Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
That ugly phrase and some other potty-mouthed remarks seem very unworthy of Gentleman John. I feel sad and betrayed. But perhaps politics is like the army, where foul language is part of the culture and you have to use it to fit in.
Thank you for reminding us of the flak John Major had to go through for not backing the Eurozone. Other than the conservative newspapers, the bulk of the establishment harangued him for not joining and foreign leaders and diplomats lined up to castigate him for it. But after all the fuss, it ultimately turned out to be the right decision. Brexit is very similar.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
What odds will you give me that none of those three options described occur? (The UK stays in the EU for the indefinite future, the UK crashes out without a deal, the UK agrees a deal with free movement of labour).
I already have a large bet with SeanT that we will still be in the EU at the end of 2019.
Mr. Gin, her own damned fault. She was complacent, didn't attack Corbyn's policies, couldn't defend her own, had a financially and emotionally sensitive major policy shoved in at the last moment, disregarding protests about it.
What odds will you give me that none of those three options described occur? (The UK stays in the EU for the indefinite future, the UK crashes out without a deal, the UK agrees a deal with free movement of labour).
I already have a large bet with SeanT that we will still be in the EU at the end of 2019.
large? I thought that got a 0 trimmed off it when you wet the bed afterwards?
What will the government be "backing down" on? We automatically leave Euratom when we leave the EU?
How can the government "back down" on something that isn't in their control?
Once we've left we'll obviously re-join under an associate relationship like the Swiss have... But that would've happened anyway.
Indeed. This is a dance that we know the steps to.
The way continuity remain is still fighting the referendum is very annoying.
I saw a report on the news earlier about Justin King (ex-Sainsbury's) saying Brexit will mean higher food coasts... I thought we went over all that before the referendum.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Mr. Gin, her own damned fault. She was complacent, didn't attack Corbyn's policies, couldn't defend her own, had a financially and emotionally sensitive major policy shoved in at the last moment, disregarding protests about it.
What odds will you give me that none of those three options described occur? (The UK stays in the EU for the indefinite future, the UK crashes out without a deal, the UK agrees a deal with free movement of labour).
I already have a large bet with SeanT that we will still be in the EU at the end of 2019.
What odds will you give me that none of those three options described occur? (The UK stays in the EU for the indefinite future, the UK crashes out without a deal, the UK agrees a deal with free movement of labour).
I already have a large bet with SeanT that we will still be in the EU at the end of 2019.
large? I thought that got a 0 trimmed off it when you wet the bed afterwards?
No, it was Sean who got cold feet and I agreed to reduce it.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Would have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
What will the government be "backing down" on? We automatically leave Euratom when we leave the EU?
How can the government "back down" on something that isn't in their control?
Once we've left we'll obviously re-join under an associate relationship like the Swiss have... But that would've happened anyway.
Indeed. This is a dance that we know the steps to.
The way continuity remain is still fighting the referendum is very annoying.
I saw a report on the news earlier about Justin King (ex-Sainsbury's) saying Brexit will mean higher food coasts... I thought we went over all that before the referendum.
It’ll all be made up our the £350m...... won’t it?
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
Mr. Gin, her own damned fault. She was complacent, didn't attack Corbyn's policies, couldn't defend her own, had a financially and emotionally sensitive major policy shoved in at the last moment, disregarding protests about it.
Hubris and nemesis came hurtling May's way.
Her biggest failing to my mind was utterly failing since she became last June to spell out the consequences of what Brexit might mean and what compromises would be needed and why.
A grown up conversation with the country is what leadership means and might also have earned her some goodwill with other leaders in the EU.
My feeling is that some of what enervates them is not just the decision itself but the sheer incompetence, incoherence and lack of preparation exhibited by Britain in the last year.
Making a decision that some don't like is one thing. Implementing it in a cack-handed way is quite another thing.
What odds will you give me that none of those three options described occur? (The UK stays in the EU for the indefinite future, the UK crashes out without a deal, the UK agrees a deal with free movement of labour).
I already have a large bet with SeanT that we will still be in the EU at the end of 2019.
That's a very different bet. This would cover you for two other options, but not the case of a delayed but still specified Brexit.
They don't pay for themselves. True, and it is how they are payed for that is the interesting bit.
That three word dismissal, magic money tree, ignores the fact that money being a token, there is absolutely a money tree. It is just not magic, using it has consequences, some beneficial, some not so and it is true you cannot create value just by creating money..
Using money supply was fairly standard government economics in increasingly prosperous Western nations for decades. There is no automatic reason for any country using it judiciously to become Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany or Venezuela. (Whether Corbyn would be judicious, I leave to one side).
Another Tory impoverishment of the debate to suggest monetarism, though orthodox now, is somehow the only possible economics. It's nonsense, but the public - whose own money is inelastic - don't get that.
Are you proposing that government prints money to pay for its spending?
It could be called 'Quantitative Easing'.
No, QE is the buying of existing bonds, not the creation of new debt to finance spending.
What happens if the government sold those bonds ? The buyer will pay the government money for them, right ?
So the government got money out of nothing which it can spend. So, what's the difference ?
M0 to M4 for a start, plus the commitment to buy back said bonds.
That is true for any bonds. However, when the government or its agent [ BoE ] buys bonds which had already been issued using QE, and then sells it again, the proceeds of the second sale is, in effect, "free".
The commitment to buy back remains, but here the government sold it twice.
And owes it twice. The bill comes due.
(Which isn't even to go into the fact that QE stays in the M4 definition of money (c. £2,000 billion in the UK at the moment, so £100bn here is about 5% increase in money supply), while if monetised as you suggest, it can migrate straight towards M0 (c.£80 billion in the UK at the moment, so £100bn here more than doubles the money supply).
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
Unfortunately for her, she is - what was the phrase? - a "bloody difficult woman", so I suspect she will just be left to suffer from the dragons she has called into being.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
Unfortunately for her, she is - what was the phrase? - a "bloody difficult woman", so I suspect she will just be left to suffer from the dragons she has called into being.
Mr. Gin, her own damned fault. She was complacent, didn't attack Corbyn's policies, couldn't defend her own, had a financially and emotionally sensitive major policy shoved in at the last moment, disregarding protests about it.
Hubris and nemesis came hurtling May's way.
Her biggest failing to my mind was utterly failing since she became last June to spell out the consequences of what Brexit might mean and what compromises would be needed and why.
A grown up conversation with the country is what leadership means and might also have earned her some goodwill with other leaders in the EU.
My feeling is that some of what enervates them is not just the decision itself but the sheer incompetence, incoherence and lack of preparation exhibited by Britain in the last year.
Making a decision that some don't like is one thing. Implementing it in a cack-handed way is quite another thing.
I think this is right (not least as it accord with my own feelings...).
Accepting a Brexit I don't want, but the majority voted for, is one thing - watching our government make a complete horlicks of it quite another.
Their utter inability even to make a case for anything at all is just mystifying. How on earth did this woman become Prime Minister when so clearly deficient in the political arts ?
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
According the The Guardian Corbyns response was to tell her she should read the Labour manifesto if her government running out of ideas!
I’m beginning to wonder if the GE was really such a bad idea. It’s exposed her as out of her depth and given enough seats and confidence to the Opposition to enable them to be positive,
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sac.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne delivered debt, no infrastructure, a split voter base and uni fees
May is simply the poor sap left holding a cold shit sandwich while catbert publishes cartoons laughing at the mess he made
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sac.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne delivered debt, no infrastructure, a split voter base and uni fees
May is simply the poor sap left holding a cold shit sandwich while catbert publishes cartoons laughing at the mess he made
I got away with praising Ken Clarke on this thread earlier but I knew praising Osborne as well was pushing my luck!
I think we should just agree to disagree on this one Alan.
In the early 80s it was not uncommon in usage - when someone using it was hauled up by an American manager the reaction was a bit 'eh'? But then again we had Golly on Robinson's Jam and my favourite childhood record was 'Black Sambo'.....
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
According the The Guardian Corbyns response was to tell her she should read the Labour manifesto if her government running out of ideas!
I’m beginning to wonder if the GE was really such a bad idea. It’s exposed her as out of her depth and given enough seats and confidence to the Opposition to enable them to be positive,
This being the same Corbyn who has copied May's Brexit plans almost 100%?
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Would have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a wer promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sac.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne delivered debt, no infrastructure, a split voter base and uni fees
May is simply the poor sap left holding a cold shit sandwich while catbert publishes cartoons laughing at the mess he made
I got away with praising Ken Clarke on this thread earlier but I knew praising Osborne as well was pushing my luck!
I think we should just agree to disagree on this one Alan.
Actually I dont have a problem with Ken Clarke either, he was a good CoE
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
When you look at what has happened since I seriously regret that Cameron did not keep his promise and stay on. His replacement is well short of the mark and the proposed replacements for her don't look any better.
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
In the early 80s it was not uncommon in usage - when someone using it was hauled up by an American manager the reaction was a bit 'eh'? But then again we had Golly on Robinson's Jam and my favourite childhood record was 'Black Sambo'.....
I've heard it used quite frequently, albeit, outside London.
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
According the The Guardian Corbyns response was to tell her she should read the Labour manifesto if her government running out of ideas!
I’m beginning to wonder if the GE was really such a bad idea. It’s exposed her as out of her depth and given enough seats and confidence to the Opposition to enable them to be positive,
Corbyn won't play ball and I don't think that will go down well with the electorate at large. The swing voters are by definition less partisan than the committed.
It depends which part of my comments you are referring to, Mr Dancer.... But certainly Mrs May is a woman who is totally out of her depth and she is desperate for some knight in shining armour to come along and rescue her. Unfortunately, there are no gentlemen left in the Conservative Party - they are all cheats and liars - so she turns in her moment of need to Mr Corbyn.
According the The Guardian Corbyns response was to tell her she should read the Labour manifesto if her government running out of ideas!
I’m beginning to wonder if the GE was really such a bad idea. It’s exposed her as out of her depth and given enough seats and confidence to the Opposition to enable them to be positive,
This being the same Corbyn who has copied May's Brexit plans almost 100%?
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Would have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
Would Leadsom have won 42%? No
We wouldn't have had an election so it wouldn't have come into it...
The headline cost of public sector wages increases is a lot higher that the real cost to the government. Give a basic rate taxer pay in the public service a £1,000 pay rise and £200 comes back in tax, £120 in Employees NI and £138 in Employer NI. So that's almost halved the cost. Take into account that some of what is left will be spent on VATable goods and services I'd guess more than half of what is spent comes straight back in to the government coffers.
Not quite. To give a BRT employee £1,000 costs £1,138 including employer NI, plus a hypothetical amount in respect of that employee's unfunded future pension. Of this sum, the employee sees £680 now and some of the rest on retirement.
The state definitely gets the missing £458 out of private sector employees, but the £458 from the public sector employee never existed and never does. The entirety of the £680 s/he keeps comes from the private sector's taxes. The tax contribution of private earners is real, whereas that of public sector workers is largely notional.
If it were otherwise, the state could easily solve its deficit problem. It could just pay all public sector workers £100,000 a year, with a special tax rate for them of 70%. This would mean they all kept £30k a year, while of the £100,000, the state would get back £70,000. This it could then spend on schoolzanospitals.
With 5.4 million public sector employees on £100,000 each, of which £70k went back to the state, we'd have a budget surplus of over a third of a trillion pounds a year.
Why we have not done this before I cannot imagine, unless public sector PAYE deductions are constructively imaginary.
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
When you look at what has happened since I seriously regret that Cameron did not keep his promise and stay on. His replacement is well short of the mark and the proposed replacements for her don't look any better.
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
basically he ran away
I suspect had he stayed, we would have received a revised offer from the EU and a second referendum would have approved it
Merkel's problem is she needed someone sympathetic to negotiate with and there wasnt anyone
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able iew.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
When you look at what has happened since I seriously regret that Cameron did not keep his promise and stay on. His replacement is well short of the mark and the proposed replacements for her don't look any better.
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
Why should he? Cameron backed Remain and spent weeks warning of the dire consequences of a Leave vote so of course he could not then implement that Leave vote. While he would have avoided unpopular policies like the dementia tax and ending the triple lock he would also not have won the former UKIP voters May did and Corbyn would still have run an anti austerity and pro public sector pay rise campaign against him and Osborne
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Would have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
Would Leadsom have won 42%? No
We wouldn't have had an election so it wouldn't have come into it...
Bo it would have beem hard Brexit no questions asked and no need to bother negotiating with the EU
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
Good point. To labour things a bit it is of variable depth, mainly shallow.
I'd be surprised if Heidi Allen does not switch parties at some point.
Heidi Allen is an extremely high defection risk, IMHO. The attention seeking Sarah Wollaston is another. They are Emma Nicholson, all over again.
Funnily enough, I don't think the likes of Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan (and particularly Ken Clarke) ever would because they see themselves as loyal Conservatives.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
We heard a lot of that on here a little over a month ago, and where did that delusion get the PB Tories?
I'd be surprised if Heidi Allen does not switch parties at some point.
Heidi Allen is an extremely high defection risk, IMHO. The attention seeking Sarah Wollaston is another. They are Emma Nicholson, all over again.
Funnily enough, I don't think the likes of Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan (and particularly Ken Clarke) ever would because they see themselves as loyal Conservatives.
Emma Nicholson has re-defected back to the Tories.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
When you look at what has happened since I seriously regret that Cameron did not keep his promise and stay on. His replacement is well short of the mark and the proposed replacements for her don't look any better.
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
basically he ran away
I suspect had he stayed, we would have received a revised offer from the EU and a second referendum would have approved it
Merkel's problem is she needed someone sympathetic to negotiate with and there wasnt anyone
I don't think so. The EU would have worried it would have encouraged everyone else to have referendums.
You only get the second offers on the way in (to further integration) not on the way out.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
I don't think so. But now she is held hostage by the Brexit fanatics and has very little room for manoeuvre. She needs Corbyn now to deliver a soft Brexit. I'm not optimistic that that will go well.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
o Corbyn.
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able iew.
Osborne also failed to sort out the deficit by 2015 as he originally promised and while he ran the campaign in 2010 it was Lyndon Crosby who ran the campaign in 2015. Given it was he and Cameron who pushed for the EU referendum they cannot complain too much that they lost office once they failed to win it
When you look at what has happened since I seriously regret that Cameron did not keep his promise and stay on. His replacement is well short of the mark and the proposed replacements for her don't look any better.
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
Why should he? Cameron backed Remain and spent weeks warning of the dire consequences of a Leave vote so of course he could not then implement that Leave vote. While he would have avoided unpopular policies like the dementia tax and ending the triple lock he would also not have won the former UKIP voters May did and Corbyn would still have run an anti austerity and pro public sector pay rise campaign against him and Osborne
I think everyone accepts there will be dire consequences of Brexit. Project Fear simply played fast and loose with the timings.
Now of course economic self harm might easily be a price worth paying for you but dire consequences there will be.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
I don't think so. But now she is held hostage by the Brexit fanatics and has very little room for manoeuvre. She needs Corbyn now to deliver a soft Brexit. I'm not optimistic that that will go well.
The big majority to ward off the Euroloons line was scoffed at in No.10.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
I think a lot of it is down to the loss of confidence the Conservatives now have a result of losing their majority, and the resulting parliamentary arithmetic, to be honest.
Because May is a lame duck, and there is no prospect of a clear, coherent programme holding water with whomever replaced her due to the numbers, discipline has broken down, and all the Tory egos (which are many and legion) are raging all over the place.
They can't help themselves. So we will probably repeat all the experiences of the 1992-1997 parliament, now.
I'd be surprised if Heidi Allen does not switch parties at some point.
Heidi Allen is an extremely high defection risk, IMHO. The attention seeking Sarah Wollaston is another. They are Emma Nicholson, all over again.
Funnily enough, I don't think the likes of Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan (and particularly Ken Clarke) ever would because they see themselves as loyal Conservatives.
Emma Nicholson has re-defected back to the Tories.
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
We heard a lot of that on here a little over a month ago, and where did that delusion get the PB Tories?
You think it's a delusion? Bless.
Wait until Corbyn/McDonnell take office. We'll talk again then.
Just a week and a half before they’re scheduled to perform at Tel Aviv’s Yarkon Park, English rock band Radiohead continued to battle the anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement. During the band’s Friday night concert at the TRNSMT Festival in Glasgow, Scotland, several activists raised Palestinian flags as well as a “Radiohead: #canceltelaviv” sign, and held demonstrations outside the venue, causing lead singer Thom Yorke to respond.
According to Consequence of Sound, prior to the band’s performance of “Myxomatosis,” Yorke reportedly exclaimed, “Some f#cking people!” while staring out into the crowd. He was also caught giving the middle finger to the flag wavers.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
A month ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Now I'm not so sure. Speaking as a middle-class southerner, I think it's easy to forget just how toxic the Tories still are in that part of the world. I remember someone posting a link to that focus group before the election showing just how hard it was for people in that demographic to vote Tory.
The Labour brand has proven surprisingly resilient and Corbyn hasn't gone down nearly as badly as we all assumed he would. I think that's because GE2017 turned out to be much more the 'austerity' election than the 'Brexit' election, particularly for that segment of voters. If Corbyn's 'I will end austerity, free puppies for all' narrative proves stronger than the Eurosceptic 'you must vote Conservative to protect Brexit' narrative, Corbyn could retain the traditional working class vote and pile on the middle class remainers, leading him to victory.
I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's a theory I don't fancy testing.
I'd be surprised if Heidi Allen does not switch parties at some point.
Heidi Allen is an extremely high defection risk, IMHO. The attention seeking Sarah Wollaston is another. They are Emma Nicholson, all over again.
Funnily enough, I don't think the likes of Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan (and particularly Ken Clarke) ever would because they see themselves as loyal Conservatives.
Emma Nicholson has re-defected back to the Tories.
I know, last September, under Theresa May! Very funny.
But, the point stands. Big egos will want to make big statements about themselves, not hang together with the team.
Tory party is chock full of big egos - ergo, I expect infighting and defections. Both of which will contribute to retoxification.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
I don't think so. But now she is held hostage by the Brexit fanatics and has very little room for manoeuvre. She needs Corbyn now to deliver a soft Brexit. I'm not optimistic that that will go well.
The big majority to ward off the Euroloons line was scoffed at in No.10.
This was scoffed at a time when UKIP voters were thought to be the answer? Quelle surprise, as our European friends would say.
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I think it's very likely it could happen.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
We heard a lot of that on here a little over a month ago, and where did that delusion get the PB Tories?
You think it's a delusion? Bless.
Wait until Corbyn/McDonnell take office. We'll talk again then.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
I think a lot of it is down to the loss of confidence the Conservatives now have a result of losing their majority, and the resulting parliamentary arithmetic, to be honest.
Because May is a lame duck, and there is no prospect of a clear, coherent programme holding water with whomever replaced her due to the numbers, discipline has broken down, and all the Tory egos (which are many and legion) are raging all over the place.
They can't help themselves. So we will probably repeat all the experiences of the 1992-1997 parliament, now.
It's not looking good is it? Today we seem to have Heidi Allen telling the government what to do. Lord knows who it will be tomorrow.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
I think both you and DavidL are off on this, actually. May likes to do her own thing in her own time, without challenge or scrutiny. It's how she works.
A large majority was for that. It might have been hard, soft, or something in the middle, but she'd want to make her decisions, her compromises and her calls and we'd have been presented with what she'd agreed on our behalf when she was damn good and ready.
Voters snuffed that out, alongside with the manifesto, and so now she can't.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On
I bet she wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat going over that crappy manifesto...
She bloody well should. At a juncture like this a weak government was the last thing we needed. Avoiding debating the economy because you want to get rid of your Chancellor was not particularly inspired either. She is seriously over promoted I'm afraid.
Andrea Leasom:
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Wouldn't have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
I think all those points could be true without reaching the conclusion you do.
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
The managerial skill and experience that has seen his deficit target be moved back a decade?
Yes. It's going to get moved back more anyway. A weak minority government will not be able to resist the challenges to the wage cap, the screams for infrastructure and housing and the other pressures that will come from Brexit whenever a loser is identified.
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
I think a lot of it is down to the loss of confidence the Conservatives now have a result of losing their majority, and the resulting parliamentary arithmetic, to be honest.
Because May is a lame duck, and there is no prospect of a clear, coherent programme holding water with whomever replaced her due to the numbers, discipline has broken down, and all the Tory egos (which are many and legion) are raging all over the place.
They can't help themselves. So we will probably repeat all the experiences of the 1992-1997 parliament, now.
It's not looking good is it? Today we seem to have Heidi Allen telling the government what to do. Lord knows who it will be tomorrow.
Yes, but Heidi Allen has been inside the tent pissing all over it since the day she was elected in GE2015.
Fortunately, there will be no Leave in 2019 or in any year in the near future.
Depends where you live I suppose.
For Roger in his South of France chateau, or Tyson in his Tuscan villa, there certainly won't be.
For us in the UK there will be.
The last sentence proves that you have a sense of humour.
More commonly known as a sense of reality.
TWBNB = There Will Be No Brexit
I think you're right. Listening to the World at One Norman Smith opined that if Corbyn stuck to his word May might be OK. He said the danger would come when one of the many amendments which will be tabled looked like it could defeat the government he would do an immediate volte face in which case she could be in trouble.
Literally no one other than Vince Cable and you 2 think it won't happen. Presumably every Tory and Labour MP are the deluded ones and the 2 frothing remainers off the internet forum have the inside track on Brexit
I Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
Corbyn's support is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
We heard a lot of that on here a little over a month ago, and where did that delusion get the PB Tories?
You think it's a delusion? Bless.
Wait until Corbyn/McDonnell take office. We'll talk again then.
Won't you have emigrated by then?
I might, or have committed suicide. Everything is going wrong right now. Everything.
Afternoon all: I have largely taken a break from PB for various personal reasons.
Just wanted to say three things:-
1. Best wishes to @RichardTyndall and @OldKingCole over their health issues. I hope they get resolved speedily and in the best possible way.
2. Ken Clarke provided a really good account the other day on Newsnight about how the government should handle the pay cap issue. A great pity there are not more people of his quality at the top of politics at present.
3. I increasingly wonder whether Brexit will happen. The government seems utterly clueless. So does the Opposition. There seems to be no good or even broadly sensible outcome. What I don't know is how we avoid a car crash while not trashing the people's belief in democracy by ignoring their vote. I wish I did.
Welcome back. It is a tragedy that Ken Clarke never made it to PM.
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
Her plan was always hard Brexit. A large majority would have allowed her to deliver it.
I think both you and DavidL are off on this, actually. May likes to do her own thing in her own time, without challenge or scrutiny. It's how she works.
A large majority was for that. It might have been hard, soft, or something in the middle, but she'd want to make her decisions, her compromises and her calls and we'd have been presented with what she'd agreed on our behalf when she was damn good and ready.
Voters snuffed that out, alongside with the manifesto, and so now she can't.
I don't disagree with that. I just think that those decisions would have involved sensible economic compromises which are now going to be much more difficult.
It seems to me we only have two options - Hard Brexit with the economic chaos that will entail , or No Brexit.
Pursuing a 'middle course' or so called 'soft brexit' will inevitably end up with people realising we'd be getting the status quo, minus a political seat at the table. Therefore we'd be better off cancelling the whole endeavour.
If anyone can think of another realistic scenario let me know, but I'm struggling to think of one.
I don't actually think May's political woes make one iota of difference to this, with a majority of 150 she'd still be facing the same choice.
I believe Corbyn's a leaver at heart, but he'd rather be PM in the EU than LOTO out. If he sees the opportunity to defeat the government and force an election some time within the next two years, he will. The Tories are in disarray, May is discredited and the momentum (ho-hum) is all on Labour's side.
Corbyn wants power. It's within his grasp. If all he has to do is perform an expedient volte-face, why wouldn't he?
If Corbyn abandons Brexit and backs uncontrolled free movement to stay in the single market, bang goes much if the working class Labour vote in the north and midlands
A month ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Now I'm not so sure. Speaking as a middle-class southerner, I think it's easy to forget just how toxic the Tories still are in that part of the world. I remember someone posting a link to that focus group before the election showing just how hard it was for people in that demographic to vote Tory.
The Labour brand has proven surprisingly resilient and Corbyn hasn't gone down nearly as badly as we all assumed he would. I think that's because GE2017 turned out to be much more the 'austerity' election than the 'Brexit' election, particularly for that segment of voters. If Corbyn's 'I will end austerity, free puppies for all' narrative proves stronger than the Eurosceptic 'you must vote Conservative to protect Brexit' narrative, Corbyn could retain the traditional working class vote and pile on the middle class remainers, leading him to victory.
I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's a theory I don't fancy testing.
This source is suspect in some ways but it makes an interesting observation from a series of interviews on Sunderland. It claims people there voted Leave substantially against Cameron and his ilk. They are very disillusioned with the aftermath.
It seems to me we only have two options - Hard Brexit with the economic chaos that will entail , or No Brexit.
Pursuing a 'middle course' or so called 'soft brexit' will inevitably end up with people realising we'd be getting the status quo, minus a political seat at the table. Therefore we'd be better off cancelling the whole endeavour.
If anyone can think of another realistic scenario let me know, but I'm struggling to think of one.
I don't actually think May's political woes make one iota of difference to this, with a majority of 150 she'd still be facing the same choice.
Proper Brexit is the option. And the political freedom and economic prosperity that will follow.
I agree with you that Mongrel Brexit will satisfy nobody.
It seems to me we only have two options - Hard Brexit with the economic chaos that will entail , or No Brexit.
Pursuing a 'middle course' or so called 'soft brexit' will inevitably end up with people realising we'd be getting the status quo, minus a political seat at the table. Therefore we'd be better off cancelling the whole endeavour.
If anyone can think of another realistic scenario let me know, but I'm struggling to think of one.
I don't actually think May's political woes make one iota of difference to this, with a majority of 150 she'd still be facing the same choice.
I'm thinking about doing a thread on the UK rejoining the EU (Euro, Schengen, and EU Army et al) in the next decade, I'm citing the Newfoundland precedent.
Newfoundland was a British dominion from 1907 to 1949. The dominion was situated in northeastern North America along the Atlantic coast and comprised the island of Newfoundland and Labrador on the continental mainland. Before attaining dominion status, Newfoundland was a British colony, self-governing from 1855.
Newfoundland was one of the original "dominions" within the meaning of the Statute of Westminster of 1931 and accordingly enjoyed a constitutional status equivalent to the other dominions at the time. In 1934, Newfoundland became the only dominion to give up its self-governing status, ending 79 years of self-government.[2]
It seems to me we only have two options - Hard Brexit with the economic chaos that will entail , or No Brexit.
Pursuing a 'middle course' or so called 'soft brexit' will inevitably end up with people realising we'd be getting the status quo, minus a political seat at the table. Therefore we'd be better off cancelling the whole endeavour.
If anyone can think of another realistic scenario let me know, but I'm struggling to think of one.
I don't actually think May's political woes make one iota of difference to this, with a majority of 150 she'd still be facing the same choice.
The realistic scenario is that we agree a trade deal with the EU that is somewhere between the access Korea/Canada has and single market membership. We get to limit immigration and we get equivalence for our financial services but we have to pay a big one-off bill. A few sectors hit some short term economic trouble, but they begin growing again within the year. Remainers claim its the end of the world and play up every bit of bad news. UKIP yell betrayal because we maintain co-operation in some areas. Most people think it actually seems like a reasonable compromise. Our economy returns to growth and we start signing trade deals with other nations. People get on with their lives.
Labour economics. Give the public sector a pay rise and the money they spend will pay for the pay rise. So it costs the treasury almost nothing!
Why only restrict to 1% or 2%? If it costs virtually nothing, why not 100% Or a 1000% ? Why not a million percent pay rise?
Or is it only on these fantasy figures that the Chavenomics become visible for the charade they are?
Most public sector workers have had a real terms pay cut in the last 7 years - therefore their disposable incomes have been squeezed which has a knock on effect to the rest of the economy. That's not 'chavenomics', it's real life.
Comments
On Brexit I think May had a plan but that plan was dependent on the large majority she thought she was going to get. That would have allowed her to disregard the nutters on both wings of this argument. Losing her majority instead has left her all at sea and I don't think she can see how the compromises needed can be delivered. Hence her ill judged pleas to Corbyn.
How can the government "back down" on something that isn't in their control?
Once we've left we'll obviously re-join under an associate relationship like the Swiss have... But that would've happened anyway.
Hubris and nemesis came hurtling May's way.
I saw a report on the news earlier about Justin King (ex-Sainsbury's) saying Brexit will mean higher food coasts... I thought we went over all that before the referendum.
And yet, lament thy torments not, for there* is but one door away agony sublime.
Edited extra bit: changed from their*. *sighs* I blame distraction. And austerity. And leaving the EU. And inequality.
Seems to be a completely manufactured row about nothing to me...
1. Wouldn't have sacked Osborne and sent him out the back door.
2. Would have guaranteed EU citizens rights immediately.
3. Wouldn't have called an early general election.
Mrs Leadsom would have been better than Theresa May!!!
oh, wait...
Boy, could this government do with some of Osborne's managerial skill and experience now.
A grown up conversation with the country is what leadership means and might also have earned her some goodwill with other leaders in the EU.
My feeling is that some of what enervates them is not just the decision itself but the sheer incompetence, incoherence and lack of preparation exhibited by Britain in the last year.
Making a decision that some don't like is one thing. Implementing it in a cack-handed way is quite another thing.
Predictable consequence on Twitter.
The bill comes due.
(Which isn't even to go into the fact that QE stays in the M4 definition of money (c. £2,000 billion in the UK at the moment, so £100bn here is about 5% increase in money supply), while if monetised as you suggest, it can migrate straight towards M0 (c.£80 billion in the UK at the moment, so £100bn here more than doubles the money supply).
Which has the obvious dangers and issues.
Unfortunately for her, she is - what was the phrase? - a "bloody difficult woman", so I suspect she will just be left to suffer from the dragons she has called into being.
Does anybody at all feel sorry for her?
But, she has plainly been overpromoted.
BBC News - Birmingham pub bombings: IRA suspect Hayes issues apology http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40553803
https://twitter.com/breezeblast/status/884441203193683968
Accepting a Brexit I don't want, but the majority voted for, is one thing - watching our government make a complete horlicks of it quite another.
Their utter inability even to make a case for anything at all is just mystifying. How on earth did this woman become Prime Minister when so clearly deficient in the political arts ?
Osborne delivered growth, employment and a majority. He also made the government sound coherent 90% of the time, something the present government seems incapable of for an entire interview.
I’m beginning to wonder if the GE was really such a bad idea. It’s exposed her as out of her depth and given enough seats and confidence to the Opposition to enable them to be positive,
May is simply the poor sap left holding a cold shit sandwich while catbert publishes cartoons laughing at the mess he made
I think we should just agree to disagree on this one Alan.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/884446615033049088
In the early 80s it was not uncommon in usage - when someone using it was hauled up by an American manager the reaction was a bit 'eh'? But then again we had Golly on Robinson's Jam and my favourite childhood record was 'Black Sambo'.....
Osborne however .........
At the time it seemed inevitable and the right thing to do but boy have we got in a mess since. And today's little furore shows his task of detoxifying the Tory party had some way to go.
The state definitely gets the missing £458 out of private sector employees, but the £458 from the public sector employee never existed and never does. The entirety of the £680 s/he keeps comes from the private sector's taxes. The tax contribution of private earners is real, whereas that of public sector workers is largely notional.
If it were otherwise, the state could easily solve its deficit problem. It could just pay all public sector workers £100,000 a year, with a special tax rate for them of 70%. This would mean they all kept £30k a year, while of the £100,000, the state would get back £70,000. This it could then spend on schoolzanospitals.
With 5.4 million public sector employees on £100,000 each, of which £70k went back to the state, we'd have a budget surplus of over a third of a trillion pounds a year.
Why we have not done this before I cannot imagine, unless public sector PAYE deductions are constructively imaginary.
If he (or more accurately, McDonnell) whacks on land taxes and income taxes that threaten the homes of middle-class property owners, and I think he would, his support there would quickly melt away too.
I suspect had he stayed, we would have received a revised offer from the EU and a second referendum would have approved it
Merkel's problem is she needed someone sympathetic to negotiate with and there wasnt anyone
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/10/german-mep-demands-brexit-ends-hated-eu-marmalade-law/
https://twitter.com/JeremyWarnerUK/status/884452200507944961
Funnily enough, I don't think the likes of Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan (and particularly Ken Clarke) ever would because they see themselves as loyal Conservatives.
You only get the second offers on the way in (to further integration) not on the way out.
Now of course economic self harm might easily be a price worth paying for you but dire consequences there will be.
Because May is a lame duck, and there is no prospect of a clear, coherent programme holding water with whomever replaced her due to the numbers, discipline has broken down, and all the Tory egos (which are many and legion) are raging all over the place.
They can't help themselves. So we will probably repeat all the experiences of the 1992-1997 parliament, now.
Wait until Corbyn/McDonnell take office. We'll talk again then.
Just a week and a half before they’re scheduled to perform at Tel Aviv’s Yarkon Park, English rock band Radiohead continued to battle the anti-Israel Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement. During the band’s Friday night concert at the TRNSMT Festival in Glasgow, Scotland, several activists raised Palestinian flags as well as a “Radiohead: #canceltelaviv” sign, and held demonstrations outside the venue, causing lead singer Thom Yorke to respond.
According to Consequence of Sound, prior to the band’s performance of “Myxomatosis,” Yorke reportedly exclaimed, “Some f#cking people!” while staring out into the crowd. He was also caught giving the middle finger to the flag wavers.
http://www.jpost.com/BDS-THREAT/Radioheads-Yorke-gives-BDS-supporters-the-finger-during-Glasgow-concert-499210
The Labour brand has proven surprisingly resilient and Corbyn hasn't gone down nearly as badly as we all assumed he would. I think that's because GE2017 turned out to be much more the 'austerity' election than the 'Brexit' election, particularly for that segment of voters. If Corbyn's 'I will end austerity, free puppies for all' narrative proves stronger than the Eurosceptic 'you must vote Conservative to protect Brexit' narrative, Corbyn could retain the traditional working class vote and pile on the middle class remainers, leading him to victory.
I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's a theory I don't fancy testing.
But, the point stands. Big egos will want to make big statements about themselves, not hang together with the team.
Tory party is chock full of big egos - ergo, I expect infighting and defections. Both of which will contribute to retoxification.
They can't help themselves.
A large majority was for that. It might have been hard, soft, or something in the middle, but she'd want to make her decisions, her compromises and her calls and we'd have been presented with what she'd agreed on our behalf when she was damn good and ready.
Voters snuffed that out, alongside with the manifesto, and so now she can't.
I am very, very depressed.
Have I missed much?
It seems to me we only have two options - Hard Brexit with the economic chaos that will entail , or No Brexit.
Pursuing a 'middle course' or so called 'soft brexit' will inevitably end up with people realising we'd be getting the status quo, minus a political seat at the table. Therefore we'd be better off cancelling the whole endeavour.
If anyone can think of another realistic scenario let me know, but I'm struggling to think of one.
I don't actually think May's political woes make one iota of difference to this, with a majority of 150 she'd still be facing the same choice.
Give the public sector a pay rise and the money they spend will pay for the pay rise. So it costs the treasury almost nothing!
Why only restrict to 1% or 2%?
If it costs virtually nothing, why not 100% Or a 1000% ?
Why not a million percent pay rise?
Or is it only on these fantasy figures that the Chavenomics become visible for the charade they are?
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sunderland-anger-in-brexit-city-is-against-austerity-not-europe-1-5091095
I agree with you that Mongrel Brexit will satisfy nobody.
Newfoundland was a British dominion from 1907 to 1949. The dominion was situated in northeastern North America along the Atlantic coast and comprised the island of Newfoundland and Labrador on the continental mainland. Before attaining dominion status, Newfoundland was a British colony, self-governing from 1855.
Newfoundland was one of the original "dominions" within the meaning of the Statute of Westminster of 1931 and accordingly enjoyed a constitutional status equivalent to the other dominions at the time. In 1934, Newfoundland became the only dominion to give up its self-governing status, ending 79 years of self-government.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_of_Newfoundland
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/10/president-trump-enemies-list-240344