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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why there’ll always be a reason why the time’s not ripe to dep

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why there’ll always be a reason why the time’s not ripe to deposed Theresa

Like many observers, I have the clear impression that most Conservative MPs feel that a change of leadership is needed before the next election. As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win, and the potential leaders would rather have May than a possibly successful alternative blocking their own chance at the top. At any moment, there could be a deal between two of the factions sufficient to trigger a leadership challenge – all the main contenders could rustle up 50 letters to achieve that if they worked at it.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Thanks Nick.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    It would only take a slight change in the mood and for one of the contenders to get a rush of blood to the head and the calculation would look very different. She's like a high-wire act with unpredictable counterweights on either side of her. It could all go wrong without warning.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    I think the 1922 and Gavin Williamson will be crucial in this.

    I suspect the wing of the Tory party that tumescent over Brexit might have 48 names if we have a transitional deal.

    The 22 and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury might have to knee cap a few people.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    It would only take a slight change in the mood and for one of the contenders to get a rush of blood to the head and the calculation would look very different. She's like a high-wire act with unpredictable counterweights on either side of her. It could all go wrong without warning.

    Good description of the EU; presumably its feminine gender because of French?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    I agree with Nick.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Nick is right about the difficulty of timing - after all, he should know, having been an MP under Brown. However, in this case there is a natural time: an announcement by Theresa May in 2019. By then she'll have delivered Brexit (as Nick says, it'll probably be some sort of inconclusive fudge of a half-finished Brexit, but it can be spun as delivering it, since we will formally no longer be a member of the EU). She'll be able with dignity to say that she's done her duty and implemented the referendum result, and that now is the time to hand over the reins to someone else, blah blah. Maybe a hint of a health/age factor as well.

    The big advantage of her making such an announcement in 2019 is that she can stay on as caretaker leader whilst a full leadership contest takes place, which wouldn't be practical before we leave the EU, and that it gives enough time for the new leader to establish a new direction ready for a GE. That is a window of opportunity which isn't very long: March 2019 for around a year.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171

    I think the 1922 and Gavin Williamson will be crucial in this.

    I suspect the wing of the Tory party that tumescent over Brexit might have 48 names if we have a transitional deal.

    The 22 and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury might have to knee cap a few people.

    The verb is tumesce (c.f. coalesce).
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017
    geoffw said:

    I think the 1922 and Gavin Williamson will be crucial in this.

    I suspect the wing of the Tory party that tumescent over Brexit might have 48 names if we have a transitional deal.

    The 22 and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury might have to knee cap a few people.

    The verb is tumesce (c.f. coalesce).
    TSE was showing off his French.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    edited July 2017
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    Or they might have a majority of 50, who knows?

    I think May is a terrible option for the party and for the country. She has shown consistently bad judgment, pettiness, indecisiveness followed by impulsivity, an inability to either form or make use of her team and that she is one of the worst campaigners of modern times. I fear that the Tories will pay a terrible price for allowing her to remain (no doubt Nick's interest in keeping her there is entirely disinterested) but given Brexit we simply cannot have a government that is even more unstable than the one she has created.

    So a very bad option but not necessarily the worst one. Faint praise indeed.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171

    geoffw said:

    I think the 1922 and Gavin Williamson will be crucial in this.

    I suspect the wing of the Tory party that tumescent over Brexit might have 48 names if we have a transitional deal.

    The 22 and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury might have to knee cap a few people.

    The verb is tumesce (c.f. coalesce).
    TSE was showing off his French.
    Let's hope he doesn't use it for letters.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    geoffw said:

    I think the 1922 and Gavin Williamson will be crucial in this.

    I suspect the wing of the Tory party that tumescent over Brexit might have 48 names if we have a transitional deal.

    The 22 and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury might have to knee cap a few people.

    The verb is tumesce (c.f. coalesce).
    There's a 'get' missing before tumescent

    I was showing off my French
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm honestly not bitter at all. I'm very fond of her policies.

    As are many voters, incidentally. Her popularity is clear - more votes (in pure vote terms or vote share) than any Tory leader for a long time. What I missed was how much she also motivated the opposition. Didn't expect that.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    Or they might have a majority of 50, who knows?

    I think May is a terrible option for the party and for the country. She has shown consistently bad judgment, pettiness, indecisiveness followed by impulsivity, an inability to either form or make use of her team and that she is one of the worst campaigners of modern times.
    Hard to disagree.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm honestly not bitter at all. I'm very fond of her policies.

    As are many voters, incidentally. Her popularity is clear - more votes (in pure vote terms or vote share) than any Tory leader for a long time. What I missed was how much she also motivated the opposition. Didn't expect that.
    I did warn you that banging on about things like grammar schools would damage the Tories.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Nick is right about the difficulty of timing - after all, he should know, having been an MP under Brown. However, in this case there is a natural time: an announcement by Theresa May in 2019. By then she'll have delivered Brexit (as Nick says, it'll probably be some sort of inconclusive fudge of a half-finished Brexit, but it can be spun as delivering it, since we will formally no longer be a member of the EU). She'll be able with dignity to say that she's done her duty and implemented the referendum result, and that now is the time to hand over the reins to someone else, blah blah. Maybe a hint of a health/age factor as well.

    The big advantage of her making such an announcement in 2019 is that she can stay on as caretaker leader whilst a full leadership contest takes place, which wouldn't be practical before we leave the EU, and that it gives enough time for the new leader to establish a new direction ready for a GE. That is a window of opportunity which isn't very long: March 2019 for around a year.

    I agree - 2019 feels like the logical time.
    If it goes really well she might fancy her chances of staying on...

    The other point is cabinet positions in the meantime will be key. Rudd and Johnson won't want potential challengers to be elevated... So I suspect we may see little on the reshuffle front.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    I think what is fuelling JRMania is the fact that the more obvious contenders are so utterly uninspiring. Davis, Fox, Hammond? Non, non, non. Johnson has a little of his appeal left, but not much, and it is precisely his "attractive oddball" ground that JRM is moving in on. I am not sure how seriously to take JRMania, but the man himself is clearly not fundamentally a buffoon like Boris. With a bit more moggmentum behind him he may look like a credible threat by Conference time, at least credible enough to deter potential knife wielders.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017
    rkrkrk said:


    I agree - 2019 feels like the logical time.
    If it goes really well she might fancy her chances of staying on...

    The other point is cabinet positions in the meantime will be key. Rudd and Johnson won't want potential challengers to be elevated... So I suspect we may see little on the reshuffle front.

    She might fancy her chances of staying on (although the 2017 GE must have been an excruciatingly crushing experience for her), but I'm pretty sure that she'll be left in no doubt that that is not an option. Her choice will be to retire with dignity, or face a public challenge. She might not even get the first option, although it's in everyone's interest to make the transition as amicable as possible.

    Your second point is an important one, it may limit the pool of potential successors.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    I can't see how the conservatives can win the next election if immigration isn't under control and when the country knows it is a deliberate policy not to have it controlled. Who is benefiting by it? They are asking for votes from their middle class friends while adopting policies to hurt the poor. I expect UKIP to recover and for most people Corbyn is not so bad. Taxes on the middle class looks good to me.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    PAW said:

    Taxes on the middle class looks good to me.

    But not to me.

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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,956

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm really not convinced the Tories would have won under Osborne campaigning on the economy.

    Labour were in part successful for the same reasons why Osborne's warnings of economic catastrophe if we voted to leave the EU failed to secure a majority for remain.

    I think in both EUref2016 and GE2017 a significant section of the population said "f**k it, the economy isn't working for me, I have seen my living standards decline significantly and I will vote for change if change is on the menu, whatever that may be." Enough people simply felt they had nothing left to lose.

    The type of people who were going to vote for Corbyn were never going to vote for Osborne. If anything, their "it's austerity for you, tax cuts for the rich" may have worked even better.

    May ran a crap campaign, but the one thing she had going for her was her profile was so low she was hardly tainted at all by the Cameron/Osborne years, hence why she enjoyed a honeymoon pre GE2017. It was only her crap campaign/crap manifesto that saw her stock plummet.

    Though you could argue Osborne would have been starting from such a low position in the polls he never would have called an election in the first place...
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.

    That begs the question why the backbenchers haven't done their party the signal service of putting the incumbent out of her misery. The answer is presumably that she defines faute de mieux. Once something potentially mieux comes along, Theresa May will be re-enacting the start of the Thirty Years War (probably not in costume or with a dung heap as a prop).
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    On the substance of the article, I tend to agree: May is more likely to last through to 2020 than is currently being supposed. That said, the nature of the Tory rules is such that a leader is only ever a few hours from being challenged. A serious crisis, a bad PR blunder, a DUP strop, or some other black swan that we can't predict in detail but which is always a possible if unwelcome visitor; all could generate the letters to trigger a contest.

    And we shouldn't forget that the MPs never know how many letters are in - whether their letter could be the one to trigger a contest. Unless otherwise specified, these letters remain on the books. While the Party would undoubtedly identify better and worse times of the year to hold a leadership contest, if the numbers are close to threshold, it might only take one or two MPs angered by an answer at PMQs to submit letters when their blood's up for a VoNC to be triggered at what might be a most inopportune moment.

    Nick rightly identifies the EU as a potentially critical trigger issue. He's right. In fact, the failure / fudge question might well be the one. With Cameron having already come back with something inadequate and having lost a vote and his leadership off the back of it, MPs might well refuse to back another deal that delivered very little.

    Brexit means Brexit. She'll be held to that.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017

    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.

    Whilst you are right in formal terms, I don't think that's the whole story in political reality. Letters to the 22 chair don't write themselves, and ordinary backbench MPs won't want to act alone. So it will be groups of MPs coordinated by a specific challenger or challengers who are likely to kick off any move against May.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    kyf_100 said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm really not convinced the Tories would have won under Osborne campaigning on the economy.

    Labour were in part successful for the same reasons why Osborne's warnings of economic catastrophe if we voted to leave the EU failed to secure a majority for remain.

    I think in both EUref2016 and GE2017 a significant section of the population said "f**k it, the economy isn't working for me, I have seen my living standards decline significantly and I will vote for change if change is on the menu, whatever that may be." Enough people simply felt they had nothing left to lose.

    The type of people who were going to vote for Corbyn were never going to vote for Osborne. If anything, their "it's austerity for you, tax cuts for the rich" may have worked even better.

    May ran a crap campaign, but the one thing she had going for her was her profile was so low she was hardly tainted at all by the Cameron/Osborne years, hence why she enjoyed a honeymoon pre GE2017. It was only her crap campaign/crap manifesto that saw her stock plummet.

    Though you could argue Osborne would have been starting from such a low position in the polls he never would have called an election in the first place...
    The rich (however you define them) have not had their taxes cut in recent years; rather the reverse. But, that is not the perception.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.

    That begs the question why the backbenchers haven't done their party the signal service of putting the incumbent out of her misery. The answer is presumably that she defines faute de mieux. Once something potentially mieux comes along, Theresa May will be re-enacting the start of the Thirty Years War (probably not in costume or with a dung heap as a prop).
    No windows, thank you.

    My guess would be that MPs didn't do it in the aftermath of the election in part because it would have looked undemocratic to change so soon after a win (and it might have been a bad win but ending in No 10 is still a win), and partly because although the processes of ditching and electing are procedurally separate, they remain politically tied: there's no point dumping the leader unless the replacement is going to be sufficiently better to justify the risk and the upheaval. That criterion is not yet met: too few alternatives (any?) are obviously better and there are enough who would probably be worse but who might appeal to the membership to create a substantial downside risk to opening the can of worms.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,816
    If the next couple of rounds of EU talks get bogged down due to lack of UK direction, and HMG is widely criticised at home and abroad around the time of the EU October summit for incompetence, which MPs get upset at that, and do they align / need to be aligned with particular pretenders?
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,956
    Sean_F said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm really not convinced the Tories would have won under Osborne campaigning on the economy.

    Labour were in part successful for the same reasons why Osborne's warnings of economic catastrophe if we voted to leave the EU failed to secure a majority for remain.

    I think in both EUref2016 and GE2017 a significant section of the population said "f**k it, the economy isn't working for me, I have seen my living standards decline significantly and I will vote for change if change is on the menu, whatever that may be." Enough people simply felt they had nothing left to lose.

    The type of people who were going to vote for Corbyn were never going to vote for Osborne. If anything, their "it's austerity for you, tax cuts for the rich" may have worked even better.

    May ran a crap campaign, but the one thing she had going for her was her profile was so low she was hardly tainted at all by the Cameron/Osborne years, hence why she enjoyed a honeymoon pre GE2017. It was only her crap campaign/crap manifesto that saw her stock plummet.

    Though you could argue Osborne would have been starting from such a low position in the polls he never would have called an election in the first place...
    The rich (however you define them) have not had their taxes cut in recent years; rather the reverse. But, that is not the perception.
    Indeed, and perception is everything. I believe the Gini coefficient has actually fallen since 2008.

    The difference is, of course, the other ways in which society has polarised - between those on the property ladder and those who aren't, those in steady, well paying jobs and those with little to no security on zero hours contracts, the ever growing regional imbalance between London and, well, just about everywhere else, and so on.

    The prevailing narrative is very much one of the people who did well out of the last 7 years and the people who felt left behind for whatever reason. And Osborne was the very last man in the Tory party who was going to reach them. May, for all her obvious failings, did at least appear to try.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,307
    The Tories will stick with Theresa. The spin will be that she was a fine, upstanding woman who was laid low by the greedy and gullible rabble who fell for Corbyn's oily charm. The next election will be offered as a redemption - a second chance to vote for Theresa and do what anyone with any wit would have done first time round.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2017
    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    A fine header. I totally agree.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    Jonathan said:

    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.

    She should take a break, come back refreshed, sack a couple of people and get a grip.
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    NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.

    David Davis will be 70 in 2018 and the specific danger to May from him is his time is running out. Younger cardinals from the next generation and even younger older cardinals like Boris or Hammond can afford to bide their time. Yet May v Davis would look ridiculous and ludicrous at home and especially abroad right now so I suspect a non EU related black swan event would be needed.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    On This Week, Portillo's always pretty fixed in his belief that May will go soon. But it's a Party vs. Brexit clash. From the point of view of Brexit, it it seems self-evident that a new, good leader is needed to get us out of the morass. From the point of view of the party, Brexit is a distraction. The Tories aren't the Brexit Party, and the sooner this chapter is behind the party the better. No-one else in the party really wants to be the Brexit leader, and probably be tainted for the following election. So the party is "happy" for May to be the one to suffer, and bring a new leader in in 2021 in time to rebuild for the 2022 election.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.

    Brown should never have been coroneted and he didn't go. If you think TMay was bad, Brown was about as bad as you could get.. bar Corbyn
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344

    Nick is right about the difficulty of timing - after all, he should know, having been an MP under Brown. However, in this case there is a natural time: an announcement by Theresa May in 2019. By then she'll have delivered Brexit (as Nick says, it'll probably be some sort of inconclusive fudge of a half-finished Brexit, but it can be spun as delivering it, since we will formally no longer be a member of the EU). She'll be able with dignity to say that she's done her duty and implemented the referendum result, and that now is the time to hand over the reins to someone else, blah blah. Maybe a hint of a health/age factor as well.

    The big advantage of her making such an announcement in 2019 is that she can stay on as caretaker leader whilst a full leadership contest takes place, which wouldn't be practical before we leave the EU, and that it gives enough time for the new leader to establish a new direction ready for a GE. That is a window of opportunity which isn't very long: March 2019 for around a year.

    But if we get a fudged Brexit which she can present as a success, why should she want to go? Being PM is pretty cool for any politician. And if the challenge was on the basis of "This is a crap deal", what exactly does the challenger, a member of the party that got it through, identify as their USP?

    I take the point that the system doesn't really need a challenger. But it probably does in practice, as others have said - not many MPs will do it on autopilot.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Does there have to be a leader of the Conservative Party in the same way that there has to be a PM?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    Jonathan said:

    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.

    Brown should never have been coroneted and he didn't go. If you think TMay was bad, Brown was about as bad as you could get.. bar Corbyn
    Can we have some sort of site donation jar system implemented for those using 'coronated'.

    There is a perfectly good past tense of the verb 'to crown'.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    "Spiegel is reporting that the big three German car companies – Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW - have been holding secret 'working groups' since the 1990s, where they would discuss production costs, suppliers, strategy and – importantly – emissions purification. The meetings were initially reported to regulators by Volkswagen in a filing with German competition authorities. The magazine described the meetings as 'one of the biggest cartel cases in German economic history.'"

    Come on, start our own diesel emissions tests on imports. Did I hear that diesels are killing 6,000 a year in this country?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    tlg86 said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Does there have to be a leader of the Conservative Party in the same way that there has to be a PM?
    Theoretically I can see how someone could be a Conservative, next Prime Minister and not next leader of the Conservative party. But in the real world, it's rather more likely that someone could be a Conservative, next leader of the Conservative party and not next Prime Minister. That happens if Jeremy Corbyn is next Prime Minister.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited July 2017
    OT. 'Dunkirk' brilliant in every way. Visually musically and technically a masterpiece. Well acted too

    A perfect parable for Brexit. The British leave Europe in the most shambolic way imaginable. Nolan's a 'Remainer'

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Does there have to be a leader of the Conservative Party in the same way that there has to be a PM?
    Theoretically I can see how someone could be a Conservative, next Prime Minister and not next leader of the Conservative party. But in the real world, it's rather more likely that someone could be a Conservative, next leader of the Conservative party and not next Prime Minister. That happens if Jeremy Corbyn is next Prime Minister.
    I agree, but I just wondered what would happen if May said "right, f*** you, I'm off right now." Could another Tory take over while the leadership contest is organised? Or would it have to be someone who wasn't going to be in the contest? Or would Jezza have to become PM in such a scenario?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Aren't they just not very liquid markets? I am looking at Next Con Leader and PM after May, couldn't find Next PM. Someone wants to back Davis at 5.5 next PM and he is 5.2 6.6 next Con?
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.

    Brown should never have been coroneted and he didn't go. If you think TMay was bad, Brown was about as bad as you could get.. bar Corbyn
    Can we have some sort of site donation jar system implemented for those using 'coronated'.

    There is a perfectly good past tense of the verb 'to crown'.
    I like the subtlety. Blair was crowned. Brown was coronated.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Aren't they just not very liquid markets? I am looking at Next Con Leader and PM after May, couldn't find Next PM. Someone wants to back Davis at 5.5 next PM and he is 5.2 6.6 next Con?
    Sorry, yes, "PM after May". You're right, they're not very liquid. But over the last few days there have been quite a few moments when you could back David Davis for next Prime Minister at a shorter price than you could lay him for next leader of the Conservative party. It seems odd that such a discrepancy should keep recurring, even in illiquid markets.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Sean_F said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm really not convinced the Tories would have won under Osborne campaigning on the economy.

    Labour were in part successful for the same reasons why Osborne's warnings of economic catastrophe if we voted to leave the EU failed to secure a majority for remain.

    I think in both EUref2016 and GE2017 a significant section of the population said "f**k it, the economy isn't working for me, I have seen my living standards decline significantly and I will vote for change if change is on the menu, whatever that may be." Enough people simply felt they had nothing left to lose.

    The type of people who were going to vote for Corbyn were never going to vote for Osborne. If anything, their "it's austerity for you, tax cuts for the rich" may have worked even better.

    May ran a crap campaign, but the one thing she had going for her was her profile was so low she was hardly tainted at all by the Cameron/Osborne years, hence why she enjoyed a honeymoon pre GE2017. It was only her crap campaign/crap manifesto that saw her stock plummet.

    Though you could argue Osborne would have been starting from such a low position in the polls he never would have called an election in the first place...
    The rich (however you define them) have not had their taxes cut in recent years; rather the reverse. But, that is not the perception.

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    isam said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Aren't they just not very liquid markets? I am looking at Next Con Leader and PM after May, couldn't find Next PM. Someone wants to back Davis at 5.5 next PM and he is 5.2 6.6 next Con?
    Sorry, yes, "PM after May". You're right, they're not very liquid. But over the last few days there have been quite a few moments when you could back David Davis for next Prime Minister at a shorter price than you could lay him for next leader of the Conservative party. It seems odd that such a discrepancy should keep recurring, even in illiquid markets.
    Keep schtum and lay the PM/back the Con leader!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    I struggled to make it to the end of that. Is he the most boring man on the planet?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good afternoon, my fellow Gallifreyans.

    I think May might go of her own accord after we leave the EU, during the (potential) transition period.

    If she stays, and then loses to Corbyn, she'd feel absolutely terrible. 'Winning' an election but losing seats having had persistent double digit leads is one thing. Losing an election and letting in a far left, unilateralist friend of Hamas is quite another.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Aren't they just not very liquid markets? I am looking at Next Con Leader and PM after May, couldn't find Next PM. Someone wants to back Davis at 5.5 next PM and he is 5.2 6.6 next Con?
    Sorry, yes, "PM after May". You're right, they're not very liquid. But over the last few days there have been quite a few moments when you could back David Davis for next Prime Minister at a shorter price than you could lay him for next leader of the Conservative party. It seems odd that such a discrepancy should keep recurring, even in illiquid markets.
    Keep schtum and lay the PM/back the Con leader!
    Of course that's what I did, up to the level that I wish to commit on two illiquid and long term markets.

    And now I'm advertising it in the hope that I can equally profitably do the reverse sooner rather than later.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,711
    rcs1000 said:

    I struggled to make it to the end of that. Is he the most boring man on the planet?
    It's a sort of reverse compliment that he isn't as good at "not answering questions" as Davis.....especially since the answer is "none"....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    rcs1000 said:

    I struggled to make it to the end of that. Is he the most boring man on the planet?
    He's only a translator. Give him a break.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2017
    kyf_100 said:


    Indeed, and perception is everything. I believe the Gini coefficient has actually fallen since 2008.

    It's basically been stable since 1990 - any changes since are pretty marginal (by deliberate design of the governments in office):

    Graph: https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/styles/620/public/How has inequality changed to 2015-16 IFS.jpg?itok=Ox3AKeqc
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Aren't they just not very liquid markets? I am looking at Next Con Leader and PM after May, couldn't find Next PM. Someone wants to back Davis at 5.5 next PM and he is 5.2 6.6 next Con?
    Sorry, yes, "PM after May". You're right, they're not very liquid. But over the last few days there have been quite a few moments when you could back David Davis for next Prime Minister at a shorter price than you could lay him for next leader of the Conservative party. It seems odd that such a discrepancy should keep recurring, even in illiquid markets.
    Keep schtum and lay the PM/back the Con leader!
    Of course that's what I did, up to the level that I wish to commit on two illiquid and long term markets.

    And now I'm advertising it in the hope that I can equally profitably do the reverse sooner rather than later.
    It would prob be worth laying PM/back Con Leader even if you were laying PM at a tick or two higher wouldn't it? So being able to arb the two with a chance of copping both is totes amazeballs!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    PAW said:

    "Spiegel is reporting that the big three German car companies – Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW - have been holding secret 'working groups' since the 1990s, where they would discuss production costs, suppliers, strategy and – importantly – emissions purification. The meetings were initially reported to regulators by Volkswagen in a filing with German competition authorities. The magazine described the meetings as 'one of the biggest cartel cases in German economic history.'"

    Come on, start our own diesel emissions tests on imports. Did I hear that diesels are killing 6,000 a year in this country?

    Link to German car cartel

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-emissions-cartel-idUSKBN1A61G9
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    rcs1000 said:

    I struggled to make it to the end of that. Is he the most boring man on the planet?
    He's only a translator. Give him a break.
    Donnez l'homme une pause!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    PAW said:

    Come on, start our own diesel emissions tests on imports. Did I hear that diesels are killing 6,000 a year in this country?

    Perhaps we should preempt the car lobby over Brexit and ban the production of non-electric cars in the UK from March 2019.
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    stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    I doubt whether Labour will be 20 points ahead in the polls -Corbyn remains the biggest obstacle to that. But the time will be ripe when someone outside the aging old guard emerges from the backbenches. All of the current frontrunners are losers.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    Income is not the same as wealth.

    Those with a lot of assets have done well since 2008 because bank interest rates have been kept low by central banks and bond yields have been kept low by Quantitative Easing.

    Low interest rate and low bond yields equals high asset prices.

    Beware when interest rtaes and yields start to rise. However, this might still be some way off and they may well not rise back to previous normal levels.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    edited July 2017

    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    Income is not the same as wealth.

    Those with a lot of assets have done well since 2008 because bank interest rates have been kept low by central banks and bond yields have been kept low by Quantitative Easing.

    Low interest rate and low bond yields equals high asset prices.

    Beware when interest rtaes and yields start to rise. However, this might still be some way off and they may well not rise back to previous normal levels.
    However, a lot of wealth is in the form of pensions, which may have done badly due to low interest rates, and adverse tax changes.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    kyf_100 said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Nick.

    Me too. Mrs May is the least worst option.

    Lets just all be grateful we didn't get lumbered with George. Tories would be 20 points behind at the moment with him at the top, I imagine....
    You should stop being so bitter about being so wrong about the awesomeness of Mrs May.

    Under George, the Tories would have campaigned on the economy and wiped the floor with Corbyn.

    Mrs May shamefully didn't fight on the economy all because she wanted to sack Hammond.
    I'm really not convinced the Tories would have won under Osborne campaigning on the economy.

    Labour were in part successful for the same reasons why Osborne's warnings of economic catastrophe if we voted to leave the EU failed to secure a majority for remain.

    I think in both EUref2016 and GE2017 a significant section of the population said "f**k it, the economy isn't working for me, I have seen my living standards decline significantly and I will vote for change if change is on the menu, whatever that may be." Enough people simply felt they had nothing left to lose.

    The type of people who were going to vote for Corbyn were never going to vote for Osborne. If anything, their "it's austerity for you, tax cuts for the rich" may have worked even better.

    May ran a crap campaign, but the one thing she had going for her was her profile was so low she was hardly tainted at all by the Cameron/Osborne years, hence why she enjoyed a honeymoon pre GE2017. It was only her crap campaign/crap manifesto that saw her stock plummet.

    Though you could argue Osborne would have been starting from such a low position in the polls he never would have called an election in the first place...

    Whilst few people read the Conservative or Labour manifestos, the public still judged the Conservative one poor and the Labour one good.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Sean_F said:


    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.

    I can't find the source atm, but do recall the long-term UK figures: at the start of the 20th century the top1% had >70% of all wealth, and that fell in almost a perfect straight line until it hit 15% in 1985, and has since risen back a bit to 20%.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    I never invest in something that I don't understand. What are catastrophe Bonds? Why would either backing or shorting them be a sensible use of money?
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2017

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    From what I can tell, the logic behind buying CAT bonds is the opposite to that. Large amounts of capital prepared to absorb losses - for the promise of short term yield - disregarding reversion to the mean. And over the last few years, the yields appear to have been beaten down too low.

    I want to pay the people picking up pennies and bet on the steamroller - if the odds are wrong enough.

    If that's possible. I don't think it is though. At least not via my isa.

    Oh well.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    I never invest in something that I don't understand. What are catastrophe Bonds? Why would either backing or shorting them be a sensible use of money?
    If I had money to invest, I'd stick to a selection of blue chip shares.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Dr. Foxinsox, not 'investing' in stuff I don't get is one of the reasons I almost never bet on horses now.

    I only won on the Grand National because my dad wanted me to place a bet for him and I would've been bloody annoyed if he'd made money through my account and I hadn't, so I slipped on a fiver :p
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.
    The problem is that measuring wealth is really, really hard.

    Take the Sunday Times Rich List. Robert Maxwell was pretty near the top of the list. But it actually turned out that he had rather less than nothing. Quite a lot of people who appear very rich are hugely leveraged to small changes in asset prices: if you own £1.1billion in property, but owe the bank £1bn, then you're worth £100m. Until property prices fall 10%, and then you're worth nothing.

    Lots of people's wealth is ephemeral for a different reason. If you own 10% of an internet startup valued at $500m, then you're very rich. Except that you aren't actually allowed to sell any of the shares, and the terms at which you took money from venture capitalists are such that they get first money out. If you sell the business for $400m, you might actually end up with nothing.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.
    Thomas Picketty says in uk in 2010, the top decile owned 70% of wealth. top 1% had about 30%.

    His book, "Capital" is packed full of tables and figures on this kind of thing. Don't know whether any of it is on Internet and his data tends to be a few years old.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    Sean_F said:

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    I never invest in something that I don't understand. What are catastrophe Bonds? Why would either backing or shorting them be a sensible use of money?
    If I had money to invest, I'd stick to a selection of blue chip shares.
    While this is not investment advice, it is probably more sensible to own either index funds or ETFs. Some shares are blue chip until they're not.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    I never invest in something that I don't understand. What are catastrophe Bonds? Why would either backing or shorting them be a sensible use of money?
    If I had money to invest, I'd stick to a selection of blue chip shares.
    I have a fair amount in equities, and manage these myself. I don't stick to blue chip though, I have some in small caps etc. I do like to understand how the company makes money though. If it is by financial or technology that I cannot understand then I steer clear.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. 1000, I worked out recently that if someone paid me £10 a year for F1 tips, and placed the same stake on all my tips, then (not counting stakes but just the annual fee) that would equate to a return on investment over the period 2009 to 2016 of over 4,000%.

    :p
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Notwithstanding Nick's well thought out arguments, November could be the month. Then or never. In fact, that could include the next general election.

    I cannot believe she would voluntarily give up. Why would she ? After going through fire. She has actually gone through her most difficult period. She is almost unique [ apart from Heath ], who called an election which she did not have to [ they had an adequate majority ] and then lost her majority. She has survived that, it seems.

    If she delivers Brexit, I don't think the Tory party will say it was a bad Brexit. So she will get the credit for delivering it from a Tory point of view.

    If she loses the next GE, she will be out, like anyone else.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    edited July 2017

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.
    Thomas Picketty says in uk in 2010, the top decile owned 70% of wealth. top 1% had about 30%.

    His book, "Capital" is packed full of tables and figures on this kind of thing. Don't know whether any of it is on Internet and his data tends to be a few years old.
    I am not a fan of the Picketty book. He assumes that returns remain constant across the curve, so that the first dollar of capital invested has the same returns as the millionth and the trillionth. If you believe there is no diminution of returns at the margin then can I suggest you don't go into a career in finance.

    More seriously, the ONS believes that the top 1% own 13% of the wealth in the UK. I think there is a tendency to assiduously count assets and not count liabilities. Piketty has probably correctly counted the assets of the wealthy without measuring their liabilities.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    F1: reports Haas will retain its driver lineup for next year.

    Hope they can fix their brake problems.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.

    I am not talking annual income, I am talking wealth. Take home ownership - the number of home owners has fallen, the number of private renters has grown. House prices and rents have both gone up substantially over the last 10 years. So if you do own your own home - let alone a property portfolio - you have done very well.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Theresa May is the Tory leader, even though most MPs might still wish she wasn’t (and if that reminds you of any other parties, life is full of ironies). Get used to it.

    Punchy stuff.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,726
    edited July 2017
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    May should be gone already.

    People will look back on this time and shudder. A directionless govt with a PM without authority trying to negotiate the biggest UK Foreign policy challenge for 70 years.

    What a difference a real leader would make.

    Brown should never have been coroneted and he didn't go. If you think TMay was bad, Brown was about as bad as you could get.. bar Corbyn
    Can we have some sort of site donation jar system implemented for those using 'coronated'.

    There is a perfectly good past tense of the verb 'to crown'.
    Different verbs, to crown and to coronate. Some people might think the second verb is unnecessary.
    PS it's possible the two verbs are semantically different with coronate implying a stress on the process rather than the transformation.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sort of on topic, for some reason David Davis is shorter for "next Prime Minister" than for "next leader of the Conservative party" on Betfair. I can't figure that out at all.

    Does there have to be a leader of the Conservative Party in the same way that there has to be a PM?
    Theoretically I can see how someone could be a Conservative, next Prime Minister and not next leader of the Conservative party. But in the real world, it's rather more likely that someone could be a Conservative, next leader of the Conservative party and not next Prime Minister. That happens if Jeremy Corbyn is next Prime Minister.
    I agree, but I just wondered what would happen if May said "right, f*** you, I'm off right now." Could another Tory take over while the leadership contest is organised? Or would it have to be someone who wasn't going to be in the contest? Or would Jezza have to become PM in such a scenario?
    No, Jezza wouldn't become PM; it'd be a Tory. Whether it was a candidate in the subsequent contest, or a neutral to hold the ring while the others fought it out, or whether there was no election at all and a consensus candidate emerged would all depend on decisions at the time.

    I very much doubt that May would walk away in that manner but there is always the risk (as with any leader) of health issues intervening, which would produce the same imperative to appoint someone with little or no warning.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The rich have never been wealthier. House price rises, QE and a bull run on the markets have been brilliant for the best off.

    That's not actually true.

    For income, see the ONS statistical bulletin (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2016). Figure 2 is what you want to look at, which shows that - in income terms at least - the top quintile has done least well in the last eight years, and the bottom quintile the best.
    I've not been able to find very much information about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) on the internet. Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income, but I don't know if it's become more or less evenly distributed over the past decade.
    The problem is that measuring wealth is really, really hard.

    Take the Sunday Times Rich List. Robert Maxwell was pretty near the top of the list. But it actually turned out that he had rather less than nothing. Quite a lot of people who appear very rich are hugely leveraged to small changes in asset prices: if you own £1.1billion in property, but owe the bank £1bn, then you're worth £100m. Until property prices fall 10%, and then you're worth nothing.

    Lots of people's wealth is ephemeral for a different reason. If you own 10% of an internet startup valued at $500m, then you're very rich. Except that you aren't actually allowed to sell any of the shares, and the terms at which you took money from venture capitalists are such that they get first money out. If you sell the business for $400m, you might actually end up with nothing.
    One thing I did notice was that the poorest 1% of the population have net liabilities of £12,000 on average, but I suspect that's a mix of the very poor, and the sort of people you mention, who've seen their assets drop below heir liabilities (and who might still be doing quite well in income terms).
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    stuartrcstuartrc Posts: 12
    edited July 2017

    Pong said:

    Very off topic.

    Today, I've been learning about catastrophe bonds.

    Does anybody on here know if there's a way for a retail investor to short them? Like an inverse ETF or something?

    I'm new to investing.


    If you are new to investing you should stay away from inverse catastrophe bonds.

    Invest in something more straight forward and spread your risk until you have been through two crashes. The way to make money investing is to avoid losses.
    I never invest in something that I don't understand. What are catastrophe Bonds? Why would either backing or shorting them be a sensible use of money?
    Catastrophe bonds are one way of securitising an insurance company's exposure to losses resulting from Natural Catastrophes.

    The bonds are sold to asset owners and heavily promoted as being 'uncorrelated to stock markets' which investment consultants think is a good thing.

    Going back to Pong's question, I doubt you could short the bonds - nowhere near enough liquidity.

    On a related note, they are much like the MBS securitisations in that you need to look at the underlying properties you are exposed to via the bond before you can make an informed investment decision on any particular cat bond.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    @david_herdson - thank you.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    It's amazing how popular memories - long outdated in the present world - continue to inform current discussion. Nick's article contains a case in point:

    "As many have observed, challengers are mainly inhibited by the sense that whoever challenges may not win"

    There is no need for a challenger. As he himself points out further down in his piece, new candidates only enter the fray once the old leader has been disposed with. The first round would be "May vs not May". Only if "not May" wins, need others come forward - and they could be loyalists just as much as plotters.

    Yet still the mechanisms of the Major and late Thatcher eras keep being trotted out, a couple of decades after they became obsolete.

    That begs the question why the backbenchers haven't done their party the signal service of putting the incumbent out of her misery.
    Mostly because she just won a general election, so it would be nuts to change the leader immediately.
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