was the 2010 Conservative candidate in Hampstead & Kilburn and came within 42 votes of beating Glenda Jackson on a 6.7% swing from third place. He's an impressive guy.

    As a Hampstead resident, I completely agree. Very impressive. Does he have a nice safe seat lined up for 2015?
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    Presumably, if the GMB had increased funding by £1m, Scott P would be telling us it showed we were captives of the unions...

    Of course. Yah-boo is so much fun.

    However, it would be a valid point, as for that matter it is even under the current funding arrangements.

    That said, the potential loss of c.£5m per parliament from the GMB alone (NB - they haven't actually made this change yet), will be highly significant if it happens and can't be replaced by other means. And therein are the two key questions.

    In the long run, Labour is probably strategically stronger if it relaxes its relationship with the unions, but only if it doesn't go bankrupt in the process (or at least, runs so short of cash that it can't campaign effectively on a nationwide scale).
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    MDiC.. A sn*per.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2013
    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.
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    rcs1000 said:

    As a Hampstead resident, I completely agree. Very impressive. Does he have a nice safe seat lined up for 2015?

    Not yet.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,864
    tim said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.

    Maybe, but oil/gas will have to be at least flat and probably positive. Whilst the ONS' construction department have yet to replace the random number generator.

    Services though are guaranteed to be very strong.

    Poor old Mark Carney: from promising jam today to finding that he'll have to be that tw@ who puts up interest rates.
    Housing bubble then interest rate rises, just after the taxpayer guarantees mortgages, that's the plan.
    My impression is that house prices are rising modestly (outside parts of London) rather than there being a bubble.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Wow - another great graph

    Sam Bowman @s8mb
    Ireland's gonna party like it's 1999! RT @ReutersFlasseur: August Euro services PMIs summary link.reuters.com/keq22v pic.twitter.com/FgbR3zgtn7

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTTmJXvCQAEUBjo.jpg:large
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Paging Ed Balls

    @AndrewLilico: It must be clear to everyone that the "spending cuts will lead to perma-slump" narrative is a total dead duck now?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,383
    edited September 2013

    rcs1000 said:

    As a Hampstead resident, I completely agree. Very impressive. Does he have a nice safe seat lined up for 2015?

    Not yet.
    A good guy. Isn't he going for Hampstead again? Our Glenda going should clear the way for him; her luvviedom and fame (!) connected with a certain section of local voters in years gone by.
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    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    The government should concentrate on reducing the cost of living rather than growth by any means. Bringing down the cost of housing and the amount of tax which are two of the largest outgoings would help much more than a 2% rise in debt fuelled GDP.
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    Richard.

    Interesting that you mention Chris Philp.

    He's been in the news last couple of days.

    Nigel Kennedy, the classical violinist, is facing calls to be investigated by police after reportedly claiming he allowed a friend to vote in the 2010 general election with his wife’s voting card.

    Mr Kennedy, 56, claimed in an interview at the weekend that he had asked a friend to vote for Labour candidate Glenda Jackson using the voting card belonging to his wife, Agnieszka Chowaniec-Kennedy, who was away.

    Mrs Jackson eventually won the seat for Hampstead and Kilburn by a margin of just 42 votes out of about 53,000 cast, the narrowest margin in any mainland constituency.

    ....Chris Philp, the Tory candidate who was defeated by Mrs Jackson in the 2010 poll said yesterday he had made a formal request for police to look into the whether any offence had been committed under the Representation of the People Act 1983. A police spokesman said he could not comment until the letter had been received.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10279271/Nigel-Kennedy-faces-calls-for-police-probe-over-election-comments.html
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    I think you are completely wrong.

    Don't forget that one of the reasons we've been such a magnet for EU-immigration is because other Eurozone countries were in recession. A Romanian will be more likely to stay at home if the local economy is doing OK. And if he is going to move for higher wages, then he'll prefer to stay close to home where he can get a bus back to Bucharest for the weekend for €12. But if the only jobs are in Hammersmith, then he'll trek here. Improving conditions across the Eurozone reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a destination for migrants.

    Anecdote alert: our building contractor has seen his team contract by four of five people over the summer, as Polish and German building activity has heated up. He's struggling to have the people to do all his jobs. Now, I realise this one guy, but it is a reminder that we are more affected - positively and negatively - by our neighbours than we realise.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    RT @World_First: UK Services PMI (August) = 60.5 vs 59.7 expected <</p>

    IMO, we could see growth of 1% or so for the current quarter.

    Maybe, but oil/gas will have to be at least flat and probably positive. Whilst the ONS' construction department have yet to replace the random number generator.

    Services though are guaranteed to be very strong.

    Poor old Mark Carney: from promising jam today to finding that he'll have to be that tw@ who puts up interest rates.
    Housing bubble then interest rate rises, just after the taxpayer guarantees mortgages, that's the plan.
    My impression is that house prices are rising modestly (outside parts of London) rather than there being a bubble.


    I'd agree with that and in some parts of the UK prices are even flat to falling - certainly less than wage growth. What I would like the government to focus on is making sure that first time buyers can buy a house more easily than buy to let landlords.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    The government should concentrate on reducing the cost of living rather than growth by any means. Bringing down the cost of housing and the amount of tax which are two of the largest outgoings would help much more than a 2% rise in debt fuelled GDP.
    tax cuts are theirs to control - further real terms rises in allowances for both 20 and 40 % are required.



  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    I think you are completely wrong.

    Don't forget that one of the reasons we've been such a magnet for EU-immigration is because other Eurozone countries were in recession. A Romanian will be more likely to stay at home if the local economy is doing OK. And if he is going to move for higher wages, then he'll prefer to stay close to home where he can get a bus back to Bucharest for the weekend for €12. But if the only jobs are in Hammersmith, then he'll trek here. Improving conditions across the Eurozone reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a destination for migrants.

    Anecdote alert: our building contractor has seen his team contract by four of five people over the summer, as Polish and German building activity has heated up. He's struggling to have the people to do all his jobs. Now, I realise this one guy, but it is a reminder that we are more affected - positively and negatively - by our neighbours than we realise.
    Maybe he could, you know... employ someone from this country?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,941
    edited September 2013
    TGOHF said:

    Labour = Nokia
    Unite = Microsoft

    Only a matter of time...

    Nokia is going to become a very successful business over the coming years. It is going to make its shareholders a lot of money. Its patents are unbelievably good and it is now going to start monetising them in a way it should have been doing, but hasn't.

    http://www.iam-magazine.com/Blog/Detail.aspx?g=73ab8b6b-b2be-4920-b905-330a71b9fd78

    The company I would worry about a lot more in this sector is BlackBerry as one potential suitor for both its patents and the overall business (Microsoft) seems to have ruled itself out. Is BlackBerry the LibDems!!??



  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Plato said:

    A trend here?

    RT @Xlibris1: EdM knifes his brother, knifed the PM. knifed Trade Unions - YouGov find 2% think he's a natural leader . #SaveEd

    On that trend the Tories could grab the prize at the 2015 GE, but only sans the duo of Cameron and Gids. They are the nuts in the gullet!
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    RCS 1000

    Hmm...

    I hope you are right. We have witnessed a hollowing out of the middle. It would be good politically and socially if wages at the lower end and in the middle will rise a bit. That would also help income tax receipts for the treasury. But I'm not convinced that the upward pressure is there yet.
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    Mr. Chuck, you're quite right. I must've been rather sleepyheaded this morning. I do apologise to Mr. Eagles (although he's still 100% wrong about an oriental despot's boy-toy being a superior general to Hannibal).
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    Panic in Liverpool.. The TaxPayers Alliance are suggesting that people on the dole actually do some work for their benefits...oooerr
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    Mr. Chuck, you're quite right. I must've been rather sleepyheaded this morning. I do apologise to Mr. Eagles (although he's still 100% wrong about an oriental despot's boy-toy being a superior general to Hannibal).

    Don't worry. You will soon see your error about Hannibal.

    Ed Miliband, the Hannibal of Carthage de nos jours.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    rcs1000 said:

    Coincidentally, I sat next to Chris Philp, the author of the Tax Payers' Alliance Work for Dole paper which was released today, at a dinner last night. He was the 2010 Conservative candidate in Hampstead & Kilburn and came within 42 votes of beating Glenda Jackson on a 6.7% swing from third place. He's an impressive guy.

    As a Hampstead resident, I completely agree. Very impressive. Does he have a nice safe seat lined up for 2015?
    Agree: I met him a number of times and he was very nice and impressive. I'm sorry he's not standing again for the constituency.

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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    The artist formerly known as Nige might be telling porkies or was 'misquoted', must have some recordings to sell. What a young scamp.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23948816

    http://www.markpack.org.uk/45245/nigel-kennedys-wife-responds-to-his-claim-that-he-arranged-for-someone-to-illegally-vote-on-her-behalf/
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    Fiona Millar @CIF –“The agony of no school places for five-year-olds: how did we come to this?”

    Top Comment – “Simple, the Labour government allowed uncontrolled immigration of people who have lots of children, they knew the statistics but failed to put in place a building program to cater for those babies who now a few years later need a school place.”

    Bless. There’s hope for the old rag yet – or at least for some of its readers.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/04/primary-school-place-crisis?commentpage=1
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    As someone who has long advocated Labour abandoning its structural links with the unions I have to say that I am very pleased by today's GMB news. It's the start of a process which, I hope, will see Labour become a much broader based social democratic party and the natural home for all those on the centre left. It will take time, it may even cost the party the next election, but in the end if we emerge with something that has a large membership and is rooted in the realities of the 21st century it will be well worth it.
  • Options

    Fiona Millar @CIF –“The agony of no school places for five-year-olds: how did we come to this?”

    Top Comment – “Simple, the Labour government allowed uncontrolled immigration of people who have lots of children, they knew the statistics but failed to put in place a building program to cater for those babies who now a few years later need a school place.”

    Bless. There’s hope for the old rag yet – or at least for some of its readers.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/04/primary-school-place-crisis?commentpage=1

    And the current government, which has been in power for over three years, failed to notice and has forbidden councils from building new schools, unless they are Free Schools. It is, therefore, putting its ideology before the needs of young children. Bless.

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    TGOHF said:

    Labour = Nokia
    Unite = Microsoft

    Only a matter of time...

    Does that make McCluskey the BSOD? or Ed Miliband Clippy?

    http://dsvmoqvwmd0c4.cloudfront.net/uploads/images/30/2013/02/Microsoft Office Clippy parody.jpg
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    I think you are completely wrong.

    Don't forget that one of the reasons we've been such a magnet for EU-immigration is because other Eurozone countries were in recession. A Romanian will be more likely to stay at home if the local economy is doing OK. And if he is going to move for higher wages, then he'll prefer to stay close to home where he can get a bus back to Bucharest for the weekend for €12. But if the only jobs are in Hammersmith, then he'll trek here. Improving conditions across the Eurozone reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a destination for migrants.

    Anecdote alert: our building contractor has seen his team contract by four of five people over the summer, as Polish and German building activity has heated up. He's struggling to have the people to do all his jobs. Now, I realise this one guy, but it is a reminder that we are more affected - positively and negatively - by our neighbours than we realise.
    Maybe he could, you know... employ someone from this country?
    He's a business person. He bids on contracts. He has a mixed crew of Brits, Poles and assorted others. I suspect the unemployment rate for trained British plumbers in NW3 is 0%.

    But the point is that he bids on contracts. If he was able to get an entirely British crew, then he might have costs 10% higher. He would then win far fewer contracts. He would go out of business. He is acting in an entirely logical manner to maximise his profits.

    Now, tell me. You own music playing equipment in your home. Did you buy Meridian or Linn? They're British-made. If you bought China made audio equipment then you are guilty of choosing to employ a cheap Chinese worker than a British one. You are doing exactly the same as my contractor, except you choose to lecture me.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Cyclefree said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Coincidentally, I sat next to Chris Philp, the author of the Tax Payers' Alliance Work for Dole paper which was released today, at a dinner last night. He was the 2010 Conservative candidate in Hampstead & Kilburn and came within 42 votes of beating Glenda Jackson on a 6.7% swing from third place. He's an impressive guy.

    As a Hampstead resident, I completely agree. Very impressive. Does he have a nice safe seat lined up for 2015?
    Agree: I met him a number of times and he was very nice and impressive. I'm sorry he's not standing again for the constituency.

    If he had been the candidate, I think H&K would have gone blue in 2015. As it is, I suspect the LibDem vote will spill Left, and we'll get a new Labour MP.
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    Mr. Eagles, I Cannae believe you're being so obtuse.
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    Mr. Chuck, you're quite right. I must've been rather sleepyheaded this morning. I do apologise to Mr. Eagles (although he's still 100% wrong about an oriental despot's boy-toy being a superior general to Hannibal).

    A pleasure for me to have the opportunity for some mid-morning pedantry Mr Dancer.

    Still very much on the fence re the important Caesar/Hannibal question myself, and following the occasional bouts of detailed discussion between you and Mr Eagles with great enjoyment.
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    As someone who has long advocated Labour abandoning its structural links with the unions I have to say that I am very pleased by today's GMB news. It's the start of a process which, I hope, will see Labour become a much broader based social democratic party and the natural home for all those on the centre left. It will take time, it may even cost the party the next election, but in the end if we emerge with something that has a large membership and is rooted in the realities of the 21st century it will be well worth it.

    Totally agree. Both trade unions and the Labour Party fulfil useful purposes (*); sadly, those purposes diverged decades ago. They both need to be free to concentrate on their core roles.

    (*) Yes, seriously.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013

    Fiona Millar @CIF –“The agony of no school places for five-year-olds: how did we come to this?”

    Top Comment – “Simple, the Labour government allowed uncontrolled immigration of people who have lots of children, they knew the statistics but failed to put in place a building program to cater for those babies who now a few years later need a school place.”

    Bless. There’s hope for the old rag yet – or at least for some of its readers.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/04/primary-school-place-crisis?commentpage=1

    "And the current government, which has been in power for over three years,"
    That was entirely the point she was attempting to make, but without any responsibility given to the past Labour government - Glad to see you acknowledge it was a bit of both.
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    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    Anyone who thinks the rising birth rate was due solely to immigration is a fool.
    But of course the low birthdate in the 80s and nineties made immigration inevitable as I'm sure you understand don't you?

    Inevitable is not the same as uncontrolled.
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    Mr. Chuck, for Hannibal I'd raise the following points:

    Cannae - arguably the greatest battlefield victory in history (nothing Caesar did comes close)
    Lake Trasimene - arguably the greatest ambush in history
    The Alpine March - the most audacious and heroic march in history (even the lesser known Arnus Marshes march is more impressive than anything Caesar did)

    Also, consider the opponents. Pompey was an old man, who paid too much heed to non-combatant advisers (ie the Senate) and was so predictable that at Pharsalus Caesar's 'strategy' was to place a fourth line to see off the inevitable cavalry charge [compare and contrast to Cannae].

    Hannibal did face some ropey opponents, especially early on, but later had to grapple with Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nero, Marcellus and Scipio.

    Ask yourself this: if the two men had met with armies of equal size, who would have won the day? Surely the answer must be Hannibal.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,532
    edited September 2013

    Mr. Chuck, you're quite right. I must've been rather sleepyheaded this morning. I do apologise to Mr. Eagles (although he's still 100% wrong about an oriental despot's boy-toy being a superior general to Hannibal).

    A pleasure for me to have the opportunity for some mid-morning pedantry Mr Dancer.

    Still very much on the fence re the important Caesar/Hannibal question myself, and following the occasional bouts of detailed discussion between you and Mr Eagles with great enjoyment.
    It is very simple.

    Under Hannibal's leadership the seeds were sown for the Carthaginians to be wiped out.

    Under Caesar's leadership the seeds were sown for the Roman Empire.

    The greatest Empire in history until the British Empire.

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    Bit late, but here's the Monza early discussion thread:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/italy-early-discussion.html
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Immigration of skilled and semiskilled workers on a vast scale depressing wage rates of domestic workers?

    Who would have thought that would happen? Certainly not Labour and the Unions!
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Slackbladder

    Not quite so convinced re wage rises. Yes we have seen a credit fueled boom and bust. As we emerge from the bust with a huge debt load we don't want a repeat - so agree that interest rate pressure will be upwards. The BoE can't easily control interest rates any more. Sure they set base rates which affect LIBOR and Carney wants these to be low - but the interest rate governments and businesses and individuals face is really set by the market. It's almost 'who cares what the base rate is'. The gilt yield and mortgage rates are what matters. So I agree that cheap credit may be off the menu.

    But wage rates are driven by supply / demand in the labour market. At the top end demand may outstrip supply for the highly qualified. But in the middle and at the bottom? Not really. What's our unemployment rate now? How much immigration? There's nothing pushing wages up. Also to be competitive internationally we need to not let wages rip. Germany has succeeded at this.

    So...I'm afraid we are likely to see a rising cost of living but not rising wages. Ouch.

    I think you are completely wrong.

    Don't forget that one of the reasons we've been such a magnet for EU-immigration is because other Eurozone countries were in recession. A Romanian will be more likely to stay at home if the local economy is doing OK. And if he is going to move for higher wages, then he'll prefer to stay close to home where he can get a bus back to Bucharest for the weekend for €12. But if the only jobs are in Hammersmith, then he'll trek here. Improving conditions across the Eurozone reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a destination for migrants.

    Anecdote alert: our building contractor has seen his team contract by four of five people over the summer, as Polish and German building activity has heated up. He's struggling to have the people to do all his jobs. Now, I realise this one guy, but it is a reminder that we are more affected - positively and negatively - by our neighbours than we realise.
    Maybe he could, you know... employ someone from this country?
    He's a business person. He bids on contracts. He has a mixed crew of Brits, Poles and assorted others. I suspect the unemployment rate for trained British plumbers in NW3 is 0%.

    But the point is that he bids on contracts. If he was able to get an entirely British crew, then he might have costs 10% higher. He would then win far fewer contracts. He would go out of business. He is acting in an entirely logical manner to maximise his profits.

    Now, tell me. You own music playing equipment in your home. Did you buy Meridian or Linn? They're British-made. If you bought China made audio equipment then you are guilty of choosing to employ a cheap Chinese worker than a British one. You are doing exactly the same as my contractor, except you choose to lecture me.
  • Options

    Mr. Chuck, for Hannibal I'd raise the following points:

    Cannae - arguably the greatest battlefield victory in history (nothing Caesar did comes close)
    Lake Trasimene - arguably the greatest ambush in history
    The Alpine March - the most audacious and heroic march in history (even the lesser known Arnus Marshes march is more impressive than anything Caesar did)

    Also, consider the opponents. Pompey was an old man, who paid too much heed to non-combatant advisers (ie the Senate) and was so predictable that at Pharsalus Caesar's 'strategy' was to place a fourth line to see off the inevitable cavalry charge [compare and contrast to Cannae].

    Hannibal did face some ropey opponents, especially early on, but later had to grapple with Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nero, Marcellus and Scipio.

    Ask yourself this: if the two men had met with armies of equal size, who would have won the day? Surely the answer must be Hannibal.

    You forget the ass kicking he took at Zama.

    Caesar expanded Rome across Europe.

    He's that good they named a month after him.



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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    @tim The problems that there are with primary and secondary places mostly result from there being too much capacity in some areas and too much in others. Whatever the level of immigration, it contributes to this strain on public services and it was a proper understanding of this that the previous government lacked when it ran a open policy. It's not just about numbers, it's about understanding the consequences.
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    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    Anyone who thinks the rising birth rate was due solely to immigration is a fool.
    But of course the low birthdate in the 80s and nineties made immigration inevitable as I'm sure you understand don't you?

    It isn't inevitable. It is more than possible to manage a population decline and I'm sure if put to the vote that is what would have been chosen by the majority rather than mass immigration.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    tim said:

    The only way an Etonian leaves Number Ten

    @Spectator_CH: EXCLUSIVE from @IsabelHardman: Jesse Norman to leave No10 policy board after Syria vote http://t.co/6vh8z7RVLh

    Oddly he was recruited after helping cost the atories the boundary changes


    Be more concerned with what Tom Watson is up to

    "Watson was fulsome (in the correct sense of the word) in praise for the Labour leader when he resigned.

    But then in his Guardian interview, he started to scratch at the Labour leader. He still has significant might within the party, even without a formal role, and a fight from Watson could seriously damage Miliband, especially when he has so few bruisers around him at the moment."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/09/tom-watson-the-labour-man-with-a-plan/
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    JonathanD said:

    tim said:

    The only way an Etonian leaves Number Ten

    @Spectator_CH: EXCLUSIVE from @IsabelHardman: Jesse Norman to leave No10 policy board after Syria vote http://t.co/6vh8z7RVLh

    Oddly he was recruited after helping cost the atories the boundary changes


    Be more concerned with what Tom Watson is up to

    "Watson was fulsome (in the correct sense of the word) in praise for the Labour leader when he resigned.

    But then in his Guardian interview, he started to scratch at the Labour leader. He still has significant might within the party, even without a formal role, and a fight from Watson could seriously damage Miliband, especially when he has so few bruisers around him at the moment."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/09/tom-watson-the-labour-man-with-a-plan/
    To be fair - he's got a good CV if you are looking to remove a party leader :)
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    Mr. Chuck, for Hannibal I'd raise the following points:

    Cannae - arguably the greatest battlefield victory in history (nothing Caesar did comes close)
    Lake Trasimene - arguably the greatest ambush in history
    The Alpine March - the most audacious and heroic march in history (even the lesser known Arnus Marshes march is more impressive than anything Caesar did)

    Also, consider the opponents. Pompey was an old man, who paid too much heed to non-combatant advisers (ie the Senate) and was so predictable that at Pharsalus Caesar's 'strategy' was to place a fourth line to see off the inevitable cavalry charge [compare and contrast to Cannae].

    Hannibal did face some ropey opponents, especially early on, but later had to grapple with Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nero, Marcellus and Scipio.

    Ask yourself this: if the two men had met with armies of equal size, who would have won the day? Surely the answer must be Hannibal.

    Some might contend that the real sign of a truly great general is that he never lets the situation arise where he is meeting an enemy of equal size in open battle.
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    Mr. Tyndall, that's sometimes true but not always. The Cunctator's approach was entirely right for Rome, but Hannibal was also entirely correct to seek battle, as a source of propaganda victory, new arms and to encourage defections from Rome's allies.
  • Options

    Mr. Chuck, for Hannibal I'd raise the following points:

    Cannae - arguably the greatest battlefield victory in history (nothing Caesar did comes close)
    Lake Trasimene - arguably the greatest ambush in history
    The Alpine March - the most audacious and heroic march in history (even the lesser known Arnus Marshes march is more impressive than anything Caesar did)

    Also, consider the opponents. Pompey was an old man, who paid too much heed to non-combatant advisers (ie the Senate) and was so predictable that at Pharsalus Caesar's 'strategy' was to place a fourth line to see off the inevitable cavalry charge [compare and contrast to Cannae].

    Hannibal did face some ropey opponents, especially early on, but later had to grapple with Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nero, Marcellus and Scipio.

    Ask yourself this: if the two men had met with armies of equal size, who would have won the day? Surely the answer must be Hannibal.

    Some might contend that the real sign of a truly great general is that he never lets the situation arise where he is meeting an enemy of equal size in open battle.
    Or appearing on stage apparently. - Watched BBC 4’s ‘Ancient Greece: The Greatest show on Earth’ last night presented by Dr Michael Scott, who looked at the dramatic decline of Athens and the remarkable triumph and transformation of theatre in the 4th century BC. – Heavy stuff, but I did learn that Alexander the Greats old man Phillip II, was stabbed to death whilst taking part in a performance on stage.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited September 2013
    @tim - On the subject of schools, time to pay up, I think:

    With a total of 174 free schools now open, the evidence suggests Michael Gove’s free school programme is taking off

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/09/how-can-labour-respond-to-the-rapid-rise-in-free-schools/
This discussion has been closed.