Basically, he argues that the ready availability of cheap foreign labour lies behind our appalling productivity record. Why do you need to invest in making your current labour more productive when there is an inexhaustible supply? I think economically that makes sense but why would it apply to the UK more than any other EU country? Is it that immigration is more of a practical reality here than elsewhere in Europe?
I would not say it's easy to provide a secure system, even for just 700 people. (Although surely you'd want to extend this to the Lords as well?) And security matters in this case.
But as with all computer systems, don't forget the human factor. It will not be long before stories come out of MPs having pressed the wrong button, of their child / dog / cat having voted by mistake. Of power cuts or Internet outages preventing them from voting. Stories will come out of MPs pleading that they voted differently from the way recorded, and that there is something wrong with the system.
I would be for such a system to be provided for extremis cases: the past stories of people being dragged into the HoC from their deathbeds are not good for them or democracy. Rory Stewart's example of attending a sister's wedding would be another good example, as would an illness. Laziness would not be.
But the current system is the most secure, and gives the public the most visibility. That matters.
Another reason it will not happen is that it gives the whips less power. It's easier to rebel if you don't need to feel their immediate wrath.
The current system has horrible visibility. You don't know how they voted until you get the result from the teller, which they sometimes cock up. The UI is also poor, and MPs sometimes walk through the wrong lobby. No UI is entirely idiot-proof, but you could certainly make an online system that was harder to screw up than the current one.
I disagree. If an MP walks through the wrong lobby (although I suspect that some of these 'accidents' are deliberate) then this should be made clear to their constituency and electorate. In an electronic system you can never be sure which way someone voted: if they are there in person, you can be much more certain.
There are much deeper problems with our democracy than the inability of MPs to reach parliament for a vote. Then there is the issue of MPs listening to debates before voting (yes, I know how empty the chamber gets during debates, but the principle is there).
I'm rabidly against most forms of electronic voting, and I speak as a techie.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
Alan, Tut Tut , you know it would be even better with all those extra foreigners to select from, did your holiday teach you nothing. I am assuming they could get exit visas from their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder ? How about £84billion doesn't get taxed because Brown screwed up CGT and then Margaret Hodge says it's not right despite the fact she voted for it ? Madness cubed.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
They voted as any humane sensible person should , no missiles before you really know what is happening. We have enough trigger happy halfwits in Westminster who love leading from the back and killing as many innocents they can as long as it makes them feel like hard men.
After 200 yrs the census is axed: Critics accuse Gov't of ending ten-yearly headcount to hide truth about immigration http://t.co/pSCb9k5Xpv
I can't believe they are serious about axing the one big quantitative snapshot of the state of the country's demographics. 21C Luddism - Destroy evidence you can't control. Government is simply minimising the chance of outcomes being reported that it doesn't want to hear - or indeed the population to hear.
Nineteenth century censuses are still a mine of useful information today. What will historians of the future have to use?
I disagree. If an MP walks through the wrong lobby (although I suspect that some of these 'accidents' are deliberate) then this should be made clear to their constituency and electorate. In an electronic system you can never be sure which way someone voted: if they are there in person, you can be much more certain.
If you've got their 3-minute YouTube clip which says why they voted that way as well as how, that gives you far more information than you have now.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
Alan, Tut Tut , you know it would be even better with all those extra foreigners to select from, did your holiday teach you nothing. I am assuming they could get exit visas from their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What would be the point post Indy ? Scotland will basically have a civil emergency force and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
The Yougov internals show only modest movements but they suggest that the EU argument is still trending in terms of those who want to leave. The biggest argument for membership has always been that the single market is good for the economy and jobs. We now seem to be at a point where the majority believe the reverse.
It is something to think about for those who like to claim that our press does not have influence any more. The BBC and most of the TV media are strongly in favour of the EU but the papers are the opposite and seem to be winning the argument.
It will not be easy for the tories to squeeze UKIP when these sorts of beliefs are so widespread. My guess is that business, on the whole, remains strongly in favour but that the consequences of free movement of people for those looking for low skilled work in this country are the driver.
Fox , you obviously do not know much about politics in Scotland. The SNP is full of people who used to be Tory , labour and Lib Dem. Many are there because the SNP are the only party that have an interest in Sotland , not there because of independence. Many of the people remaining as Labour , Tory and Lib Dems will vote for independence. The SNP is not just about independence , win or lose they will be running Scotland for a long time.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
They voted as any humane sensible person should , no missiles before you really know what is happening. We have enough trigger happy halfwits in Westminster who love leading from the back and killing as many innocents they can as long as it makes them feel like hard men.
Come off it malc. fat boy Salm is just grandstanding again, all wind no substance.
I disagree. If an MP walks through the wrong lobby (although I suspect that some of these 'accidents' are deliberate) then this should be made clear to their constituency and electorate. In an electronic system you can never be sure which way someone voted: if they are there in person, you can be much more certain.
There are much deeper problems with our democracy than the inability of MPs to reach parliament for a vote. Then there is the issue of MPs listening to debates before voting (yes, I know how empty the chamber gets during debates, but the principle is there).
I'm rabidly against most forms of electronic voting, and I speak as a techie.
Why don't we just hang any MP who does not act like a sheep and follow a misguided and inhumane government plan. Otherwise we could just get rid of MP's and just have a PM who makes the decisions. Your half witted rantings get worse by the day, get help.
"Last year more than £300 million worth of unused prescription drugs were thrown away in England alone. And as if that’s not bad enough, I am afraid the true cost of all the medicine wasted is considerably higher.
When you are dispensing to millions of patients some wastage is inevitable, but the real scandal isn’t that pharmacists and GP surgeries are throwing away drugs that are still in their wrappers, it is what everyone does with the majority of medicines that do get opened.
While some people are good at taking pills, most of us are not. Indeed one leading researcher estimates that as many as 40 per cent of all medication taken for long-term conditions such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure is not taken regularly enough to confer any useful benefit. Why? Well, we must all — patients and healthcare professionals — shoulder our share of the blame..." http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/dr-mark-porter/article3858733.ece
Well, this will make a change from the Nats pretending that YouGov is uniquely biased and Panelbase uniquely balanced - especially when commissioned by the SNP....
Still bumping your gums sad one , you would think you hate Scotland the way you go on and on and on and on, typical Tory
Who is doing the name calling? So you disagree with John Curtice?
"All survey researchers are aware that the responses they get depend can not only depend on the exact wording of the question they ask, but also on what questions have been asked immediately beforehand. There is good reason to believe that this proved important in this case. By prefacing the referendum voting intention poll with two questions that elicited a response favourable to the Yes side, some respondents could well have been cued into saying Yes when they otherwise would not have done so."
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
Alan, Tut Tut , you know it would be even better with all those extra foreigners to select from, did your holiday teach you nothing. I am assuming they could get exit visas from their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What would be the point post Indy ? Scotland will basically have a civil emergency force and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
Alan, I disagree , it has lots of international content and the big factor is always the pipe bands , so it could continue just as well and the rUK could still participate if they were not in the huff so it would be little changed.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
"My parents-in-law were state school teachers — one in maths, the other in history — and the biggest challenge they faced was from the kids at the back of the class, who slouched and pouted and decided that anybody who put their hand up, or seemed fascinated in algebra, or demonstrated the merest interest in the causes of the Second World War, were weirdoes who deserved a good kicking at breaktime or, at the very least, a rapid dispatch into the social outer darkness.
My wife was regularly bullied at school, emotionally and socially, for aspiring to university. She loved ideas, adored getting stuck into maths and science, and found solace from the contempt she faced from her apathetic peers in poetry and literature. Only when she arrived at Oxford in the autumn of 1995 did she realise, with a thunderbolt of joy, that learning was not something to be embarrassed about; that there were other people who were fascinated by ideas and wanted to pursue them.
The general contempt for studiousness, the dweebification of anyone with intellectual curiosity, has been one of the great cultural catastrophes of our times, and the fact that it may be turning around is of far greater importance – emotionally, spiritually and economically – than anything else happening in Britain today. Forget the rate of economic growth, quantitative easing and the minutiae of the changes to the education system. These are trifles relative to the cascade of benefits that will accrue if this step in the direction of geekiness becomes a full-scale stampede. What we need is cultural change; not administrative tinkering. >> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/article3858706.ece
Well, this will make a change from the Nats pretending that YouGov is uniquely biased and Panelbase uniquely balanced - especially when commissioned by the SNP....
Still bumping your gums sad one , you would think you hate Scotland the way you go on and on and on and on, typical Tory
Who is doing the name calling? So you disagree with John Curtice?
"All survey researchers are aware that the responses they get depend can not only depend on the exact wording of the question they ask, but also on what questions have been asked immediately beforehand. There is good reason to believe that this proved important in this case. By prefacing the referendum voting intention poll with two questions that elicited a response favourable to the Yes side, some respondents could well have been cued into saying Yes when they otherwise would not have done so."
Yes I do , he is like a broken record , He has been proven wrong in the past on similar matters. I have yet to ever hear him say anything negative about a NO poll lead.
I care little for the outcome of the referendum next year, provided we get English votes for English Laws out of it.
But independence is the central plank of SNP policy. To not support that shows an electorate that is out of step with its party leadership. If the vote is to stay in the Union as seems likely the SNP is going to have to adapt a whole raft of its ethos.
The Yougov internals show only modest movements but they suggest that the EU argument is still trending in terms of those who want to leave. The biggest argument for membership has always been that the single market is good for the economy and jobs. We now seem to be at a point where the majority believe the reverse.
It is something to think about for those who like to claim that our press does not have influence any more. The BBC and most of the TV media are strongly in favour of the EU but the papers are the opposite and seem to be winning the argument.
It will not be easy for the tories to squeeze UKIP when these sorts of beliefs are so widespread. My guess is that business, on the whole, remains strongly in favour but that the consequences of free movement of people for those looking for low skilled work in this country are the driver.
Fox , you obviously do not know much about politics in Scotland. The SNP is full of people who used to be Tory , labour and Lib Dem. Many are there because the SNP are the only party that have an interest in Sotland , not there because of independence. Many of the people remaining as Labour , Tory and Lib Dems will vote for independence. The SNP is not just about independence , win or lose they will be running Scotland for a long time.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
They voted as any humane sensible person should , no missiles before you really know what is happening. We have enough trigger happy halfwits in Westminster who love leading from the back and killing as many innocents they can as long as it makes them feel like hard men.
Come off it malc. fat boy Salm is just grandstanding again, all wind no substance.
Alan, he is in touch with public opinion yet again, I hear nobody up here wishing to intervene on flimsy made up evidence yet again. Helping one lot of thugs against another lot of thugs has been proven to be a disaster in the past and just lobbing missiles indiscriminately into Syria will not help one bit. Half baked and criminal comes to mind.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
Alan, Tut Tut , you know it would be even better with all those extra foreigners to select from, did your holiday teach you nothing. I am assuming they could get exit visas from their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What would be the point post Indy ? Scotland will basically have a civil emergency force and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
Alan, I disagree , it has lots of international content and the big factor is always the pipe bands , so it could continue just as well and the rUK could still participate if they were not in the huff so it would be little changed.
Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the regiments histories are all unavoidably linked to the UK and the foreign element would decline as the US and others stop sending their A team and palm you off with the Punxsutawney High School Girls Marching Band. And the locals ain't going to pay top dollar to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Well, this will make a change from the Nats pretending that YouGov is uniquely biased and Panelbase uniquely balanced - especially when commissioned by the SNP....
Still bumping your gums sad one , you would think you hate Scotland the way you go on and on and on and on, typical Tory
Who is doing the name calling? So you disagree with John Curtice?
"All survey researchers are aware that the responses they get depend can not only depend on the exact wording of the question they ask, but also on what questions have been asked immediately beforehand. There is good reason to believe that this proved important in this case. By prefacing the referendum voting intention poll with two questions that elicited a response favourable to the Yes side, some respondents could well have been cued into saying Yes when they otherwise would not have done so."
Yes I do , he is like a broken record , He has been proven wrong in the past on similar matters. I have yet to ever hear him say anything negative about a NO poll lead.
Then you clearly missed his comment on the YouGov question in the same article!
Once more, you attack the person, rather than address the substance of the point.
I care little for the outcome of the referendum next year, provided we get English votes for English Laws out of it.
But independence is the central plank of SNP policy. To not support that shows an electorate that is out of step with its party leadership. If the vote is to stay in the Union as seems likely the SNP is going to have to adapt a whole raft of its ethos.
The Yougov internals show only modest movements but they suggest that the EU argument is still trending in terms of those who want to leave. The biggest argument for membership has always been that the single market is good for the economy and jobs. We now seem to be at a point where the majority believe the reverse.
skilled work in this country are the driver.
Fox , you obviously do not know much about politics in Scotland. The SNP is full of people who used to be Tory , labour and Lib Dem. Many are there because the SNP are the only party that have an interest in Sotland , not there because of independence. Many of the people remaining as Labour , Tory and Lib Dems will vote for independence. The SNP is not just about independence , win or lose they will be running Scotland for a long time.
Fox , you are fixated on the voting like sheep in England. Here we vote for what we believe is the best party even if we do not agree with everything. It is not just a choice between Tory and Tory Lite up here. Having a choice other than the usual suspects is a bonus and the fact that they are actually better than the old dinosaurs is even more of a bonus. Time England got a backbone and stopped baaing.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
Alan, Tut Tut , you know it would be even better with all those extra foreigners to select from, did your holiday teach you nothing. I am assuming they could get exit visas from their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What would be the point post Indy ? Scotland will basically have a civil emergency force and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
Alan, I disagree , it has lots of international content and the big factor is always the pipe bands , so it could continue just as well and the rUK could still participate if they were not in the huff so it would be little changed.
Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the regiments histories are all unavoidably linked to the UK and the foreign element would decline as the US and others stop sending their A team and palm you off with the Punxsutawney High School Girls Marching Band. And the locals ain't going to pay top dollar to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer.
Has it been decided what will/would happen to the Royal Regiment of Scotland?
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
You have lost that argument move on
Nope, I haven't. The repercussions of that vote are going to continue, perhaps for many years. Ed has to pray that isn't going to be the case.
Did the SNP MPs not vote against both the Labour and government motions? Edit. They apparently voted for the Labour amendment.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
They voted as any humane sensible person should , no missiles before you really know what is happening. We have enough trigger happy halfwits in Westminster who love leading from the back and killing as many innocents they can as long as it makes them feel like hard men.
Come off it malc. fat boy Salm is just grandstanding again, all wind no substance.
Alan, he is in touch with public opinion yet again, I hear nobody up here wishing to intervene on flimsy made up evidence yet again. Helping one lot of thugs against another lot of thugs has been proven to be a disaster in the past and just lobbing missiles indiscriminately into Syria will not help one bit. Half baked and criminal comes to mind.
I'm against intervention myself but I also know a politician on the make when I see one. This is pure grandstanding to make it seem as if he's somehow relevant. It simply draws attention to the fact that post Indy no other nations would really give a shit what he or the rest of Scotland thinks. It would be like sitting up and taking note of what Belgium says, nobody does - not even the Belgians.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
You have lost that argument move on
Nope, I haven't. The repercussions of that vote are going to continue, perhaps for many years. Ed has to pray that isn't going to be the case.
Not sure about that. If the US goes ahead and bombs you don't have any noticeable repercussions - or to the extent that they happen it'll be untraceable - and if they don't I doubt that the voters will blame Congress voting down military action on Ed Miliband. (Although in reality he'll probably be one of the dominos in the chain that made it happen, the preceding one being Cameron calling the British vote in the first place.)
The exception is if you get another chemical weapon strike before Congress votes.
And don't knock the shortbread. The front of those boxes is the only place you might find evidence of the existence of a Scottish army.
maybe he'll send some tapes of pipe bands in action instead.
As an aside when I was up at Edinburgh Castle last week I thought, post Indy presumably the Tattoo would go. What would be the point ?
their dictatorship mind you to go to that bad foreign wasteland to the north.
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
Alan, I disagree , it has lots of international content and tht in the huff so it would be little changed.
Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the r to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer.
Has it been decided what will/would happen to the Royal Regiment of Scotland?
Presumably they'd stay like that since SNP policy is to reatin the monarchy. But that's the policy this week, next week the policy could be a Republican People's Democracy and the regiment becomes a motorcycle display team with bagpipes. Who knows ?
I think the benefits of the census are under-appreciated and that scrapping it is myopic: very visible cost, harder to see benefit.
It would be a real shame to scrap it. I hope part of the cost/benefit analysis factors in the value of having a once a decade snapshot of the country going back centuries. That continuity is a precious gift to future generations. It's the kind of intangible that those obsessed by cutting to the bones to save comparatively small sums of money tend to overlook. Lose the census and we lose a living link to our past. Don't it always seem to go you don't know what you've got til it's gone ...
If they want to save money they could probably get rid of half the questions and focus on the ones that matter. The last one seemed like it was 50+ pages and pretty burdonsome to fill in - I am sure that much of it was added because civil servants thought "wouldn't it be nice to know..."
Government should be focusing on the important stuff, not the trivia.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
Get a sense of proportion Josias. Syria will at best be a footnote in history. The census is our history.
It does sound as if you are getting your excuses in early for losing the vote.
But even a Union voting Scotland will have quite a realignment politically afterwards, particularly the SNP. Even Salmond is wiley enough to know that.
I care little for the outcome of the referendum next year, provided we get English votes for English Laws out of it.
But independence is the central plank of SNP policy. To not support that shows an electorate that is out of step with its party leadership. If the vote is to stay in the Union as seems likely the SNP is going to have to adapt a whole raft of its ethos.
The Yougov internals show only modest movements but they suggest that the EU argument is still trending in terms of those who want to leave. The biggest argument for membership has always been that the single market is good for the economy and jobs. We now seem to be at a point where the majority believe the reverse.
skilled work in this country are the driver.
Fox , you obviously do not know much about politics in Scotland. The SNP is full of people who used to be Tory , labour and Lib Dem. Many are there because the SNP are the only party that have an interest in Sotland , not there because of independence. Many of the people remaining as Labour , Tory and Lib Dems will vote for independence. The SNP is not just about independence , win or lose they will be running Scotland for a long time.
Fox , you are fixated on the voting like sheep in England. Here we vote for what we believe is the best party even if we do not agree with everything. It is not just a choice between Tory and Tory Lite up here. Having a choice other than the usual suspects is a bonus and the fact that they are actually better than the old dinosaurs is even more of a bonus. Time England got a backbone and stopped baaing.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
You have lost that argument move on
Nope, I haven't. The repercussions of that vote are going to continue, perhaps for many years. Ed has to pray that isn't going to be the case.
Not sure about that. If the US goes ahead and bombs you don't have any noticeable repercussions - or to the extent that they happen it'll be untraceable - and if they don't I doubt that the voters will blame Congress voting down military action on Ed Miliband. (Although in reality he'll probably be one of the dominos in the chain that made it happen, the preceding one being Cameron calling the British vote in the first place.)
The exception is if you get another chemical weapon strike before Congress votes.
You may be right. Indeed, I hope you are right, and that there are no consequences.
One thing has been lost is the ability of the UK to influence American thinking in any strikes. How can Cameron phone up Obama and make suggestions, or have any influence on strategy? Allegedly this system worked quite well in the Libyan intervention, with strategy and targets being robustly discussed between the partners.
But the message is out there: the UK is willing to stand on the sidelines as chemical weapons are used on civilian populations. A consequence of that is that we will find it harder to make a moral stand in any weapons limitations talks.
The fact that some in Labour are calling for a second vote (so far robustly discounted by the government unless facts change) shows that bijohnowls is wrong - it is not over.
I think the benefits of the census are under-appreciated and that scrapping it is myopic: very visible cost, harder to see benefit.
It would be a real shame to scrap it. I hope part of the cost/benefit analysis factors in the value of having a once a decade snapshot of the country going back centuries. That continuity is a precious gift to future generations. It's the kind of intangible that those obsessed by cutting to the bones to save comparatively small sums of money tend to overlook. Lose the census and we lose a living link to our past. Don't it always seem to go you don't know what you've got til it's gone ...
If they want to save money they could probably get rid of half the questions and focus on the ones that matter. The last one seemed like it was 50+ pages and pretty burdonsome to fill in - I am sure that much of it was added because civil servants thought "wouldn't it be nice to know..."
Government should be focusing on the important stuff, not the trivia.
The census had a 94% completion rate, reducing the number of questions is an irrelevance, it would cost the same to collect anyway and reducing the data collected wouldn't push up returns above 94%
That assumes that the 94% are completed accurately, and not filled with nonsense.
Which brings me onto a question: as a matter of interest, how is the data on the completed census forms verified? Do they take a sample and check it?
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder ? How about £84billion doesn't get taxed because Brown screwed up CGT and then Margaret Hodge says it's not right despite the fact she voted for it ? Madness cubed.
Although if Vodafone had had to pay tax then it would not have sold the business, and the income would have continued to be taxed in the US rather than the UK.
As it is, a company can redeploy capital to where it thinks it will build most value for its shareholders and shareholders receive a nice cash and share dividend (on which they will pay tax) and the economy should receive a substantial boost.
Roughtly speaking (I haven't checked the precise numbers):
Proceeds of £84bn 50% in shares and 50% in cash Of the £42bn in cash, 50% is being paid out Of the £21bn paid out, 30% is going to UK shareholders
Hence the government should receive taxable income of let's say 30% (in reality a blend of 0 - 42.5%), so a very handy £2bn or so on the cash element plus £4bn invested in the economy.
They will also receive £2bn on the share element of the consideration, but I would assume most of that will be reinvested into the stock market than spent.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
Get a sense of proportion Josias. Syria will at best be a footnote in history. The census is our history.
I've got a sense of proportion, thanks.
If you read last night you will see that I think scrapping the census is a bad idea, and I would need some fairly convincing arguments to convince me otherwise.
But the use of chemical weapons (especially against civilian populations) is a much larger international problem. I know some on here think that the usage of chemical weapons aren't a problem, but they're just loons.
Still, it's sad that you think hundreds and thousands of deaths will at best be a footnote in history. These foreigners don't matter, do they?
Malc it's very much a british affair, the arena was all UK forces flags and Union flags. What would be the point post Indy ? Scotland will basically have a civil emergency force and fishing police with some bands thrown in. It would just look pathetic.
Alan, I disagree , it has lots of international content and the big factor is always the pipe bands , so it could continue just as well and the rUK could still participate if they were not in the huff so it would be little changed.
Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the regiments histories are all unavoidably linked to the UK and the foreign element would decline as the US and others stop sending their A team and palm you off with the Punxsutawney High School Girls Marching Band. And the locals ain't going to pay top dollar to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer.
Dear Dear Alan, you infected with the too wee too stupid and we only get an audience because we are tied to England now. next you will be saying every cultural event in Scotland will die due to us not being ruled from Westminster , please.
" Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the regiments histories are all unavoidably linked to the UK and the foreign element would decline as the US and others stop sending their A team and palm you off with the Punxsutawney High School Girls Marching Band. And the locals ain't going to pay top dollar to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer."
Dear Dear Alan, you infected with the too wee too stupid and we only get an audience because we are tied to England now. next you will be saying every cultural event in Scotland will die due to us not being ruled from Westminster , please.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
Get a sense of proportion Josias. Syria will at best be a footnote in history. The census is our history.
I've got a sense of proportion, thanks.
If you read last night you will see that I think scrapping the census is a bad idea, and I would need some fairly convincing arguments to convince me otherwise.
But the use of chemical weapons (especially against civilian populations) is a much larger international problem. I know some on here think that the usage of chemical weapons aren't a problem, but they're just loons.
Still, it's sad that you think hundreds and thousands of deaths will at best be a footnote in history. These foreigners don't matter, do they?
You are the loon , a frothing at the mouth "lets nuke em" nutjob
It does sound as if you are getting your excuses in early for losing the vote.
But even a Union voting Scotland will have quite a realignment politically afterwards, particularly the SNP. Even Salmond is wiley enough to know that.
I care little for the outcome of the referendum next year, provided we get English votes for English Laws out of it.
But independence is the central plank of SNP policy. To not support that shows an electorate that is out of step with its party leadership. If the vote is to stay in the Union as seems likely the SNP is going to have to adapt a whole raft of its ethos.
Fox , you obviously do not know much about politics in Scotland. The SNP is full of people who used to be Tory , labour and Lib Dem. Many are there because the SNP are the only party that have an interest in Sotland , not there because of independence. Many of the people remaining as Labour , Tory and Lib Dems will vote for independence. The SNP is not just about independence , win or lose they will be running Scotland for a long time.
Fox , you are fixated on the voting like sheep in England. Here we vote for what we believe is the best party even if we do not agree with everything. It is not just a choice between Tory and Tory Lite up here. Having a choice other than the usual suspects is a bonus and the fact that they are actually better than the old dinosaurs is even more of a bonus. Time England got a backbone and stopped baaing.
Reading conclusions into things is a bit stupid. I think it will be YES, but happy that the Scottish people will decide. No need for excuses from big boys , only children and we can expect plenty from the unionists in rumpUK.
" Nonsense Malc, half the people who go for the Britfest element wouldn't turn up, the regiments histories are all unavoidably linked to the UK and the foreign element would decline as the US and others stop sending their A team and palm you off with the Punxsutawney High School Girls Marching Band. And the locals ain't going to pay top dollar to see a couple of pipe bands when there are enough of them parading through Scotland for free throughout the summer."
Dear Dear Alan, you infected with the too wee too stupid and we only get an audience because we are tied to England now. next you will be saying every cultural event in Scotland will die due to us not being ruled from Westminster , please.
I'm not saying that at all malc, I'm sure the festival will carry on from strength to strength, however like most Nats you don't want to face up to some of the events you run which are british such as the Tattoo just won't be viable since a large chunk of their raison d'etre will have gone. The nats would be more credible if they were prepared to face up and say yeah we'll lose that rather than Eck's Brigadoon land where the sun always shines.
Nothing is madder than Osbornes taxpayer subsidised house price inflation, but this runs it close
@djmgaffneyw4: Replace Census w survey? Most of our surveys already rely on the Census for baseline & weighting. Point about Census is: It's Not A Survey.
Nothing madder?
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
Get a sense of proportion Josias. Syria will at best be a footnote in history. The census is our history.
I've got a sense of proportion, thanks.
If you read last night you will see that I think scrapping the census is a bad idea, and I would need some fairly convincing arguments to convince me otherwise.
But the use of chemical weapons (especially against civilian populations) is a much larger international problem. I know some on here think that the usage of chemical weapons aren't a problem, but they're just loons.
Still, it's sad that you think hundreds and thousands of deaths will at best be a footnote in history. These foreigners don't matter, do they?
You are the loon , a frothing at the mouth "lets nuke em" nutjob
Read my posts from yesterday morning. See the way I've tried to look at both sides, and came up - reluctantly - on the side of intervention. There is no right answer.
Feel free to read those posts and criticise the risks I came up with on both sides of the argument, and the plan I developed from it. But please don't think this is a position I came up without any thought, or that it is a position that I find easy.
Comments
Basically, he argues that the ready availability of cheap foreign labour lies behind our appalling productivity record. Why do you need to invest in making your current labour more productive when there is an inexhaustible supply? I think economically that makes sense but why would it apply to the UK more than any other EU country? Is it that immigration is more of a practical reality here than elsewhere in Europe?
There are much deeper problems with our democracy than the inability of MPs to reach parliament for a vote. Then there is the issue of MPs listening to debates before voting (yes, I know how empty the chamber gets during debates, but the principle is there).
I'm rabidly against most forms of electronic voting, and I speak as a techie.
Nineteenth century censuses are still a mine of useful information today. What will historians of the future have to use?
"Last year more than £300 million worth of unused prescription drugs were thrown away in England alone. And as if that’s not bad enough, I am afraid the true cost of all the medicine wasted is considerably higher.
When you are dispensing to millions of patients some wastage is inevitable, but the real scandal isn’t that pharmacists and GP surgeries are throwing away drugs that are still in their wrappers, it is what everyone does with the majority of medicines that do get opened.
While some people are good at taking pills, most of us are not. Indeed one leading researcher estimates that as many as 40 per cent of all medication taken for long-term conditions such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure is not taken regularly enough to confer any useful benefit. Why? Well, we must all — patients and healthcare professionals — shoulder our share of the blame..." http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/dr-mark-porter/article3858733.ece
"All survey researchers are aware that the responses they get depend can not only depend on the exact wording of the question they ask, but also on what questions have been asked immediately beforehand. There is good reason to believe that this proved important in this case. By prefacing the referendum voting intention poll with two questions that elicited a response favourable to the Yes side, some respondents could well have been cued into saying Yes when they otherwise would not have done so."
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2013/09/snppanelbase-poll-shows-one-point-yes-lead/
How about letting the use of chemical weapons go unchallenged?
Thanks, Ed.
"My parents-in-law were state school teachers — one in maths, the other in history — and the biggest challenge they faced was from the kids at the back of the class, who slouched and pouted and decided that anybody who put their hand up, or seemed fascinated in algebra, or demonstrated the merest interest in the causes of the Second World War, were weirdoes who deserved a good kicking at breaktime or, at the very least, a rapid dispatch into the social outer darkness.
My wife was regularly bullied at school, emotionally and socially, for aspiring to university. She loved ideas, adored getting stuck into maths and science, and found solace from the contempt she faced from her apathetic peers in poetry and literature. Only when she arrived at Oxford in the autumn of 1995 did she realise, with a thunderbolt of joy, that learning was not something to be embarrassed about; that there were other people who were fascinated by ideas and wanted to pursue them.
The general contempt for studiousness, the dweebification of anyone with intellectual curiosity, has been one of the great cultural catastrophes of our times, and the fact that it may be turning around is of far greater importance – emotionally, spiritually and economically – than anything else happening in Britain today. Forget the rate of economic growth, quantitative easing and the minutiae of the changes to the education system. These are trifles relative to the cascade of benefits that will accrue if this step in the direction of geekiness becomes a full-scale stampede. What we need is cultural change; not administrative tinkering. >> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/article3858706.ece
But independence is the central plank of SNP policy. To not support that shows an electorate that is out of step with its party leadership. If the vote is to stay in the Union as seems likely the SNP is going to have to adapt a whole raft of its ethos.
Once more, you attack the person, rather than address the substance of the point.
Professor Curtice is not the broken record......
NO PERSONAL ATTACKS ON PROFESSOR CURTICE
The exception is if you get another chemical weapon strike before Congress votes.
Government should be focusing on the important stuff, not the trivia.
Unlucky chap got his car melted by a skyscraper: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23930675
The solar death ray is much smaller and more effective (and considerably cheaper!).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/09/01/the-5-ways-that-congress-is-splitting-on-syria/
With graphics and everything:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/where-lawmakers-stand-on-syria/
"I'm sure the BBC will be interviewing parents delighted by their choice of new schools..."
But even a Union voting Scotland will have quite a realignment politically afterwards, particularly the SNP. Even Salmond is wiley enough to know that.
One thing has been lost is the ability of the UK to influence American thinking in any strikes. How can Cameron phone up Obama and make suggestions, or have any influence on strategy? Allegedly this system worked quite well in the Libyan intervention, with strategy and targets being robustly discussed between the partners.
But the message is out there: the UK is willing to stand on the sidelines as chemical weapons are used on civilian populations. A consequence of that is that we will find it harder to make a moral stand in any weapons limitations talks.
The fact that some in Labour are calling for a second vote (so far robustly discounted by the government unless facts change) shows that bijohnowls is wrong - it is not over.
And it is not over for the Syrian people, either.
Which brings me onto a question: as a matter of interest, how is the data on the completed census forms verified? Do they take a sample and check it?
As it is, a company can redeploy capital to where it thinks it will build most value for its shareholders and shareholders receive a nice cash and share dividend (on which they will pay tax) and the economy should receive a substantial boost.
Roughtly speaking (I haven't checked the precise numbers):
Proceeds of £84bn
50% in shares and 50% in cash
Of the £42bn in cash, 50% is being paid out
Of the £21bn paid out, 30% is going to UK shareholders
Hence the government should receive taxable income of let's say 30% (in reality a blend of 0 - 42.5%), so a very handy £2bn or so on the cash element plus £4bn invested in the economy.
They will also receive £2bn on the share element of the consideration, but I would assume most of that will be reinvested into the stock market than spent.
If you read last night you will see that I think scrapping the census is a bad idea, and I would need some fairly convincing arguments to convince me otherwise.
But the use of chemical weapons (especially against civilian populations) is a much larger international problem. I know some on here think that the usage of chemical weapons aren't a problem, but they're just loons.
Still, it's sad that you think hundreds and thousands of deaths will at best be a footnote in history. These foreigners don't matter, do they?
Dear Dear Alan, you infected with the too wee too stupid and we only get an audience because we are tied to England now. next you will be saying every cultural event in Scotland will die due to us not being ruled from Westminster , please.
Feel free to read those posts and criticise the risks I came up with on both sides of the argument, and the plan I developed from it. But please don't think this is a position I came up without any thought, or that it is a position that I find easy.