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YouGov have published some fascinating insights into punters, YouGov say

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SouthamObserver

Blimey - I had no idea ...
https://twitter.com/Williamw1/status/907217080352743425

TheScreamingEagles

In case my Mother reads this, I only bet £20 a week maximum, honest.

And I've never even heard of spread betting.

Pong

I'm in the 5% "little or no interest"

The extent of my gambling is directly proportional to the value in the market. I've gambled heavily on all sorts of odd sports, but when my edge disappeared, so did my interest in whatever sport it was.

SouthamObserver

Mr. Boris Johnson (Henley) It is hard to think of a measure that the Government could have brought to the House that I could support more unreservedly and with greater pleasure than this Bill to expand the European Union. To sum up my response, I would merely say, "And about time too.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/may/21/european-union-accessions-bill#2003-05-21T16:29:00Z

Sean_F

FPT, Dr. Fox, if something is undesirable, one should try to stop it.

Mortimer

5th like Vince.

Philip_Thompson

SouthamObserver said:

Mr. Boris Johnson (Henley) It is hard to think of a measure that the Government could have brought to the House that I could support more unreservedly and with greater pleasure than this Bill to expand the European Union. To sum up my response, I would merely say, "And about time too.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/may/21/european-union-accessions-bill#2003-05-21T16:29:00Z

Entirely consistent with everything Boris said during the referendum. He was never a close the borders Faragist.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

AnneJGP

TheScreamingEagles said:

In case my Mother reads this, I only bet £20 a week maximum, honest.

And I've never even heard of spread betting.

A one-time colleague of mine, who made good returns betting, had his own company called "Honest John Smith" (names changed to protect the innocent). I often wondered who would believe in the honesty of someone who proclaimed he was honest.

Richard_Tyndall

SouthamObserver said:

Blimey - I had no idea ...
https://twitter.com/Williamw1/status/907217080352743425

Interesting that 159 MPs did not vote - not far off the total number of Tory MPs at the time. Anyone know how the vote was whipped? Did many MPs abstain rather than vote against?

Richard_Tyndall

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

Casino_Royale

SouthamObserver said:

Mr. Boris Johnson (Henley) It is hard to think of a measure that the Government could have brought to the House that I could support more unreservedly and with greater pleasure than this Bill to expand the European Union. To sum up my response, I would merely say, "And about time too.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/may/21/european-union-accessions-bill#2003-05-21T16:29:00Z

I was hugely supportive of EU expansion at the time too.

The belief, for eurosceptics, was that it would make the EU both wider, and shallower, with the Eastern Europeans promoting free trade, an association of nation states, giving the EU a more Atlanticist slant, and act as a major break on integration.

Save the formation of sceptical groups like the ECR in the EU parliament, that didn't happen.

chrisoxon

FPT:

HYUFD said:

If automation leads to mass unemployment or underemployment with not enough replacement permanent jobs then either you ban robots at least in whole or in part or have a UBI funded by a robots tax.

Sorry, there is no alternative and if businesses are vastly increasing their profits by slashing their human workforce and their costs and replacing them with machines they can well afford UBI.

No, all you've accomplished is breaking the economy. Most people are now out of work or working only a few hours each week to supplement UBI, meanwhile the automated businesses are struggling as the market for their goods or services is drying up as people have little to spend. Because demand is so low the robot tax revenue starts to dry up meaning cuts to UBI or more borrowing. Maybe some businesses switch back to human labour? Why pay more than the bare minimum given the lack of jobs?

On its own, a robot tax might be a useful revenue raiser, just forget about UBI - it is a fantastic way of driving the economy off a cliff. Communism is a more viable economic model!

Casino_Royale

It's fascinating how little respect some Remainers have for those who decided to vote Leave, with their failure to recognise that they too went on a journey, and the EU's behaviour was instrumental in that.

I find the level of delusion in the EU institutions fascinating in that they feel they've done nothing wrong, and the only problem they ever had is the UK's tabloid press.

TheScreamingEagles

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

It is the same poll, just different questions.

williamglenn

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

Blimey - I had no idea ...
https://twitter.com/Williamw1/status/907217080352743425

Interesting that 159 MPs did not vote - not far off the total number of Tory MPs at the time. Anyone know how the vote was whipped? Did many MPs abstain rather than vote against?

Iain Duncan Smith: "This historic summit is a tribute to the long, hard and sometimes lonely battles fought by successive British Governments to extend the benefits of EU membership to the former communist states of central and eastern Europe.

"Enlargement may be the European Union's finest hour, but its delay reveals the vested interests in parts of the EU with which we have become all too familiar."

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo021216/debtext/21216-06.htm

He couldn't help lying about those states being supposedly excluded from European markets in the interim (not true).

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/907328141567426562

Sean_F

Casino_Royale said:

It's fascinating how little respect some Remainers have for those who decided to vote Leave, with their failure to recognise that they too went on a journey, and the EU's behaviour was instrumental in that.

I find the level of delusion in the EU institutions fascinating in that they feel they've done nothing wrong, and the only problem they ever had is the UK's tabloid press.

Support for the EU went from 67% in 1975 to 48% last year, despite the generations who were brought up under the Empire dying off.

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

It's fascinating how little respect some Remainers have for those who decided to vote Leave, with their failure to recognise that they too went on a journey, and the EU's behaviour was instrumental in that.

I find the level of delusion in the EU institutions fascinating in that they feel they've done nothing wrong, and the only problem they ever had is the UK's tabloid press.

Support for the EU went from 67% in 1975 to 48% last year, despite the generations who were brought up under the Empire dying off.

The same arguments are now being made for why we will eventually rejoin.

Casino_Royale

It really is remarkable Paul Farrelly held on in Newcastle under Lyme, albeit by only 30 votes.

foxinsoxuk

Sean_F said:

FPT, Dr. Fox, if something is undesirable, one should try to stop it.

I agree, but it is like the rise of obesity despite the drop in the number of calories in the average Britons diet. Incidentally, such obesity is increasing internationally, both in developed and undeveloped world.

People will exercise for pleasure, but the exercise that was built into life has been automated away, whether driving to work, housework, manual labour etc etc.

People are going to create new jobs, as they have done in previous waves of automation. Those jobs will probably not be very physical. Probably sitting down looking at screens...

chrisoxon

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mr. Boris Johnson (Henley) It is hard to think of a measure that the Government could have brought to the House that I could support more unreservedly and with greater pleasure than this Bill to expand the European Union. To sum up my response, I would merely say, "And about time too.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/may/21/european-union-accessions-bill#2003-05-21T16:29:00Z

I was hugely supportive of EU expansion at the time too.

The belief, for eurosceptics, was that it would make the EU both wider, and shallower, with the Eastern Europeans promoting free trade, an association of nation states, giving the EU a more Atlanticist slant, and act as a major break on integration.

Save the formation of sceptical groups like the ECR in the EU parliament, that didn't happen.

This section of hanard is more illuminating than 2nd reading (which deals with the principle of the bill not the substance, or at least it will until tonight's vote!) where the issue of the lack of a transitional period is highlighted in committee.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/jun/05/freedom-of-movement-for-workers

Most of the words from the Conservatives were of the need for reform and talk of repatriating powers like control of fisheries.

MarkHopkins

SouthamObserver said:

Mr. Boris Johnson (Henley) It is hard to think of a measure that the Government could have brought to the House that I could support more unreservedly and with greater pleasure than this Bill to expand the European Union. To sum up my response, I would merely say, "And about time too.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/2003/may/21/european-union-accessions-bill#2003-05-21T16:29:00Z

Mr. Boris Johnson

There are benefits to membership of the European Union. My only contention is that, in order to reap the benefits, it is not necessary to build a single European polity, as we appear to be trying to do—"e pluribus unum". I do not believe that we need to make, out of 15 different and disparate states, one state with a centre in Brussels. I believe that that is a mistake and I see no reason why we should agree to the constitution as currently proposed. The Minister has been involved in discussing the detail in Brussels, but there are several respects in which this is a constitution and a treaty too far.

chrisoxon

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

Blimey - I had no idea ...
https://twitter.com/Williamw1/status/907217080352743425

Interesting that 159 MPs did not vote - not far off the total number of Tory MPs at the time. Anyone know how the vote was whipped? Did many MPs abstain rather than vote against?

20% of Conservatives didn't bother to vote at 2nd reading
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2003-05-21&number=212

There were no committee votes or 3rd reading vote, just went through on the nod

Pong

Casino_Royale said:

It really is remarkable Paul Farrelly held on in Newcastle under Lyme, albeit by only 30 votes.

Keele Uni

Results like Newcastle are what happens when the tories screw the kids, thinking the kids won't come out to vote.

And then they do.

williamglenn

Casino_Royale said:

I was hugely supportive of EU expansion at the time too.

The belief, for eurosceptics, was that it would make the EU both wider, and shallower, with the Eastern Europeans promoting free trade, an association of nation states, giving the EU a more Atlanticist slant, and act as a major break on integration.

EU expansion happened after the launch of the Euro, so this sounds like (from your perspective) wishful thinking if not self-delusion.

Casino_Royale

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

I was hugely supportive of EU expansion at the time too.

The belief, for eurosceptics, was that it would make the EU both wider, and shallower, with the Eastern Europeans promoting free trade, an association of nation states, giving the EU a more Atlanticist slant, and act as a major break on integration.

EU expansion happened after the launch of the Euro, so this sounds like (from your perspective) wishful thinking if not self-delusion.

Indeed. And I learnt my lesson, along with many others.

HYUFD

chrisoxon said:

FPT:

HYUFD said:

If automation leads to mass unemployment or underemployment with not enough replacement permanent jobs then either you ban robots at least in whole or in part or have a UBI funded by a robots tax.

Sorry, there is no alternative and if businesses are vastly increasing their profits by slashing their human workforce and their costs and replacing them with machines they can well afford UBI.

No, all you've accomplished is breaking the economy. Most people are now out of work or working only a few hours each week to supplement UBI, meanwhile the automated businesses are struggling as the market for their goods or services is drying up as people have little to spend. Because demand is so low the robot tax revenue starts to dry up meaning cuts to UBI or more borrowing. Maybe some businesses switch back to human labour? Why pay more than the bare minimum given the lack of jobs?

On its own, a robot tax might be a useful revenue raiser, just forget about UBI - it is a fantastic way of driving the economy off a cliff. Communism is a more viable economic model!

I was talking about introducing a robot tax and UBI in a scenario where up to 50% maybe even more are unemployed or underemployed due to automation and you are talking about breaking the economy? If that isn't a broken economy I don't know what is? If automation produced new permanent jobs to replace almost all those left then I would not advocate a robot tax or a UBI

UBI would only be introduced because there were not enough jobs for people to do, especially fulltime ones and the only way to sustain living costs for those who were not in the minority of highly paid jobs automation created and which provided the vast bulk of company revenues from customers, those companies already having slashed their costs by automating much of their workforce.

If the UBI and robot tax leads some businesses to switch back to human labour then all to the good.

RobD

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

I was hugely supportive of EU expansion at the time too.

The belief, for eurosceptics, was that it would make the EU both wider, and shallower, with the Eastern Europeans promoting free trade, an association of nation states, giving the EU a more Atlanticist slant, and act as a major break on integration.

EU expansion happened after the launch of the Euro, so this sounds like (from your perspective) wishful thinking if not self-delusion.

Admitting it is different from the organisation the UK signed up to in the 70s?

Sean_F

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

Richard_Tyndall

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

It is the same poll, just different questions.

Very contradictory responses then.

HYUFD

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

41/42% back hard Brexit or Leave, the remainder just split 50/50 soft Brexit or Remain or go fully Remain if there is no soft Brexit option given to them

TheScreamingEagles

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Casino_Royale

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/blair-explains-how-hed-have-done-star-wars-differently-20170911135427

RobD

Sean_F said:

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

Isn't our Southam over there? I hope he keeps his head down!

Casino_Royale

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

It is the same poll, just different questions.

Very contradictory responses then.

OGH has been desperate for 15 months to find a shift to Remain, and excitedly tweets any MoE poll.

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/chootchyface/status/907330175263821829

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

It's no wonder Gibraltarians don't want to join that bunch of charlatans.

williamglenn

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Gibraltar

This (long) thread on Gibraltar is very comprehensive on why Brexit does *not* offer any of the claimed opportunities.
https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/906141101253386240

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/907336325627568128

Ishmael_Z

Fpt
Oscar Wilde wrote The Soul of Man under Socialism about how we would sit around being cultured while the machines did all the work. Problem is you need the socialism bit because otherwise Greedy Bastards Inc own the machines and want to maximise shareholder value at the expense of anything else. Conversely if you have socialism you have a nomenklatura reaping all the benefits. So either way it's eloi and morlocks, spartiates and helots or whatever. Our best hope is Elon Musk invents strong AI and presents it to everyone.

Philip_Thompson

Sean_F said:

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

It is worrying. If I were a Catalan the actions of the Spanish government would be making me want independence more and more. The irony is that a few years ago the support for Catalan independence was very small. The bullying tactics of the Spanish government combined with the Supreme Court in throwing out the autonomy deal that had been reached between the Central and Catalan governments have pushed people against the wall where they are fighting back.

RobD

TheScreamingEagles said:

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Bugger. Shouldn't have gone to Hull.

Sean_F

Ishmael_Z said:

Fpt
Oscar Wilde wrote The Soul of Man under Socialism about how we would sit around being cultured while the machines did all the work. Problem is you need the socialism bit because otherwise Greedy Bastards Inc own the machines and want to maximise shareholder value at the expense of anything else. Conversely if you have socialism you have a nomenklatura reaping all the benefits. So either way it's eloi and morlocks, spartiates and helots or whatever. Our best hope is Elon Musk invents strong AI and presents it to everyone.

I don't want to be Eloi, but that's inevitable if we let robots do everything important.

williamglenn

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/907336325627568128

https://twitter.com/almodozo/status/907340011267411968

Sean_F

Philip_Thompson said:

Sean_F said:

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

It is worrying. If I were a Catalan the actions of the Spanish government would be making me want independence more and more. The irony is that a few years ago the support for Catalan independence was very small. The bullying tactics of the Spanish government combined with the Supreme Court in throwing out the autonomy deal that had been reached between the Central and Catalan governments have pushed people against the wall where they are fighting back.

I think there are faults on each side.

If I were a pro-Spanish Catalan (a large minority) I would be just as annoyed by the Catalan government.

Sunil_Prasannan

West Ham finally score a goal

foxinsoxuk

Sunil_Prasannan said:

West Ham finally score a goal

Two

rpjs

Sean_F said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Fpt
Oscar Wilde wrote The Soul of Man under Socialism about how we would sit around being cultured while the machines did all the work. Problem is you need the socialism bit because otherwise Greedy Bastards Inc own the machines and want to maximise shareholder value at the expense of anything else. Conversely if you have socialism you have a nomenklatura reaping all the benefits. So either way it's eloi and morlocks, spartiates and helots or whatever. Our best hope is Elon Musk invents strong AI and presents it to everyone.

I don't want to be Eloi, but that's inevitable if we let robots do everything important.

I'd love to live in an AI-run, post-scarcity civilization like Iain M. Banks' "Culture". Some argue that the rôle of humans in the Culture is to be effectively pets of the "Minds" (super-intelligent AIs) that de facto[1] run the show, but it seems pretty attractive to me.

[1] De jure[2] what government there is in the avowedly anarcho-communist Culture is direct democracy.

[2] Actually a silly term to use in a society that has no laws.

Roger

OT. Listening to the one o'clock news and hearing Corbyn treat Blair as though he was an ignorant schoolboy wasn't very edifying. What happened to that charming man that Nick has been waxing lyrical about?

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/907340724139466752

Sunil_Prasannan

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

West Ham finally score a goal

Two

Blimey

RobD

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/907336325627568128

https://twitter.com/almodozo/status/907340011267411968

The Lab bar is certainly smaller! Splitters!

TheScreamingEagles

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

NickPalmer

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907325890148913152

Strange that two polls in Wales today are getting such apparently different results.

It is the same poll, just different questions.

Illustrates the point that I made on the last thread that questions with a choice of 3 answers A, B and C can't be safely interpreted in terms of A+B or B+C. Essentially the Welsh voters are saying that they are now more dubious than before about Brexit, but that dubious voters are divided on whether to reverse the verdict or settle for Soft Brexit.

Charles

TheScreamingEagles said:

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Q. What's the first thing a Cambridge graduate says when he meets you?

A. Would you like fries with that?


Q. What do you say to a Canbridge grad in a suit?

A. Would the defendant please rise.

...I'm here all night...

Sean_F

RobD said:

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/907336325627568128

https://twitter.com/almodozo/status/907340011267411968

The Lab bar is certainly smaller! Splitters!

Centre should not be included with the left. They're more like a UKIP-type party who will cut deals with either right or left.

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/RichardWellings/status/907193641491484672

Ishmael_Z

rpjs said:

Sean_F said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Fpt
Oscar Wilde wrote The Soul of Man under Socialism about how we would sit around being cultured while the machines did all the work. Problem is you need the socialism bit because otherwise Greedy Bastards Inc own the machines and want to maximise shareholder value at the expense of anything else. Conversely if you have socialism you have a nomenklatura reaping all the benefits. So either way it's eloi and morlocks, spartiates and helots or whatever. Our best hope is Elon Musk invents strong AI and presents it to everyone.

I don't want to be Eloi, but that's inevitable if we let robots do everything important.

I'd love to live in an AI-run, post-scarcity civilization like Iain M. Banks' "Culture". Some argue that the rôle of humans in the Culture is to be effectively pets of the "Minds" (super-intelligent AIs) that de facto[1] run the show, but it seems pretty attractive to me.

[1] De jure[2] what government there is in the avowedly anarcho-communist Culture is direct democracy.

[2] Actually a silly term to use in a society that has no laws.

Really? Iain M Banks is excellent in parts, but the conversations between AIs are excruciatingly embarrassing, like a room full of Stephen Frys all trying to be funny.

Which reminds me that the new Forth bridge reminded me that I must re-read The Bridge.

MarkHopkins

Charles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Q. What's the first thing a Cambridge graduate says when he meets you?

A. Would you like fries with that?


Q. What do you say to a Canbridge grad in a suit?

A. Would the defendant please rise.

...I'm here all night...

Q. How can you tell if a Cambridge grad is in the room?

A. The light bulb is brighter.

Charles

MarkHopkins said:

Charles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Q. What's the first thing a Cambridge graduate says when he meets you?

A. Would you like fries with that?


Q. What do you say to a Canbridge grad in a suit?

A. Would the defendant please rise.

...I'm here all night...

Q. How can you tell if a Cambridge grad is in the room?

A. The light bulb is brighter.

Q. What do you call a Cambridge grad with two brain cells?

A. Pregnant

TheScreamingEagles

Checks to see if it is the lagershed?

Yay it is, I can tell some shocking jokes now.

Mortimer

TheScreamingEagles said:

Checks to see if it is the lagershed?

Yay it is, I can tell some shocking jokes now.

Q. How long do Cambridge graduates take to write jokes?

A. Tick tock

TheScreamingEagles

Mortimer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Checks to see if it is the lagershed?

Yay it is, I can tell some shocking jokes now.

Q. How long do Cambridge graduates take to write jokes?

A. Tick tock

I'm writing the morning thread and the afternoon thread, I'm multi-tasking and putting in a dig about Oxford in both.

Ishmael_Z

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mortimer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Checks to see if it is the lagershed?

Yay it is, I can tell some shocking jokes now.

Q. How long do Cambridge graduates take to write jokes?

A. Tick tock

I'm writing the morning thread and the afternoon thread, I'm multi-tasking and putting in a dig about Oxford in both.

Say what you like about Oxford, it's the best university in anywhere called Oxford. #Harvard

Philip_Thompson

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Sean_F said:

O/T I wonder if war is about to break out in Catalonia.

It is worrying. If I were a Catalan the actions of the Spanish government would be making me want independence more and more. The irony is that a few years ago the support for Catalan independence was very small. The bullying tactics of the Spanish government combined with the Supreme Court in throwing out the autonomy deal that had been reached between the Central and Catalan governments have pushed people against the wall where they are fighting back.

I think there are faults on each side.

If I were a pro-Spanish Catalan (a large minority) I would be just as annoyed by the Catalan government.

Indeed but they're on a different scale. The Catalan government is trying to do it the democratic way just like the Quebecois and the Scots. Just like all of those though the unionists could defeat them democratically. Instead the Spanish are using bully boy tactics trying to deny any say rather than win the vote.

GIN1138

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/907340724139466752

Stick to your guns Caz!

philiph

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Also it is odd for the bully to be attacked by the subject of the bullying.

TheScreamingEagles

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

Sean_F

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

That point is well-made.

philiph

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

We survive French dock strikes. Where there is a will there is a way.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

Project Fear

williamglenn

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

We survive French dock strikes. Where there is a will there is a way.

Where there's a will, there's a family... of European nations protecting their interests.

Big_G_NorthWales

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

We survive French dock strikes. Where there is a will there is a way.

There is plenty of great British food and drink. Time we supported our own food and drink

williamglenn

So when you're near me, Donald can't you hear me SOS.
https://twitter.com/TimesPictures/status/907353728939945986

Big_G_NorthWales

williamglenn said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

We survive French dock strikes. Where there is a will there is a way.

Where there's a will, there's a family... of European nations protecting their interests.

Sounds like a mafia

Sunil_Prasannan

Ishmael_Z said:

rpjs said:

Sean_F said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Fpt
Oscar Wilde wrote The Soul of Man under Socialism about how we would sit around being cultured while the machines did all the work. Problem is you need the socialism bit because otherwise Greedy Bastards Inc own the machines and want to maximise shareholder value at the expense of anything else. Conversely if you have socialism you have a nomenklatura reaping all the benefits. So either way it's eloi and morlocks, spartiates and helots or whatever. Our best hope is Elon Musk invents strong AI and presents it to everyone.

I don't want to be Eloi, but that's inevitable if we let robots do everything important.

I'd love to live in an AI-run, post-scarcity civilization like Iain M. Banks' "Culture". Some argue that the rôle of humans in the Culture is to be effectively pets of the "Minds" (super-intelligent AIs) that de facto[1] run the show, but it seems pretty attractive to me.

[1] De jure[2] what government there is in the avowedly anarcho-communist Culture is direct democracy.

[2] Actually a silly term to use in a society that has no laws.

Really? Iain M Banks is excellent in parts, but the conversations between AIs are excruciatingly embarrassing, like a room full of Stephen Frys all trying to be funny.

Which reminds me that the new Forth bridge reminded me that I must re-read The Bridge.

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/906240711221239809

philiph

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

We survive French dock strikes. Where there is a will there is a way.

Where there's a will, there's a family... of European nations protecting their interests.

Sounds like a mafia

No, I think he meant Prince Will.

Richard_Nabavi

TheScreamingEagles said:

Just saying.

Cambridge graduates named most employable in the UK

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2017/09/11/cambridge-graduates-named-employable-uk-97593

Of course. We Oxford graduates often employ them.

Richard_Nabavi

So, to be clear, the EU warning the UK that there would be disagreeable consequences if there is no deal is good, but the UK warning the EU that there would be disagreeable consequences if there is no deal is bad?

foxinsoxuk

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

It is only fresh produce that would rot in the traffic. Prosecco might be a little warm,but the rest would merely be an unfortunate rerun of the great courgette crisis of 2017.

Brexit will be a bit crap, but the return to being the sick man of Europe will be a slow one rather than a car crash.

RobD

Richard_Nabavi said:

So, to be clear, the EU warning the UK that there would be disagreeable consequences if there is no deal is good, but the UK warning the EU that there would be disagreeable consequences if there is no deal is bad?

You are williamglenn and I claim my £2

MTimT

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

philiph said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Remain were right, Brexit would lead to a less secure Europe.

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/907339079343382528

I thought we were too small, insignificant and in a terribly weak position, so this headline must be wrong, how can such an insignificant appendage on the edge of the continent bully the mighty morally magnificent EU?

Fact. We spend more on military than most of all other individual EU nations.

Militarily we're the pre-eminent EU power, but that won't be worth a pitcher of warm piss if we get a Hard Brexit that sees things like food held up in delays at Dover in April 2019.

It is only fresh produce that would rot in the traffic. Prosecco might be a little warm,but the rest would merely be an unfortunate rerun of the great courgette crisis of 2017.

Brexit will be a bit crap, but the return to being the sick man of Europe will be a slow one rather than a car crash.

Two mid-term consequences of EU food being held up at EU ports - import substitution (with both domestic alternatives and imports from alternative origins, and fewer UK imports from other countries being transshipped through EU ports. That will drive up UK import costs, but presumably add some UK jobs. The EU also loses as a result of both.

Dadge

williamglenn said:

So when you're near me, Donald can't you hear me SOS.
https://twitter.com/TimesPictures/status/907353728939945986

So those aerospace jobs in Belfast will effectively be victims of Brexit. Without Brexit, the UK govt could threaten to do to Boeing what they're doing to us. With Brexit, we're too scared of souring trading relations with the US.

chrisoxon

Dadge said:

williamglenn said:

So when you're near me, Donald can't you hear me SOS.
https://twitter.com/TimesPictures/status/907353728939945986

So those aerospace jobs in Belfast will effectively be victims of Brexit. Without Brexit, the UK govt could threaten to do to Boeing what they're doing to us. With Brexit, we're too scared of souring trading relations with the US.

...except that without Brexit we don't have control of tariffs and therefore couldn't introduce punitive tariffs in retaliation. Besides, is this really the territory you want to fight on - "Brexit means we can't have a trade war with the US"?

MikeL

Lab amendment:

Yes: 296
No: 318

Govt Maj: 22

Govt maj maybe a bit less than expected if up to 10 Lab rebels.

bigjohnowls

MikeL said:

Lab amendment:

Yes: 296
No: 318

Govt Maj: 22

Govt maj maybe a bit less than expected if up to 10 Lab rebels.

Why so small numbers? 317 BTW

MikeL

21 abstentions - seems high.

Max vote: 650 - 7 SF - 4 Speakers - 4 tellers = 635.

MikeL

BBC says 318.

williamglenn

The exit from Brexit draws nearer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41230610

The Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has said she would campaign to remain in the European Union if another referendum were to be held.

In an interview with BBC director of news James Harding she said she was "not flying the flag for Brexit".

MikeL

Must be several Con rebels.

GE 318 - 2 Speakers - 2 tellers = 314 + 10 DUP = 324.

So 6 missing at a minimum.

NB. Counting MP who had whip withdrawn as still Con.

RobD

williamglenn said:

The exit from Brexit draws nearer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41230610

The Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has said she would campaign to remain in the European Union if another referendum were to be held.

In an interview with BBC director of news James Harding she said she was "not flying the flag for Brexit".

Remainer says they'll vote remain again shock.

RobD

MikeL said:

Must be several Con rebels.

GE 318 - 2 Speakers - 2 tellers = 314 + 10 DUP = 324.

So 6 missing at a minimum.

NB. Counting MP who had whip withdrawn as still Con.

Now the real fight begins.. amendments in committee.

williamglenn

https://twitter.com/ftbrussels/status/907380513748475904

MikeL

2nd Reading:

Yes: 326
No: 290

Govt Maj: 36

Much more like it for Govt.

Suggests some Con rebels abstained on Lab amendment but backed Govt on 2nd Reading.

bigjohnowls

MikeL said:

2nd Reading:

Yes: 326
No: 290

Govt Maj: 36

Much more like it for Govt.

Suggests some Con rebels abstained on Lab amendment but backed Govt on 2nd Reading.

Beast of Bolsover in Tory lobby.

GIN1138

MikeL said:

2nd Reading:

Yes: 326
No: 290

Govt Maj: 36

Much more like it for Govt.

Suggests some Con rebels abstained on Lab amendment but backed Govt on 2nd Reading.

Looks good!

RobD

GIN1138 said:

MikeL said:

2nd Reading:

Yes: 326
No: 290

Govt Maj: 36

Much more like it for Govt.

Suggests some Con rebels abstained on Lab amendment but backed Govt on 2nd Reading.

Looks good!

To paraphrase someone... we're allllrightttt

MikeL

Still 19 abstentions on 2nd reading - implies some people switched sides between vote 1 and vote 2.

bigjohnowls

BBC reporting 308 Tories 9 DUP 1 independent in 1st vote. Also 1 Inc in Aye lobby. Who are 2 independent?