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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Chancellor Hammond may not be PM (yet) but he’s the one curren

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Chancellor Hammond may not be PM (yet) but he’s the one currently running the show & shaping Brexit

Today’s Times front page is the latest reminder of the rise and rise of Chancellor Philip Hammond in the government suggesting that he’s positioning himself as the next party leader and PM.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    First, like Mrs May.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Remain voters will feel Hammond ismaking a good job of getting a least-bad Brexit. Leavers will be less keen, and leavers who are also rivals even less so. So, paradoxically, his display of confidence will both impress much of the public while leading to stronger attacks on him.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    You're right.

    Corbyn is no fan of Hammond.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    FPT:
    Cyclefree said:

    Barnesian said:

    nunuone said:

    tlg86 said:
    Maybe there is still room for a socially conservative party today but it's a room that's getting smaller every year.

    Liberal values are continuing their long, slow but inexorable rise to ascendancy.

    Thankfully!
    While on some issues you are right, the trend is not always in that direction. We saw the licentuousness of the Restoration and Georgians morph into the purtanical Victorians for example.
    .
    I think there is ever widening empathy and tolerance that has embraced slaves, then females, then homosexuals, then foreigners, then intelligent animals such as apes and dolphins and will slowly widen to cover the animal kingdom so that we all become vegetarian.

    I think it is driven by mass communication and the arts (books, films and TV) that portray "others" in a sympathetic light or from their point of view. This, combined with rising standards of living and education so that people don't feel threatened by "others", is what is driving liberal values. But those that feel threatened or lack empathy remain illiberal.
    So-called liberals would do well to try and have some understanding of and empathy with those who feel threatened - perhaps by understanding why they feel threatened - rather than baldly asserting that those who are - in liberals' eyes - illiberal must therefore lack empathy.

    Liberals do their cause no good at all with this sort of dismissive attitude to those who have a different view.

    Liberals don't generally feel threatened by "others" because those "others" don't often impinge on their lives in a negative way. When and if that starts happening let's see what their views are then.
    Absolutely Ms Cyclefree.

    An Aussie friend of mine who lives here posted on fb this excellent piece about progressives not understanding the working classes in Aus; applies to UK too.

    I think it is bang on. I'm lucky enough to have one parent from the old working class and one from the public school educated middle classes. Family parties are quite starkly different!

    https://meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defence-of-the-bad-white-working-class/
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    You're right.

    Corbyn is no fan of Hammond.
    Only 2 of the last 7 Labour leaders have been PM; I see no reason why Corbyn will make that 3. Too disliked by middle England.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,720
    Since he's the one rowing back on his 'Tax Haven Brexit' plan.....this is good news for his prospects how? Who is his audience? The EU - "No, we won't be a threat, so no need to offer concessions'? Remain voters? - He's in the wrong party......feels like perceiving his approaching twilight he's enjoying his last days in the sun....
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487
    edited July 2017
    I'm on Team Hammond* and I only back Tories who make or I think will make net seat gains.

    *I'm also on Team Hunt.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    Another dreary Brextremist ready to let the country go to hell.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    edited July 2017

    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    Another dreary Brextremist ready to let the country go to hell.
    Surely Remainers are on the extremes now? Disagreeing with Leavers and democrats alike.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    edited July 2017
    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    What's wet about Ken Clarke? As a minister he had no end of run ins with public sector unions and as chancellor he balanced the books and reduced the size of the state. The only reason Tories regard him as wet is that he refuses to pander to their loony-tune views on Europe.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Hungary post-mortem analysis up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/hungary-post-race-analysis-2017.html

    Having slept on it, I've decided it was stupid of me not to split a stake between Sainz and Vandoorne to win that group. But there we are. It's easier picking winners after events than before.

    On-topic: I wonder if this harms or helps his leadership prospects.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    Another dreary Brextremist ready to let the country go to hell.
    Ooh handbags.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    edited July 2017
    While he is in charge, he is clearly using the opportunity to put his own views on Brexit out there. Given that a few years ago he was considered an arch-Leaver, it is intriguing to note how much they have softened.

    Where I'm not sure I agree with either this header or Rentoul is in the conclusion they draw that Hammond is seizing power within the government of his own volition. I think it most unlikely that he would be saying such things without May's approval. That would be true of his original 'Singapore of Europe' comments too.

    As he was not associated with some of the - ahem - less successful aspects of the manifesto, however, he is well placed to row back on them. He is also, as a generally respected and very senior figure, likely to be heeded. My guess is that this is an agreed strategy to take some of the heat off the PM and prepare the ground for a new approach that she can later say she was bounced into.

    What such comments really do show is how disastrous an error it was not to have him duffing up John Macdonnell during the campaign. Even that pales into insignificance besides not consulting him over key issues in the manifesto.

    Whatever Theresa May's qualifications to be PM, she has displayed a judgment of personnel almost as lousy as Gordon Brown's - and that is saying something.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    A BoJo pet project has had its funding frozen. This must all be coordinated and done with May's approval.

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/891910200478838784
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited July 2017
    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

    To those of us outside the Party he looks like the least bad option, but didn't the same Party once choose IDS over Kenneth Clark?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Since he's the one rowing back on his 'Tax Haven Brexit' plan.....this is good news for his prospects how? Who is his audience? The EU - "No, we won't be a threat, so no need to offer concessions'? Remain voters? - He's in the wrong party......feels like perceiving his approaching twilight he's enjoying his last days in the sun....

    Hammond seems to have understood that voters rejected the imperial Brexiteer, no surrender, fight them on the beaches, they need us more than we need them Brexit strategy that May put in front of them on 8th June.

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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Interesting thread header as BBC R2 news is saying the Chancellor is rebutting suggestions about us becoming a tax haven as him u-turning on what he'd suggested earlier this year....
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Call me Mr Suspicious but I get the feeling you're not his biggest fan :wink:

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311
    I think Hammond is right to focus on minimising any disruption that Brexit may cause and to pay attention to the practicalities. There is a significant minority who supported Leave who are delusional about how complicated leaving is going to be. Quite strange really because most of the complexity arises from the insidious way that the EU came to set the rules and be the decision maker over vast tracts of our public life, a point you would have thought Leavers might have been aware of.

    A major part of this, however, is the zombification of May. Had she got her large majority Hammond would not be in a job. As it is she not only can't sack him, she can't even contradict him. I still struggle to see this government remaining viable for an extended period.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

    To those of us outside the Party he looks like the least bad option, but didn't the same Party once choose IDS over Kenneth Clark?
    That was in opposition when Labour had a majority of around 170.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

    To those of us outside the Party he looks like the least bad option, but didn't the same Party once choose IDS over Kenneth Clark?

    Oh yes. The right seems to be as predominant inside the Conservative party as the left is inside labour. Both parties' memberships give every impression of sitting at the extremes. Thankfully, Hammond is untouchable for now. But he'll be gone as soon as the swivel-eyed can engineer it.

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    This government is a basket case. Given what's going on its quite shameful.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    Interesting thread header as BBC R2 news is saying the Chancellor is rebutting suggestions about us becoming a tax haven as him u-turning on what he'd suggested earlier this year....

    It may be a sign that he now expects an acceptable deal. Bear in mind that he has consistently said, right the way through, that while no deal would be a disaster the punishment deal that Juncker has been pushing for would be far worse. That was the context of his comments on Singapore.

    Given his seniority and his recent comments on a brief transitional deal that may be an encouraging sign.

    Or of course it is possible he is as delusional as a Momentum activist and has interpreted a secret handshake from Barnier as a sign we may be allowed to apply rules French fashion allowing us to stay in. But - TGOHF notwithstanding - I think he's shrewder than that.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044
    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    Ken Clarke's a giant of a politician (*), and the Conservative Party should be praising him to the rafters. Sadly, because of his position on the EU, he's treated very poorly indeed by some within the party.

    The same goes for Heseltine, who transformed London.

    But sadly, some view everything through the prism of the EU, and people are judged not on ability, or record, but on how EUphobic they are.

    (*) In all senses ;)
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487
    edited July 2017
    The election has left Mrs May as impotent as a battalion of eunuchs, she needs to either piss or get off the pot.

    Having a zombie Prime Minister is not good for the country and makes Corbyn inevitable as PM.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited July 2017

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Corbyn also has a pulse, which by itself now puts him ahead of May.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread header as BBC R2 news is saying the Chancellor is rebutting suggestions about us becoming a tax haven as him u-turning on what he'd suggested earlier this year....

    It may be a sign that he now expects an acceptable deal. Bear in mind that he has consistently said, right the way through, that while no deal would be a disaster the punishment deal that Juncker has been pushing for would be far worse. That was the context of his comments on Singapore.

    Given his seniority and his recent comments on a brief transitional deal that may be an encouraging sign.

    Or of course it is possible he is as delusional as a Momentum activist and has interpreted a secret handshake from Barnier as a sign we may be allowed to apply rules French fashion allowing us to stay in. But - TGOHF notwithstanding - I think he's shrewder than that.

    Perhaps Hammond has grasped that Juncker is a monkey, not an organ grinder, and has very little influence over how the negotiations will proceed.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Corbyn also has a pulse, which by itself now puts him ahead of May.

    Frankly, they are lucky to have each other.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487
    As least Hammond is committed to ensuring the country has strong and stable leadership.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Mr. Eagles, are you asserting she has all the authority of the deputy under-curate of Tewkesbury?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    I'm on Team Hammond* and I only back Tories who make or I think will make net seat gains.

    *I'm also on Team Hunt.

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/891923226036752384
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?
    Hunt also survived some very dodgy stuff over sucking up to Murdoch to sweeten that a Sky takeover bid, which he really shouldn't have done, and there were fairly solid rumours that May tried to sack him but couldn't because her designated replacement refused the job. There's always been a sense that he's there because of his friends rather than his faculty for efficiency.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Labour has talent on the backbenches. Tories have talent at the Evening Standard.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487

    Mr. Eagles, are you asserting she has all the authority of the deputy under-curate of Tewkesbury?

    Even less than that.

    She's like General Patton in charge of FUSAG.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.


    We'll have to agree to disagree. This Tory cabinet is the worst I have ever seen.

    A year ago I would have agreed that the Tories were way out in front. But no longer.

    Rayner fought a battle with McDonnell over Labour education policy and McDonnell won. The policy McDonnell wanted is now being put into reverse PDQ.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-mcdonnell-denies-row-with-angela-rayner-over-tuition-fees-policy-labour-manifesto-2017_uk_5918cce7e4b0fe039b3583f6

    Rayner was right, of course.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.
    A Conservative poster casting aspersions on the Shadow Cabinet is chucking around stones in an extremely glassy house.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?
    Hunt also survived some very dodgy stuff over sucking up to Murdoch to sweeten that a Sky takeover bid, which he really shouldn't have done, and there were fairly solid rumours that May tried to sack him but couldn't because her designated replacement refused the job. There's always been a sense that he's there because of his friends rather than his faculty for efficiency.
    No one pushes Jerry Hunt around
    Well they do, but not for long
    'Cause when I get fit and grow bionic arms
    The whole world's gonna wish it weren't born
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread header as BBC R2 news is saying the Chancellor is rebutting suggestions about us becoming a tax haven as him u-turning on what he'd suggested earlier this year....

    It may be a sign that he now expects an acceptable deal. Bear in mind that he has consistently said, right the way through, that while no deal would be a disaster the punishment deal that Juncker has been pushing for would be far worse. That was the context of his comments on Singapore.

    Given his seniority and his recent comments on a brief transitional deal that may be an encouraging sign.

    Or of course it is possible he is as delusional as a Momentum activist and has interpreted a secret handshake from Barnier as a sign we may be allowed to apply rules French fashion allowing us to stay in. But - TGOHF notwithstanding - I think he's shrewder than that.

    Perhaps Hammond has grasped that Juncker is a monkey, not an organ grinder, and has very little influence over how the negotiations will proceed.

    He's still pot stirring to nasty effect (his comments on the ECJ are increasingly peculiar). The sooner he is banned from even attending, the better.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread header as BBC R2 news is saying the Chancellor is rebutting suggestions about us becoming a tax haven as him u-turning on what he'd suggested earlier this year....

    It may be a sign that he now expects an acceptable deal. Bear in mind that he has consistently said, right the way through, that while no deal would be a disaster the punishment deal that Juncker has been pushing for would be far worse. That was the context of his comments on Singapore.

    Given his seniority and his recent comments on a brief transitional deal that may be an encouraging sign.

    Or of course it is possible he is as delusional as a Momentum activist and has interpreted a secret handshake from Barnier as a sign we may be allowed to apply rules French fashion allowing us to stay in. But - TGOHF notwithstanding - I think he's shrewder than that.

    Perhaps Hammond has grasped that Juncker is a monkey, not an organ grinder, and has very little influence over how the negotiations will proceed.

    He's still pot stirring to nasty effect (his comments on the ECJ are increasingly peculiar). The sooner he is banned from even attending, the better.

    The Brexiteer right love him as they can project what he says onto those who actually matter. For that reason alone, the EU27 would be well advised to lock him away.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The election has left Mrs May as impotent as a battalion of eunuchs, she needs to either piss or get off the pot.

    Having a zombie Prime Minister is not good for the country and makes Corbyn inevitable as PM.

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/891698884443078656
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Jeremy Hunt is a natural politician. If he wins the premiership I expect he will bring all the enthusiasm and goodwill he has generated in the NHS to the government more generally. It will be breathtaking.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    edited July 2017
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour.

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    edited July 2017

    ydoethur said:

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.

    We'll have to agree to disagree. This Tory cabinet is the worst I have ever seen.

    A year ago I would have agreed that the Tories were way out in front. But no longer.

    Rayner fought a battle with McDonnell over Labour education policy and McDonnell won. The policy McDonnell wanted is now being put into reverse PDQ.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-mcdonnell-denies-row-with-angela-rayner-over-tuition-fees-policy-labour-manifesto-2017_uk_5918cce7e4b0fe039b3583f6

    Rayner was right, of course.
    We can if you like, but it won't make you right on this particular issue (which is actually very unusual for you - you usually are right). Tuition fees were at best a side show in the real issues over education. All they really confirmed was that Labour under Corbyn are fundamentally dishonest and obsessed with spin, which after Traingate, Eisen, the IRA etc we all knew already and which clearly under the circumstances mattered less than other things.

    The crunch point is A-level and GCSE and her proposals on that (diverting funds to pay for lifelong learning) and secondary education more generally were not merely misguided but actively and to all appearances deliberately harmful. Of course, if she, Corbyn and Macdonnell wish to abolish private education, that's a fair position to take, but they need to do it openly, honestly and with realism about the huge strain that would impose on the state sector and the massive extra costs required.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.
    A Conservative poster casting aspersions on the Shadow Cabinet is chucking around stones in an extremely glassy house.
    I'm not a Conservative.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    Jonathan said:

    Labour has talent on the backbenches. Tories have talent at the Evening Standard.

    I never, ever thought I would see you describe Osborne as talented...
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Agreed. Remainers are projecting on to him the successs they want him to have.

    He is clearly isolated, and unlikely to be given a position in any subsequent government.
    He is the new Ken Clarke - wet and Europhillic enough for the lefties to damn with faint praise.
    Another dreary Brextremist ready to let the country go to hell.
    A bit harsh on Hammond, there, Mike.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Labour has talent on the backbenches. Tories have talent at the Evening Standard.

    I never, ever thought I would see you describe Osborne as talented...
    Of course he is. One of few Tories capable of taking Labour apart.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

    No - they'd cause damage to the service the public receive, because they're obsessed with producer interest.

  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    edited July 2017
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    That's true, to an extent. But how much of that is really about Europe? Ultimately, the real disaster threatening to sink us is the huge sea of debt - public, private and mixed - that we are not so much swimming in as drowning in. I think I am right in saying we are the most indebted nation in the world, and I'm not even sure that includes our vast pension deficits.

    We cannot grow our way out, because we have too few resources to do so. We cannot cut our way out, because 40% have just voted for a nutter promising to increase our borrowing sixfold just for starters. We cannot tax our way out, because the Commons wouldn't pass the budget. That realistically leaves default which would have forced us out of Europe anyway.

    But can any politician sell a default, with the real hardship that would entail, to the electorate?
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.
    A Conservative poster casting aspersions on the Shadow Cabinet is chucking around stones in an extremely glassy house.
    I'm not a Conservative.
    Well if the cap doesn't fit you have no need to wear it.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    I'm sure you two wonder why many people who voted Remain are often described as "Remoaners"...
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

    No - they'd cause damage to the service the public receive, because they're obsessed with producer interest.

    Meanwhile in the real world both the NHS and public education are at breaking point, entirely dependent on the goodwill and dedication of overworked, undervalued staff to keep them from total collapse.

  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Sack him Theresa! Sack him! Are you a woman or a wuss?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

    No - they'd cause damage to the service the public receive, because they're obsessed with producer interest.

    Meanwhile in the real world both the NHS and public education are at breaking point, entirely dependent on the goodwill and dedication of overworked, undervalued staff to keep them from total collapse.

    NHS in crisis is like some dire daytime drama that won't go away and is on series 28.

    'Beginning to wonder if wolf is being cried? You won't be alone!. Tune in to NHS in crisis at 11.35 today'
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    edited July 2017
    No, he acting absolutely against the national interest.

    Even if you agree with what he is saying, it is an absolute disgrace the way he is going about it. Negotiations with the EU depend on a united front and, specifically, the EU believing that the UK will walk away if the deal is unacceptable. This is the mistake that Cameron made and May was always quite right to make this clear.

    The other critical risk for the UK is the EU playing for time - when we get close to the end they will feel they can extort a deal because we won't risk the 'cliff edge'. The UK should not negotiate past May 2018 unless there is a clear deal coming together because it does not give us time to prepare in case there is no acceptable deal.

    What the UK cannot have is no clear FTA agreed, only a 'transitional road to nowhere' where only the transition is agreed before Brexit. In that case, we will be at the mercy of the EU for years. If there is an agreed deal as part of the Brexit process, a transition period might make sense, but that is something to discuss at that time. Bringing it up now encourages the EU to play for time and not negotiate the FTA seriously.

    Hammond is undermining the entire negotiation strategy, not for the national interest, but to bolster his own position. There can and should be disagreements in the Cabinet, but once a position is agreed everyone has to get on board and leave it to Davis and May. Hammond has no role in the negotiation.

    Cabinet government cannot survive if one of the members wants to run his own strategy. She delivered the ultimatum that Cabinet members had to behave, and Hammond has played up immediately. I now believe that May will have no choice but to dismiss Hammond if she wants to survive.

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    edited July 2017

    ydoethur said:


    A Conservative poster casting aspersions on the Shadow Cabinet is chucking around stones in an extremely glassy house.

    I'm not a Conservative.
    Well if the cap doesn't fit you have no need to wear it.
    Don't really understand that comment. You made a wrong assumption. Given how heavily critical I am of Labour, it's not a wholly unreasonable assumption, but it's wrong nevertheless. You then make some vague and anodyne comment that fails to address your error.

    Just for the record and to clarify, the only party to finish in the top three in terms of voteshare that I have never voted for is UKIP. I have also voted for Plaid Cymru (obviously only when I lived in Wales - they don't stand in Cannock).

    I voted Conservative this time around. No way would I vote for somebody as personally loathsome as Corbyn, especially given he also had such stupid and disastrous policies. But had Yvette Cooper been leading, I would have cheerfully voted Labour as the local candidate - Paul Dadge - was highly impressive.

    And you may notice I considered the weaknesses of the Conservative ministers too, before concluding that in most cases and with the dazzling exception of the highly impressive Ashworth compared to the egregious Hunt they were less serious than those of their Labour counterparts.

    I do hope that helps.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

    No - they'd cause damage to the service the public receive, because they're obsessed with producer interest.

    Meanwhile in the real world both the NHS and public education are at breaking point, entirely dependent on the goodwill and dedication of overworked, undervalued staff to keep them from total collapse.

    Labour might save the NHS, although history suggests this is improbable. They would definitely smash education. One of the more interesting features of my latest book was researching how destructive New Labour's extra spending was of education. But Corbyn and Rayner are proposing to cut spending and increase costs.
  • Options
    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited July 2017
    I expect Hammond to produce another unpopular budget in September, and the wheels will come off his band wagon.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    No, he acting absolutely against the national interest.

    Even if you agree with what he is saying, it is an absolute disgrace the way he is going about it. Negotiations with the EU depend on a united front and, specifically, the EU believing that the UK will walk away if the deal is unacceptable. This is the mistake that Cameron made and May was always quite right to make this clear.

    The other critical risk for the UK is the EU playing for time - when we get close to the end they will feel they can extort a deal because we won't risk the 'cliff edge'. The UK should not negotiate past May 2018 unless there is a clear deal coming together because it does not give us time to prepare in case there is no acceptable deal.

    What the UK cannot have is no clear FTA agreed, only a 'transitional road to nowhere' where only the transition is agreed before Brexit. In that case, we will be at the mercy of the EU for years. If there is an agreed deal as part of the Brexit process, a transition period might make sense, but that is something to discuss at that time. Bringing it up now encourages the EU to play for time and not negotiate the FTA seriously.

    Hammond is undermining the entire negotiation strategy, not for the national interest, but to bolster his own position. There can and should be disagreements in the Cabinet, but once a position is agreed everyone has to get on board and leave it to Davis and May. Hammond has no role in the negotiation.

    Cabinet government cannot survive if one of the members wants to run his own strategy. She delivered the ultimatum that Cabinet members had to behave, and Hammond has played up immediately. I now believe that May will have no choice but to dismiss Hammond if she wants to survive.

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

    No-one believes the UK will walk away. They never have. As for a transition deal, the UK has raised this possibility, not the EU27. All they have said is that they will not agree one if there is no final destination set out.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296
    PAW said:

    I expect Hammond to produce another unpopular budget in September, and his wheels will come off his band wagon.

    Does he have a choice? Our economy is still struggling. Hard measures are still necessary. The question may be, can he get it through Parliament?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    That's true, to an extent. But how much of that is really about Europe? Ultimately, the real disaster threatening to sink us is the huge sea of debt - public, private and mixed - that we are not so much swimming in as drowning in. I think I am right in saying we are the most indebted nation in the world, and I'm not even sure that includes our vast pension deficits.

    We cannot grow our way out, because we have too few resources to do so. We cannot cut our way out, because 40% have just voted for a nutter promising to increase our borrowing sixfold just for starters. We cannot tax our way out, because the Commons wouldn't pass the budget. That realistically leaves default which would have forced us out of Europe anyway.

    But can any politician sell a default, with the real hardship that would entail, to the electorate?
    I tend towards your gloomy view of UK's medium term outlook. For a counter point however, this Robert Tombs article made me think:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/the-myth-of-britains-decline/
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    No, he acting absolutely against the national interest.

    Even if you agree with what he is saying, it is an absolute disgrace the way he is going about it. Negotiations with the EU depend on a united front and, specifically, the EU believing that the UK will walk away if the deal is unacceptable. This is the mistake that Cameron made and May was always quite right to make this clear.

    The other critical risk for the UK is the EU playing for time - when we get close to the end they will feel they can extort a deal because we won't risk the 'cliff edge'. The UK should not negotiate past May 2018 unless there is a clear deal coming together because it does not give us time to prepare in case there is no acceptable deal.

    What the UK cannot have is no clear FTA agreed, only a 'transitional road to nowhere' where only the transition is agreed before Brexit. In that case, we will be at the mercy of the EU for years. If there is an agreed deal as part of the Brexit process, a transition period might make sense, but that is something to discuss at that time. Bringing it up now encourages the EU to play for time and not negotiate the FTA seriously.

    Hammond is undermining the entire negotiation strategy, not for the national interest, but to bolster his own position. There can and should be disagreements in the Cabinet, but once a position is agreed everyone has to get on board and leave it to Davis and May. Hammond has no role in the negotiation.

    Cabinet government cannot survive if one of the members wants to run his own strategy. She delivered the ultimatum that Cabinet members had to behave, and Hammond has played up immediately. I now believe that May will have no choice but to dismiss Hammond if she wants to survive.

    Hammond is the only grown-up in the room, so it's not surprising he is acting in the way that he is. Almost alone among the cabinet he is putting the country first. No wonder the Tory right detests him.

    No-one believes the UK will walk away. They never have.
    Yes, if it came down to a game of chicken in March 2019, the UK will have already lost. The only way such a strategy could work is if we could provoke a complete collapse of the EU well before the clock ran out.

    Before the Brexit vote, some dreamers could legitimately claim that the EU was a paper tiger that would fall apart as soon as one country decided to leave. That domino effect has failed. We now know that whether the UK is in or out, the EU is here to stay, and we have to make our decisions on that basis.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    It's good that one person in the cabinet has a strategy, rather than the improvisation and posturing from Davis.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    We’ve indicated our intention to Leave. We haven’t actually left yet. Reason could still prevail.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,296

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    That's true, to an extent. But how much of that is really about Europe? Ultimately, the real disaster threatening to sink us is the huge sea of debt - public, private and mixed - that we are not so much swimming in as drowning in. I think I am right in saying we are the most indebted nation in the world, and I'm not even sure that includes our vast pension deficits.

    We cannot grow our way out, because we have too few resources to do so. We cannot cut our way out, because 40% have just voted for a nutter promising to increase our borrowing sixfold just for starters. We cannot tax our way out, because the Commons wouldn't pass the budget. That realistically leaves default which would have forced us out of Europe anyway.

    But can any politician sell a default, with the real hardship that would entail, to the electorate?
    I tend towards your gloomy view of UK's medium term outlook. For a counter point however, this Robert Tombs article made me think:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/the-myth-of-britains-decline/
    An interesting article, that reminded me very much of this book:

    https://www.amazon.com/Weary-Titan-Experience-Relative-1895-1905/dp/0691148007

    Not sure I totally agree with it everywhere. However the one really frightening sign of decline which the author seems to have overlooked is that the field for principal of an Oxford college was so thin that Will Hutton was somehow appointed.

    With that, I have to go and do some paperwork. Have a good morning everyone.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    Sack him Theresa! Sack him! Are you a woman or a wuss?

    I think we already know that (NI u-turn, Dementia tax u-turn, 'No deal is better than a bad deal u-turn).

    Next up: 'Brexit means Brexit' u-turn anyone?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,487

    Sack him Theresa! Sack him! Are you a woman or a wuss?

    I think we already know that (NI u-turn, Dementia tax u-turn, 'No deal is better than a bad deal u-turn).

    Next up: 'Brexit means Brexit' u-turn anyone?
    Nah next up is 'No Theresa is better than a bad Theresa'
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    We’ve indicated our intention to Leave. We haven’t actually left yet. Reason could still prevail.
    Another person who hasn't thought through the consequences of ignoring democracy.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    We’ve indicated our intention to Leave. We haven’t actually left yet. Reason could still prevail.
    Another person who hasn't thought through the consequences of ignoring democracy.
    Brexit will be abandoned by democratic means. The only threats to ignore democracy seem to come from the provisional wing of the Brexiteers.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Call me Mr Suspicious but I get the feeling you're not his biggest fan :wink:

    +1

    Isn't it funny how people with extreme views, whether right or left, so often seem assume they are in the majority!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Mr. Quidder, another referendum/General Election would be a politically acceptable way to halt/reverse our departure. Parliament could legally vote against it (if the EU plays ball) but that would create political ructions.

    Stay or leave, divisions are here to stay. The only way I see them easing rather than deepening is if we leave, and things gradually reach a political equilibrium.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    Sack him Theresa! Sack him! Are you a woman or a wuss?

    I think we already know that (NI u-turn, Dementia tax u-turn, 'No deal is better than a bad deal u-turn).

    Next up: 'Brexit means Brexit' u-turn anyone?
    Nah next up is 'No Theresa is better than a bad Theresa'
    :lol: Very good!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    We’ve indicated our intention to Leave. We haven’t actually left yet. Reason could still prevail.
    Another person who hasn't thought through the consequences of ignoring democracy.
    Well, some time ago we made a democratic decision to join. By quite a decent margin. We consistently elected leaders who went about helping to build the EU. Now we’ve made another decison, by quite a small majority this time, to leave. When we really see what’s involved, surely it would be democratic to let us, the electorate, have another look.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908



    Cabinet government cannot survive if one of the members wants to run his own strategy. She delivered the ultimatum that Cabinet members had to behave, and Hammond has played up immediately. I now believe that May will have no choice but to dismiss Hammond if she wants to survive.

    I'll be surprised if May dismisses Hammond, and I think if she does it guarantees a challenge from those worried about what Fox, Davis and Johnson would negotiate us into.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited July 2017
    HMG are an incompetent bunch of fools, thirteen months on they are still arguing amongst themselves jostling for position. They held an unnecessary election thinking they would walk it and as each day passes make us the laughing stock of Europe and beyond. If they don't get a grip soon they are doomed and will take us all down with them.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    It's more a case of the damage having been done it will be very hard to undo.

    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    We’ve indicated our intention to Leave. We haven’t actually left yet. Reason could still prevail.
    Another person who hasn't thought through the consequences of ignoring democracy.
    Well, some time ago we made a democratic decision to join. By quite a decent margin. We consistently elected leaders who went about helping to build the EU. Now we’ve made another decison, by quite a small majority this time, to leave. When we really see what’s involved, surely it would be democratic to let us, the electorate, have another look.
    Yes, once we've left, I expect the campaign to rejoin to start immediately.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Call me Mr Suspicious but I get the feeling you're not his biggest fan :wink:

    +1

    Isn't it funny how people with extreme views, whether right or left, so often seem assume they are in the majority!
    Quite so. Whilst in fact it is the moderate, sensible people in the middle who form the majority. People like, well, me!
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Mr. Quidder, another referendum/General Election would be a politically acceptable way to halt/reverse our departure.

    It would, of course, need the EU to play ball. Given the concerns being expressed about the chances of negotiating a deal, I can't see how we can be expected to negotiate two deals for the electorate to choose between.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Call me Mr Suspicious but I get the feeling you're not his biggest fan :wink:

    +1

    Isn't it funny how people with extreme views, whether right or left, so often seem assume they are in the majority!
    Quite so. Whilst in fact it is the moderate, sensible people in the middle who form the majority. People like, well, me!
    And me! (just a different majority)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.
    That would have been better for the Conservative Party, and worse for Labour?

    The Nation? Not sure. It's fecked anyway.
    And there we have the crux of it. Neither Leave nor Remain offer a positive vision of the future. It's just a debate on the degree to which we are fucked.
    The lemmings have leapt over the cliff. The more positive amongst them are eyeing the better places to land.
    I'm a leaver but I am going to pinch that. Very good.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond is a anti free market, corporatist buffoon who is in a minority of 1 who think he should be PM. His unpopularity and ability is overrated in the betting.

    Call me Mr Suspicious but I get the feeling you're not his biggest fan :wink:

    +1

    Isn't it funny how people with extreme views, whether right or left, so often seem assume they are in the majority!
    Quite so. Whilst in fact it is the moderate, sensible people in the middle who form the majority. People like, well, me!
    And me! (just a different majority)
    No, I'm Spartacus!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    Mr. Quidder, another referendum/General Election would be a politically acceptable way to halt/reverse our departure.

    It would, of course, need the EU to play ball. Given the concerns being expressed about the chances of negotiating a deal, I can't see how we can be expected to negotiate two deals for the electorate to choose between.
    We had a referendum in 2016 without two negotiated deals to chose between. Where has this new imaginary constraint sprung from?
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Haven't posted for a while as have been on paternity leave - we've had a little girl who loves sleeping during the afternoon and not very much at night. Not unlike some posters here...

    On topic, it strikes me that all non-Tories would prefer to see Hammond in charge and see him as the grown-up, but that Tories are getting fed up with him. A pity given who gets to vote in Tory leadership contests. For me it's striking how he seems to be making real efforts to govern in the national interest, unite the country and address the crippling divisions that Brexit has revealed. Compared to the Tories who seem ever more a faction in their interest it's no surprise he's getting so much grief. But perhaps that's my own prejudices hoping that he speaks for a wider group than he may do.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,643
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner over Greening - no. She is a deeply unpleasant and very stupid woman who takes the unedifying abuse about her accent to hide the vacuity of what she is actually saying.

    Greening is weak and ineffectual. Rayner is a more malicious and less intelligent version of Gove. Her policies would, as I have pointed out many times, have pushed the entire state education system from crisis to total collapse in twelve months.

    Thornberry still insists she was a Colonel in the British Army. She knows this is not true and yet she persists with it. She even knows it's a crime to say it, yet she doesn't care. Her over Boris - not sure I'd go that far. Macdonald I know nothing about, Starmer I intensely distrust for other reasons which we needn't go into here as I can't prove them.

    Ashworth I entirely agree with.

    But to suggest Corbyn's shadow cabinet is stronger than or even equal to May's cabinet is to go much too far. A case could be made that there should be a stronger shadow cabinet - the likes of Cooper, Benn, Leslie, even Creagh (never thought I'd see myself write that) languishing on the back benches could be a far more formidable opposition and might even be in government now. But this shower - forget it.
    I agree with pretty well all that (I don't know what your reasons are regarding Starmer, but my instinctive reaction to him is similar), and the comment about Rayner is absolutely spot on.
    We have not been lucky (to put it mildly) in our Education Secretaries for quite some time now.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Mr. tpfkar, hope all is going well with Miss tpfkar :)
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,643

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:
    Of course, the extreme Brexiteers like Fraser hate him. He is putting his country first. It's nice to have one member of the cabinet doing this.

    Could be worse. Corbyn could somehow have squeaked a win and we would have Abbott, Thornberry and Macdonnell in charge, carefully putting the country last.

    Extraordinarily, pound for pound the Labour front bench is about on the same level as the Tory cabinet. That's how bad this Tory cabinet is.

    I would certainly take Thornberry over Boris, Starmer over Davis, Ashworth over Hunt and Rayner over Greening, McDonald over Grayling, and can't see much between most of the rest. Though Hammond is certainly more reassuring than McDonnell.

    Rayner and Ashworth? Good grief man. You've started drinking the Corbyn kool-aid...

    Greening and Hunt have been cabinet ministers for years; the latter has survived (more than?) half of his producer interests hating his guts. What on earth have Ashworth and Rayner done apart from moan?

    They haven't caused the damage Hunt and Greening have.

    They have not yet had the opportunity. I have little doubt that Rayner would set a new bar if ever in office.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,643
    Mortimer said:

    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    Barnesian said:

    nunuone said:

    tlg86 said:
    Maybe there is still room for a socially conservative party today but it's a room that's getting smaller every year.

    Liberal values are continuing their long, slow but inexorable rise to ascendancy.

    Thankfully!
    While on some issues you are right, the trend is not always in that direction. We saw the licentuousness of the Restoration and Georgians morph into the purtanical Victorians for example.
    .
    I think there is ever widening empathy and tolerance that has embraced slaves, then females, then homosexuals, then foreigners, then intelligent animals such as apes and dolphins and will slowly widen to cover the animal kingdom so that we all become vegetarian.

    I think it is driven by mass communication and the arts (books, films and TV) that portray "others" in a sympathetic light or from their point of view. This, combined with rising standards of living and education so that people don't feel threatened by "others", is what is driving liberal values. But those that feel threatened or lack empathy remain illiberal.
    So-called liberals would do well to try and have some understanding of and empathy with those who feel threatened - perhaps by understanding why they feel threatened - rather than baldly asserting that those who are - in liberals' eyes - illiberal must therefore lack empathy.

    Liberals do their cause no good at all with this sort of dismissive attitude to those who have a different view.

    Liberals don't generally feel threatened by "others" because those "others" don't often impinge on their lives in a negative way. When and if that starts happening let's see what their views are then.
    Absolutely Ms Cyclefree.

    An Aussie friend of mine who lives here posted on fb this excellent piece about progressives not understanding the working classes in Aus; applies to UK too.

    I think it is bang on. I'm lucky enough to have one parent from the old working class and one from the public school educated middle classes. Family parties are quite starkly different!

    https://meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defence-of-the-bad-white-working-class/
    It's a fair argument, but in the context of a discussion about homophobia, it seems rather beside the point.
This discussion has been closed.