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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    Andy_JS said:

    The death of England's middle classes. Interesting article.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9000951/the-missing-middle/

    One of the most interesting parts of the article:
    "Jaron Lanier, the Silicon Valley philosopher and author of Who Owns The Future?, has shown how technology and the free-flow of information are removing secure, middle-class jobs. Far from being egalitarian, the digital revolution has reduced financial rewards for those in the middle — and concentrated wealth at the very top. While outsourcing of clerical work is hardly new, it has started to affect the middle office — not just the back office. Once, it was production-line workers who found themselves laid off and their jobs shipped to the Far East. Now it’s research chemists, paralegals and clerks who are finding their jobs outsourced. Firms such as Microsoft, Pfizer and Philips increasingly carry out their research in China."
    yes that is increasingly the case. IT companies for example are hollowing themselves out in this country with continued off-shoring. It highlights a trend my sparring partner on the other side of Warwickshire Mr Southam Observer frequently poses, how do we manage an increasing welath gap ? Especially when those at the top are mobile, have better advice than the government and effectively pay tax on a discretionary basis.

    No-one yet on left or right has faced up to this let alone formulated an answer.

    Globally agreed and homogenized tax rates/standards/agreements. Probably a shift to taxing sales over income also, as the previous sentence is 'difficult' to achieve.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    There was an interesting article on BBG yesterday about the destruction of that archetypal middle class profession, the bar.

    It is being decimated.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    Andy_JS said:

    The death of England's middle classes. Interesting article.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9000951/the-missing-middle/

    One of the most interesting parts of the article:
    "Jaron Lanier, the Silicon Valley philosopher and author of Who Owns The Future?, has shown how technology and the free-flow of information are removing secure, middle-class jobs. Far from being egalitarian, the digital revolution has reduced financial rewards for those in the middle — and concentrated wealth at the very top. While outsourcing of clerical work is hardly new, it has started to affect the middle office — not just the back office. Once, it was production-line workers who found themselves laid off and their jobs shipped to the Far East. Now it’s research chemists, paralegals and clerks who are finding their jobs outsourced. Firms such as Microsoft, Pfizer and Philips increasingly carry out their research in China."
    yes that is increasingly the case. IT companies for example are hollowing themselves out in this country with continued off-shoring. It highlights a trend my sparring partner on the other side of Warwickshire Mr Southam Observer frequently poses, how do we manage an increasing welath gap ? Especially when those at the top are mobile, have better advice than the government and effectively pay tax on a discretionary basis.

    No-one yet on left or right has faced up to this let alone formulated an answer.

    One of the problems is that we are not generating enough people with the relevant skills. One computer firm I know is opening a large office in Romania. Not to replace existing staff (at least not yet), but for new work.

    Put simply, they cannot get the staff in the UK, even after pulling a fair few highly-skilled migrants in.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting that today's YouGov is showing the following changes from GE2010:

    Con: -3%
    Lab: +7%
    LD: -15%
    UKIP: +10%

    On the fact of it, it looks like most of the UKIP increase is coming from parties other than the Conservatives.

    Thought a lot coming from NOTA, but not sure how the pollsters woulf present that info given the DK/NOTA adjustments
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I honestly wonder if Brian May has lost his marbles

    " The musician and animal rights campaigner claimed that the only difference between critics of the charity and child abusers was that in RSPCA cases “the creatures involved are non-human.”

    He also warned that implementing a badger cull could ultimately lead to a return of the Dark Age practice of burning supposed witches at the stake...

    But May, who is a vice-president of the charity, accused its critics of “nothing less than a vicious, calculated attempt to discredit the RSPCA and destroy its powers to prevent cruelty to animals. “Imagine if a bunch of child abusers then banded together to spread vile propaganda against the NSPCC, its officers, and the very children that were abused.

    “This terrible scenario is exactly what the RSPCA is being subjected to, the only difference being that the creatures involved are non-human.” The charity’s detractors were “pro-cruelty”, he claimed, and formed a small but powerful group of rich, well-connected and “utterly ruthless” people.

    He also suggested that the true motive of supporters of the planned badger cull was to bring back “the despicable blood sports” of fox hunting, hare coursing, and stag hunting, which were outlawed by the Hunting Act of 2004. “There is no reason to suppose that it would stop there,” he added. “We may see a return to legalised badger-baiting, bear-baiting, and even the burning of supposed witches at the stake. This is the crossroads. “Britain at this point either allows (Prime Minister David) Cameron’s government to propel us back into the Dark Ages of barbarism, or we all stand up and cry “No!”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/10259160/Criticising-the-RSPCA-is-like-wanting-paedophiles-to-escape-justice-Brian-May-claims.html
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I see maternity leave for women having kids is a hot topic today.

    I'm surprised a woman's rights to have kids whilst she's working are even being debated, but there it is.

    What should be debated are the rights of workers who are expected to 'fill in' for absent woman having kids. Often they are simply expected to work harder or for longer hours (especially at small companies) as if nothing had changed. Employers often pay lip service to 'being a person down' when actually they expect the same output.

    This can result in very significant extra stress and strains which do not come with the original job description, and that is also not acceptable.

    Any firm granting maternity leave should be compelled in law to hire a replacement worker of some sort.

    If there are 'victims' of maternity leave its not the employer, its the fellow workers of the leaver.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited August 2013

    Andy_JS said:

    The death of England's middle classes. Interesting article.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9000951/the-missing-middle/

    One of the most interesting parts of the article:
    "Jaron Lanier, the Silicon Valley philosopher and author of Who Owns The Future?, has shown how technology and the free-flow of information are removing secure, middle-class jobs. Far from being egalitarian, the digital revolution has reduced financial rewards for those in the middle — and concentrated wealth at the very top. While outsourcing of clerical work is hardly new, it has started to affect the middle office — not just the back office. Once, it was production-line workers who found themselves laid off and their jobs shipped to the Far East. Now it’s research chemists, paralegals and clerks who are finding their jobs outsourced. Firms such as Microsoft, Pfizer and Philips increasingly carry out their research in China."
    yes that is increasingly the case. IT companies for example are hollowing themselves out in this country with continued off-shoring. It highlights a trend my sparring partner on the other side of Warwickshire Mr Southam Observer frequently poses, how do we manage an increasing welath gap ? Especially when those at the top are mobile, have better advice than the government and effectively pay tax on a discretionary basis.

    No-one yet on left or right has faced up to this let alone formulated an answer.
    One of the problems is that we are not generating enough people with the relevant skills. One computer firm I know is opening a large office in Romania. Not to replace existing staff (at least not yet), but for new work.

    Put simply, they cannot get the staff in the UK, even after pulling a fair few highly-skilled migrants in.Ed West had a piece the other day suggesting that the problem is that skilled british workers emigrate in larger numbers than skilled foreign workers immigrate.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/is-eastern-european-immigration-a-result-of-the-working-class-being-demonised/
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited August 2013


    @Slackbladder

    Well so far your analysis basically says we're screwed, and our politicians are trying to get us screwed faster. In reality though if the UK is not going to head to a crisis society we need to be looking at what we can do to slow the trends and give ourselves breathing space to rethink our nation. Currently what we teach at universities isn't cutting the mustard. The whole post communism economic consensus on free trade and globalisation doesn't appear to work for us. No doubt we'll get some trend come out from the US which will be the next big thing for consultants to sell and we'll half understand it and implement it badly. It would be nice to think that maybe just once our academic institutions could come up with some original thought specific to UK conditions but I won't hold my breath.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The UK has natural disadvantages as well as advantages for working - eg crap weather and no lebensraum.

    Not much we can do about either.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    taffys said:

    The UK has natural disadvantages as well as advantages for working - eg crap weather and no lebensraum.

    Not much we can do about either.</blockquote

    And probably one of the more braindead political classes.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Plato said:

    I honestly wonder if Brian May has lost his marbles

    " The musician and animal rights campaigner claimed that the only difference between critics of the charity and child abusers was that in RSPCA cases “the creatures involved are non-human.”

    He also warned that implementing a badger cull could ultimately lead to a return of the Dark Age practice of burning supposed witches at the stake...

    But May, who is a vice-president of the charity, accused its critics of “nothing less than a vicious, calculated attempt to discredit the RSPCA and destroy its powers to prevent cruelty to animals. “Imagine if a bunch of child abusers then banded together to spread vile propaganda against the NSPCC, its officers, and the very children that were abused.

    “This terrible scenario is exactly what the RSPCA is being subjected to, the only difference being that the creatures involved are non-human.” The charity’s detractors were “pro-cruelty”, he claimed, and formed a small but powerful group of rich, well-connected and “utterly ruthless” people.

    He also suggested that the true motive of supporters of the planned badger cull was to bring back “the despicable blood sports” of fox hunting, hare coursing, and stag hunting, which were outlawed by the Hunting Act of 2004. “There is no reason to suppose that it would stop there,” he added. “We may see a return to legalised badger-baiting, bear-baiting, and even the burning of supposed witches at the stake. This is the crossroads. “Britain at this point either allows (Prime Minister David) Cameron’s government to propel us back into the Dark Ages of barbarism, or we all stand up and cry “No!”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/10259160/Criticising-the-RSPCA-is-like-wanting-paedophiles-to-escape-justice-Brian-May-claims.html

    Next week he'll be on about Badger Buchenwald and how Hitler hated badgers too.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    taffys said:

    I see maternity leave for women having kids is a hot topic today.

    I'm surprised a woman's rights to have kids whilst she's working are even being debated, but there it is.

    What should be debated are the rights of workers who are expected to 'fill in' for absent woman having kids. Often they are simply expected to work harder or for longer hours (especially at small companies) as if nothing had changed. Employers often pay lip service to 'being a person down' when actually they expect the same output.

    This can result in very significant extra stress and strains which do not come with the original job description, and that is also not acceptable.

    Any firm granting maternity leave should be compelled in law to hire a replacement worker of some sort.

    If there are 'victims' of maternity leave its not the employer, its the fellow workers of the leaver.

    I think the bigger issue is flexitime and flexible working for parents and carers.

    It doesn't particularly effect my industry, where come-in-when-you-want normally applies, but flexitime working has to be fair to all: single people should not have to constantly work the less favourable or graveyard shifts for no extra pay.

    Anecdotally, it is also very hard for employers who need a certain number of staff working at any one time to fit in with staff wanting to be absent at school leaving times. This is a much longer-term effect than maternity or paternity leave.

    All these problems would be eased somewhat if more of the homemaking and parenting duties were shared between both parents where possible. But that would have Bloom choking on his porridge.

    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1616
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Currently what we teach at universities isn't cutting the mustard.

    That really is not true

    When you look at the global university ratings, the UK has four of the top 10 globally and seven of the top thirty.

    No other European country except Switzerland has even one university in the top thirty. (QS ratings).
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    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Plato said:

    I honestly wonder if Brian May has lost his marbles

    " The musician and animal rights campaigner claimed that the only difference between critics of the charity and child abusers was that in RSPCA cases “the creatures involved are non-human.”

    He also warned that implementing a badger cull could ultimately lead to a return of the Dark Age practice of burning supposed witches at the stake...

    But May, who is a vice-president of the charity, accused its critics of “nothing less than a vicious, calculated attempt to discredit the RSPCA and destroy its powers to prevent cruelty to animals. “Imagine if a bunch of child abusers then banded together to spread vile propaganda against the NSPCC, its officers, and the very children that were abused.

    “This terrible scenario is exactly what the RSPCA is being subjected to, the only difference being that the creatures involved are non-human.” The charity’s detractors were “pro-cruelty”, he claimed, and formed a small but powerful group of rich, well-connected and “utterly ruthless” people.

    He also suggested that the true motive of supporters of the planned badger cull was to bring back “the despicable blood sports” of fox hunting, hare coursing, and stag hunting, which were outlawed by the Hunting Act of 2004. “There is no reason to suppose that it would stop there,” he added. “We may see a return to legalised badger-baiting, bear-baiting, and even the burning of supposed witches at the stake. This is the crossroads. “Britain at this point either allows (Prime Minister David) Cameron’s government to propel us back into the Dark Ages of barbarism, or we all stand up and cry “No!”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/countryside/10259160/Criticising-the-RSPCA-is-like-wanting-paedophiles-to-escape-justice-Brian-May-claims.html

    Brian May should stick to music and astronomy because he appears to know very little about the disastrous effect the untrammeled rise of the badger population has had on our indigenous wildlife. Badgers have been now unjustifiably protected for several years now and as a result a number of species on which they prey are showing a dangerous decline in numbers. These people never see the bigger picture because their prejudices distort their world view.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,368
    edited August 2013
    As a partner in a relatively small firm one of the things that really bugged me about maternity pay was the accrual of holiday entitlement whilst on it. So someone who had been off for 9 months or so would supposedly return only to immediately take 3 weeks paid holiday. This really did not seem fair.

    As a husband we treated my wife's SMP as something of a joke. As a higher paid worker she got something like £50 a week after the first 6 weeks. I believe the figure is now over £100 (edit £136.78) but it is still a pretty modest sum for anyone that was on decent wages and paying lots of tax and NI before they went off.

    As a person not employed by the public sector I increasingly resent the extremely generous payments made there which are typically a full year on full pay subject to a qualifying period. In my experience this drove able solicitors into working for local government or the fiscal service during their child bearing years since nothing even remotely comparable was elsewhere.

    So what you think of maternity pay really depends where you are coming from. Would excluding firms with less than 5 employees be worth researching?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited August 2013
    taffys said:

    Currently what we teach at universities isn't cutting the mustard.

    That really is not true

    When you look at the global university ratings, the UK has four of the top 10 globally and seven of the top thirty.

    No other European country except Switzerland has even one university in the top thirty. (QS ratings).

    It's true insofar as it's not making us wealthier. Our economy only feels wealtheir since it's debt fuelled. Where are the new products, the new ideas on the economy, the free thinkers ?
    All you're telling me is we're good at teaching 1980s economics.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I think the bigger issue is flexitime and flexible working for parents and carers.

    The principle is the same. You have workers who are taking significant time off their jobs for whatever reason.

    In the meantime, someone has to keep the enterprise going.

    In short, far too little consideration has been given to the rights of the poor bloody infantry.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    taffys said:

    I think the bigger issue is flexitime and flexible working for parents and carers.

    The principle is the same. You have workers who are taking significant time off their jobs for whatever reason.

    In the meantime, someone has to keep the enterprise going.

    In short, far too little consideration has been given to the rights of the poor bloody infantry.

    I agree. But maternity leave will only be for a couple of years, even if the couple have two or three children. The flexible working lasts until the child is 16 in most cases.

    I'm not sure the change to allow anyone to apply for flexible working will help matters ...
This discussion has been closed.