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Video: Footage of Jeremy Corbyn campaigning in Redruth last month.

Read the full story here

tlg86

First.

CarlottaVance

Second! Like Corbyn...

rcs1000

CarlottaVance said:

Second! Like Corbyn...

Sixteenth like Vince Cable!

AlastairMeeks

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

CarlottaVance

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

It is fair to say at GE17 the Tories tested to destruction "always keep a-hold of Nurse for fear of finding something worse"....

foxinsoxuk

CarlottaVance said:

Second! Like Corbyn...

It will be first next time for Corbyn!

I see the bandwagon is in Broxtowe at the end of the month. Jezza likes campaigning, and the momentum team don't just appear at election time.

Leadership bettors should note that Ashworth is part of the roadshow. The NHS is a core Labour campaign issue, but Ashworth is also a classic apparatchik organiser who has not offended either wing of the party.

SandyRentool

foxinsoxuk said:

CarlottaVance said:

Second! Like Corbyn...

It will be first next time for Corbyn!

I see the bandwagon is in Broxtowe at the end of the month. Jezza likes campaigning, and the momentum team don't just appear at election time.

Leadership bettors should note that Ashworth is part of the roadshow. The NHS is a core Labour campaign issue, but Ashworth is also a classic apparatchik organiser who has not offended either wing of the party.

That sounds like a coded tip for next Labour leader. I would agree that Ashworth has to be in with a shout.

Alanbrooke

EU court decides all states must take refugees and any state not doing so must pay the others

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/wie-die-umverteilung-der-fluechtlinge-aussehen-wird-15190851.html

SquareRoot

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

Alanbrooke

Less than supportive views for Gerry Adams style of leadership


https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/09/10/ten-more-years-ten-more-years/

OldKingCole

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

Although the Conservatives, who usually hoover up that vote, are totally failing to demonstrate what business believes is the cardinal virtue, competence. And what’s worse they are disunited.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

I'm sure nationalisations, hiking taxes, squeezing the rich until the pips squeak and a socialist vision of Venezuelan economics will go down a treat.

Sean_F

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

I'm sure nationalisations, hiking taxes, squeezing the rich until the pips squeak and a socialist vision of Venezuelan economics will go down a treat.

People vote for reasons other than self-interest, so one could imagine some business owners voting for Labour because they think the country would benefit (I would disagree).

I would find it hard to believe that any business owner would vote for a Corbyn-led party in the belief that their own business would benefit.

MikeSmithson

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Charles

Alanbrooke said:

EU court decides all states must take refugees and any state not doing so must pay the others

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/wie-die-umverteilung-der-fluechtlinge-aussehen-wird-15190851.html

That can't be right!

I thought Hungary was a sovereign nation?

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Charles/Mr. Brooke, all states? Including the UK?

Charles

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

No, it's really not. At the time of the corn laws the Tories were the standing up for the biggest industry in the country (albeit in an unhelpful manner but they weren't as smart as Peel)

Jonathan

Tories are to business what sacculina are to crabs.

Mortimer

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

malcolmg

Jonathan said:

Tories are to business what sacculina are to crabs.

Thank you for that post , made for very interesting read on sacculina. They do sound very like Tories.

SouthamObserver

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

We launched and grew our business under the last Labour government. But Corbyn Labour is a very different beast. If you believe in redistribution - as I do - then you have to be equally as focused on creating an environment in which wealth creation can flourish. The Tories are clearly not very interested in doing that; but sadly, despite what Don writes, neither is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party. Frankly, it has absolutely no idea. However, they are both as bad as each other for business is a big step forward for the far-left, so there is an opportunity there, clearly.

malcolmg

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

I expect you are not even joking, when you spout that horse manure, either.

SouthamObserver

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

MikeSmithson

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/907137157327986688

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

foxinsoxuk

SandyRentool said:

foxinsoxuk said:

CarlottaVance said:

Second! Like Corbyn...

It will be first next time for Corbyn!

I see the bandwagon is in Broxtowe at the end of the month. Jezza likes campaigning, and the momentum team don't just appear at election time.

Leadership bettors should note that Ashworth is part of the roadshow. The NHS is a core Labour campaign issue, but Ashworth is also a classic apparatchik organiser who has not offended either wing of the party.

That sounds like a coded tip for next Labour leader. I would agree that Ashworth has to be in with a shout.

While a woman leader would be desired by many in the party, others would like someone with a northern working class background. Policy and ability probably trumps either of these. Gender should not be a deal breaker. His politics are fairly mainstream, but I think Momentum and Unions like his organisational skills.

He is local MP to me, and has grown on me considerably. He will be an excellent minister, but PM? on the other hand he has good odds, and has that John Major-like ability to rise through the middle by offending no one. The odds are good at BF.

Ishmael_Z

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

If you said offering the referendum was a loony policy I would agree, but brexit itself as opposed to the way it is implemented is not a Tory policy.

SouthamObserver

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

In my world the main beneficiary of Brexit so far has been our Berlin office. The uncertainty was the tipping point.

eek

Mortimer said:

increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

I think you've made a leap or 2 in logic there and the intermediate steps have flawed logic in that when corrected means its likely low paid private sector workers won't be seeing pay rises beyond mandatory living wage increases.

Given the current state of various parts of the economy (I have a suspicion that a lot of companies are earning enough cashflow to just about keep going) I suspect many will be lucky to keep their jobs..

SouthamObserver

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

In my world the main beneficiary of Brexit so far has been our Berlin office. The uncertainty was the tipping point.

We have done very well out of the fall in the pound as we bill mainly in dollars and euros. Our major investments are now going into our US and Asian operations, while we are also looking to open up an office in the Single Market. Well-paid jobs we would have created in the UK, as well as taxes we would have paid here, will now go elsewhere.

HYUFD

Falmouth and Cannot be was won by Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 so not that surprising Cannot be and Redruth are now in the list of Labour targets given it is closer nationally.

It is all very well Labour having Business Liason Officers, there is even a Conservative Trade Unionists Group but it is the policies that count

Ishmael_Z

Alanbrooke said:

EU court decides all states must take refugees and any state not doing so must pay the others

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/wie-die-umverteilung-der-fluechtlinge-aussehen-wird-15190851.html

Very interesting indeed, esp the suggestion that Hungary and co can do what they like without fear of reprisals because the EU dare not open a war on another front while brexit is happening.

If I were the government I would form a clandestine ministry of truth with the remit of pointing and laughing at the EU over non brexit issues like this, to remind people that there really is a lot of stuff we are better off without. They could probably buy up the whole of Bell Pottinger pretty cheap and set them to work on this

HYUFD

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the longer 4 to 5 year visa for EU workers simply matches current UK immigration policy for the rest of the world outside the EU and of course EU citizens already resident in the UK will get permanent residency

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

In my world the main beneficiary of Brexit so far has been our Berlin office. The uncertainty was the tipping point.

We have done very well out of the fall in the pound as we bill mainly in dollars and euros. Our major investments are now going into our US and Asian operations, while we are also looking to open up an office in the Single Market. Well-paid jobs we would have created in the UK, as well as taxes we would have paid here, will now go elsewhere.

Brexit wasn't the only factor. London is too expensive in almost every respect . But the sheer uncertainty of it all isn't worth the bother/ risk right now.

HYUFD

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Cable probably has a better shot of appealing to businesspeople disillusioned with Brexit, especially medium and large businesspeople

HYUFD

SandyRentool said:

foxinsoxuk said:

CarlottaVance said:

Second! Like Corbyn...

It will be first next time for Corbyn!

I see the bandwagon is in Broxtowe at the end of the month. Jezza likes campaigning, and the momentum team don't just appear at election time.

Leadership bettors should note that Ashworth is part of the roadshow. The NHS is a core Labour campaign issue, but Ashworth is also a classic apparatchik organiser who has not offended either wing of the party.

That sounds like a coded tip for next Labour leader. I would agree that Ashworth has to be in with a shout.

He will have a shot if Corbyn wins the next general election as will Thornberry and McDonnell, if Corbyn loses the next general election then Umunna or Cooper will be back in the frame

HYUFD

HYUFD said:

Falmouth and Camborne was won by Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 so not that surprising Camborne and Redruth and Truro and Falmouth are now in the list of Labour targets given it is closer nationally.

It is all very well Labour having Business Liason Officers, there is even a Conservative Trade Unionists Group but it is the policies that count

Correction, the LDs won Falmouth and Camborne in 2005 but Labour won it in 1997 and 2001

SouthamObserver

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the longer 4 to 5 year visa for EU workers simply matches current UK immigration policy for the rest of the world outside the EU and of course EU citizens already resident in the UK will get permanent residency

Yep - we are going to have a guest-worker immigration regime for low-skilled EU citizens; and we are going to make the UK a far less attractive proposition than it has been up to now for high-skilled EU citizens. This will not help low-paid, low-skilled UK workers.

SouthamObserver

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

HYUFD

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - if the August policy paper is anything to go by, the government's strategy seems to be to focus on bringing in large numbers of low-skilled EU guest-workers while making the UK a much less attractive place to come to than it has been up to now for highly-skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the e EU citizens already resident in the UK will get permanent residency

Yep - we are going to have a guest-worker immigration regime for low-skilled EU citizens; and we are going to make the UK a far less attractive proposition than it has been up to now for high-skilled EU citizens. This will not help low-paid, low-skilled UK workers.

Over the last decade low paid UK workers have seen their incomes fall because of immigration but high paid UK workers have seen their incomes rise because of immigration (according to a study in yesterday's Sunday Times mentioned by Dominic Lawson) so setting 2 year visas for low skilled immigration should reduce downwards pressure on wages at the lower end while the longer 4 to 5 year visas for high skilled immigration should ensure we still get enough high skilled workers

SouthamObserver

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yesas leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - -skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the longer 4 to 5 year visa for EU workers simply matches current UK immigration policy for the rest of the world outside the EU and of course EU citizens already resident in the UK will get permanent residency

Yep - we UK workers.

Over the last decade low paid UK workers have seen their incomes fall because of immigration but high paid UK workers have seen their incomes rise because of immigration so setting 2 year visas for low skilled immigration should reduce downwards pressure on wages at the lower end while the longer 4 to 5 year visas for high skilled immigration should ensure we still get enough high skilled workers

The economy and the pound will decide how the low-paid and low-skilled fare. Depending on how they perform, we will either need to bring in a lot of guest-workers, or we won't. Either way, wages do not look like they are heading for a demand-driven explosion at the bottom end. At the higher end, it may well be different, precisely because we are making the UK a less attractive place for those with a choice in these things to come and work. To compensate for that, wages will have to be a lot higher - either to make UK citizens switch jobs or to make it worth coming here.

Sean_F

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

HYUFD

SouthamObserver said:

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

Except the Tories now have 11 seats in Scotland all but one gained post Brexit

rottenborough

Morning all,

I suspect businesses will want to engage with Labour now, as it seems there is a good chance of them forming the next government. Unless Tories can do something about their under-50 vote problem, then the clock is ticking.

Mexicanpete

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workers who need it most.

This deduction is either the work of a genius or an idiot! I haven't worked out which yet?... I am erring towards the latter.

rottenborough

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Jonathan

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

swing_voter

HYUFD said:

Falmouth and Cannot be was won by Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 so not that surprising Cannot be and Redruth are now in the list of Labour targets given it is closer nationally.

It is all very well Labour having Business Liason Officers, there is even a Conservative Trade Unionists Group but it is the policies that count

Falmouth and Cambourne was Lib dem in 2005, Labour have not held it since 2001. Coming back to the thread, Labour's footprint is still poor in Cornwall and I think that their impressive gains in 2017 were a high water mark. My feeling is that a split anti Tory vote will be a problem for both Green, Lab and Lib Dems in this part of the world.

SouthamObserver

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

Except the Tories now have 11 seats in Scotland all but one gained post Brexit

Yep, the Tories have certainly returned in Scotland. But the Tory vote alone would not prevent independence. That will depend on the Labour and LibDem vote, too. With a Labour government in Westminster, the Union is pretty much assured. With a Tory government pursuing right-wing policies post-Brexit, it may be less so. We shall see.

rottenborough

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

rottenborough

Mexicanpete said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yes but when have Labour ever done anything that is good for business? Labour will have to suspend belief as does the audience in the play Warhorse... A trick unlikely to succeed in politics especially with Corbyn as leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workers who need it most.

This deduction is either the work of a genius or an idiot! I haven't worked out which yet?... I am erring towards the latter.

I fear Mortimer will be disappointed when as many visas are issued as there are migrants now.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Borough, is that not due to the Lib Dems suffering through both always wanting coalition, yet spending most of their time talking about what they stopped the Conservatives doing rather than claiming credit, and that a lot of voters [unfairly] treated them as Labour-Light and were outraged when the party they voted for had the temerity to, er, enter government?

SouthamObserver

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Sean_F

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

Except the Tories now have 11 seats in Scotland all but one gained post Brexit

Yep, the Tories have certainly returned in Scotland. But the Tory vote alone would not prevent independence. That will depend on the Labour and LibDem vote, too. With a Labour government in Westminster, the Union is pretty much assured. With a Tory government pursuing right-wing policies post-Brexit, it may be less so. We shall see.

I think James Kelly is right that there is a ceiling of 30% for Scottish Conservatives, enough to win back their historic areas of strength.

OldKingCole

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Borough, is that not due to the Lib Dems suffering through both always wanting coalition, yet spending most of their time talking about what they stopped the Conservatives doing rather than claiming credit, and that a lot of voters [unfairly] treated them as Labour-Light and were outraged when the party they voted for had the temerity to, er, enter government?

As a long-term Lib and then LD I look at the Coalition’s record in such areas as the (almost) abolition of legal aid, the attacks on Welfare benefits, tuition fees (although that’s not as bad as it could have been) and their failure to stop Lansley’s splitting of Health Promotion and other aspects of Public Health away from the Health Service and wonder what I was doing all those years. The policies of the coalition were not what I had, over the years, canvassed and leaflets for.

I admit that I don’t think, given the overal economic situation in 2010 that Clegg and the Parliamentary Party had much choice in the short-term, but I frequently posted here from about 2012 onwards that it was time to leave the coalition.

HYUFD

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

Except the Tories now have 11 seats in Scotland all but one gained post Brexit

Yep, the Tories have certainly returned in Scotland. But the Tory vote alone would not prevent independence. That will depend on the Labour and LibDem vote, too. With a Labour government in Westminster, the Union is pretty much assured. With a Tory government pursuing right-wing policies post-Brexit, it may be less so. We shall see.

Yet the SNP fell to just 37% despite Brexit and a Tory government

eek

OldKingCole said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Borough, is that not due to the Lib Dems suffering through both always wanting coalition, yet spending most of their time talking about what they stopped the Conservatives doing rather than claiming credit, and that a lot of voters [unfairly] treated them as Labour-Light and were outraged when the party they voted for had the temerity to, er, enter government?

As a long-term Lib and then LD I look at the Coalition’s record in such areas as the (almost) abolition of legal aid, the attacks on Welfare benefits, tuition fees (although that’s not as bad as it could have been) and their failure to stop Lansley’s splitting of Health Promotion and other aspects of Public Health away from the Health Service and wonder what I was doing all those years. The policies of the coalition were not what I had, over the years, canvassed and leaflets for.

I admit that I don’t think, given the overal economic situation in 2010 that Clegg and the Parliamentary Party had much choice in the short-term, but I frequently posted here from about 2012 onwards that it was time to leave the coalition.

How could any tuition fee policy be worse than the one we currently have? If the fees don't kill you the interest rates they charge (RPI+3%) will...

619

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Decent analysis of the latest Panelbase Scottish poll from James Kelly:

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/enormous-lead-for-snp-in-first-post.html

How the reality of Brexit changes things - if it does at all - is probably the big question in Scotland between now and the next GE. I suspect that if Labour did form the next UK government, Scottish independence would cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if the Tories got back in after taking us over the cliff it could be a very different story. But what do I know?

Except the Tories now have 11 seats in Scotland all but one gained post Brexit

Yep, the Tories have certainly returned in Scotland. But the Tory vote alone would not prevent independence. That will depend on the Labour and LibDem vote, too. With a Labour government in Westminster, the Union is pretty much assured. With a Tory government pursuing right-wing policies post-Brexit, it may be less so. We shall see.

I think James Kelly is right that there is a ceiling of 30% for Scottish Conservatives, enough to win back their historic areas of strength.

Is that just a unionist vote which will disappear once the SNP stops having a manifesto with indie on it?

HYUFD

swing_voter said:

HYUFD said:

Falmouth and Cannot be was won by Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 so not that surprising Cannot be and Redruth are now in the list of Labour targets given it is closer nationally.

It is all very well Labour having Business Liason Officers, there is even a Conservative Trade Unionists Group but it is the policies that count

Falmouth and Cambourne was Lib dem in 2005, Labour have not held it since 2001. Coming back to the thread, Labour's footprint is still poor in Cornwall and I think that their impressive gains in 2017 were a high water mark. My feeling is that a split anti Tory vote will be a problem for both Green, Lab and Lib Dems in this part of the world.

Yes apologies and I corrected earlier but Falmouth and Cambourne and its successor two seats are the realistic Labour targets in Cornwall

HYUFD

rottenborough said:

Morning all,

I suspect businesses will want to engage with Labour now, as it seems there is a good chance of them forming the next government. Unless Tories can do something about their under-50 vote problem, then the clock is ticking.

The dementia tax was the 40 to 50 problem, in 2015 the Tories tied there while still losing under 30s in 2017 you had to be over 47 to be likely to vote Tory

OldKingCole

eek said:

OldKingCole said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Borough, is that not due to the Lib Dems suffering through both always wanting coalition, yet spending most of their time talking about what they stopped the Conservatives doing rather than claiming credit, and that a lot of voters [unfairly] treated them as Labour-Light and were outraged when the party they voted for had the temerity to, er, enter government?

As a long-term Lib and then LD I look at the Coalition’s record in such areas as the (almost) abolition of legal aid, the attacks on Welfare benefits, tuition fees (although that’s not as bad as it could have been) and their failure to stop Lansley’s splitting of Health Promotion and other aspects of Public Health away from the Health Service and wonder what I was doing all those years. The policies of the coalition were not what I had, over the years, canvassed and leaflets for.

I admit that I don’t think, given the overal economic situation in 2010 that Clegg and the Parliamentary Party had much choice in the short-term, but I frequently posted here from about 2012 onwards that it was time to leave the coalition.

How could any tuition fee policy be worse than the one we currently have? If the fees don't kill you the interest rates they charge (RPI+3%) will...

IIRC the original plan was for earlier repayments and the current fees were added later. Stand to be corrected, of course.
TBH, the repayments don’t seem to be a cause of concern to my graduate grandchildren. And when we paid a (substantial) deposit on furniture for one of them tuition fees weren’t mentioned.

HYUFD

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yesas leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - -skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the longer 4 to 5 year visa for EU wor

Yep - we UK workers.

Over the last decade low paid UK workers have seen their incomes fall because of immigration but high paid UK workers have seen their incomes rise because of immigration so setting 2 year visas for low skilled immigration should reduce downwards pressure on wages at the lower end while the longer 4 to 5 year visas for high skilled immigration should ensure we still get enough high skilled workers

The economy and the pound will decide how the low-paid and low-skilled fare. Depending on how they perform, we will either need to bring in a lot of guest-workers, or we won't. Either way, wages do not look like they are heading for a demand-driven explosion at the bottom end. At the higher end, it may well be different, precisely because we are making the UK a less attractive place for those with a choice in these things to come and work. To compensate for that, wages will have to be a lot higher - either to make UK citizens switch jobs or to make it worth coming here.

Perhaps but remember C2s and DEs voted heavily Leave, ABs voted strongly Remain and C1s were almost tied

Allan

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

archer101au

SouthamObserver said:

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Going to have to pull you up with some facts there. EU growth for 2017 is forecast barely above 2% - hardly 'significant growth' - historically this is a pretty poor performance and the indicators are that it has peaked.

Before you point out how this is higher than the UK, UK economic growth has been 5% greater than the eurozone since 2008 (bloody Tories!). Not sure how was possible if we are totally reliant on EU growth.

Given the endless stream of negative propaganda about Brexit, the UK economy is performing pretty well. And, of course, unemployment in the UK is half what it is in the Eurozone.

If the UK is getting 10-15% export growth this is nothing short of phenomenal.

But obviously there is no way we can compete after Brexit etc etc.

Mortimer

Allan said:

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

Indeed. The metropolitan style of the 2015 and 2017 elections was what did for the LDs there. They had forgotten their provincial roots.

The party is entirely out of step nationally with the activist base.

OldKingCole

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Going to have to pull you up with some facts there. EU growth for 2017 is forecast barely above 2% - hardly 'significant growth' - historically this is a pretty poor performance and the indicators are that it has peaked.

Before you point out how this is higher than the UK, UK economic growth has been 5% greater than the eurozone since 2008 (bloody Tories!). Not sure how was possible if we are totally reliant on EU growth.

Given the endless stream of negative propaganda about Brexit, the UK economy is performing pretty well. And, of course, unemployment in the UK is half what it is in the Eurozone.

If the UK is getting 10-15% export growth this is nothing short of phenomenal.

But obviously there is no way we can compete after Brexit etc etc.

Current UK export growth is, surely due to the fall in the valiue of the £. Once stocks on non-local raw materials are exhausted, replacement will be more expensive and export prices will have to rise.

Mortimer

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Going to have to pull you up with some facts there. EU growth for 2017 is forecast barely above 2% - hardly 'significant growth' - historically this is a pretty poor performance and the indicators are that it has peaked.

Before you point out how this is higher than the UK, UK economic growth has been 5% greater than the eurozone since 2008 (bloody Tories!). Not sure how was possible if we are totally reliant on EU growth.

Given the endless stream of negative propaganda about Brexit, the UK economy is performing pretty well. And, of course, unemployment in the UK is half what it is in the Eurozone.

If the UK is getting 10-15% export growth this is nothing short of phenomenal.

But obviously there is no way we can compete after Brexit etc etc.

S_O's eeyorish grumblings are well known. It's amazing he hasn't mentioned 'swivel-eyed' Tories or 'malevolent' Mrs May yet this morning...

SouthamObserver

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

MikeSmithson said:

SquareRoot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour have a scarcely believable opportunity to gather the business vote. For as long as the Conservatives pursue Brexit, the great majority of businessmen and women who supported Remain and who are watching the floundering negotiations with appalled disbelief are going to be looking at their options.

Yesas leader..

With their loony and economically suicidal policy of Brexit the Tories have given up their right to lecture anybody on being the party of business. This is just like the corn laws in the 19th century.

Would those be the corn laws that helped business by causing starvation for the common man?

Brexit will be a success because it will make the life of the poorest better again; whether it is in the reduction of competition for scarce public resources or the increase in pay for those low paid private sector workerswho need it most.

When will this happen? The only way immigration is going to fall in any significant way is if the economy tanks.

They used to call it the brain drain.

Yep - -skilled EU citizens.

The 2 year visa for low skilled EU workers and the longer 4 to 5 year visa for EU wor

Yep - we UK workers.

Over the last decade low paid UK workers have seen their incomes fall because of immigration but high paid UK workers have seen their incomes rise because of immigration so setting 2 year visas for low skilled immigration should reduce downwards pressure on wages at the lower end while the longer 4 to 5 year visas for high skilled immigration should ensure we still get enough high skilled workers

The UK citizens switch jobs or to make it worth coming here.

Perhaps but remember C2s and DEs voted heavily Leave, ABs voted strongly Remain and C1s were almost tied

Looks like everyone - Leavers and Remainers - voted against their best economic interests!

SouthamObserver

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Going to have to pull you up with some facts there. EU growth for 2017 is forecast barely above 2% - hardly 'significant growth' - historically this is a pretty poor performance and the indicators are that it has peaked.

Before you point out how this is higher than the UK, UK economic growth has been 5% greater than the eurozone since 2008 (bloody Tories!). Not sure how was possible if we are totally reliant on EU growth.

Given the endless stream of negative propaganda about Brexit, the UK economy is performing pretty well. And, of course, unemployment in the UK is half what it is in the Eurozone.

If the UK is getting 10-15% export growth this is nothing short of phenomenal.

But obviously there is no way we can compete after Brexit etc etc.

The Eurozone is forecast to grow faster than was previously thought. It is our biggest market. The pound is low against the Euro. Our exports should be motoring ahead. As I recall, the most recent figures did indeed show exports to Europe rising, but falling in the RoW.

Of course we can compete after Brexit. Just as we can compete now. But Brexit will not make us more competitive.

Ishmael_Z

Mortimer said:

Allan said:

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

Indeed. The metropolitan style of the 2015 and 2017 elections was what did for the LDs there. They had forgotten their provincial roots.

The party is entirely out of step nationally with the activist base.

Let's not forget the immediate toys out of prammery from core LDs when the coalition was formed in 2010. Someone here said that a friend told him that the LDs coalishing with the tories made her feel as if she had been raped.

The_Apocalypse

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Mortimer

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

Mortimer

Caroline Flint news is very interesting - suggests that 15-25 Northern MPs with slender majorities will either sit on their hands or vote with the Govt tonight.

Good on them. Country before party.

Dura_Ace

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Labour left has waited 70 years for a sniff at socialism via parliamentary means. It's delusional to think they are going to lose interest when the prize is almost within their grasp.

Especially if they manage to chip away at Iron Pubes' "majority" with a few by-elections.

OldKingCole

Mortimer said:

Caroline Flint news is very interesting - suggests that 15-25 Northern MPs with slender majorities will either sit on their hands or vote with the Govt tonight.

Good on them. Country before party.

Plenty of evidence upthread that for opposition politicians voting with the Tories doesn’t turn out well.

TOPPING

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

rottenborough said:

Bootle:

"The pessimists are in for a shock."

"It looks as though by the end of the year we may be experiencing growth in exports of between 10pc and 15pc per annum..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/10/ignore-naysayers-competitive-pound-positive-economy/

Something is very badly wrong if we cannot continue to up our exports to our biggest foreign market at a time when it is experiencing significant growth and the pound is so low.

Going to have to pull you up with some facts there. EU growth for 2017 is forecast barely above 2% - hardly 'significant growth' - historically this is a pretty poor performance and the indicators are that it has peaked.

Before you point out how this is higher than the UK, UK economic growth has been 5% greater than the eurozone since 2008 (bloody Tories!). Not sure how was possible if we are totally reliant on EU growth.

Given the endless stream of negative propaganda about Brexit, the UK economy is performing pretty well. And, of course, unemployment in the UK is half what it is in the Eurozone.

If the UK is getting 10-15% export growth this is nothing short of phenomenal.

But obviously there is no way we can compete after Brexit etc etc.

Yep and what is the main component of UK GDP growth?

PeterC

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Tories may seek simply to time Corbyn out. At the the next GE, assuming the parliament runs to term, he will be 74 (Vince will be 79). No one has ever become PM for the first time at that age.

SouthamObserver

Mortimer said:

Caroline Flint news is very interesting - suggests that 15-25 Northern MPs with slender majorities will either sit on their hands or vote with the Govt tonight.

Good on them. Country before party.

The second reading vote was never really in doubt, so it's a good place in which to make a very public point if you have a slender majority in a Leave area. It's the committee stage and the third reading that actually matter.

Sunil_Prasannan

Mortimer said:

Allan said:

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

Indeed. The metropolitan style of the 2015 and 2017 elections was what did for the LDs there. They had forgotten their provincial roots.

The party is entirely out of step nationally with the activist base.

"We count 12 LibDem MPs, Lord Vader, but their majorities are so small, they're evading our Turbolasers!"

Theuniondivvie

Ishmael_Z said:

Mortimer said:

Allan said:

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

Indeed. The metropolitan style of the 2015 and 2017 elections was what did for the LDs there. They had forgotten their provincial roots.

The party is entirely out of step nationally with the activist base.

Let's not forget the immediate toys out of prammery from core LDs when the coalition was formed in 2010. Someone here said that a friend told him that the LDs coalishing with the tories made her feel as if she had been raped.

Tbf, a crude but not inaccurate metaphor for what a lot of LDs must have felt after the 2015 GE.

'Shouldn't have got carried away in the rose garden, and got drunk on that heady brew of "for the good of the country" and the whiff of ministerial car leather, should you luv.'

swing_voter

I still think the Lab vote in the SW is very weak. Look at the mayoralty vote in west country - that should have been a labour win and they managed to lose it. Labour did not do well in Plymouth (traditionally a Labour stronghold for quite a long time) and in spite of some success in Cornwall seats, a pretty low base in Cornwall council and other counties around. In essence, if Labour think they will get more than 5-6 seats in the next election from Cornwall, Devon and Somerset that is a pipe dream (and that includes the student vote in Exeter). Best off focussing on the real battle in Midlands, Cheshire, East of England etc......the distances, geography and hassle of trying to win a handful of seats in SW England mean I just cant see it being a battleground for Labour.

Mortimer

SouthamObserver said:

Mortimer said:

Caroline Flint news is very interesting - suggests that 15-25 Northern MPs with slender majorities will either sit on their hands or vote with the Govt tonight.

Good on them. Country before party.

The second reading vote was never really in doubt, so it's a good place in which to make a very public point if you have a slender majority in a Leave area. It's the committee stage and the third reading that actually matter.

The win wasn't in doubt, the size of the Govt majority was.

I suspect it'll be 30-40 now...

bigjohnowls

Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 41m41 minutes ago
More
Welsh Westminster VI:

LAB: 50% (+1)
CON: 32% (-2)
PC: 8% (-2)
LDEM: 4% (-1)
UKIP: 3% (+1)

via @YouGov, 05 - 07 Sep
Rounded chgs. w/ GE

OldKingCole

PeterC said:

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Tories may seek simply to time Corbyn out. At the the next GE, assuming the parliament runs to term, he will be 74 (Vince will be 79). No one has ever become PM for the first time at that age.

Gladstone did.

The_Apocalypse

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

I don't. I don't think some Tories understand quite how enthusiastic many of these people are for Corbyn and quite how much they hate the Conservative Party.

PeterC

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Caroline may be upsetting people but at least she is usig her brain. Labour's stance is opposition for it's own sake. This is not - or should not be - a proxy for the principle of Brexit. What are these muppets voting for? If the withdrawal bill were blocked - unlikely, I know - it would mean we would crash out of Europe without a functioning legal system.

JosiasJessop

Theuniondivvie said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Mortimer said:

Allan said:

rottenborough said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Throughout the West Country, support for the Lib Dems has collapsed. Some of that support has gone to the Conservatives, more of it to Labour, so they have a lot of strong second places now, in seats where previously, their support had been reduced to a rump.

It's striking how much that coalition deal stuffed the Lib Dems and changed the face of our politics.

There's a book to be written on the strange death of LibDems in South West. This area had been one of their absolute heartlands throughout my life.

The LD MPs in the South West would typically campaign as eurosceptics (or keep quiet about the EU) and then we had Clegg debating for the EU followed by the promulgation of a pro-EU line by the LDs which has probably finished off the LDs in the area.

Indeed. The metropolitan style of the 2015 and 2017 elections was what did for the LDs there. They had forgotten their provincial roots.

The party is entirely out of step nationally with the activist base.

Let's not forget the immediate toys out of prammery from core LDs when the coalition was formed in 2010. Someone here said that a friend told him that the LDs coalishing with the tories made her feel as if she had been raped.

Tbf, a crude but not inaccurate metaphor for what a lot of LDs must have felt after the 2015 GE.

'Shouldn't have got carried away in the rose garden, and got drunk on that heady brew of "for the good of the country" and the whiff of ministerial car leather, should you luv.'

That may or may not be the case, but I have little doubt that the Lib Dem's travails led to a much better government than if the Conservatives had been in government on their own.

In fact, I think the coalition government between 2010 and 2015 will be seen as an oasis of good government amidst some rather poor administrations. It was far from perfect, but the Lib Dems did a good job IMO - as did Cameron and his team.

The_Apocalypse

bigjohnowls said:

Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 41m41 minutes ago
More
Welsh Westminster VI:

LAB: 50% (+1)
CON: 32% (-2)
PC: 8% (-2)
LDEM: 4% (-1)
UKIP: 3% (+1)

via @YouGov, 05 - 07 Sep
Rounded chgs. w/ GE

I remember when quite a few Tories on here believed that Wales was trending Tory.

PeterC

OldKingCole said:

PeterC said:

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Tories may seek simply to time Corbyn out. At the the next GE, assuming the parliament runs to term, he will be 74 (Vince will be 79). No one has ever become PM for the first time at that age.

Gladstone did.

Gladstone was born on 29th December 1809. He first became PM on 3rd December 1868.

SouthamObserver

PeterC said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Caroline may be upsetting people but at least she is usig her brain. Labour's stance is opposition for it's own sake. This is not - or should not be - a proxy for the principle of Brexit. What are these muppets voting for? If the withdrawal bill were blocked - unlikely, I know - it would mean we would crash out of Europe without a functioning legal system.

We clearly need legislation. We do not need the legislation that has been put in front of the Commons. MPs who vote against the bill at second reading are making that point.

Andy_Cooke

eek said:

OldKingCole said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Borough, is that not due to the Lib Dems suffering through both always wanting coalition, yet spending most of their time talking about what they stopped the Conservatives doing rather than claiming credit, and that a lot of voters [unfairly] treated them as Labour-Light and were outraged when the party they voted for had the temerity to, er, enter government?

As a long-term Lib and then LD I look at the Coalition’s record in such areas as the (almost) abolition of legal aid, the attacks on Welfare benefits, tuition fees (although that’s not as bad as it could have been) and their failure to stop Lansley’s splitting of Health Promotion and other aspects of Public Health away from the Health Service and wonder what I was doing all those years. The policies of the coalition were not what I had, over the years, canvassed and leaflets for.

I admit that I don’t think, given the overal economic situation in 2010 that Clegg and the Parliamentary Party had much choice in the short-term, but I frequently posted here from about 2012 onwards that it was time to leave the coalition.

How could any tuition fee policy be worse than the one we currently have? If the fees don't kill you the interest rates they charge (RPI+3%) will...

Well, one where you actually have to pay them back would be worse, off the top of my head.
Or you're liable to pay something when you can't afford it.
Or one where the interest rate change means something to graduates other than the very richest ones.

OldKingCole

PeterC said:

OldKingCole said:

PeterC said:

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Tories may seek simply to time Corbyn out. At the the next GE, assuming the parliament runs to term, he will be 74 (Vince will be 79). No one has ever become PM for the first time at that age.

Gladstone did.

Gladstone was born on 29th December 1809. He first became PM on 3rd December 1868.

And for the fourth (and last time) in 1892. But I see what you mean!

bigjohnowls

The_Apocalypse said:

bigjohnowls said:

Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 41m41 minutes ago
More
Welsh Westminster VI:

LAB: 50% (+1)
CON: 32% (-2)
PC: 8% (-2)
LDEM: 4% (-1)
UKIP: 3% (+1)

via @YouGov, 05 - 07 Sep
Rounded chgs. w/ GE

I remember when quite a few Tories on here believed that Wales was trending Tory.

"Does anyone believe Labour are on ............!!"

PeterC

SouthamObserver said:

PeterC said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Caroline may be upsetting people but at least she is usig her brain. Labour's stance is opposition for it's own sake. This is not - or should not be - a proxy for the principle of Brexit. What are these muppets voting for? If the withdrawal bill were blocked - unlikely, I know - it would mean we would crash out of Europe without a functioning legal system.

We clearly need legislation. We do not need the legislation that has been put in front of the Commons. MPs who vote against the bill at second reading are making that point.

The legislation can be ammended as the bill progresses. Prominent Tories dislike the detail but they are not going to vote against the principle of the bill at second reading. Corbyn is grandstanding to the anti-Brexit lobby - smart politics, maybe, but his stance has little merit beyond that.

SouthamObserver

PeterC said:

SouthamObserver said:

PeterC said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Caroline may be upsetting people but at least she is usig her brain. Labour's stance is opposition for it's own sake. This is not - or should not be - a proxy for the principle of Brexit. What are these muppets voting for? If the withdrawal bill were blocked - unlikely, I know - it would mean we would crash out of Europe without a functioning legal system.

We clearly need legislation. We do not need the legislation that has been put in front of the Commons. MPs who vote against the bill at second reading are making that point.

The legislation can be ammended as the bill progresses. Prominent Tories dislike the detail but they are not going to vote against the principle of the bill at second reading. Corbyn is grandstading to the anti-Brexit lobby - smart politics, maybe, but his stance makes little merit beyond that.

Opposition opposes shock!

Nonregla

I first asked this at some unearthly hour, so perhaps few saw it. Does someone here know the date of the most recent Tory-led cabinet that was empty of Old Etonians?

A friend asked me this a few days ago and whenever it was I think it was no later than 1806. Was it one of the Pitt the Younger administrations?

SouthamObserver

The_Apocalypse said:

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

I don't. I don't think some Tories understand quite how enthusiastic many of these people are for Corbyn and quite how much they hate the Conservative Party.

Yep - the Tories seem determined to persuade people like me living in marginal constituencies that the absolute priority at the next general election has to be to use our votes to prevent a Tory government.

PeterC

OldKingCole said:

PeterC said:

OldKingCole said:

PeterC said:

Mortimer said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Somehow struggle to see the fire lasting 4.5 years....

The Tories may seek simply to time Corbyn out. At the the next GE, assuming the parliament runs to term, he will be 74 (Vince will be 79). No one has ever become PM for the first time at that age.

Gladstone did.

Gladstone was born on 29th December 1809. He first became PM on 3rd December 1868.

And for the fourth (and last time) in 1892. But I see what you mean!

He certainly kept buggering on, didn't he? Good man.

I do think there is a big difference between doing a job for the first time and returning to it after a break. There is a even bigger difference between the scope of the job in the 19th century and the twenty-first!

TOPPING

SouthamObserver said:

PeterC said:

SouthamObserver said:

PeterC said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Caroline Flint has decided to upset both Corbynistas and anti-Corbynistas on the Left with her decision today. I even saw some on Twitter calling for her deselection.

foxinsoxuk UK makes a good point about Momentum. They are very fired up and will likely be consistently campaigning throughout the country until whenever the next GE will be. In that sense, the expansion of the Labour membership is highly useful to Corbyn. Meanwhile it doesn't seem that the Conservatives are doing very much to increase their membership, or indeed broaden it.

Caroline may be upsetting people but at least she is usig her brain. Labour's stance is opposition for it's own sake. This is not - or should not be - a proxy for the principle of Brexit. What are these muppets voting for? If the withdrawal bill were blocked - unlikely, I know - it would mean we would crash out of Europe without a functioning legal system.

We clearly need legislation. We do not need the legislation that has been put in front of the Commons. MPs who vote against the bill at second reading are making that point.

The legislation can be ammended as the bill progresses. Prominent Tories dislike the detail but they are not going to vote against the principle of the bill at second reading. Corbyn is grandstading to the anti-Brexit lobby - smart politics, maybe, but his stance makes little merit beyond that.

Opposition opposes shock!

Exactly - Corbyn is justified in opposing every single bill that the Govt proposes on anything because, well, that is his job. He leads a party whose raison d'etre is to replace the existing government. Why? Because in every sphere Labour believes it is better for the country to have Labour policies than Conservative ones. Hence the charge that it is putting party before country is ludicrous because to embrace such a narrative would be for Lab to admit that the Cons have the right idea on governing.