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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay’s now a net 24 points behind Corbyn in Ipsos MORI leaders

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay’s now a net 24 points behind Corbyn in Ipsos MORI leadership satisfaction ratings

Seven weeks on from the General Election Ipsos MORI’s new Political Monitor finds that the negative shift in TMay’s personal ratings continues. Her ratings are the worst from the pollser for a Prime Minister in the month after an election. The firm has been polling in the UK since the mid-1970s

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017
    Theresa May is crap and a pox on the Tory party, the only advantage in her staying for a couple more years is that it gives time for George, Dave, or Ruth to get a seat and become her replacement.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    When you factor in those leader ratings Labour probably have a 4% plus lead over the Tories
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Surprised it's as high as 66% of Tories happy with May.
    IMO that's not that bad a rating.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Theresa May is crap and a pox on the Tory party, the only advantage in her staying for a couple more years is that it gives time for George, Dave, or Ruth to get a seat and become her replacement.

    Dave ain't coming back and George was seriously unpopular with the public...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    rkrkrk said:

    Surprised it's as high as 66% of Tories happy with May.
    IMO that's not that bad a rating.

    Historically it is. It is not unknown for the Tories to have 90% plus approval rating for their PM.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Theresa May is crap and a pox on the Tory party, the only advantage in her staying for a couple more years is that it gives time for George, Dave, or Ruth to get a seat and become her replacement.

    Dave ain't coming back and George was seriously unpopular with the public...
    True. But then, who else do the Tories have?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Tom Westley and Dawid Malan have been named in the 13-man squad for the Third Investec Test against South Africa starting at the Kia Oval next Thursday.

    Essex’s Westley is set to earn his first cap with selectors confirming he will bat at number three in the 100th Test at the Oval.

    Middlesex batsman Malan is also included in the squad for the first time and could feature if England decide on selecting an extra batsmen when they confirm their starting line-up next week.

    https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/440466
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Tom Westley and Dawid Malan have been named in the 13-man squad for the Third Investec Test against South Africa starting at the Kia Oval next Thursday.

    Essex’s Westley is set to earn his first cap with selectors confirming he will bat at number three in the 100th Test at the Oval.

    Middlesex batsman Malan is also included in the squad for the first time and could feature if England decide on selecting an extra batsmen when they confirm their starting line-up next week.

    https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/440466

    I'm disappointed for Stoneman.

    Trevor Bayliss has apparently not personally seen him bat which seems a poor reason for the omission of such an in-form talent. Good luck to Westley though who was also very worthy to be selected.

    Drop Dawson and Wood, play Westley, Malan and Roland-Jones .... three debutants!

    What could possibly go wrong?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    I See David lammy has gone of the conspiracy theory deep end again.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Whatever you do, someone will whine..

    That's why I've never really understood u-turns. You just piss off both sides of the argument.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    I See David lammy has gone of the conspiracy theory deep end again.

    What has he said now?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    GeoffM said:

    Tom Westley and Dawid Malan have been named in the 13-man squad for the Third Investec Test against South Africa starting at the Kia Oval next Thursday.

    Essex’s Westley is set to earn his first cap with selectors confirming he will bat at number three in the 100th Test at the Oval.

    Middlesex batsman Malan is also included in the squad for the first time and could feature if England decide on selecting an extra batsmen when they confirm their starting line-up next week.

    https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/440466

    I'm disappointed for Stoneman.

    Trevor Bayliss has apparently not personally seen him bat which seems a poor reason for the omission of such an in-form talent. Good luck to Westley though who was also very worthy to be selected.

    Drop Dawson and Wood, play Westley, Malan and Roland-Jones .... three debutants!

    What could possibly go wrong?
    I was talking to a seasoned cricket watcher the other day, given the way the season is structured (and with the city based t20 tournament starting in a few years) we are likely to see no red ball cricket in this country between the middle of June until August, bar the tests.

    That means that if you're going to get picked for the England side during the English summer solely based on red ball cricket you'll have to impress in May and June, so if you have a shocker at the start of the season like Haseeb Hameed then you're buggered.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    I know, but when the government is spending billions on HS2 and can't afford a few million where commuters really need investment, you'll understand why we're pissed off.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818
    On the previous thread, the adage that, in Tory contests, "He who wields the knife never wields the crown" really needs a lot more support than "Well, it didn't work once" (Heseltine).

    Looking back:
    Cameron resigned due to the result of the referendum. I suppose you could argue that he was stabbed by Boris and Gove in the referendum, but that would be a stretch. In reality - no knife-wielder, no data point.
    Howard resigned off his own recognisance. No knife-wielder, no data point.
    IDS was brought down by widespread dissatisfaction. I don't know if anyone in particular was seen as marshalling it behind the scenes? Any data point here?
    Hague resigned after the 2001 general election. No knife-wielder, no data point.
    Major resigned after the 1997 general election. No knife-wielder, no data point.
    (To be fair, there was an attempted stalking-horse bring-down in 1995 with John Redwood, who fell well short, but I don't think he was ever seen as a likely candidate to pull it off)
    Thatcher resigned after the Heseltine challenge and, indeed, Heseltine did not wear the crown. (One supportive data point).
    Thatcher challenged Heath and pulled him down and took the crown. (One contradictory data point).
    Heath won when Douglas-Home stood down - I don't believe Douglas-Home was stabbed?
    Prior to that, you had the Magic Circle. Macmillan stood down in ill-health; No knife-wielder, no data point.
    Macmillan took over as one of two candidates to Eden, who stood down on ill-health. Arguably, Macmillan might have been seen to stab Eden as it was his switch from pro-Suez to anti-Suez after being a leading cheerleader of Suez intervention that made a key difference.
    And, of course, Eden pressured Churchill to stand down in his favour for a long time. So these last two are weak contradictory evidence against the thesis.

    It does look like he who wields the knife takes the crown more often than not when it comes to Tory leadership.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,076

    It does look like he who wields the knife takes the crown more often than not when it comes to Tory leadership.

    Andrea Leadsom approves this message.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    I missed the previous thread but it's related to this one so a few comments.

    The 'the assassin never wins the crown' meme is well-established but wrong. There are numerous examples across the years and across the parties of assassins winning the crown. They're rarely absolutely clean cut instances but people who were at least complicit in the ousting of their predecessor include Eden, Macmillan, Brown and Campbell. And Thatcher.

    This is the supreme irony of those who bring up the 1990 election. Thatcher herself wielded the knife and prospered immensely. Unlike Heseltine, who was if not the heir apparent then at least the accepted alternative, Thatcher was someone who came out of the pack and was considered by commentators a medium weight stalking horse to take down Heath, before the likes of Whitelaw entered in the second round.

    In any case, there's insufficient weight given to the roads not taken and excessive determinism in the saying. Heseltine could and would have won had Thatcher not withdrawn. She was losing backbenchers rapidly after the first round vote, when it was clear that her position was untenable. Heseltine not winning the crown was far from predetermined.

    Similarly, in 1995, it's entirely possible that had Portillo rather than Redwood challenged Major, he would have become PM. He would surely have won the extra 3 MPs that would have prompted Major to resign, given the amateur nature of Redwood's effort, and while Clarke, Heseltine and perhaps others might have entered the race in a second round, they would not necessarily have won. All were flawed candidates (which is ultimately why Major survived - there was no consensus alternative), but Portillo would likely have received Thatcher's tacit or even open endorsement in the second round, which could easily have been decisive.

    As for today, the beauty of the Tory process is that no-one need wield the knife these days; it's all done in secret. No candidate is compromised or elevated by being the one to challenge: the leader survives or falls on their own. Only if they fall do the alternatives have to openly declare (though obviously the extent to which potential replacements campaign for the leader in the VoNC is always telling).

    As in 1995, today's Tory field of potential replacements is similarly flawed which is why May, like Major, is likely to survive by default for a good while yet.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    @Andy_Cooke, the dagger wielded doesn't just apply to the dagger aimed at the incumbent.

    Gove wielded the dagger against Boris and failed to become leader

    Redwood wielded the dagger against John Major and failed to become leader, twice.

    Heseltine wielded the dagger against Margaret Thatcher and failed to become leader.

    Thatcher wielded the dagger against Heath and did become leader.

    There is a school of thought that says Enoch Powell did so badly in the 1965 contest was that he was a complication between two clear choices of modernisation and he was one hankering for the good old days.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2017

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    Tunnocks "British" teacake -gate all over again.

    I don't eat walkers crisps, nothing to do with annoying jug ears, they simply taste like shit.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    Surprised it's as high as 66% of Tories happy with May.
    IMO that's not that bad a rating.

    Historically it is. It is not unknown for the Tories to have 90% plus approval rating for their PM.
    Cameron I don't think was ever that unpopular with his party but Thatcher and Major?

    Thatcher got to low 20s among general population... so presumably she dipped below 66% for conservative supporters. Similarly, Major in 1995 apparently dropped as low as 14% approval.

    This link shows party leader ratings among general population... May is low but suggests both Thatcher and Major went lower at various points.

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/do-party-leader-approval-ratings-predict-election-outcomes/
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017
    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism was the more fundamental problem and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    Tunnocks "British" teacake -gate all over again.

    I don't eat walkers crisps, nothing to do with annoying jug ears, they simply taste like shit.
    Very greasy crisps imo.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Didn't he lose by one vote? Or was that Ken Clarke?
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    The bloodlust is once again brewing within the party, but it really is the wrong time for it. Easier said than done but they have to ignore the polls and leadership ratings and knuckle down with government and Brexit. Then see how the land lies say in a year or two's time.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Surprised it's as high as 66% of Tories happy with May.
    IMO that's not that bad a rating.

    Historically it is. It is not unknown for the Tories to have 90% plus approval rating for their PM.
    Cameron I don't think was ever that unpopular with his party but Thatcher and Major?

    Thatcher got to low 20s among general population... so presumably she dipped below 66% for conservative supporters. Similarly, Major in 1995 apparently dropped as low as 14% approval.

    This link shows party leader ratings among general population... May is low but suggests both Thatcher and Major went lower at various points.

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/do-party-leader-approval-ratings-predict-election-outcomes/
    You're comparing them at their nadirs, usually after years in government.

    For example the month after Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010 his approval rating with Tories was 87% satisfied and 6% disapprove.

    After the 2015 general election, Dave's rating amongst Tories was 90% approval and 6% disapprove
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Didn't he lose by one vote? Or was that Ken Clarke?
    He failed by 1 vote to make the final two.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Didn't he lose by one vote? Or was that Ken Clarke?
    Yes, by one vote. Clarke faced off against IDS in the members' run-off.

    Obviously, when you lose by so tight a margin, any number of things could have been 'the one' that tipped the result and perhaps there was an MP who was so upset with Portillo's behaviour re Hague that he (or she) switched vote in the subsequent election. But as TSE said, there were bigger issues at play. Portillo by 2001 was neither the Thatcherite he had been, nor a convincing moderniser. As such, he was distrusted by all sides and perhaps only got as many votes as he did because neither Clarke nor IDS was an acceptable leader either.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,076
    edited July 2017

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism was the more fundamental problem and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Portillo was the victim of a vile smear campaign by Duncan Smith's people (and the Daily Mail) linked to his change of position on Section 28. (Theresa May was one of those who went on to vote against repeal, belying her image as an early moderniser.)

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jul/18/uk.conservatives7
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism was the more fundamental problem and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Portillo was the victim of a vile smear campaign by Duncan Smith's people (and the Daily Mail) linked to his change of position on Section 28. Theresa May was one of those who went on to vote against repeal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jul/18/uk.conservatives7
    Yes Norman Tebbit's blatant homophobia didn't help Portillo, but there were other major issues with Portillo's campaign.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    I See David lammy has gone of the conspiracy theory deep end again.

    Yes he has - a second rate thinker with a penchant for the dramatic. Playing to the gallery will probably go down well with his constituents, but the chances of him ever seeing any kind of office even in a Corbyn government, must surely now be zero.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    GeoffM said:

    Tom Westley and Dawid Malan have been named in the 13-man squad for the Third Investec Test against South Africa starting at the Kia Oval next Thursday.

    Essex’s Westley is set to earn his first cap with selectors confirming he will bat at number three in the 100th Test at the Oval.

    Middlesex batsman Malan is also included in the squad for the first time and could feature if England decide on selecting an extra batsmen when they confirm their starting line-up next week.

    https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/440466

    I'm disappointed for Stoneman.

    Trevor Bayliss has apparently not personally seen him bat which seems a poor reason for the omission of such an in-form talent. Good luck to Westley though who was also very worthy to be selected.

    Drop Dawson and Wood, play Westley, Malan and Roland-Jones .... three debutants!

    What could possibly go wrong?
    I was talking to a seasoned cricket watcher the other day, given the way the season is structured (and with the city based t20 tournament starting in a few years) we are likely to see no red ball cricket in this country between the middle of June until August, bar the tests.

    That means that if you're going to get picked for the England side during the English summer solely based on red ball cricket you'll have to impress in May and June, so if you have a shocker at the start of the season like Haseeb Hameed then you're buggered.
    Reportedly Hameed has some technical problems to sort out, so it's not just a poor run of form. He'll be back at some point - and it would be a mistake to rush the return of someone with so much potential if they aren't quite ready.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    As an aside, the Tory leaders on homosexuality do have some interesting journeys.

    In the 60s Mrs Thatcher was one of those who supported Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality, one of her early acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster-Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and she employed a lot of open homosexuals, but she also introduced the shameful Section 28.

    Both Cameron and Theresa May voted against gay rights/equality legislation, something they both regret immensely today, but a testament to the journey they went on, they introduced same sex marriage,
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,314

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    Tunnocks "British" teacake -gate all over again.

    I don't eat walkers crisps, nothing to do with annoying jug ears, they simply taste like shit.
    er, no. Their chicken crisps (not the fancy ones, mind), are exceptional.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    TonyE said:

    I See David lammy has gone of the conspiracy theory deep end again.

    Yes he has - a second rate thinker with a penchant for the dramatic. Playing to the gallery will probably go down well with his constituents, but the chances of him ever seeing any kind of office even in a Corbyn government, must surely now be zero.
    Corbyn's bar is not that high.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    TonyE said:

    I See David lammy has gone of the conspiracy theory deep end again.

    Yes he has - a second rate thinker with a penchant for the dramatic. Playing to the gallery will probably go down well with his constituents, but the chances of him ever seeing any kind of office even in a Corbyn government, must surely now be zero.
    At the moment, I thought they were prerequisites for being in the shadow cabinet? Where as those with half a brain and take a more moderate tone are left on the backbenches.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    My goodness! You call yourself an Englishman and you've never eaten Walkers' Crisps?

    (Puts hand to brow and faints)

    ;)
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    My goodness! You call yourself an Englishman and you've never eaten Walkers' Crisps?

    (Puts hand to brow and faints)

    ;)
    They are part of PepsiCo these days.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Actually you could add Michael Portillo to the list, he was wielding the dagger against William Hague during the 2001 general election campaign (as noted by Amanda Platell.)

    But I think Portillo losing in 2001 was more to do with him falling out of love with Thatcherism was the more fundamental problem and given he was the poster boy for Thatcherism in the 90s and it showed in the campaign.

    Portillo was the victim of a vile smear campaign by Duncan Smith's people (and the Daily Mail) linked to his change of position on Section 28. (Theresa May was one of those who went on to vote against repeal, belying her image as an early moderniser.)

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jul/18/uk.conservatives7
    Portillo was also always going to be slightly damaged goods after his 'who dares, wins' conference speech in 1995. Rapturously received on the day, it outraged the military, and the air of being a bit of a fake hung about him thereafter (perhaps a little unfairly ?).

    But agreed, there was a large section of the party who were unreconstructed homophobes.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,076

    As an aside, the Tory leaders on homosexuality do have some interesting journeys.

    In the 60s Mrs Thatcher was one of those who supported Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality, one of her early acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster-Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and she employed a lot of open homosexuals, but she also introduced the shameful Section 28.

    I think Thatcher's acquiescence with Section 28 and the fact that she gave that conference speech using 'children being taught they have an inalienable right to be gay' as an example of left-wing influence in education are one of the clearest signs that both she, and a significant minority of the party, were losing their marbles.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.

    I can recommend the Worcester Sauce flavoured Walkers crisps.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2017

    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.

    "Why? Because when Network Rail first did their sums, it was based on guesswork. They hadn't looked in detail at what needed doing and it was just much harder than they thought to upgrade Victorian bridges and tunnels on a line that was being kept open at the same time."

    Was the same individual behind labour's student debt plans?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    The politicians have been very clear that if HS2 was scrapped, there wouldn't be more money for other rail projects.

    GWEP and the IEP has, quite frankly, been a disaster. It might have to take some time but they need to finish it otherwise they'll end up with some serious problems with the trains which aren't designed to run on diesel for long distances.

    As for the MML, I wouldn't bother electrifying it as there's no money to buy new electric trains. They could cascade the 91s and mark 4 coaches from the ECML but they don't accelerate quickly enough.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2017
    When will Vince Cable be declared leader of the Liberal Democrats? This afternoon?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    Well, I've never eaten Walkers' crisps, but if Letts is boycotting them and says they have a lefty sponsor, I'll go and buy some.

    So there.
    My goodness! You call yourself an Englishman and you've never eaten Walkers' Crisps?

    (Puts hand to brow and faints)

    ;)
    They are part of PepsiCo these days.
    I was not being 100% serious ...
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AndyJS said:

    When will Vince Cable be declared leader of the Liberal Democrats? This afternoon?

    Yes -- 4pm assuming no-one else gets nominated in the next two hours.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40662737

    Come back at 5 past for aftertiming how much we've all won. ;-)
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Trump - I'd never have hired Sessions if I'd realised he retained some vestigial notion of ethics...
    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/20/trump-goes-off-script-fumes-about-sessions-russia-240743
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.

    This is get rid of your garbage day. The last day before the recess when so many measures are slipped out that it's hoped few will notice.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    The politicians have been very clear that if HS2 was scrapped, there wouldn't be more money for other rail projects.

    GWEP and the IEP has, quite frankly, been a disaster. It might have to take some time but they need to finish it otherwise they'll end up with some serious problems with the trains which aren't designed to run on diesel for long distances.

    As for the MML, I wouldn't bother electrifying it as there's no money to buy new electric trains. They could cascade the 91s and mark 4 coaches from the ECML but they don't accelerate quickly enough.
    Keep the HST 125's going for another twenty years. ;)

    AIUI there'll be problems on the electrified GWML with the dual-mode IEPs. As they cannot accelerate as fast as the electric-only trains they were supposed to have (or, I think, as fast as the diesel trains they are replacing), then the services may get worse.

    The IEP project is promising to be another disaster.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2017
    The tories wouldn't know what the national interest is if it hit them in the face;

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Too busy shoveling pork to their clients.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.

    This is get rid of your garbage day. The last day before the recess when so many measures are slipped out that it's hoped few will notice.
    Perhaps more relevant to a politics blog, there was a vast amount of political horse-trading between Westminster and the Welsh government about the electrification of the valley lines. I doubt they'll be going ahead now, either.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818

    @Andy_Cooke, the dagger wielded doesn't just apply to the dagger aimed at the incumbent.

    Gove wielded the dagger against Boris and failed to become leader

    Redwood wielded the dagger against John Major and failed to become leader, twice.

    Heseltine wielded the dagger against Margaret Thatcher and failed to become leader.

    Thatcher wielded the dagger against Heath and did become leader.

    There is a school of thought that says Enoch Powell did so badly in the 1965 contest was that he was a complication between two clear choices of modernisation and he was one hankering for the good old days.

    Gove wielded the dagger incompetently, as was obvious from the moment he did it.
    Redwood was never a credible alternative.
    Heseltine was credible, and if Thatcher had not been persuaded to withdraw, he could easily have won.

    For the assassin to become the leader, the assassin must be a credible alternative and not carry it out incompetently, which is a basic level that needs to be met.

    Downthread, @williamglenn describes IDS wielding the dagger against Portillo in a way compatible with the expanded definition, and IDS ended up winning.

    Also downthread, @david_herdson expands a similar point to mine in more detail - and even points out that no explicit knifing is even needed.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Pong said:

    The tories wouldn't know what the national interest is if it hit them in the face;

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Too busy shoveling pork to their clients.

    This has been caused by the utter failure of the nationalised Network Rail to keep costs and schedules under control.

    I presume they've admitted that the new schemes won't be able to be done for the prices they said, either. I also presume that the rest of the northern electrification schemes (which are already in progress) will be going ahead.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    The politicians have been very clear that if HS2 was scrapped, there wouldn't be more money for other rail projects.

    GWEP and the IEP has, quite frankly, been a disaster. It might have to take some time but they need to finish it otherwise they'll end up with some serious problems with the trains which aren't designed to run on diesel for long distances.

    As for the MML, I wouldn't bother electrifying it as there's no money to buy new electric trains. They could cascade the 91s and mark 4 coaches from the ECML but they don't accelerate quickly enough.
    Keep the HST 125's going for another twenty years. ;)

    AIUI there'll be problems on the electrified GWML with the dual-mode IEPs. As they cannot accelerate as fast as the electric-only trains they were supposed to have (or, I think, as fast as the diesel trains they are replacing), then the services may get worse.

    The IEP project is promising to be another disaster.
    People like the 125s. The coaches need updating to comply with disability legislation but Scotrail are going to do that and GWR are planning to do that and put them on the South Wales to Pompey services.

    The IEPs will cost between 6 and 12 minutes to Bristol without the electrification through Bath. It hasn't really had much attention, but if performance dips considerably - and the last two months have not been good - then it could become a big story.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2017
    It appears a number of bbc bods are volunteering their salaries on twitter. I sense they aren't happy bunnies and their agents will have been getting some angry phone calls.

    Chris mason on £60k a year must be thinking f##k me the bbc have been taking the piss out of me.

    It does appear the bbc pay scale for factual programmes is the more male and more of an ignorant pillock you are the higher your pay.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Pong said:

    The tories wouldn't know what the national interest is if it hit them in the face;

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Too busy shoveling pork to their clients.

    This has been caused by the utter failure of the nationalised Network Rail to keep costs and schedules under control.

    I presume they've admitted that the new schemes won't be able to be done for the prices they said, either. I also presume that the rest of the northern electrification schemes (which are already in progress) will be going ahead.
    It's also a matter of capacity. We hadn't done much electrification since the ECML was done. It would have been far more sensibility to start doing it gradually and do a bit at a time. The problem with GWEP is the electrification was being done because they had to change the trains because of disability legislation which has made it a bit of a rush. And the contractors have realised what a strong position they are in and priced it accordingly.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Further proof, if proof were needed, that Andrea Leadsom is thick as pig pooh

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/887996769371652097
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    It appears a number of bbc bods are volunteering their salaries on twitter. I sense they aren't happy bunnies and their agents will have been getting some angry phone calls.

    Chris mason on £60k a year must be thinking f##k me the bbc have been taking the piss out of me.

    It does appear the bbc pay scale for factual programmes is the more male and more of an ignorant pillock you are the higher your pay.

    If pay was raised on being an ignorant pillock then Chris Mason would be on onehellofalot more than £60k
  • Options

    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.

    This is get rid of your garbage day. The last day before the recess when so many measures are slipped out that it's hoped few will notice.
    Absolute disgrace. The MML is already electrified as far as Bedford. How difficult can it really be to get it as far as Nottingham?!
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited July 2017

    Further proof, if proof were needed, that Andrea Leadsom is thick as pig pooh

    twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/887996769371652097

    She's following in distinguished footsteps.

    Now where's that video clip ... hmmm it's here somewhere ... sure I left it around ... ah yes, here it is.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsR4Nx-ELgc
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
    "The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens."
    Doubt it - there's no real way around the aerodynamic inefficiency and noise. And on lines as relatively short as HS2 there's simply no point to it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    GeoffM said:

    It appears a number of bbc bods are volunteering their salaries on twitter. I sense they aren't happy bunnies and their agents will have been getting some angry phone calls.

    Chris mason on £60k a year must be thinking f##k me the bbc have been taking the piss out of me.

    It does appear the bbc pay scale for factual programmes is the more male and more of an ignorant pillock you are the higher your pay.

    If pay was raised on being an ignorant pillock then Chris Mason would be on onehellofalot more than £60k
    That is why I said Mason must be thinking he is underpaid ;-)
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    The Conservatives’ wealthy backers are furious about the state of the party and are looking for fresh leadership to replace Theresa May, according to insiders with connections among the party’s network of contributors.

    Donors are angry that they were asked to pay for a general election – several wealthy individuals contributed amounts that were well into six figures – that they didn’t expect, don't believe was necessary, and turned out disastrously for the party.

    “They’re pissed off,” said a source close to 10 Downing Street. “They weren’t expecting to have to stump up for this election. Then, having done so, they realise they’ve got to do it again some time soon.”

    “Some of these people stumped up two years’ worth of donations and they didn’t get any return on their investment,” said a senior Conservative MP.

    The Conservatives tapped dozens of wealthy backers in the business and financial worlds for contributions in the run-up to the general election in June, raising £12.7 million in six weeks compared to Labour’s £4.5 million.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/the-tories-big-money-backers-are-furious-and-want-a-new?utm_term=.yfWaVYrbEB#.vjqMb20RLn
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    I think you are missing the point. Davis is simply trying to appear reasonable while Barnier gets more and more angry when he does not get what he wants. There is going to be a breakdown in talks at some stage. Davis is just ensuring that it will not look like the UKs fault.

    Barnier has promised the EU27 that he will get a massive settlement from the UK. As the UK refuse to acknowledge any liability at all, I am not surprised he is getting anxious. Davis is saying a settlement is possible, but I doubt he has much intention of going much further unless the EU start showing signs of compromise. It is not up to the UK to make an offer to settle a bill for which there is no basis; it is reasonable to settle the issue in return for something we want. Davis needs to keep it light and jovial - it is certainly unsettling Barnier.
    FF43 said:

    Interesting dynamics from the Barnier/Davis press conference. Barnier very assertive about controlling the agenda and pushing the pace. Davis in bargaining mode.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: interesting that all the top halo comments are derogatory.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40663158
  • Options
    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Does appear that in a role reversal it is now the EU using humans as 'bargaining chips'. Wonder if we will see the same level of anger from Europhiles as Mrs May's government faced a few months ago...
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    When will Vince Cable be declared leader of the Liberal Democrats? This afternoon?

    Yes -- 4pm assuming no-one else gets nominated in the next two hours.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40662737

    Come back at 5 past for aftertiming how much we've all won. ;-)
    Thanks.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited July 2017
    Grayling spinning this 'improvement' in Wales. Funding for new staton from private sector, and the Welsh puppet government in Cardiff.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/business/business-park-could-see-10000-220140?service=responsive#ICID=nsm

    If HS2 is such a wonderful project why isn't the line being funded by the private sector?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    Tiny gesture by a little man.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    When you factor in those leader ratings Labour probably have a 4% plus lead over the Tories

    And when you factor in the fact that a GE will be under a new Tory leader that suggests a 2%+ Tory lead. We could play silly games like this all the time - it's just a bit boring.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    I think you are missing the point. Davis is simply trying to appear reasonable while Barnier gets more and more angry when he does not get what he wants. There is going to be a breakdown in talks at some stage. Davis is just ensuring that it will not look like the UKs fault.

    Barnier has promised the EU27 that he will get a massive settlement from the UK. As the UK refuse to acknowledge any liability at all, I am not surprised he is getting anxious. Davis is saying a settlement is possible, but I doubt he has much intention of going much further unless the EU start showing signs of compromise. It is not up to the UK to make an offer to settle a bill for which there is no basis; it is reasonable to settle the issue in return for something we want. Davis needs to keep it light and jovial - it is certainly unsettling Barnier.

    FF43 said:

    Interesting dynamics from the Barnier/Davis press conference. Barnier very assertive about controlling the agenda and pushing the pace. Davis in bargaining mode.

    I'm not sure you understand how this PR business works. Davis will be known forever as the British Cabinet Minister who went on an 'away-day' when he was supposed to be in Brussels on important government business
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2017

    Rail electrification schemes scrapped:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40669869

    "Routes between Cardiff and Swansea, and between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, and between Windermere and Oxenholme will be affected."

    Network Rail have royally mucked this up.

    This is get rid of your garbage day. The last day before the recess when so many measures are slipped out that it's hoped few will notice.
    It would be great if they could also scrap HS2 (Is that the jargon?) and replace it by a new conventional line construction.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
    Yes. The London terminus should be between Kings Cross and St Pancras, which would enable combining the whole complex into a London Central. This would also have the side effect of going through the Guardian's office.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325
    edited July 2017

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Bugger!

    Still, I only have a limited number of English routes of the National Rail network left to do:

    Up in the NW:

    Barrow - Carlisle
    Heysham/Morecambe to Lancaster/Carnforth
    Clitheroe to Hellifield (Sunday only!)

    Up in the NE:

    Northallerton to Sunderland
    Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
    Middlesbrough to Whitby
    Stockton to Thornaby
    (Grosmont to Pickering, officially North Yorks Moors track, also appears on the National Rail map).

    Lincs:

    Barton to Habrough
    Retford to Barnetby via Gainsborough (Saturday only!)

    Manc:

    Stockport to Guide Bridge (Friday only!)

    West Yorks:

    Hebden Bridge to Burnley curve (ie. near Todmorden)
    Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate curve
    Sandal & Abrigg to Wakefield Kirkgate curve

    Bristol:

    Patchway to Filton Abbey

    Southwest:

    Yeovil to Weymouth
    Newton Abbot to Penzance
    Newton Abbot to Paignton
    Exeter to Barnstaple
    Exeter to Exmouth
    Okehampton to Crediton
    Keyham (Plymouth) to Gunnislake
    Liskeard to Looe
    Par to Newquay
    Truro to Falmouth
    St Erth to St Ives
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Bugger!

    Still, I only have a limited number of English routes of the National Rail network left to do:

    Up in the NW:

    Barrow - Carlisle
    Heysham/Morecambe to Lancaster/Carnforth
    Clitheroe to Hellifield

    Up in the NE:

    Northallerton to Sunderland
    Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
    Middlesbrough to Whitby
    Stockton to Thornaby
    (Grosmont to Pickering, officially North Yorks Moors track, also appears on the National Rail map).

    Lincs:

    Barton to Habrough
    Retford to Barnetby via Gainsborough (Saturday only!)

    Manc:

    Stockport to Guide Bridge (Friday only!)

    West Yorks:

    Hebden Bridge to Burnley curve (ie. near Todmorden)
    Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate curve
    Sandal & Abrigg to Wakefield Kirkgate curve

    Bristol:

    Patchway to Filton Abbey

    Southwest:

    Yeovil to Weymouth
    Newton Abbot to Penzance
    Newton Abbot to Paignton
    Exeter to Barnstaple
    Exeter to Exmouth
    Okehampton to Crediton
    Keyham (Plymouth) to Gunnislake
    Liskeard to Looe
    Par to Newquay
    Truro to Falmouth
    St Erth to St Ives
    .. and what then? start all over again?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    The latest gem from the Department for International Trade: there is a paper circulating on "A Tariff Schedule for 21st Century Britain".

    Now this is not, in itself, a stupid idea. While I personally would like a simple "no tariff" system, revamping tariffs so they match Britain's - rather than French farmers or German carmakers - needs is probably a good idea.

    But circulating a paper about possible changing tariffs systems (without actually having a specific proposal for tariffs) 20 months from leaving the EU is bonkers.

    Let's imagine you are considering building a factory. You now don't know what the tariffs will be - assuming no FTA - on components you need to import. That's unnecessary additional uncertainty.

    Now imagine that you are the Australian government: you care about British tariffs on agricultural and other commodities. Before you enter into FTA negotiations, you want to know British tariffs levels, because that will help you understand the cost/benefit trade-offs.

    Longer-term, would it be sensible for Britain to have its own tariff schedule? Yes. Is this a sensible thing to insert into the middle of a discussions with putative trade partners? No. In fact it's utterly insane, and reduces the chances that the British government will successfully conclude trade agreements with other countries in the next 18 months.

    The sensible thing to do is to commit to - say - three years using the EU tariff schedule. Alternatively, come out with a new tariff schedule now, today. The worst thing of all is to have a situation where the 21st Century British tariff schedule is announced to be coming, but no one knows exactly what it will contain, or when it will come into force.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. 1000, that does sound intensely stupid.

    Would this be a Fox nonsense?
  • Options
    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited July 2017
    There seems to be hardly a day when the EU is not picking a fight with some one

    - shouting at the Americans about NATO, and now threatening a trade war with them
    - shouting at the UK over medical isotopes which have never been restricted before, and now having to explain why they shouldn't have their own recycling back though this is the natural consequence of blocking any agreement by us with Euratom
    - shouting at the Russians over the Ukraine, but undercutting the Ukraine with the new gas pipeline which will leave the EU even more dependent on Russian gas
    - shouting at the Chinese over their shareholding in DB, but wanting a free trade agreement with them.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003

    Mr. 1000, that does sound intensely stupid.

    Would this be a Fox nonsense?

    I presume so, but don't know if it's his particular brainwave.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
    "The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens."
    Doubt it - there's no real way around the aerodynamic inefficiency and noise.
    Sealed trains in tunnels filled with hydrogen.

    (Note - I don't recommend this solution, which has the odd drawback of its own, but it is a way round the two challenges you mention).
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    GeoffM said:

    Tom Westley and Dawid Malan have been named in the 13-man squad for the Third Investec Test against South Africa starting at the Kia Oval next Thursday.

    Essex’s Westley is set to earn his first cap with selectors confirming he will bat at number three in the 100th Test at the Oval.

    Middlesex batsman Malan is also included in the squad for the first time and could feature if England decide on selecting an extra batsmen when they confirm their starting line-up next week.

    https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/440466

    I'm disappointed for Stoneman.

    Trevor Bayliss has apparently not personally seen him bat which seems a poor reason for the omission of such an in-form talent. Good luck to Westley though who was also very worthy to be selected.

    Drop Dawson and Wood, play Westley, Malan and Roland-Jones .... three debutants!

    What could possibly go wrong?
    Haseeb Hameed should be in. Ridiculous to ignore a batsman w proven test match temperament
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited July 2017
    Does anyone want to offer odds that Mr R.A Job is amongst us once more?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    Bugger!

    Still, I only have a limited number of English routes of the National Rail network left to do:

    Up in the NW:

    Barrow - Carlisle
    Heysham/Morecambe to Lancaster/Carnforth
    Clitheroe to Hellifield (Sunday only!)

    Up in the NE:

    Northallerton to Sunderland
    Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
    Middlesbrough to Whitby
    Stockton to Thornaby
    (Grosmont to Pickering, officially North Yorks Moors track, also appears on the National Rail map).

    Lincs:

    Barton to Habrough
    Retford to Barnetby via Gainsborough (Saturday only!)

    Manc:

    Stockport to Guide Bridge (Friday only!)

    West Yorks:

    Hebden Bridge to Burnley curve (ie. near Todmorden)
    Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate curve
    Sandal & Abrigg to Wakefield Kirkgate curve

    Bristol:

    Patchway to Filton Abbey

    Southwest:

    Yeovil to Weymouth
    Newton Abbot to Penzance
    Newton Abbot to Paignton
    Exeter to Barnstaple
    Exeter to Exmouth
    Okehampton to Crediton
    Keyham (Plymouth) to Gunnislake
    Liskeard to Looe
    Par to Newquay
    Truro to Falmouth
    St Erth to St Ives
    There isn't a Wakefield Kirkgate to Sandal & A[g]brigg curve.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    A quick comment on the BBC salaries.

    I just hope that all the overpaid leftie beeboids are paying their full whack of income tax. Wouldn't like to think of them using 'interesting' avoidance schemes.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Just seen on Twitter that Alexander was born on this day. Also seen that someone thinks Macedon was a Greek kingdom.

    *sighs*
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191


    Bugger!

    Still, I only have a limited number of English routes of the National Rail network left to do:

    Up in the NW:

    Barrow - Carlisle
    Heysham/Morecambe to Lancaster/Carnforth
    Clitheroe to Hellifield (Sunday only!)

    Up in the NE:

    Northallerton to Sunderland
    Bishop Auckland to Saltburn
    Middlesbrough to Whitby
    Stockton to Thornaby
    (Grosmont to Pickering, officially North Yorks Moors track, also appears on the National Rail map).

    Lincs:

    Barton to Habrough
    Retford to Barnetby via Gainsborough (Saturday only!)

    Manc:

    Stockport to Guide Bridge (Friday only!)

    West Yorks:

    Hebden Bridge to Burnley curve (ie. near Todmorden)
    Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate curve
    Sandal & Abrigg to Wakefield Kirkgate curve

    Bristol:

    Patchway to Filton Abbey

    Southwest:

    Yeovil to Weymouth
    Newton Abbot to Penzance
    Newton Abbot to Paignton
    Exeter to Barnstaple
    Exeter to Exmouth
    Okehampton to Crediton
    Keyham (Plymouth) to Gunnislake
    Liskeard to Looe
    Par to Newquay
    Truro to Falmouth
    St Erth to St Ives

    Barrow - Carlisle and Barrow - Lancaster are lovely. Well worth a long weekend!
    Middlesbrough to Whitby is quite nice - very rural and there's an interesting T-shaped station. It drives in and reverses out.
    Par - Newquay - eh, surprisingly grim
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Just seen on Twitter that Alexander was born on this day. Also seen that someone thinks Macedon was a Greek kingdom.

    *sighs*

    The Greek case, as explained to me by a Greek government official, is this: "Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, and they were both Greek. They would shiver in their graves today at the idea that [Slavs] who migrated to the vicinity of their region seven centuries after them, belonging to a completely different civilization, would try to change history in order to give allure to their own culture."

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0707-slattery-alexander-macedonia-20150707-story,amp.html
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Eagles, that does sound a bit like Philippe Contamine claiming in War in the Middle Ages that heavy cavalry (knights/chevaliers) remained the dominant force on the battlefield throughout the Hundred Years War.

    As for Slavs, you might say that about the Greeks of today themselves!

    Aristotle was a Greek, but the notion that makes Alexander the Great a Greek is like me claiming to be African because my final year tutor for my dissertation was.

    Geographically, most of ancient Macedon is within the current boundaries of Greece. But so what? Was Richard the Lionheart French? Was Canute an Anglo-Saxon? You can't impose modern cartography on the ancient world, unless you're mad.

    Suppose Greece conquers all Europe. Would that make Bismarck Greek? Wellington? Napoleon? Charlemagne?

    I can understand the desire to claim Alexander as one of your own (indeed, Yorkshire claims God), but that doesn't make it true.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
    Yes. The London terminus should be between Kings Cross and St Pancras, which would enable combining the whole complex into a London Central. This would also have the side effect of going through the Guardian's office.
    At the rate the guardian are burning through money, and the speed HS2 is progressing, I'd imagine the office will be vacant of leftie journalists long before they need to knock it down.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Then you wonder why people are so opposed to HS2.

    Grayling sparks fury by scrapping rail electrification plans

    Government accused of ‘years of broken promises’ after dropping schemes to make network faster and greener

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/20/grayling-sparks-fury-by-scrapping-rail-electrification-plans

    That has nothing to do with HS2...
    You sure about that ?
    The amount being blown on HS2 surely has to factor in to the overall spending picture.
    If anything it strengthens the need for HS2 as it highlights how expensive it is nowadays to do work to increase capacity and speeds on existing lines. Witness also the WCML upgrade debacle.

    Heads should roll at the (nationalised) Network Rail over this.
    I don't disagree with that, but I still think there's no good explanation for the 400kph specification (other than politicians being able to crow about it).
    Because other people are currently building 350km/hr lines, and they're planning 400km/hr ones. The higher speed will probably be state-of-the-art when HS2 opens.

    I also think you overestimate the cost savings that would be made if they went for a lower speed such as 300 km/hr.

    But as it happens, I believe it's one of the stronger arguments against HS2 as it stands. The other being Euston ...
    Yes. The London terminus should be between Kings Cross and St Pancras, which would enable combining the whole complex into a London Central. This would also have the side effect of going through the Guardian's office.
    Lol!
This discussion has been closed.