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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson – On the Lobbying Bill

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ben Thompson @BBCBenThompson
    To put today's GDP revision into a bit of context. UK saw growth of +0.7% in second quarter. Eurozone +0.3%, USA +0.4%, Japan +0.6% @BBCNews
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    DavidL said:



    Do newspapers spend money on politics? They sell their product. I suppose if they donated advertising space the answer would be yes but not because they have expressed a view in a product they are selling.

    But that sort of argument is the problem. If there is a definitive exemption for newspapers, then the legislation is a doddle to get round - UNISON launches "Public Service News", takes some adverts on this and that (why not?) but editorially and in article coverage is heavily critical of the Tories. They then distribute it to all homes in marginal seats. The Countryside Alliance launches "Rural Champion", etc.

    But if there isn't a blanket exemption, but it depends on the case, then we're back with trying to guess what the courts will do. And uncertainty is usually worse than bad law.

    Nick I won't dispute that there may be definition problems in this but there is a pretty obvious difference between a free sheet (especially one created for an election or only distributed in marginals) and newspapers such as the Telegraph and the Express which are sold in the main and available nationally.

    That said I am moving towards Richard's viewpoint, maybe we should just forget spending limits altogether. The big difference between the US and here is the limits on political advertising on the TV and radio. Without that there is a limit to what can be usefully spent anyway although the tories now have an advisor who may have some good ideas!

    Do you dispute Richard's point that the current system is simply not fair?
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Populus @PopulusPolls
    New Populus VI figures: Lab 38 (=); Cons 30 (-2); LD 12 (=); UKIP 12 (+1); Oth 7 (-1) Tables here: popu.lu/s_vi230813
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited August 2013
    antifrank said:

    This is all a bit of a mess.

    But unless we wish to allow the same nonsense as they have in the US with super PACS, some form of control on political expenditure by those not directly taking part in elections is required.

    We cannot have the restrictions on fund-raising and campaigning by political parties so easily circumvented.

    Perhaps this comparison indicates the way ahead.

    The most obvious difference between political campaigning in the US and the UK is the ban on political TV advertising in the UK. More than anything else this reduces the extent to which political parties or third parties can influence an election campaign by throwing lots of money at it.

    The next step to take, if one wanted to take another step, would be to outlaw political cold-calling by phone.

    This would still leave leaflet delivery, billboard adverts and doorstep canvassing, etc, but I think it cuts down on the most obvious way in which a third-party organisation could throw money at an election campaign.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "Many are scratching their heads as to how Tory Europhile turncoat Janice Atkinson (nee Small) is seen as the third most competent MEP candidate behind Nigel Farage and Paul Nuttall. She spent years working for Tim Yeo and was always seen as on the dripping wet side of the Tory Party, and yet here she is, a dead cert to become a UKIP MEP. It’s a funny old world. She is two places above Easteligh by-election candidate Diane James, widely considered to be the best candidate UKIP has ever put forward."

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thecolumnists/2013/08/from--2.html
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    John Rentoul @JohnRentoul
    Labour overtakes Lib Dems as party that "seems to chop and change all the time" since 7-8 Aug YouGov pic.twitter.com/85gAqer0YX
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402
    Most of my knowledge about the pros and cons of HS2 has come from this site where there are a number of contributors with exceptional insight and relevant experience.

    Having said all that I thought Darling was pretty persuasive this morning on R4. There must be better uses for money we don't really have than this.

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Ahh, now the reason for HenryG's article attacking the Bill becomes clear, many thanks to @DavidL for his measured post highlighting this point.

    DavidL said:

    This provides a slightly more objective view on the purposes and intentions of the bill: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0097/en/14097en.htm

    This is not a level playing field and if we are to keep spending limits it seems unreasonable to me to discount the cost of a poster beceause it is paid for by Unite instead of Labour itself.

    Exactly, and I would suggest that any exposure of the financial and political assistance given to political parties by so called ‘charities’ and institutions that this lobbying bill may curtail is Herny’s greatest fear.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    edited August 2013
    To respond to David H: I agree that we need to prevent SuperPACs getting round the spending limits. But much though party people like him and me hate to admit it, the problem is that independent groups genuinely don't fit neatly into party categories. There is a range from the more or less naked "front" organisations like the British Industrialists Council or whatever it was called that used to funnel anonymous money to Tories, to completely apolitical bodies like the CPRE who enter the political domain with evident distaste to express a view on someone's proposals. In between you've got the unions, Taxpayers' Alliance, and all the rest who have strong political views that don't fit entirely neatly into one party.

    It's unnatural and undesirable to force all organisations to line up behind one party or another or otherwise say nothing on their subject of interest for a year. And it's actually the hard-to-classify groups who will suffer most, isn't it? If Unison really wants to help Labour and aren't allowed to help indirectly, they'll simply give us money. But the CPRE wouldn't be seen dead giving money to a party, and why should they? Yet if one party favours green belt development and another opposes it, how can they not express a view without negating their reason for existence? And yet, when they've spent £32,000 (say 4 staff working on a a few leaflets), they'd apparently need to ask the Tory Party permission to continue.

    The solution, I think, is to limit the law to campaigns that are explicitly linked to persuading people to vote one way or another. If the CPRE were to campaign to say they didn't like our policies on something, I wouldn't necessarily like it, but as long as they didn't say "and so, vote for a party that doesn't support these things", I could live with it. It's the nebulous catch-all nature of the legislation, potentially covering anyone who expresses a view about anything, that makes it, well, a bit Zimbabwean in its potential for misuse - not really by the Government but by the courts in a way that we can't really predict.

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,011
    P1's over, P2 starts at 1pm.

    Didn't learn too much. McLaren may've made a step forward, and there'll be an interesting split regarding low/high downforce setups and whether teams go for 1 or 2 stops in the race. Lotus could be the odd team, as they're running a high downforce wing (much more so than the ultra-skinny Red Bull wing) but are hoping to use their double-DRS (at long last, it's been in development for a year or more).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    DavidL said:

    Most of my knowledge about the pros and cons of HS2 has come from this site where there are a number of contributors with exceptional insight and relevant experience.

    Having said all that I thought Darling was pretty persuasive this morning on R4. There must be better uses for money we don't really have than this.

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    Any alternative rail scheme compared to HS2 runs into significant cost problems. As the WCML upgrade shows, trying to increase capacity and line speed on existing lines is massively expensive and has significant downsides wrt local traffic and upheavals.

    As I said below, perhaps we should start asking questions about why infrastructure projects cost so much in the UK in comparison to Europe. ISTR that HS1 was, mile-for-mile, the most expensive high-speed line in Europe at (ISTR) £50 million per KM. (figures from a probably-faulty memory)

    In other news, I saw a sign the other day that the Lion Yard toilets in Cambridge are being overhauled. The cost: £300,000 for about 30 toilets/urinals (including disabled facilities). This is a renovation, not a new-build.

    https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/lion-yard-public-toilet-refurbishment

    I know civil engineering can be expensive, but how can such a project cost that much? My mind boggles ...
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.

    Except that the credible alternatives, as regards the economy, would be very similar indeed.

    As someone in the unlikely place of the Guardian CiF comments said a couple of weeks ago [I'm quoting from memory], "There's a very simple reason why no-one on the left has been able to articulate a convincing alternative to what Osborne is doing: there isn't one".
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Plato said:

    John Rentoul @JohnRentoul
    Labour overtakes Lib Dems as party that "seems to chop and change all the time" since 7-8 Aug YouGov pic.twitter.com/85gAqer0YX

    Yes, and there's a 9-point change suggesting that people think the Government's policies are bad for the economy, and loads of other shifts - this is actually virtually the only one negative for Labour. It's silly to pick out one as being especially significant...and, with respect, a veteran party member like you should know it :-).
    DavidL said:

    <

    Nick I won't dispute that there may be definition problems in this but there is a pretty obvious difference between a free sheet (especially one created for an election or only distributed in marginals) and newspapers such as the Telegraph and the Express which are sold in the main and available nationally.

    That said I am moving towards Richard's viewpoint, maybe we should just forget spending limits altogether. The big difference between the US and here is the limits on political advertising on the TV and radio. Without that there is a limit to what can be usefully spent anyway although the tories now have an advisor who may have some good ideas!

    Do you dispute Richard's point that the current system is simply not fair?

    The Evening Standard is a freesheet sold only in London, tending to support Tories. City AM is a freesheet distributed in relatively small numbers here and there, tending to support a more right-wing position than Tories. China Daily is a freesheet distributed in very small numbers including some street stands, enthusiastically supporting Chinese Communism. Are you confident that you can distinguish these in law from, say, the Evening Briton, a hypothetical freesheet distributed in London attacking immigration and warmly noting UKIP's policies on the issue?

    I agree with Richard that there's a problem, but letting everyone spend anything like the US seems to me quite mad - does anyone really think the US system is one to go for? I much prefer Oblitus's approach of cutting down the things that the money can be spent on, starting with cold calls. (If rich people want to fund the parties to get good advice, fine.)

    Anyway, must get back to work, so I'll leave it there...
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And that's a slapdown

    DH Media Centre @DeptHealthPress
    To any worried @DailyMirror readers, there is no intention to send NHS patients to India for treatment.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.

    Except that the credible alternatives, as regards the economy, would be very similar indeed.

    As someone in the unlikely place of the Guardian CiF comments said a couple of weeks ago [I'm quoting from memory], "There's a very simple reason why no-one on the left has been able to articulate a convincing alternative to what Osborne is doing: there isn't one".
    Quoting yourself is a bad habit to get into! Whilst I agree that the macro framework would inevitably be very similar to Osborne's there are still important disagreements. What should the highest rate of tax be? Should taxes be increased now that the economy is recovering rather than implementing yet more rounds of cuts? Have we really given up on universal benefits? If not, why not? Why are we throwing money at rich pensioners? Can we make enough cuts elsewhere to fund a public sector house buildng program and do we want to? What are our spending priorities, do we really need a ring fence around the NHS and foreign aid?



    The last is the key. By living in La La land an Ed Miliband led party is simply not acknowledging the existence of the very hard choices they will have to make if they win the next election. Either they will get away with that, in which case his government will fall into chaos very quickly, or enough people will conclude this does not add up and he will lose. Darling, in my judgement, would address these questions (within the usual political limits) and give a real choice.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Much of the rail capacity problems are on commuter lines, like the famous Southend misery line.

    My objection to HS2 is that it is not very green (efficiency drops quite markedly with higher speeds in trains as much as cars) and that it stops in too few places. If some of the Ciltern and Oxon etc got new stations on new lines to get to London and Bham they would be much happier, not least as house prices would rise and they could commute more easily. At the moment these communities get all of the downside and none of the upside.

    Build new rail lines by all means, but conventional speeds are greener and more useful.

    DavidL said:

    Most of my knowledge about the pros and cons of HS2 has come from this site where there are a number of contributors with exceptional insight and relevant experience.

    Having said all that I thought Darling was pretty persuasive this morning on R4. There must be better uses for money we don't really have than this.

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    Any alternative rail scheme compared to HS2 runs into significant cost problems. As the WCML upgrade shows, trying to increase capacity and line speed on existing lines is massively expensive and has significant downsides wrt local traffic and upheavals.

    As I said below, perhaps we should start asking questions about why infrastructure projects cost so much in the UK in comparison to Europe. ISTR that HS1 was, mile-for-mile, the most expensive high-speed line in Europe at (ISTR) £50 million per KM. (figures from a probably-faulty memory)

    In other news, I saw a sign the other day that the Lion Yard toilets in Cambridge are being overhauled. The cost: £300,000 for about 30 toilets/urinals (including disabled facilities). This is a renovation, not a new-build.

    https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/lion-yard-public-toilet-refurbishment

    I know civil engineering can be expensive, but how can such a project cost that much? My mind boggles ...
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat.

    Of course you would. You are a tory. Darling was given a standing ovation by scottish tory activists. That you don't realise how that may be problematic for a labour politician in scotland (to say the least) is only to be expected.

    The main reason a Blairite like Darling became adored by tories is that he was useful to them when he prominently attacked Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting tore labour apart before the last election. Now he's turning his fire on little Ed they are hardly going to complain.

    Even more amusingly, if Darling were suddenly promoted to shadow chancellor right now then the tories joy could only be matched if Brown himself was made a shadow minister. Brown and Darling are self-evidently the two most prominent senior labour politicians associated with the economic disaster. Even Crosby would be hard pressed to f**k up a campaign with Darling and little Ed as the centrepiece to hammering the message 24/7 that a vote for little Ed and Brown's chancellor would be a vote for a return to the failed Brown era that risked another possible economic crash.

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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "4 by elections in total yesterday
    combined vote share was

    LAB 40%
    CON 22.7%
    UKIP 19%
    LD 7.4%
    IND 4.7%
    GREEN 2.7%
    ENG DEM 1.8%
    TUSC 1.6%"

    https://twitter.com/UKELECTIONS2015/status/370830601957281792
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The ONS do great charts

    http://t.co/QP2xJ59IdF
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402
    I have just seen the England batting line up for today and Woakes is intended to come in before Prior at 6. We really should be told what the selectors inhalled before this test. I have serious doubts as to whether it was a legal substance.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If there was any doubt that ConHome is full of Kippers

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thecolumnists/2013/08/from--2.html#idc-cover
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    But he seems to have learned a bit since, unlike some!
    Mick_Pork said:

    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat.

    Of course you would. You are a tory. Darling was given a standing ovation by scottish tory activists. That you don't realise how that may be problematic for a labour politician in scotland (to say the least) is only to be expected.

    The main reason a Blairite like Darling became adored by tories is that he was useful to them when he prominently attacked Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting tore labour apart before the last election. Now he's turning his fire on little Ed they are hardly going to complain.

    Even more amusingly, if Darling were suddenly promoted to shadow chancellor right now then the tories joy could only be matched if Brown himself was made a shadow minister. Brown and Darling are self-evidently the two most prominent senior labour politicians associated with the economic disaster. Even Crosby would be hard pressed to f**k up a campaign with Darling and little Ed as the centrepiece to hammering the message 24/7 that a vote for little Ed and Brown's chancellor would be a vote for a return to the failed Brown era that risked another possible economic crash.

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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    DavidL said:

    I have just seen the England batting line up for today and Woakes is intended to come in before Prior at 6. We really should be told what the selectors inhalled before this test. I have serious doubts as to whether it was a legal substance.

    He has six first-class hundreds to his name. I'm rather hoping that his batting will prove to be superior to his bowling (1-96 at 4 an over).
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    POLWAS

    "Today's revised estimate of second-quarter growth, up from 0.6pc to 0.7pc, is terrible news. For the doom-mongers with their warnings that the recovery is being built on another consumer debt bubble, at least. That’s not to say they don’t have reason to be worried, but the official figures provide nothing to support their argument.

    The Treasury is cock-a-hoop, even daring to add a new clause to its tired “rescue to recovery” mantra – that the recovery is being “supported by balanced growth across the economy”. It was the verbal equivalent of jabbing the doubters in the eye. For weeks now, the Chancellor’s critics have been arguing that growth is being driven by unsustainable household consumption, and that the long-awaited rebalancing to exports and investment has been abandoned.

    But the Office for National Statistics’ figures told the opposite story. Of the 0.7pc growth, 0.3pc came from trade and 0.2pc from investment. Only 0.2pc was from consumption. But there was more. Manufacturing grew by 0.7pc, rather than the 0.4pc estimated last month. Construction, too, is doing better than thought. The troubled sector expanded by 1.4pc in the three months to June, above the 0.9pc estimated in July.

    The figures also laid to rest the worst fears about debt-fuelled household spending. In the first quarter, consumption rose despite a fall in incomes – suggesting that households were delving into their savings and borrowing more. An alternative explanation was that pay, particularly bonuses, was being delayed until after the top rate of tax dropped from 50p to 45p in April... >> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/philipaldrick/100025408/the-economys-slow-but-steady-growth-is-terrible-news-for-the-doom-mongers/
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    Was he really that prominent as a youth (wiki says he joined Labour at 23)?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    But he seems to have learned a bit since, unlike some!

    Mick_Pork said:

    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat.

    Of course you would. You are a tory. Darling was given a standing ovation by scottish tory activists. That you don't realise how that may be problematic for a labour politician in scotland (to say the least) is only to be expected.

    The main reason a Blairite like Darling became adored by tories is that he was useful to them when he prominently attacked Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting tore labour apart before the last election. Now he's turning his fire on little Ed they are hardly going to complain.

    Even more amusingly, if Darling were suddenly promoted to shadow chancellor right now then the tories joy could only be matched if Brown himself was made a shadow minister. Brown and Darling are self-evidently the two most prominent senior labour politicians associated with the economic disaster. Even Crosby would be hard pressed to f**k up a campaign with Darling and little Ed as the centrepiece to hammering the message 24/7 that a vote for little Ed and Brown's chancellor would be a vote for a return to the failed Brown era that risked another possible economic crash.

    Yep, even later he came from the Brown faction rather than the Blairite. Of course he would be attacked for his record, that's politics and it's a rough trade, but I think he could overcome that. By the time he was Chancellor the seeds were sown and starting to break the surface. You would honestly be as well blaming Osborne for having to borrow money when he took over. Oh, I forgot...

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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
    Yes he is.
    A reminder to the tory spinners living in La La land just how "sensible and honest" Clegg thought Darling was. This would be the same Clegg who is the only reason Cameron is PM.
    Nick Clegg calls for Alistair Darling to quit over expenses claims

    Alistair Darling came under fresh pressure to quit as chancellor yesterday when the Liberal Democrat leader, Nick Clegg, said he should be sacked for profiting from his parliamentary expenses.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/31/liberal-democrats-chancellor-parliamentary-expenses
    Those thinking that there may be some prize quotes from Cameron and his shadow cabinet on just how "sensible and honest" Darling was, are of course absolutely right. :)
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    The Evening Standard is a freesheet sold only in London....

    Sven....

    IngSoc on your mind...?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402

    DavidL said:

    I have just seen the England batting line up for today and Woakes is intended to come in before Prior at 6. We really should be told what the selectors inhalled before this test. I have serious doubts as to whether it was a legal substance.

    He has six first-class hundreds to his name. I'm rather hoping that his batting will prove to be superior to his bowling (1-96 at 4 an over).
    Talk about setting the bar low!

    Kerrigan is presumably a world class batsman. After all he can't bowl at all.

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Darling was definitely on the hard left at Aberdeen Uni and then in the early days of his political career in Edinburgh following his very privileged education at Lorreto. I hadn't realised that Norman Lamont, Fergus Ewing and Andrew Marr were also former pupils.

    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    But he seems to have learned a bit since, unlike some!

    Mick_Pork said:

    DavidL said:

    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat.

    Of course you would. You are a tory. Darling was given a standing ovation by scottish tory activists. That you don't realise how that may be problematic for a labour politician in scotland (to say the least) is only to be expected.

    The main reason a Blairite like Darling became adored by tories is that he was useful to them when he prominently attacked Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting tore labour apart before the last election. Now he's turning his fire on little Ed they are hardly going to complain.

    Even more amusingly, if Darling were suddenly promoted to shadow chancellor right now then the tories joy could only be matched if Brown himself was made a shadow minister. Brown and Darling are self-evidently the two most prominent senior labour politicians associated with the economic disaster. Even Crosby would be hard pressed to f**k up a campaign with Darling and little Ed as the centrepiece to hammering the message 24/7 that a vote for little Ed and Brown's chancellor would be a vote for a return to the failed Brown era that risked another possible economic crash.

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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Plato said:

    And that's a slapdown

    DH Media Centre @DeptHealthPress
    To any worried @DailyMirror readers, there is no intention to send NHS patients to India for treatment.

    No wonder their readers are confused – only the Mirror could so brazenly dress up the wittering of an ex Labour MP as a present Government proposal.

    DMail - The former Labour health secretary Patricia Hewitt said yesterday. ‘NHS patients could be operated on in India to make huge savings for the health service. Mrs Hewitt, chairman of the UK India Business Council, said: ‘Our ambition is to get as many (NHS trusts, UK health companies and charities) there as we can.’


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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013

    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    But he seems to have learned a bit since, unlike some!

    Instead of the far distant memories of shocking PB tory recollections that a labour politician was far more left wing decades ago, precisely which parts of my post are untrue?

    Darling very publicly arguing with Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting broke out?
    Brown and Darling being THE most prominent labour politicians associated with the economic crash?
    Darling now turning his attention to little Ed as the Falkirk fallout continues?
    Crosby planning a campaign which will hammer home the message that labour can't be trusted with the economy again? Or that Brown's Chancellor Darling, who was in charge of the economy, becoming prominent again would be an unbelievable gift to that campaign?

    Or maybe you think it really is helpful to a labour politician in scotland to be praised by tories and given a standing ovation by tory activists? The scottiish tory surgers seem to and when are they ever wrong? ;)

    Take your time.
    I'm eager to learn whether there is the slightest bit of substance to your 'analysis'.



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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2013
    Respected anti-fascist campaigners Hope Not Hate

    Not respected by me. Under cover of 'opposing hatred' their real intent is to shut down UKIP, a mainstream political party.

    In addition to all the wailing about the BNP and the EDL there is a 'UKIP blog'. Clearly anything outside the orthodoxy of extreme political correctness will not do and should be shouted down with sheep like cries of 'racist'
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Populus figures seem to be confirming that,as we all suspected, there's been little or no poll movement while the PB Tories have been spouting rather hysterically during the summer

    LOL. You should be talking to your own side matey. It's labour politicians who are having a giant hissy fit moan about Ed's performance, not the cons. We know we face a very uphill task.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    taffys said:

    Respected anti-fascist campaigners Hope Not Hate

    Not respected by me. Under cover of 'opposing hatred' their real intent is to shut down UKIP, a mainstream political party.

    In addition to all the wailing about the BNP and the EDL there is a 'UKIP blog'. Clearly anything outside the orthodoxy of extreme political correctness will not do and should be shouted down with sheep like cries of 'racist'

    I think Mr Farage described them as a Labour Party front, and said he had written to Mr Miliband asking him to rein them in.

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Have you forgotten it was David Cameron who has branded them racists and refused to withdraw it?''

    Do I have to explain the difference between a one off comment from a politician and a pressure group?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am not disagreeing with your analysis. Darling is clearly on the right of the party now.

    Trotskyites and Communists often become more mainstream with time and maturity. The tendency of older people to be more right wing is not a generational thing, it recurrs every generation.
    Mick_Pork said:

    Showing my age a bit, but I remember Darling when he was a member of the hard left and IMG Trotskyite.

    But he seems to have learned a bit since, unlike some!

    Instead of the far distant memories of shocking PB tory recollections that a labour politician was far more left wing decades ago, precisely which parts of my post are untrue?

    Darling very publicly arguing with Brown as the Blairite Brownite infighting broke out?
    Brown and Darling being THE most prominent labour politicians associated with the economic crash?
    Darling now turning his attention to little Ed as the Falkirk fallout continues?
    Crosby planning a campaign which will hammer home the message that labour can't be trusted with the economy again? Or that Brown's Chancellor Darling, who was in charge of the economy, becoming prominent again would be an unbelievable gift to that campaign?

    Or maybe you think it really is helpful to a labour politician in scotland to be praised by tories and given a standing ovation by tory activists? The scottiish tory surgers seem to and when are they ever wrong? ;)

    Take your time.
    I'm eager to learn whether there is the slightest bit of substance to your 'analysis'.



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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    taffys said:

    Respected anti-fascist campaigners Hope Not Hate

    Not respected by me. Under cover of 'opposing hatred' their real intent is to shut down UKIP, a mainstream political party.

    In addition to all the wailing about the BNP and the EDL there is a 'UKIP blog'. Clearly anything outside the orthodoxy of extreme political correctness will not do and should be shouted down with sheep like cries of 'racist'

    I have zip time for Hope not Hate or the UAF - they're all as bad as each other trying to shut down debate so they can have their views spouted instead. I was extremely disappointed when Cameron sided with the UAF - they're no less mob rule than the EDL or anti-capitalist flying pickets at Balcombe.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    First we had little Egg Miliband, now we have a return to the glorious photo-ops of the fop.

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02651/cameron-2-way_2651184b.jpg

    A beer promotional deal can't be far away. ;^ )

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Kippers with no sense of humour - look away now

    NigellaFarage @NigellaFarage
    People criticise Godfrey Bloom for his views, but he's a Grand Wizard in the kitchen. His Potato Waffens are to die for!

    NigellaFarage @NigellaFarage
    Presentation can say a lot about your personality. For example, when making a fry-up I like to serve the black pudding on a separate plate

    NigellaFarage @NigellaFarage
    Hygiene is a crucial part of cookery, which is just one reason why I never eat in French restaurants
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    OT Your life in their hands - yikes - the wooden 90yrs old rollercoaster

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z9QH3WJuXuo
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Porky and tim obviously have toned torso's...shame no-one wants to see them.. There must be some other sites where these two can gaze longingly at semi clad men..
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    edited August 2013
    @tim


    Interesting looking at the Populus figures. If it wasn't for the over 65's the Tories would be out for the count.In every other age group they are nowhere. One cold winter and they'll be overtaken by the Libs!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    The energy efficiency of high-speed rail is much more complex than the aerodynamic rule-of-thumb that doubling the speed quadruples the power needed. Higher speeds require more power, but it it nowhere near as bad as that. Going from 200KPH to 400 KPH roughly doubles the energy, not quadruples.

    See https://www.uic.org/download.php/publication/526E.pdf for a study that includes real-life examples. This document is particularly good reading if you are interested in the subject, or need a good sleep.

    For instance, increasing line speeds on steep gradients actually increases efficiency. Energy recovery in braking also makes a big difference; the faster the train is going, the more efficiently the energy is returned to the grid.

    High-speed trains are often longer, and longer trains suffer far less aerodynamic drag.

    There are many more factors that the document goes into in great detail, including manufacture of the trains.

    ISTR that some French high-speed lines have a current maximum speed below the maximum routinely capable by the train or line. This has been a trade-off between the cost of going faster, and getting the best number of passengers in. If that balance improves, the trains can be sped up at no infrastructure cost.

    Conventional lines have a use, but run into the fundamental inconsistency between running fast trains and slow local and freight trains. Think of a Ferrari following a stopping schoolbus on a single-track road and you see the problem. A dedicated high-speed line improves capacity not just in the extra paths, but in other ways. For instance, faster trains generally need greater stopping distances, meaning signalling blocks are longer. Remove the fast trains and you can have smaller blocks, and fit more trains (paths) in.

    Much of the rail capacity problems are on commuter lines, like the famous Southend misery line.

    My objection to HS2 is that it is not very green (efficiency drops quite markedly with higher speeds in trains as much as cars) and that it stops in too few places. If some of the Ciltern and Oxon etc got new stations on new lines to get to London and Bham they would be much happier, not least as house prices would rise and they could commute more easily. At the moment these communities get all of the downside and none of the upside.

    Build new rail lines by all means, but conventional speeds are greener and more useful.

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Do tories love the postal vote? .. or is this another of the Cheshire farmers fantasies, along with gazing adoringly at the PM in a swimsuit..
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''If it wasn't for the over 65's the Tories would be out for the count.In every other age group they are nowhere. One cold winter and they'll be overtaken by the Libs!''

    Agreed and its a shame so many senior labour figures can't see this. Why oh why won;t they just shut up and get behind ed....???
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @richarddodd

    I can't think of any Tories PB or otherwise who are keen on postal votes - the overwhelming view is that they're open to manipulation by those who want to defraud, to Heads of Households in families where females don't have much of a voice and discourage the active participation in actually going along on the day to exercise their right in person.

    In the same way that most Tories were against AV despite maybe being advantaged by it - its a principle thing.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Top stories according to non-anoraks this week

    https://twitter.com/PopulusPolls/status/370868367113998337
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited August 2013
    Postal votes should only be for those UNABLE to get to the polling station on polling day.. not for the lazy or the can't be ars*d brigade.. Present yourself with some form of ID and then you can vote...just the once tho.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Welcome positive revision to GDP this morning!

    C'mon UK PLC! Here we go! Here we go! Here we go! etc....

    In other news, another dearly held rightwing meme goes down the pan:

    @SimonFParker
    Independent research shows the BBC gives more airtime to the right than the left and pro-EU voices v sparse @RyanCPS https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028

    A rather more scientific study than the laughable Centre for Policy Studies one.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,281
    edited August 2013

    I am not disagreeing with your analysis. Darling is clearly on the right of the party now.

    Trotskyites and Communists often become more mainstream with time and maturity. The tendency of older people to be more right wing is not a generational thing, it recurrs every generation.

    I think Darling is overrated, the more so the closer you get to the M25, but the evidence he was a Trot is pretty flimsy. If it were true it might actually indicate something interesting amongst the acres of Edinburgh solicitor blandness.

    'Denying he had ever joined the International Marxist Group, the Trotskyist faction that was gaining momentum at the time, Darling added: “I’ve become less left-wing than I was, but I was never a Trot.”'

    http://tinyurl.com/lkunxqg

    Still, PB Tories think Ed M. has the characteristics of a Stalinist mass-murderer, so for them being a bit of a beardie and once having a volume of Fanon in your donkey jacket pocket is probably evidence of the most unassailable kind.


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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Plato said:

    POLWAS

    "Today's revised estimate of second-quarter growth, up from 0.6pc to 0.7pc, is terrible news. For the doom-mongers with their warnings that the recovery is being built on another consumer debt bubble, at least. That’s not to say they don’t have reason to be worried, but the official figures provide nothing to support their argument.

    The Treasury is cock-a-hoop, even daring to add a new clause to its tired “rescue to recovery” mantra – that the recovery is being “supported by balanced growth across the economy”. It was the verbal equivalent of jabbing the doubters in the eye. For weeks now, the Chancellor’s critics have been arguing that growth is being driven by unsustainable household consumption, and that the long-awaited rebalancing to exports and investment has been abandoned.

    But the Office for National Statistics’ figures told the opposite story. Of the 0.7pc growth, 0.3pc came from trade and 0.2pc from investment. Only 0.2pc was from consumption. But there was more. Manufacturing grew by 0.7pc, rather than the 0.4pc estimated last month. Construction, too, is doing better than thought. The troubled sector expanded by 1.4pc in the three months to June, above the 0.9pc estimated in July.

    The figures also laid to rest the worst fears about debt-fuelled household spending. In the first quarter, consumption rose despite a fall in incomes – suggesting that households were delving into their savings and borrowing more. An alternative explanation was that pay, particularly bonuses, was being delayed until after the top rate of tax dropped from 50p to 45p in April... >> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/philipaldrick/100025408/the-economys-slow-but-steady-growth-is-terrible-news-for-the-doom-mongers/

    This cant be true, as we all know Tim and co are always right, the growth is being caused by a debt fueled spending binge linked to massive rises in house prices all caused by George Osborne. It is bad growth we are experiencing and its all the tories fault.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Total nonsense .. That means all those homes in places like Tower Hamlets are stuffed full of white 65 year olds wearing burkas.
    Stick to Dave gazing.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I suspect all that fresh air and sunshine on the farm has given tim that bronzed greek god appearance to match his sunny good humour, so he can look down on us overweight beach lobsters with beer bellies.

    Or perhaps not!

    Do tories love the postal vote? .. or is this another of the Cheshire farmers fantasies, along with gazing adoringly at the PM in a swimsuit..

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Because the people most likely to use postal votes are white and over 65.''

    If that;s true then labour were crazy to oppose IVR........Disenfranchisement of millions blah blah blah.....

    Turns out its will affect tory voters most!!
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Total nonsense .. That means all those homes in places like Tower Hamlets are stuffed full of white 65 year olds wearing burkas.
    Stick to Dave gazing.

    You might want to check out the stats on where postal votes are actually cast (and, where available, who benefits most from them).
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,090
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.
    One can only assume you live on Mars if you think Flipper is either sensible or honest, 4 properties we paid for and tax advice. He is useless , was almost as bad as Brown and anybody that wants him near any control of the country is barking.
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    I think Darling is overrated, the more so the closer you get to the M25....

    Grumpy,

    Which Tube-line is Edinborogh Sarf-Waste on? Is it easy for an American tourist to locate...?

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''You might want to check out the stats on where postal votes are actually cast (and, where available, who benefits most from them). ''

    Same question to you Neil. If postal voting under the old 'householder declaration' system helped the tories most then why on earth did they bring in IVR and why on earth did Labour oppose it.

    Something doesn't add up there surely.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Neil ... Check out the stats.. thats the Cheshire farmers job.. between gazing at Daves torso.. he will be back on in a mo... with all kinds of numbers, saves me the bother..
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BenM said:

    Welcome positive revision to GDP this morning!

    A belated congratulations BenM - How's the family - hope the new addition is not keeping you up all night.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,281
    edited August 2013


    Grumpy

    So you're Dopey, who make up the rest?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    BenM said:

    Welcome positive revision to GDP this morning!

    C'mon UK PLC! Here we go! Here we go! Here we go! etc....

    In other news, another dearly held rightwing meme goes down the pan:

    @SimonFParker
    Independent research shows the BBC gives more airtime to the right than the left and pro-EU voices v sparse @RyanCPS https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028

    A rather more scientific study than the laughable Centre for Policy Studies one.

    You may want to read the link:

    "Along with a group of colleagues at Cardiff University, I recently completed a major content analysis of BBC coverage. This research was funded by the BBC as part of an ongoing series of studies examining the impartiality of its reporting in areas such as regional news, the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Arab Spring, business and science."

    Not that it means that it is not a robust piece of research, but the usual questions need to be asked. In particular, the report was tasked to look at immigration, religion and Europe, two areas you would expect the Conservatives to get more coverage as they are 'hot' toics for Conservatives.

    It's interesting how a BBC-funded piece of research that backs the BBC is released immediately, when they still have not released the BBC-funded Balen report into anti-Israeli bias after nine years ...
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2013
    IVR and postal voting...

    From the electoral commissions website I got this...

    It seems the key reform is that postal and proxy voters voters will need to register under the new system (ie individually not householder declaration) from 2014 or they will automatically lose the right to use this method of voting in 2015.

    The registrations are then (presumably) verified against NI numbers.

    Seeing that over 65s use postals the most, why are the tories throwing this extra obstacle in that path of their own voters? Why was the status quo so wrong?

    And why did labour oppose?
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Twitter
    Greg Hands ‏@GregHands 30m
    Visit our new website to find out how much another Labour Government might cost you personally. http://costoflabour.com
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    RandomRandom Posts: 107
    edited August 2013
    BenM said:

    Welcome positive revision to GDP this morning!

    C'mon UK PLC! Here we go! Here we go! Here we go! etc....,

    Fair play to BenM - I disagree with almost everything he says, but he at least has the decency to welcome good economic as something worth celebrating for it's own sake even if it does represent a setback for The Cause. Lefties who would rather grumble or nitpick should take note.
    BenM said:

    In other news, another dearly held rightwing meme goes down the pan:

    @SimonFParker
    Independent research shows the BBC gives more airtime to the right than the left and pro-EU voices v sparse @RyanCPS https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028

    A rather more scientific study than the laughable Centre for Policy Studies one.

    This on the other hand...

    The claim of it being an impartial study has already been shot down, but I'd just add that claiming it isn't biased based on airtime alone is ridiculous - giving Conservatives twice as much airtime doesn't prove lack of bias if the tone of the coverage is overwhelmingly "why are you evil tories being so evil?" whereas Labour figures are soft-soaped by comparison.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Greg Hands ‏@GregHands 30m
    Visit our new website to find out how much another Labour Government might cost you personally. http://costoflabour.com

    I got that from someone else earlier and its pretty good and simple.

    Whether its Mr Messina or Mr Crosby or just a bright spark in CCHQ - the Tories have been pushing out a lot of interweb campaigning messages. The best I get from Labour is LOOK LOOK WE HAVE SOMEONE ON THE TELLY NOW!!!

    The Twitter wars have broken out with avengence using more than a hashtag of exhortation like #WeLoveTheNHS
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    With a trembling hand and fevered brow the Cheshire farmer tenderly puts down the slightly crumpled photograph of the semi naked PM and posts some stats on Postal voting... from 2005...supplied and hot from the main comp at Labour HQ.
    The lad is a slave to his cause..back to the pic now tim..
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    edited August 2013
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.
    One can only assume you live on Mars if you think Flipper is either sensible or honest, 4 properties we paid for and tax advice. He is useless , was almost as bad as Brown and anybody that wants him near any control of the country is barking.
    Darling and his contemporaries at The Treasury had 'creative' ways of minimising the impact of their own taxation regimes. The press instead got worked up about floating homes for ducks.

    He also 'resigned' from The Faculty of Advocates. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/6968208/Alistair-Darling-resigns-from-law-body-as-it-investigates-his-conduct.html
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Perhaps a list of constituencies where % of postal votes are high and who won and by what majority would be instructive ?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Plato said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Greg Hands ‏@GregHands 30m
    Visit our new website to find out how much another Labour Government might cost you personally. http://costoflabour.com

    I got that from someone else earlier and its pretty good and simple.

    Whether its Mr Messina or Mr Crosby or just a bright spark in CCHQ - the Tories have been pushing out a lot of interweb campaigning messages. The best I get from Labour is LOOK LOOK WE HAVE SOMEONE ON THE TELLY NOW!!!

    The Twitter wars have broken out with avengence using more than a hashtag of exhortation like #WeLoveTheNHS
    Totally preaching to the choir. Won't influence a vote IMO. Who apart from supporters or political anoraks would ever go to this website?

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    Darling's Marxist past recollected by Scotland's best politician ;

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/if-the-recession-hits-will-alistair-be-our-darling-970975
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Jonathan said:

    Plato said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Greg Hands ‏@GregHands 30m
    Visit our new website to find out how much another Labour Government might cost you personally. http://costoflabour.com

    I got that from someone else earlier and its pretty good and simple.

    Whether its Mr Messina or Mr Crosby or just a bright spark in CCHQ - the Tories have been pushing out a lot of interweb campaigning messages. The best I get from Labour is LOOK LOOK WE HAVE SOMEONE ON THE TELLY NOW!!!

    The Twitter wars have broken out with avengence using more than a hashtag of exhortation like #WeLoveTheNHS
    Totally preaching to the choir. Won't influence a vote IMO. Who apart from supporters or political anoraks would ever go to this website?

    They seem to be trying to build up an email list. That should help with fundraising, and converting supporters into activists/advocates.

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited August 2013

    Jonathan said:

    Plato said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Greg Hands ‏@GregHands 30m
    Visit our new website to find out how much another Labour Government might cost you personally. http://costoflabour.com

    I got that from someone else earlier and its pretty good and simple.

    Whether its Mr Messina or Mr Crosby or just a bright spark in CCHQ - the Tories have been pushing out a lot of interweb campaigning messages. The best I get from Labour is LOOK LOOK WE HAVE SOMEONE ON THE TELLY NOW!!!

    The Twitter wars have broken out with avengence using more than a hashtag of exhortation like #WeLoveTheNHS
    Totally preaching to the choir. Won't influence a vote IMO. Who apart from supporters or political anoraks would ever go to this website?

    They seem to be trying to build up an email list. That should help with fundraising, and converting supporters into activists/advocates.

    It's not going to be a very long list at this rate. They might find quite a few supporters at x@y.com.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Labour's response to Cameron's beach pix

    https://twitpic.com/show/full/d9ujjd
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Plato said:

    Labour's response to Cameron's beach pix

    https://twitpic.com/show/full/d9ujjd

    You're going to send tim all of a quiver...
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    New thead

    All about the the Lib Dem plan to reduce the deficit in 2015
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Cameron must be relieved that his holiday snaps weren't used for Guido's caption contest.

    http://order-order.com/2013/08/23/friday-caption-contest-new-batman-announced-edition/
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,090
    dr_spyn said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Labour are really missing something by not having him in a prominent role. He is subject to criticism for failing to control the madness of Brown but frankly, who did? He tried more than most of those who are in the shadow cabinet today.

    The trouble is, he's sensible and honest. So, if he had a prominent role, he'd be telling Ed Miliband, and even more importantly, Labour supporters, something akin to the truth. That wouldn't fit the strategy.
    Yes he is. If I lived in Edinburgh (instead of working there) and had to choose between him and an SNP candidate I would vote for him in a heart beat. Tim has recognised his qualities many times and I agree. A Darling led Labour party would be truly formidable and provide the people of this country with a real choice between credible alternatives.
    One can only assume you live on Mars if you think Flipper is either sensible or honest, 4 properties we paid for and tax advice. He is useless , was almost as bad as Brown and anybody that wants him near any control of the country is barking.
    Darling and his contemporaries at The Treasury had 'creative' ways of minimising the impact of their own taxation regimes. The press instead got worked up about floating homes for ducks.

    He also 'resigned' from The Faculty of Advocates. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/6968208/Alistair-Darling-resigns-from-law-body-as-it-investigates-his-conduct.html
    Yes got out before he was publicly humiliated by being chucked out.
This discussion has been closed.