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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The unofficial Tory leadership contest is getting vicious with

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The unofficial Tory leadership contest is getting vicious with all sorts of briefings and smears flying about

Ally of David Davis is spreading rumours Boris Johnson slept with Theresa May’s aide during campaign https://t.co/7ltka8PGd8

Read the full story here


Comments

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    First, glorious first!
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Second only
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    How very responsible of them.

    Time to roll out the scorpion and frog fable again ?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Self before party. Party before country. The Tory way.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    RobD said:

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
    You've obviously found the secret delete-post code!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    Bring back the magic circle!
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited July 2017
    Why on earth is Hammond considered a more electorally-appealing leader than May?

    I can atleast see the argument with Boris (he has the biggest potential upside, although a big downside too), and even Davis makes a certain amount of sense, but HAMMOND?!?!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
    You've obviously found the secret delete-post code!
    You can see the two fake threads here - http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussions ;)
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
    You've obviously found the secret delete-post code!
    You can see the two fake threads here - http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussions ;)
    Oh yes - how interesting. Does that happen often? As a relative newbie I wasn't aware of the bug.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
    You've obviously found the secret delete-post code!
    You can see the two fake threads here - http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussions ;)
    Oh yes - how interesting. Does that happen often? As a relative newbie I wasn't aware of the bug.
    Not all the time, but often enough. Keeps the newbies off guard and lets the old timers grab a first every now and again.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    How ridiculous! - Next you'll be telling me that John Major and Edwina Currie had a fling.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    Yes, but that fails to explain how Gove got back in the cabinet....
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    My 'First' post was there and now it's gone!? A bit like Tessa's majority :smile:

    Vanilla bug... honest guv'nor.
    You've obviously found the secret delete-post code!
    You can see the two fake threads here - http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussions ;)
    Oh yes - how interesting. Does that happen often? As a relative newbie I wasn't aware of the bug.
    Not all the time, but often enough. Keeps the newbies off guard and lets the old timers grab a first every now and again.
    Ah fair enough. I think I'll get over it.

    On topic: it's just over a month since the GE, do we really have to put up with another 59 months of this shambles masquerading as government? I am not sure I can face it tbh.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    The Tory party never ever bloody learn, do they?
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963
    And people wonder why politicians are held in such utter contempt...
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited July 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    Are you saying either is incapable of sleeping with the other ? OTOH....

    Major and Currie ?

    Edit: Benpointer got there first. I blame vanilla. But clearly your comment would have got the same answer.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    Umm. Yeah.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    FPT - I'm not sure I can wait another week until Dunkirk is released.

    Just listen to this terrific piece from Hans Zimmer. So intense, you feel you're there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=n1VJ39nVIBk
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    The Tory party never ever bloody learn, do they?

    It's not too late to give the reins to Ken Clarke. ;)
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    And people wonder why politicians are held in such utter contempt...

    Actually it made me reflect on why journalists are held in such utter contempt.

    Really? This stuff is all hard evidence based?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The Tory party never ever bloody learn, do they?

    It's not too late to give the reins to Ken Clarke. ;)
    I could accept that with Soubry in charge of Exiting the EU. And Heidi Allen, well, anywhere as long as she is on the Telly all the time.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Just when folks thought been an ex-TM aide was bad enough !
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    GeoffM said:

    And people wonder why politicians are held in such utter contempt...

    Actually it made me reflect on why journalists are held in such utter contempt.

    Really? This stuff is all hard evidence based?
    All it does is inflate egos.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    FPT - I'm not sure I can wait another week until Dunkirk is released.

    Just listen to this terrific piece from Hans Zimmer. So intense, you feel you're there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=n1VJ39nVIBk

    Do you reckon it will be worth a trip to the actual flics? Not likely to be a let down?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    Yes, but that fails to explain how Gove got back in the cabinet....
    He supplied the co***m.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    That reminds me... He claimed to have some gossip that would be enough to bring down Macron.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    FPT - I'm not sure I can wait another week until Dunkirk is released.

    Just listen to this terrific piece from Hans Zimmer. So intense, you feel you're there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=n1VJ39nVIBk

    Do you reckon it will be worth a trip to the actual flics? Not likely to be a let down?
    Oh God, yes. I think it looks incredible.

    One must be wary of hype, but I've heard nothing bad about it so far.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    That reminds me... He claimed to have some gossip that would be enough to bring down Macron.
    And Osborne.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    FPT - I'm not sure I can wait another week until Dunkirk is released.

    Just listen to this terrific piece from Hans Zimmer. So intense, you feel you're there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=296&v=n1VJ39nVIBk

    Do you reckon it will be worth a trip to the actual flics? Not likely to be a let down?
    Oh God, yes. I think it looks incredible.

    One must be wary of hype, but I've heard nothing bad about it so far.
    Fair enough - I'll give it a go.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
    Go on, tell us anyway.

    We can always exaggerate it for you and take it out of context later at no extra charge.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
    Go on, tell us anyway.

    We can always exaggerate it for you and take it out of context later at no extra charge.
    I think you've just nailed why I'm not going to share the story.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    It'll just get worse, they need to stop faffing around and have the leadership election. It doesn't matter whether the members decide or the MPs stitch something up or the play scissors-paper-stone for it or what, just get on with it.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    That reminds me... He claimed to have some gossip that would be enough to bring down Macron.
    And Osborne.
    If the Access Hollywood tapes weren't enough to scupper Trump, one wonders what does constitute a fatal blow gossip-wise these days.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The music for musical chairs is speeding up in its later stages.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
    I once shared a bedroom with a current female Tory MP.

    I slept on the floor. Nothing happened.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017
    I wish I could talk about my chat with a former Tory MP about the etiquette of snorting cocaine on a woman's/hooker's boobs.

    On that bombshell, good night.

    (it was in the context of this revelation by Boris, https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/people/boris-johnson-wouldnt-recommend-snorting-icing-sugar-to-any-young-person-9804489.html?amp, and Lord Sewel)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited July 2017

    The music for musical chairs is speeding up in its later stages.

    Yesterday I placed a £100 bet with someone who read PPE at Oxford that Mrs May wouldn't be PM by the start of the 2018 recess.

    I'm gonna win.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325

    The Tory party never ever bloody learn, do they?

    Election 2017 is our Dunkirk. We get our arses kicked, but live to fight another day.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
    I once shared a bedroom with a current female Tory MP.

    I slept on the floor. Nothing happened.
    I went on a stag do with a current Tory MP.

    And not a single Nazi uniform in sight.

    This really is Anti-Anecdotes Night
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017
    Phil Hammond is proving rather more colourful than we thought he was. He must be taking good advice.

    In all seriousness, though - both main parties do need some way of ditching Prime Ministers in times of political stress, without triggering a full and impractical leadership contest. Labour had the problem when Brown proved a disaster as PM, and the Tories have a similar problem with Theresa May. Having said that, I think the moment has passed, so I'm surprised that the jostling continues - and a full contest is impossible under the lash of the Article 50 timetable.

    Disclaimer: I have a grey suit, and am prepared to do my duty for the party and country.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    edited July 2017
    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    So HM Treasury is raising more money despite having cut income/corporation tax? Isn't that the Tory way? :smiley:
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320

    Phil Hammond is proving rather more colourful than we thought he was. He must be taking good advice.

    In all seriousness, though - both main parties do need some way of ditching Prime Ministers in times of political stress, without triggering a full and impractical leadership contest. Labour had the problem when Brown proved a disaster as PM, and the Tories have a similar problem with Theresa May. Having said that, I think the moment has passed, so I'm surprised that the jostling continues - and a full contest is impossible under the lash of the Article 50 timetable.

    Disclaimer: I have a grey suit, and am prepared to do my duty for the party and country.

    Commendable Richard, but to prise Mrs May out of number 10 I think The Men In White Suits will be needed.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited July 2017
    ......and Sara V found a phone with a text which she copied and passed to Govey who 'accidentally' left it on Boris's desk not realising Boris had given his desk to DD who passed it to PH who slipped it into his red box which was opened at Cabinet where they were discussing the budget. You should have seen TM's face! She couldn't wait to tell Phil who was playing tennis with Des who naturaly got first refusal but-and I quote-'if she's not an Asian Babe with big jugs or related to Di my readers won't be interested'........So she gave it to Kelv who passed it to Cole whose readers will read anything

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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    Tax rates went down and tax revenue as a % of GDP went up. Something a number of people on here have said isn't possible.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Commendable Richard, but to prise Mrs May out of number 10 I think The Men In White Suits will be needed.

    Next time we meet, remind me to tell you about Gordon Brown, August 2009.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    What an absolute shambles of a government.I certainly wouldn't want any of those at the top of the Tory party to look after my chip-shop for the weekend.They's burn it down!
    What happened to "taking back control"?The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325

    What an absolute shambles of a government.I certainly wouldn't want any of those at the top of the Tory party to look after my chip-shop for the weekend.They's burn it down!
    What happened to "taking back control"?The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    We need countermeasures against the EU-Boat menace!
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    rawzerrawzer Posts: 189

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    Tax rates went down and tax revenue as a % of GDP went up. Something a number of people on here have said isn't possible.
    Over the long term the the deficit is usually not by reduced spending less or by taxing more - the same levels of tax deliver the necessary revenue to pay it down if the economy grows. So just need to find the 'make the economy grow' lever and all will be well
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm pretty sure pb.com can compete with this level of gossip.

    Didn't SeanT once claim to have had a fling with Rachel Johnson?

    I once spent the night with a current Tory minister*.

    * The story is not actually that exciting.
    I once shared a bedroom with a current female Tory MP.

    I slept on the floor. Nothing happened.
    I went on a stag do with a current Tory MP.

    And not a single Nazi uniform in sight.

    This really is Anti-Anecdotes Night
    If there isn't a Nazi uniform involved, it's not a proper stag do.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
    It seems all the Tory cabinet are having a go on the tiller without supervision going in the direction they want,and the next comes along goes in the opposite diretion etc etc ad infinitum. When some in the Tory party are looking for inspiration from Jacob Rees-Mogg,who is very good upper-class breeder,as I have said before,the Tories fate is the one of the Dodo.Doomed,I tell you.Doomed.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017
    rawzer said:

    Over the long term the the deficit is usually not by reduced spending less or by taxing more - the same levels of tax deliver the necessary revenue to pay it down if the economy grows. So just need to find the 'make the economy grow' lever and all will be well

    We found it, following the election in 1979. We just need to grip it again.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
    It seems all the Tory cabinet are having a go on the tiller without supervision going in the direction they want,and the next comes along goes in the opposite diretion etc etc ad infinitum. When some in the Tory party are looking for inspiration from Jacob Rees-Mogg,who is very good upper-class breeder,as I have said before,the Tories fate is the one of the Dodo.Doomed,I tell you.Doomed.
    Maybe, but even Jacob Rees-Mogg is nothing like as off-the-wall loony as the triumvirate running Labour.
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    rawzerrawzer Posts: 189

    rawzer said:

    Over the long term the the deficit is usually not by reduced spending less or by taxing more - the same levels of tax deliver the necessary revenue to pay it down if the economy grows. So just need to find the 'make the economy grow' lever and all will be well

    We found it, following the election in 1979. We just need to grip it again.
    It turns up pretty regularly - always nice for whoever thinks they are driving the bus at the point it happens
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    Tax rates went down and tax revenue as a % of GDP went up. Something a number of people on here have said isn't possible.
    (and @RobD)

    You guys are just swallowing your own myths... some taxes have gone down, others have gone up (e.g. stamp duty, NI contributions, and restriction of tax relief on pensions).
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
    They don't get to choose, they all vote on the same day and the system deliberately obscures what the other voters are doing so they have no way to fine-tune the size of the majority.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    the tory paryy arent sentimental. Theyll decide who they want as leader and will make sure anyone else fails to makethe final 2. Itll be between damian green or hammond. Maybe davis is before march 2019
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
    They don't get to choose, they all vote on the same day and the system deliberately obscures what the other voters are doing so they have no way to fine-tune the size of the majority.
    They didn't need to fine-tune it, just make sure she got it. They chose not to, collectively - it's a bit rich to blame the ensuing chaos on those trying to clear up the mess.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    Tax rates went down and tax revenue as a % of GDP went up. Something a number of people on here have said isn't possible.
    (and @RobD)

    You guys are just swallowing your own myths... some taxes have gone down, others have gone up (e.g. stamp duty, NI contributions, and restriction of tax relief on pensions). The main tax that has
    Not at all. Major taxes that bring in real amounts of money and which have a direct impact on growth and businesses are the ones that were cut and are the ones that are generating increased revenue as a result.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    rawzer said:

    rawzer said:

    Over the long term the the deficit is usually not by reduced spending less or by taxing more - the same levels of tax deliver the necessary revenue to pay it down if the economy grows. So just need to find the 'make the economy grow' lever and all will be well

    We found it, following the election in 1979. We just need to grip it again.
    It turns up pretty regularly - always nice for whoever thinks they are driving the bus at the point it happens
    I agree with Rawzer on the whole, but the one thing guaranteed to put the mockers on prospects for growth is a hefty dose of austerity. Oh... well done George! Still at least you've escaped the worst effects yourself eh?
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    619619 Posts: 1,784

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Lets put a 100% tax on the murdochs. We get the money we need and he may fuck off. Win win!
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Danny565 said:

    Why on earth is Hammond considered a more electorally-appealing leader than May?

    I can atleast see the argument with Boris (he has the biggest potential upside, although a big downside too), and even Davis makes a certain amount of sense, but HAMMOND?!?!

    Because he talks like a grown up. Tories cant call May mommy any more, they need daddy
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    619 said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Lets put a 100% tax on the murdochs. We get the money we need and he may fuck off. Win win!
    I like the cut of your gib sir #DontBuyTheSun.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    edited July 2017

    ...The good ship UK is rudderless and riding around in ever decreasing circles.

    Yes, that's what voters decided to go for. Lord only knows why, but that's what they did.
    They don't get to choose, they all vote on the same day and the system deliberately obscures what the other voters are doing so they have no way to fine-tune the size of the majority.
    They didn't need to fine-tune it, just make sure she got it. They chose not to, collectively - it's a bit rich to blame the ensuing chaos on those trying to clear up the mess.
    A big majority would have been bad too, because she'd have taken it as a mandate for all kinds of stupid shit she was advocating. And a lot of the voters were trying to give Jeremy Corbyn a stable majority. Unfortunately the system only gives them one lever, and the result it has depends on the way someone else pulls their lever, which they don't know. This is also the design that made a perfectly functional French Airbus end up in the Atlantic.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    The Sun article says "any attempt to raise taxes would be dangerous" But surely Tory MPs appreciate that taxes have to go up if the deficit is to be reduced without causing further damage to the country and their own electoral prospects? Have I read that wrong?

    Do they? Taxes went down over the last parliament and what happened to the deficit?
    No they didn't; if anyhting they have crept up a bit...
    Year Total Direct Revenue as a %GDP
    2010 35.32%
    2011 36.31%
    2012 36.70%
    2013 36.55%
    2014 36.77%
    2015 36.33%
    2016 36.63%
    2017 37.20%

    But in any event that's not really my point. The deficit can be reduced by spending less or taxing more. Spending less is going to be increasingly unsustainable for this Government if it doesn't want to be annihilated at the next GE.

    Expect to see big tax rises over the next few years.
    Tax rates went down and tax revenue as a % of GDP went up. Something a number of people on here have said isn't possible.
    (and @RobD)

    You guys are just swallowing your own myths... some taxes have gone down, others have gone up (e.g. stamp duty, NI contributions, and restriction of tax relief on pensions). The main tax that has
    Not at all. Major taxes that bring in real amounts of money and which have a direct impact on growth and businesses are the ones that were cut and are the ones that are generating increased revenue as a result.
    Nonsense - the proportion of government revenue from Income and Corporate taxes has fallen since 2008-9 whereas the proportion from indirect and property taxes has risen. Take a look at figure 3. in this IFS report...

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN_182.pdf
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    edited July 2017
    If it's true that the overall state of the Tory is a kind of bi-polar duopoly of panic and complacency,we have just experienced the complacency bit so expect the panic to ensue,which could rise into a full volcanic panic attack.It would maybe be wise if Tories invested in some paper bags to help them with their breathing.I'm sure nanny can supply the nappies.
    Financial markets,however,may not see any funny side to government chaos adding to the existing uncertainty,as the OBR suggested.It would not surprise me one bit if a "correction" came along otherwise known as a market crash.
    One thing is for sure,this ain't strong and stable.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,707

    Self before party. Party before country. The Tory way.

    Party First Andy Burnham
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003
    Sean_F said:

    Initially I read that as Boris Johnson having slept with Theresa May.

    Boris is a cocksman of no mean pedigree but there are limits.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Acid attacks are a crime without pity, and a mirror on our unforgiving times
    Deborah Orr

    Though it is hard to explain the growth of these offences, they do seem to reflect the rising anger around us"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/14/acid-attacks-capital-london-crime-anger
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,707
    Pity that comment about 'The Men in Grey suits' going to bolster May has been cropped....can't find the rest of the story on The Sun website - and it might be more significant than the Hammond gaffe story.....looks like the silly season is upon us....also Tom Newton Dunn claiming Forsyth's story as an 'exclusive'......
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    JetJet Posts: 11
    How many MPs hold or have a right to acquire citizenship of EU states other than Britain, such as the Republic of Ireland?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,707
    However 'dismal' May maybe, or 'loony' Corbyn's team, at least none of them would contemplate doing what fellow EU member Poland's government appears to be up to:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/pis-polands-point-of-no-return/
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    DougieDougie Posts: 57
    edited July 2017
    SeanF mentioned the ConHome article today by Lewis Baston, which was fascinating. White working class seats are swinging Tory whereas more ethnically diverse middle class seats are swinging the opposite way - and this has been the case for at least the last 30 years (Scotland aside since there are different forces at play there).

    The first problem the Tories have is that the former demographic is relatively speaking, declining, whereas the latter is increasing. The second problem is that the Tories have no option but to continue with a relatively hard Brexit, given the referendum and their current voter demographics - but that is bound to alienate the second group, the votes of whom in some proportion they need to form a decent majority government.

    What is the answer? in the short term, I don't see one but to carry through Brexit to the best they can. Not to do so will ruin the party for a generation given the position they are in - and the more that hardliners on either side rebel against the government's strategy, the harder it makes it for the Tories both to win the next GE and in the longer run, to rebuild the party. The only way forward I see is to bring in Brexit in a relatively united manner, then to take whatever punishment the electorate may deliver at the ballot box and rebuilt the coalition of centrist/conservative middle class and socially conservative/pro-aspiration working class voters that has delivered the Tory PArty victory in the past as best they can.

    This might a pretty trite set of comments (apologies for that, I've had a bit to drink), but I really don't see how sniping from both sides of the Conservative coalition helps the Tory Party in any way short, medium or long term and thereby the country - I take the Baldwinesque view that the country needs a strong centre-right force to restrain extremism from both ends of the spectrum. The TSE approach, I think, risks the utter destruction of the Tory Party as it stands and ushers in an era of Labour/centre-left dominance while the centre right sorts itself out, Canadian style, and very possibly with a more populist style. The opposite, hard Brexit approach I think preserves the Tory Party as one of the main parties of state but risks consigning it to the sidelines for a decade or so as we experienced between 1997 and 2010 while the emotions and disillusionment brought into play by Brexit eventually calm down. The danger there is that the Tories become the UK version of the Republican Party, dependent upon a high turnout of declining demographics to achieve power.

    Ultimately my view is that the Tories don't have any option but to let Theresa May get on with Brexit. Hardly ideal but I don't see how else the Conservatives can retain the perception as being a competent party of government.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    edited July 2017

    However 'dismal' May maybe, or 'loony' Corbyn's team, at least none of them would contemplate doing what fellow EU member Poland's government appears to be up to:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/pis-polands-point-of-no-return/

    Is Theresa May pulling her diplomatic weight, or is she too compromised by needing Poland's support in the Brexit negotiations?

    https://www.ft.com/content/9fa6a286-0fed-11e7-b030-768954394623
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Dougie said:



    Ultimately my view is that the Tories don't have any option but to let Theresa May get on with Brexit. Hardly ideal but I don't see how else the Conservatives can retain the perception as being a competent party of government.

    You feel that is how they are currently perceived?
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Eight years ago today, the eight coffins of the eight British servicemen who were killed in Afghanistan on 10th July 2009 (the biggest loss of life of British personnel in one day in the Afghanistan campaign) travelled through the village of Wootton Bassett.

    Wootton Bassett (15.7.09)

    Who were these men?
    What are they to me,
    These eight young men who died
    In a land across the sea?

    They went to fight the Taliban,
    To serve their gracious noble Queen
    But what’s it for? What does it mean,
    When some are dead at just eighteen?

    No more the blazing sun for them
    No more the sand or flies
    Innoculations or mosquito nets;
    The cool relief comes as he dies.

    No more the sound of bang and rattle
    No more fear of shrapnel’s clatter,
    Roadside bombs or I.E.D.s,
    Snipers, or their Pashto chatter

    Knowing not the greater picture,
    Unconscious of the whirlwind’s reaping:
    Imperialism’s latest misadventure
    Takes its harvest as they’re sleeping

    They were someone’s sons and dads,
    Boyfriend or a cheeky brother,
    Grandson, uncle, one of the lads,
    Always someone’s one or other

    These eight men, who were they to me?
    Someone else’s own Prince Harry,
    Someone other’s Daniel Radcliffe,
    Perhaps waiting, some day to marry

    All were precious, strong, beloved,
    Eight noble princes from a different clan
    Taken each from his own people,
    Now all grimly equal, to a man.


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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    However 'dismal' May maybe, or 'loony' Corbyn's team, at least none of them would contemplate doing what fellow EU member Poland's government appears to be up to:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/pis-polands-point-of-no-return/

    Is Theresa May pulling her diplomatic weight, or is she too compromised by needing Poland's support in the Brexit negotiations?

    https://www.ft.com/content/9fa6a286-0fed-11e7-b030-768954394623
    Kick Poland out of the EU or, as a minimum,put on sanctions. On Hungary as well.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963

    However 'dismal' May maybe, or 'loony' Corbyn's team, at least none of them would contemplate doing what fellow EU member Poland's government appears to be up to:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/pis-polands-point-of-no-return/

    I would like to see other reports on this from more balanced commentators. The CEU has its own agenda which has brought it into direct conflict with three central European Government's now. It clearly sees itself as a strongly activist institution whose aim is to shape government along lines it and it's founder George Soros pursue. As such I am dubious about any claims it makes regarding the legitimacy or otherwise of government decisions.
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    stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    All of the present contenders are bald men fighting for a comb. If the Tories want to win the next election, they will select someone not in the current cabinet who will take the party in a new direction.
This discussion has been closed.