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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hammond looks set to reward the young for turning out in such

SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hammond looks set to reward the young for turning out in such numbers at GE2017

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Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    First!!!!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?

    Given the current state of public finances, all of us can expect to be taxed to the cuttlebone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?

    Given the current state of public finances, all of us can expect to be taxed to the cuttlebone.
    :lol:
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Hammond will not be able to make any real changes.The deficit will not allow him to create winners without also creating losers. And any move that creates losers will result in howls from the Tory backbenches. So stand by for some meaningless tinkering/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?

    Given the current state of public finances, all of us can expect to be taxed to the cuttlebone.
    We risk ending up in a very dark plaice.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Annual tax free pension pot top allowance is £40k - which ca

    Cut that back would only harm those on big earnings - but would it raise much ?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    Looks like kite flying to me. Could, examining, pushed...
    Phil wondering if anyone has any decent ideas, which weren't in the Labour manifesto.
    Anybody?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?

    Given the current state of public finances, all of us can expect to be taxed to the cuttlebone.
    Assume he meant squib.

    But calamari is rather dry and chewy in my experience
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,821

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?
    It's the only way Hammond will get any black ink.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?
    It's the only way Hammond will get any black ink.
    Good shot, Sir.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    Mr Dancer, there is a piece in The Times today in the Sport section, "When death stalked F1 at every turn". It is based on the era of The Good Lady Wifi's film - which they kindly refer to as "one of the best sporting films for years". It's out on DVD 6th November, if you would like to fill a gap in your F1 history....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230
    FPT - this is probably a minority view, but I'd far rather the Duke of Westminster and the Grosvenor family, who have a stake in London and the country dating back centuries, held onto their estates via trusts rather than were taxed to the eyeballs.

    If they were, the Exchequer might get a one-off windfall, and then all the prime London land that was sold off would end up in the hands of largely ex-pat wealthy Russians, Emiratis and Chinese, some of whom are ethically questionable, and have quite a different agenda.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    First it will be a damp squib, 24 hours later it will have fallen apart, 48 hours later it will have been called the () tax and everyone will remember why they didn't want to vote Tory in June.

    The only thing is, 100% of the younger generation are children of the older generation, and v.v. for a substantial proportion of the older generation, and so perhaps Hammond will get away with it if it looks more like a boost to the young, than a raid on the old.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    edited October 2017

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    FPT Inheritance Tax, aristocrats have Roy Jenkins to thank for exempting country houses and their works of art from the tax, in return for being open to the public at various times of the year.

    It would be better, in my view, to make all property subject to IHT, ending the exemptions for woodlands, businesses, agricultural land, country houses, while reducing the rate to, say, 20%.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Royale, indeed.

    Mr. Mark, what's the title?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. F, the rate would only rise when Labour were in (or leaving) office.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255

    Mr. Royale, indeed.

    Mr. Mark, what's the title?

    Mr Dancer, it is "Ferrari - Race to Immortality" (it refers to a quote in the film from Enzo).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Does seem odd having decisively lost the youth vote to now go for the old. But the next election is already lost.. Theresa May's judgement is shot. How could any thinking person sack the reasonably competent Osborne and appoint the useless and malevolent Johnson? I'm sorry but she's lost it
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    edited October 2017

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Not that the boundary thing will happen now.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Mark, best of luck to your lady wife with it :)

    I suspect the market's there for it, what with Rush, Senna and Ferrari's resurgence this year (even though they were horrendously unlucky with the spark plug).
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    Might get some votes from Labour MPs then? ;)
  • The Tories, eh?

    I hear young people like to dance to popular music at venues known as discotheques and that they have mobile telephones on which it is possible to see Internet
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    The Tories, eh?

    I hear young people like to dance to popular music at venues known as discotheques and that they have mobile telephones on which it is possible to see Internet

    Probably my favourite moment on Would I Lie to You

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AivFzvgQPYE
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT - this is probably a minority view, but I'd far rather the Duke of Westminster and the Grosvenor family, who have a stake in London and the country dating back centuries, held onto their estates via trusts rather than were taxed to the eyeballs.

    If they were, the Exchequer might get a one-off windfall, and then all the prime London land that was sold off would end up in the hands of largely ex-pat wealthy Russians, Emiratis and Chinese, some of whom are ethically questionable, and have quite a different agenda.

    Indeed. Attlee took our home and the new owners have demonstrated a whole lot less love for the old place than we ever did
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    If the government published the payback time by university and department for university education - figures they have in the Student Loan Company - only the courses worth attending would survive and the student loan problem would disappear. Nobody would mind paying for a course with a positive payback, nobody could blame anybody but themselves if they took anyother.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    DWP get both barrels from select committee over UC. 4 letters have been sent asking for detailed stats - nothing back.

    wednesday could be interesting...
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    rkrkrk said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
    I agree. The Tories will never be able to make a broad appeal to young people whilst the millstone of Brexit is round their necks. And it will certainly still be there at the next election.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Observer, the Budget may be a "How do you do, fellow kids?" moment.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    What are the leeks saying about Wales?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Hammond will not be able to make any real changes.The deficit will not allow him to create winners without also creating losers. And any move that creates losers will result in howls from the Tory backbenches. So stand by for some meaningless tinkering/

    Sounds like he's going to target those 40-50+ but in work.

    Leaving the pensioners alone.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Charles said:
    :lol:

    Squids, leeks... it's been quite an afternoon.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Sean_F said:


    FPT Inheritance Tax, aristocrats have Roy Jenkins to thank for exempting country houses and their works of art from the tax, in return for being open to the public at various times of the year.

    It would be better, in my view, to make all property subject to IHT, ending the exemptions for woodlands, businesses, agricultural land, country houses, while reducing the rate to, say, 20%.

    The problem with businesses that are not traded (so private SME say or family company) is how do you value you them on day X, and even if you can do that what if there is no cash to actually pay for value Y. You easily end up destroying them to make them liquid to pay the tax of Z (so they are in turn probably not worth the Y anyway at that point), which in absolutely nobody's interest.

    That's why they are (entirely sensibly) exempt.
  • rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    Surely over 65s no longer pay Employee National Insurance?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484
    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,633
    edited October 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    Uniform NI for workers above & below 65, and on PAYE and self employed would be the most equitable situation.
    If you plot those into a 2x2 matrix, the current situation varies wildly for the same income.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,778
    TGOHF said:

    Hammond will not be able to make any real changes.The deficit will not allow him to create winners without also creating losers. And any move that creates losers will result in howls from the Tory backbenches. So stand by for some meaningless tinkering/

    Sounds like he's going to target those 40-50+ but in work.

    Leaving the pensioners alone.

    He better bloody not - I'll head to Europe rather than just selling my skills there...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,880
    Sean_F said:


    FPT Inheritance Tax, aristocrats have Roy Jenkins to thank for exempting country houses and their works of art from the tax, in return for being open to the public at various times of the year.

    It would be better, in my view, to make all property subject to IHT, ending the exemptions for woodlands, businesses, agricultural land, country houses, while reducing the rate to, say, 20%.

    I thought that that exemption was pre-Jenkins.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    TOPPING said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
    Whilst I appreciate your point, there is a real danger for the Tories here. I am 50. If it is a choice between the Party of the Old or Party of the Young, I will instinctively side with the Young.
    Because that's how I want to be seen.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    edited October 2017
    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    I heard Johnson on the 1 o'clock news doing his Billy Bunter The owl of the Remove routine and it was embarrassing. Does anyone apart from HYUFD see anything in him other than an overweight sleazeball?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    TOPPING said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
    *shivers*.... (If you know the Student Union Building in Durham - "Dunelm" - it was not lightly known as Dutch Elm...)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Of course we could just put interest rates up a bit to help lower house prices for the young and improve the buying power of pension pots/reduce company deficits for the old (and the young eventually).
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Boundary 'leeks' - my god how standards have fallen!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484
    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    It’s not the different charges which are the issue. An employer may fall foul of age discrimination legislation if he gets rid of - or doesn’t hire - an older worker because a younger one is cheaper. It may also cause issues under sex discrimination legislation if women who have taken time out to raise their families find it harder to get work.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Charles said:

    There is the danger now that Hammond will have built this up and then on the day it will be a damp squid.

    Aren't all squids damp?

    Given the current state of public finances, all of us can expect to be taxed to the cuttlebone.
    Assume he meant squib.

    But calamari is rather dry and chewy in my experience
    Talking of food, did anyone progress thee PB lunch idea? Saw a lady reading All Out War on the tube today and it reminded me that people are interested in politics in real life too!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    rkrkrk said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
    I agree. The Tories will never be able to make a broad appeal to young people whilst the millstone of Brexit is round their necks. And it will certainly still be there at the next election.
    Not, the youngest of the young.

    However, 38% of 25-34 year olds supported Brexit, as did 48% of 35-44 year olds. And once people turned 42, they were more likely than not to support Brexit.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    You have Callaghan's and Benn's farm for the farming inheritance tax break.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484
    Roger said:

    I heard Johnson on the 1 o'clock news doing his Billy Bunter The owl of the Remove routine and it was embarrassing. Does anyone apart from HYUFD see anything in him other than an overweight sleazeball?

    On this I agree with you entirely. Il n’est pas un homme serieux.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,778

    TOPPING said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
    *shivers*.... (If you know the Student Union Building in Durham - "Dunelm" - it was not lightly known as Dutch Elm...)
    Don't worry it won't be there much longer - there are plans to knock it down and build something less Brutalist....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
    Whilst I appreciate your point, there is a real danger for the Tories here. I am 50. If it is a choice between the Party of the Old or Party of the Young, I will instinctively side with the Young.
    Because that's how I want to be seen.
    Maybe so. I certainly agree that the Tories have a communication block when it comes to young people, but part of the advantage of being no longer a young person is the perspective that comes with that which is something I wouldn't want to exchange just because I still see myself in ripped jeans dancing at one nightclub or another.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    TOPPING said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    No. Nothing to do with being bought. Labour allow older young people to believe that they can relive their students' union days.
    Whilst I appreciate your point, there is a real danger for the Tories here. I am 50. If it is a choice between the Party of the Old or Party of the Young, I will instinctively side with the Young.
    Because that's how I want to be seen.
    Maybe so. I certainly agree that the Tories have a communication block when it comes to young people, but part of the advantage of being no longer a young person is the perspective that comes with that which is something I wouldn't want to exchange just because I still see myself in ripped jeans dancing at one nightclub or another.
    Maybe the Tories need someone like Ali G to communicate with young people.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 940
    Odds on the government resigning in November and a Labour led opposition taking over just in time for Christmas.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    It’s not the different charges which are the issue. An employer may fall foul of age discrimination legislation if he gets rid of - or doesn’t hire - an older worker because a younger one is cheaper. It may also cause issues under sex discrimination legislation if women who have taken time out to raise their families find it harder to get work.
    Fair enough. But doesn't that already apply re minimum wage? As others say though, I'm not entirely sure how having 2 people doing the same job on the same pay being charged different tax rates would help.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,821
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
    I agree. The Tories will never be able to make a broad appeal to young people whilst the millstone of Brexit is round their necks. And it will certainly still be there at the next election.
    Not, the youngest of the young.

    However, 38% of 25-34 year olds supported Brexit, as did 48% of 35-44 year olds. And once people turned 42, they were more likely than not to support Brexit.
    The problem with reading too much into these statistics is that as the weeks go by, 'supporting Brexit' is becoming less and less of a theoretical proposition. The country is losing its Brexit innocence.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr Dancer, there is a piece in The Times today in the Sport section, "When death stalked F1 at every turn". It is based on the era of The Good Lady Wifi's film - which they kindly refer to as "one of the best sporting films for years". It's out on DVD 6th November, if you would like to fill a gap in your F1 history....

    You need to talk to Roger about including the pack shot. What's it bloody called?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138

    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
    I agree. The Tories will never be able to make a broad appeal to young people whilst the millstone of Brexit is round their necks. And it will certainly still be there at the next election.
    Not, the youngest of the young.

    However, 38% of 25-34 year olds supported Brexit, as did 48% of 35-44 year olds. And once people turned 42, they were more likely than not to support Brexit.
    The problem with reading too much into these statistics is that as the weeks go by, 'supporting Brexit' is becoming less and less of a theoretical proposition. The country is losing its Brexit innocence.
    Yet the numbers haven’t budged.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    edited October 2017

    Mr Dancer, there is a piece in The Times today in the Sport section, "When death stalked F1 at every turn". It is based on the era of The Good Lady Wifi's film - which they kindly refer to as "one of the best sporting films for years". It's out on DVD 6th November, if you would like to fill a gap in your F1 history....

    You need to talk to Roger about including the pack shot. What's it bloody called?
    Ferrari - Race to Immortality.

    Here's the link to the trailer!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3e5hGgeNoQ

    EDIT: Peter Collins looks incredibly like my father in the pictures of him from the late fifties.... Really quite spooky.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    PAW said:

    If the government published the payback time by university and department for university education - figures they have in the Student Loan Company - only the courses worth attending would survive and the student loan problem would disappear. Nobody would mind paying for a course with a positive payback, nobody could blame anybody but themselves if they took anyother.

    There is the HESA site for university stats: https://www.hesa.ac.uk/

    One problem is that recruitment is biased. If the best-paying jobs recruit only from Oxbridge or Russell Group or the HR manager's alma mater, then outcomes will be skewed (and any bias on, say, race or class grounds will be perpetuated).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,633

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    I noted this when my Dad was going through some of his business particulars xD
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Interesting. Doesn't seem particularly fair - perhaps that's what Hammond will go after.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    theakes said:

    Odds on the government resigning in November and a Labour led opposition taking over just in time for Christmas.

    I would probably want 300+/1.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    DecrepitJohnL - but those outcomes are real enough, and you ought to know the PPE at the University of ... isn't going to pay, even if PPE at Oxford does.
  • Could Hammond introduce National Insurance for the over 65s?

    Would not hit those on basic old age pension.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,880
    How about a public sector worker who only gets small rises, and has to be regraded to actually get significantly more. Unless they get regraded, which isn't automatic, particulsrly in small units, or move, when they get older their take home will go down.

    Bucket of cold sick comes to mind.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,880
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I suspect this will antagonise the elderly and not assuage the youthful.

    As Nick P (iirc) said the other day - younger people aren't listening to Tories. Just totally not interested in anything they have to say.

    It will have to be a massive splash to make a difference to that I think.
    The appeal of Labour under Corbyn and McDonnell suggests they can be bought though....
    I suspect the young were just as motivated by Hard Brexit/end of FOM/focus on immigration as they were by a tuition fees policy which would only benefit a minority of 18-24 year olds.
    I agree. The Tories will never be able to make a broad appeal to young people whilst the millstone of Brexit is round their necks. And it will certainly still be there at the next election.
    Not, the youngest of the young.

    However, 38% of 25-34 year olds supported Brexit, as did 48% of 35-44 year olds. And once people turned 42, they were more likely than not to support Brexit.
    The problem with reading too much into these statistics is that as the weeks go by, 'supporting Brexit' is becoming less and less of a theoretical proposition. The country is losing its Brexit innocence.
    Yet the numbers haven’t budged.
    Didn't we have some stats the other day which showed that they were starting to?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Wouldn't it just be easier to disenfranchise the under 40s? If that's too extreme, what about making that the under 30s? I'd vote for either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,880
    rkrkrk said:

    theakes said:

    Odds on the government resigning in November and a Labour led opposition taking over just in time for Christmas.

    I would probably want 300+/1.
    We might all get a turkey, though!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Need to charge NI on unearned (investment income) too, to level the playing field fully. (...waits for the squeals!)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,821
    Good letter from Vince Cable responding to David Davis:
    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/919940252801912832
  • felix said:

    Boundary 'leeks' - my god how standards have fallen!

    The welsh ones?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138

    Good letter from Vince Cable responding to David Davis:
    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/919940252801912832

    The absurd position is to complain about a lack of progress while at the same time your MEPs vote against the negotiations continuing. I wonder if they’ll vote against the UK when the final deal is up for a vote.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Benpointer - will pensioners be able to claim the same benefits an under 65 can claim?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Good letter from Vince Cable responding to David Davis:
    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/919940252801912832

    Bloody stupid signature.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Need to charge NI on unearned (investment income) too, to level the playing field fully. (...waits for the squeals!)
    It would be illogical from a theory standpoint, as NI is by defination only associated with employment. Thats one reason why when GO put a charge on dividends, it wasn't NI.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    PAW said:

    If the government published the payback time by university and department for university education - figures they have in the Student Loan Company - only the courses worth attending would survive and the student loan problem would disappear. Nobody would mind paying for a course with a positive payback, nobody could blame anybody but themselves if they took anyother.

    There is the HESA site for university stats: https://www.hesa.ac.uk/

    One problem is that recruitment is biased. If the best-paying jobs recruit only from Oxbridge or Russell Group or the HR manager's alma mater, then outcomes will be skewed (and any bias on, say, race or class grounds will be perpetuated).
    I think the idea is to stop kids paying for crap courses at crap universities. You'll never kill Oxbridge/ Russell Group bias unless you kill the superior quality of what they are perceived to offer.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Benpointer - could a pensioner with dementia get sick pay?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Well NI doesn't realy have anything to do with the NHS at all, it's just general taxation, but is linked in with pension entitlment.

    Really what shoudl happen is NI (employee) should be scrapped and just rolled into income tax.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,821

    Bloody stupid signature.

    He's trolling Tyson with a smiley.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397

    Good letter from Vince Cable responding to David Davis:
    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/919940252801912832

    Bloody stupid signature.
    Question. Do people use their real signatures on documents circulating in the public domain, only to find all their private documents have been signed over to a stranger?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Well NI doesn't realy have anything to do with the NHS at all, it's just general taxation, but is linked in with pension entitlment.

    Really what shoudl happen is NI (employee) should be scrapped and just rolled into income tax.
    Then NI would really be a jobs tax!
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?


    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Interesting. Doesn't seem particularly fair - perhaps that's what Hammond will go after.
    You will probably have maxed your pension contributions before then so paying NI will not bring any benefit and so will be seen by some as unfair - maybe a distinct rate could be introduced. This is a can of worms precisely because short termist politicians have fudged NI and Tax and not told the financial facts of life straight to the electorate. The least painful way forward is a drive for economic growth across all areas of government and the sacrificing of green shibboleths, middle-class nimbyism, foreign aid pretensions, expensive and damaging BS equality and identity politics initiatives and other parasitic practices.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138

    Bloody stupid signature.

    He's trolling Tyson with a smiley.
    It’s yellow, too :o
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    RobD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Well NI doesn't realy have anything to do with the NHS at all, it's just general taxation, but is linked in with pension entitlment.

    Really what shoudl happen is NI (employee) should be scrapped and just rolled into income tax.
    Then NI would really be a jobs tax!
    Well Employee NI, not Employer NI. The two are different.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Perhaps the Universities should stand surety on their student's loans.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138
    edited October 2017

    RobD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Differential NI or income tax for young and older people is an idea I haven't heard before.

    Will it make it more advantageous to hire a younger person rather than an older person?
    Or could it push older people into retirement earlier?

    How will that fit with the laws on age discrimination?
    Awkwardly I imagine in practice. Already some older workers feel/are discriminated against...

    But legally - there is a different minimum wage for different ages, so I'd have thought differential taxation is okay via legislation....
    Doesn't NI end at retirement age, also? Free TV licences. Young Persons Railcard. There are plenty of examples of different charges for different age groups.
    Yes NI must end at retirement if you stop working I think...
    The article says older workers - so presumably before retirement?

    Imagine Hammond is floating ideas to see what goes down badly.
    Not quite, if you continue working past retirement age then you no longer pay employee NI, so it gives working pensioners an 11% pay increase (in addition to your state pension) compared with younger workers.
    Why not charge pensioners earning above the tax threshold (£11-12k/y) full NI on their extra income? They use the NHS. It's a better idea than continuing this attack on the triple-locked state pension, which FFS only costs the UK 5% of GDP.

    Charge millionaires full NI too on their marginal income. Not 2%.

    But I fear politicians prefer gimmicks to solid, sensible reforms of a system full of loopholes and fiddles and too complicated for most people to understand. Osborne and Brown did.
    Well NI doesn't realy have anything to do with the NHS at all, it's just general taxation, but is linked in with pension entitlment.

    Really what shoudl happen is NI (employee) should be scrapped and just rolled into income tax.
    Then NI would really be a jobs tax!
    Well Employee NI, not Employer NI. The two are different.
    If you scrap employee NI all you have left is employer NI :p
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited October 2017

    Wouldn't it just be easier to disenfranchise the under 40s? If that's too extreme, what about making that the under 30s? I'd vote for either.

    The electors of Buckingham constituency are disenfranchised.
This discussion has been closed.