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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov has the LDs with the fewest proportion of supporters

SystemSystem Posts: 12,058
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov has the LDs with the fewest proportion of supporters considering themselves to be working class

Fascinating table from YouGov on what social class people say theybelong to linked to their voting intention twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/st…

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Comments

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    Has that makeup changed markedly since the lib dems fortunes have *ahem* turned less than optimal from 2010?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    Once again the poor, belittled upper class lose out I see ;)

    Besides, haven't yougov heard, we've got seven different classes now! (and no, subdividing them doesn't count)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    So LDs are left wing, but snobs who don't want to mix with the working classes of Labour?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    kle4 said:

    Once again the poor, belittled upper class lose out I see ;)

    Besides, haven't yougov heard, we've got seven different classes now! (and no, subdividing them doesn't count)

    The same polling shows more LDs considering themselves to be "elite" than supporters of any other party.

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Time to put Falkirk CLP under special measures?
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/labour-in-meltdown-over-selection-row.20726561

    or calling Eric to head-butt all of them?

    And please, Scottish papers, save space stopping to report what the SNP and SLAB spokepersons say at the end of each paper. It's just the useless line they repeat everytime. I can imagine it without having the need to read it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    And to think, the Shadow Cabinet is drawn almost exclusively from the 2% of Labour who see themselves as 'Upper Middle Class'....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Mick_Pork said:

    Has that makeup changed markedly since the lib dems fortunes have *ahem* turned less than optimal from 2010?

    Interestingly there has been a marked in LDs considering themselve "working class" since GE2010. Then it was 22% now it's 13%.

    That, I'm told, fits in with the Eastleigh experience where the yellows had a real stuggle in the ex-council estate areas which had previous tactically voted for Huhne against the Tory.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT:

    Alex Salmond speech from Princeton:

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/PrincetonUniversity2013

    Good on Adam Smith et al, tho he does duck the question of why on devolved matters like health and education are still leading to unequal outcomes (nowt tae dae wi me!) and simply has a pop at the 'bedroom tax'....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Huhne seems to be enjoying hs spell of porridge.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22057859
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037

    kle4 said:

    Once again the poor, belittled upper class lose out I see ;)

    Besides, haven't yougov heard, we've got seven different classes now! (and no, subdividing them doesn't count)

    The same polling shows more LDs considering themselves to be "elite" than supporters of any other party.

    Curious. I imagine they would say they are 'Elite without being elitist'. Which comes to mind for me as it is my university's current motto and I also voted LD in 2010 (and in the Euros), so I guess I fit that profile.

    I would guess Labour and Con would use that as excusing why the leadership presents as all being elite though.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,758

    Mick_Pork said:

    Has that makeup changed markedly since the lib dems fortunes have *ahem* turned less than optimal from 2010?

    Interestingly there has been a marked in LDs considering themselve "working class" since GE2010. Then it was 22% now it's 13%.

    That, I'm told, fits in with the Eastleigh experience where the yellows had a real stuggle in the ex-council estate areas which had previous tactically voted for Huhne against the Tory.


    Those people would probably be the lib dem to ukip swoppers wouldn't they.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    It would be interesting to see what the actual class is compared to how the voters see themselves. I suspect the blues are more likely to place themselves higher up the scale than they are and the reds more likely to downplay their wealth. Obviously Ed Miliband is working class.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    FLT:
    @Plato
    Zombies leave me cold. Hehe! The only genuine scary movie that I have ever seen was a mid 1940's film called Dragonwyck, a dark and forbidding place with eerie and spooky mood music. Mind you I was 12 at the time. :-)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Those people would probably be the lib dem to ukip swoppers wouldn't they.

    UKIP certainly has the highest proportion of:

    'Traditional Working Class' (BBC 7 categories):
    Con: 24
    Lab: 33
    LibDem: 19
    UKIP: 42

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,037
    edited April 2013

    It would be interesting to see what the actual class is compared to how the voters see themselves. I suspect the blues are more likely to place themselves higher up the scale than they are and the reds more likely to downplay their wealth. Obviously Ed Miliband is working class.

    Now now, although Labour do all they can to imply they are working class, even when they are not, Ed M has actually admitted (sensibly) in the past that he personally is clearly not.

    "He admitted to Nick Robinson that, as the son of a well-off academic, he had not experienced money worries himself.

    "I come from a relatively privileged background. I am not going to pretend that I grew up in poverty," he said."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11842711

    Although that article contains a quite which is perfectly true, but which sticks in the mind because Labour tactics generally pretend it is not with the Tories, or cannot apply to them (Tory smears are usually on different subjects, eg being in the pockets of unions).

    "He added he was "not part of the squeezed middle" but he said he could "listen to and understand" voters' aspirations and "make a difference to the lives"."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Where have the Lib Dems gone - VI (vs 2010 vote)

    Precariat (Precarious Proletariate): 3 (=)
    Emergent Service Worker: 6 (-7)
    Trad working Class: 19 (-3)
    New affluent: 13 (=)
    Technical Middle: 15 (+1)
    Established Middle: 22 (+6)
    Elite: 3 (+1)

    Distinct march upmarket.....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    A very good article in the Mail (yes really) on the realities of the benefits debate:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2305198/The-mutinous-anger-Labour-voters-benefit-scroungers-A-disturbing-dispatch-Manchester-estate.html

    All the party leaders could benefit enormously from reading it and considering it very carefully.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    kle4 said:

    It would be interesting to see what the actual class is compared to how the voters see themselves. I suspect the blues are more likely to place themselves higher up the scale than they are and the reds more likely to downplay their wealth. Obviously Ed Miliband is working class.

    Now now, although Labour do all they can to imply they are working class, even when they are not, Ed M has actually admitted (sensibly) in the past that he personally is clearly not.

    "He admitted to Nick Robinson that, as the son of a well-off academic, he had not experienced money worries himself.

    "I come from a relatively privileged background. I am not going to pretend that I grew up in poverty," he said."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11842711

    Although that article contains a quite which is perfectly true, but which sticks in the mind because Labour tactics generally pretend it is not with the Tories, or cannot apply to them (Tory smears are usually on different subjects, eg being in the pockets of unions).

    "He added he was "not part of the squeezed middle" but he said he could "listen to and understand" voters' aspirations and "make a difference to the lives"."
    Now, now Mr Kle4, Carl reliably informed us on that last thread that current disputes are all about Class War. Obviously Ed must be working class as is Lady Harriet.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Those people would probably be the lib dem to ukip swoppers wouldn't they.

    UKIP certainly has the highest proportion of:

    'Traditional Working Class' (BBC 7 categories):
    Con: 24
    Lab: 33
    LibDem: 19
    UKIP: 42

    On the above data Labour should be very worried that UKIP are now taking as much of their supposed base as are eating into the Tory fold. The L/Dems are also proving a tasty morsel.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013
    Lib Dem shift also marked in traditional defs VI (dif vs 2010 vote)

    Working: 13 (-9)
    Upper Working: 11 (-3)
    Working Class: 24 (-12)
    Lower Middle: 24 (+3)
    Middle: 27 (-2)
    Upper Middle: 10 (+6)
    Middle Class: 61 (+7)
    Upper: 0 (=)
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    FPT Redcliffe

    Technicality about the article quoted.

    Arkan was many things but a hitman he was not.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    MikeK said:

    Those people would probably be the lib dem to ukip swoppers wouldn't they.

    UKIP certainly has the highest proportion of:

    'Traditional Working Class' (BBC 7 categories):
    Con: 24
    Lab: 33
    LibDem: 19
    UKIP: 42

    On the above data Labour should be very worried that UKIP are now taking as much of their supposed base as are eating into the Tory fold. The L/Dems are also proving a tasty morsel.

    In my opinion this is because there are a lot of working class voters who are anti posh boys like Osborne etc, but also anti mass immigration, anti gay marriage, anti benefit culture, completely anti any kind of 80s "loony lefty" nonsense.

    Given that the Tories seem to be run by posh boys who don't seem to be anti anything on the second list unless they are told to be by focus groups, and labour appear to be pro all of the second list, who are the traditional working class going to vote for?

    They are the segment of society who have been ignored/taken for granted by all major political parties for the last forty odd years while they curried favour with any minority they could patronise, and they have probably had enough
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    sam said:

    They are the segment of society who have been ignored/taken for granted by all major political parties for the last forty odd years

    I think that's unfair to Thatcher - she sold them their council houses and shares in the nationalised industries - but since then its been a failed combination of Tory 'we can't reach them' and Labour 'who else will they vote for?'......they are about to find out.....

  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited April 2013

    sam said:

    They are the segment of society who have been ignored/taken for granted by all major political parties for the last forty odd years

    I think that's unfair to Thatcher - she sold them their council houses and shares in the nationalised industries - but since then its been a failed combination of Tory 'we can't reach them' and Labour 'who else will they vote for?'......they are about to find out.....

    Maybe you have a point there... At the time she was in power, my family, all working class, hated her, but no one else since has been on our side either

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,014

    FPT:

    Alex Salmond speech from Princeton:

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/PrincetonUniversity2013

    Good on Adam Smith et al, tho he does duck the question of why on devolved matters like health and education are still leading to unequal outcomes (nowt tae dae wi me!) and simply has a pop at the 'bedroom tax'....

    Excellent speech and whilst I doubt he would be perfect as a leader of the government on Independence, it is very hard to believe that he could do worse than the current lot, a malevolent troika devoid of principles with only their own interests and pockets at heart. A small political elite feasting at the trough, soon they will not even want us to have cake. Something drastic is needed in the UK and Scotland will not see any improvement till it is running its own affairs , away from the dead hand of Westminster.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,014

    It would be interesting to see what the actual class is compared to how the voters see themselves. I suspect the blues are more likely to place themselves higher up the scale than they are and the reds more likely to downplay their wealth. Obviously Ed Miliband is working class.

    Alan, He has not done a days work in his life.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Anthony Wells on today's 'welfare' polling - and some interesting spin in the Observer:

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7248

    Incidentally, there was also a question on welfare in the Opinium poll for the Observer. In the Observer’s write up here I was somewhat bemused to find that “When asked for their views on the need for further welfare cuts, just 10% of people said they believed more should be made. Only 14% of Tory supporters backed further welfare reductions compared with 10% of Lib Dems and 5% of Labour supporters”, given how it flew totally in the face of all other polling on the subject. The actual Opinium results are now up here and give a rather different picture – while only 10% think there should be “more cuts”, a further 15% think the government should continue with their present cuts and 57% support a rather “have-your-cake-and-eat-it” option of thinking there should be cuts, but only if they are targetted to protected the poor and disabled. 14% think there should not be any cuts to welfare.

    Does OGH write for the Observer?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Excellent speech and whilst I doubt he would be perfect as a leader of the government on Independence, it is very hard to believe that he could do worse than the current lot

    Agree - finely judged speech. Salmond is clearly the most fluent of our leaders - only Cameron comes close on big 'set piece' occasions.

    But I do sometimes wonder if Salmond also (tho to a lesser extent) has a touch of Cameron's inattention to detail - a bit too much 'vision' and not enough 'nitty gritty' - and he's going to need plenty of 'nitty gritty' to carry the argument for independence.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,608
    Labour are in utter disarray over welfare. Harman's panicked U-turn this morning shows that Miliband is dancing, red faced, to Cameron's tune. As for Balls stomping around the studios acting like Mick Philpott's butler, it's surely over for him. The groomed Chuka will be taking over any time soon.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,608
    'Does OGH write for the Observer?'

    Mike should do the decent thing and delete that very misleading 'Tweet' on the previous page.This is a betting site and not the place for Leftist propaganda whose aim is merely getting Ed Miliband off the hook.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 110

    Labour are in utter disarray over welfare. Harman's panicked U-turn this morning shows that Miliband is dancing, red faced, to Cameron's tune. As for Balls stomping around the studios acting like Mick Philpott's butler, it's surely over for him. The groomed Chuka will be taking over any time soon.

    I thought it was interesting that according to Harman, Labour policy here is predicated on an economy which is failing to generate jobs.

    In fact jobs do seem to be being created. Thus the policy would seem to be redundant two whole years before the election.

    Not sure that's wise.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Labour are in utter disarray over welfare. Harman's panicked U-turn this morning shows that Miliband is dancing, red faced, to Cameron's tune. As for Balls stomping around the studios acting like Mick Philpott's butler, it's surely over for him. The groomed Chuka will be taking over any time soon.

    I agree Labour on welfare is a weakpoint, if they can follow through on some measures they may yet have a platform but even on a charitable reading they are currently in a transitional period (on an uncharitable one, they're not going anywhere). At the moment it hasn't had an effect on the public, but, if it is not transitory, it certainly will by the election.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Carlotta - if this referendum campaign is going to follow the pattern you seem to think it will (the No campaign required to do nothing but ask an ever-expanding number of 'nitty gritty' questions, the Yes campaign required only to answer them), then no leader would have a chance, Salmond or anyone else. Yes would be constantly on the back foot no matter what they did.

    The good news, of course, is that you're indulging in wishful thinking. Tory rule we didn't vote for is the problem - the Scottish people are looking for a solution to that problem, one way or another. The No campaign are going to find themselves on the back foot more than they realise.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @JamesKelly - good afternoon, James - what did you think of the speech?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "what did you think of the speech?"

    I'm still reading it.
  • "Tory rule we didn't vote for is the problem - the Scottish people are looking for a solution to that problem"

    @James Kelly

    I presume you're aware that an independent Scotland will inevitably have a right of centre party. All countries do and it's likely that such a party will win power at some point. Even now the Scottish Conservatives get around 15% a figure which would probably rise post independence for any centre right group.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Fraser Nelson on the Tories & the language of welfare reform (trans, Foxtrot Oscar, Osborne)

    In the last week, we have been reminded that the Conservatives have not lost the capacity to self-mutilate. In the 1990s, the problem was a Spock-like obsession with economics. Now, it’s an obsession with political tactics. Iain Duncan Smith has spent years building a social justice agenda for the Conservatives which is not just plausible, but widely accepted. Not once has he ever blamed the unemployed for their plight, or spoken about ‘scroungers’. His welfare reform agenda is an extraordiary achievement, the greatest triumph of Tory modernisation. It’s a success worth protecting.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/04/welfare-and-language/
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited April 2013
    "All countries do and it's likely that such a party will win power at some point."

    In a PR system they probably will - most likely as junior coalition partners to Labour, as is now the case in an extraordinary number of Scottish councils.

    But that's fine. Just so long as we get the balance of power we actually voted for.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013

  • I thought it was interesting that according to Harman, Labour policy here is predicated on an economy which is failing to generate jobs.

    In fact jobs do seem to be being created. Thus the policy would seem to be redundant two whole years before the election.

    Not sure that's wise.

    That is an argument in favour of a blank sheet of paper for policies.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    scampi said:

    "Tory rule we didn't vote for is the problem - the Scottish people are looking for a solution to that problem"

    @James Kelly

    I presume you're aware that an independent Scotland will inevitably have a right of centre party. All countries do and it's likely that such a party will win power at some point. Even now the Scottish Conservatives get around 15% a figure which would probably rise post independence for any centre right group.

    You could point out that the EU has a right of centre government Scotland didn't vote for, the mental gymnastics alone are worth the entertainment value. Black is white you know.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.

    So what's he going to do to change it ? Last time I looked he was supporting big banks and seeking his own corporate tax rate so he could attract multinationals.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2013
    https://twitter.com/UKIP

    UKIP twitter account seemt to suggest Richard Elvin (who also stood in Middlesbrough) will be the South Shields candidate
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Carlotta - if this referendum campaign is going to follow the pattern you seem to think it will (the No campaign required to do nothing but ask an ever-expanding number of 'nitty gritty' questions, the Yes campaign required only to answer them), then no leader would have a chance, Salmond or anyone else. Yes would be constantly on the back foot no matter what they did.

    The good news, of course, is that you're indulging in wishful thinking. Tory rule we didn't vote for is the problem - the Scottish people are looking for a solution to that problem, one way or another. The No campaign are going to find themselves on the back foot more than they realise.

    If I were running the Yes campaign I'd forget about the Tories. More to the point are:
    1. The UK is not working. Is the No campaign credible when it says things would be worse in an independent Scotland? The longer living standards stagnate and fall, the harder it will be for No to justify its claims.
    2. The same old elite runs things in the tired UK, not just in Parliament but everywhere else too - from the BBC to business. That elite has failed. Independence is the chance to start again. It's Year Zero. Bearing in mind the stagnation, what's not to like about that?

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Offer some solutions, Alan, instead of constantly carping. How would you reduce inequality?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    Offer some solutions, Alan, instead of constantly carping. How would you reduce inequality?

    Rich from you.

    I've already made several posts on the issue. However let's just blame the English, that always works.
  • @SouthamObserver said:
    "Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable."

    True - but a society which lives on debt-financed public spending is equally placed - yet most western economies have done so for years - and fuelled a belief among the gullible that they can do so for ever.
    I'm not sure Salmond is about to break the mould although if he persuades enough Scots he would at least remove a big debt burden from the rest of the UK.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.

    So what's he going to do to change it ? Last time I looked he was supporting big banks and seeking his own corporate tax rate so he could attract multinationals.

    At least he is talking about it. Labour failed to do so for 13 years, the Tories don't care. The field is wide open for him. I guess he'd say independence is the place to start as inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.

    So what's he going to do to change it ? Last time I looked he was supporting big banks and seeking his own corporate tax rate so he could attract multinationals.

    At least he is talking about it. Labour failed to do so for 13 years, the Tories don't care. The field is wide open for him. I guess he'd say independence is the place to start as inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK.

    Like the english chatterati he's talking about it, he's not doing anything about it. His efforts to pump up welfare are also going in the wrong direction.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "You could point out that the EU has a right of centre government Scotland didn't vote for, the mental gymnastics alone are worth the entertainment value. Black is white you know."

    The European Commission, if regarded as a government, is a permanent multi-party coalition in which there are a number of left-of-centre Commissioners such as Joaquín Almunia of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party. Even taking into account the EPP's current predominance, it's fair to say that most Christian Democrat administrations in Europe are to the left of the former Blair administration, and substantially to the left of current Tory Britain.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    "You could point out that the EU has a right of centre government Scotland didn't vote for, the mental gymnastics alone are worth the entertainment value. Black is white you know."

    The European Commission, if regarded as a government, is a permanent multi-party coalition in which there are a number of left-of-centre Commissioners such as Joaquín Almunia of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party. Even taking into account the EPP's current predominance, it's fair to say that most Christian Democrat administrations in Europe are to the left of the former Blair administration, and substantially to the left of current Tory Britain.

    Where do most of your laws come from ? Did Ireland, Portugal or Cyprus vote for austerity ?
  • @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver said:
    "Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable."

    True - but a society which lives on debt-financed public spending is equally placed - yet most western economies have done so for years - and fuelled a belief among the gullible that they can do so for ever.
    I'm not sure Salmond is about to break the mould although if he persuades enough Scots he would at least remove a big debt burden from the rest of the UK.

    It's going to become increasingly difficult to justify claims that things would be worse in an independent Scotland. If the UK only delivers improving living standards to a top 5% to 10% - who threaten to leave if asked to pay tax at rates levied in more egalitarian (and economically successful) countries - what is the point of the UK?

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Surrey - Shalford....2011 by-election
    Con 66.1% LD 20% Lab 12.9%

    Conservative failed to submit the nomination papers because of an "administrative issue" (whatever it is)

    May Candidates: LD, Lab, UKIP

    Should be a strong prospect for a UKIP gain now
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    Under New Labour the North became relatively poorer and the South relatively richer, especially the SE. The North and South are voting for the wrong parties.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    https://twitter.com/UKIP

    UKIP twitter account seemt to suggest Richard Elvin (who also stood in Middlesbrough) will be the South Shields candidate

    Did I miss an official announcement? The first I saw of it was of a twitpic of Farrage campaigning with Elvin in South Shields....

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited April 2013
    "Did Ireland, Portugal or Cyprus vote for austerity ?"


    Ireland, Portugal and Cyprus all voted for governments led by right-of-centre parties. Indeed, the current Cypriot crisis occurred within days of the former communist president being replaced by a conservative.

    On your earlier point, it's curious that when I challenge you like this, you always claim to have answered the point at some unspecified time, but are unable to summarise your response or to provide a link. Please do so now if you wish to have any credibility. Your tired old lie that I am anti-English is not going to get you off the hook here, I'm afraid.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.

    Yes - but of course he does not address two areas of devolved failings (which he raises as failings) - health and education....but has a pop at the bedroom tax instead....very much a curate's egg of a speech....

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Yes - but of course he does not address two areas of devolved failings (which he raises as failings) - health and education....but has a pop at the bedroom tax instead....very much a curate's egg of a speech...."


    The bad bits being the failure to provide a Tory critique of his own government's policies on health and education?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714

    https://twitter.com/UKIP

    UKIP twitter account seemt to suggest Richard Elvin (who also stood in Middlesbrough) will be the South Shields candidate

    Did I miss an official announcement? The first I saw of it was of a twitpic of Farrage campaigning with Elvin in South Shields....

    I missed it too! I checked their website but it doesn't say anything.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    "Did Ireland, Portugal or Cyprus vote for austerity ?"


    Ireland, Portugal and Cyprus all voted for governments led by right-of-centre parties. Indeed, the current Cypriot crisis occurred within days of the former communist president being replaced by a conservative.

    On your earlier point, it's curious that when I challenge you like this, you always claim to have answered the point at some specified time, but are unable to summarise your response or to provide a link. Please do so now if you wish to have any credibility.

    Sure James whatever, like I'm going to spend the whole evening going through previous threads to amuse you *rolls eyes*
  • @SouthamObserver
    " It's going to become increasingly difficult to justify claims that things would be worse in an independent Scotland. "

    I'm pretty indifferent to Scottish independence. I'm however unconvinced they can do better than in the UK unless the EU funds their deficit to a degree which is unlikely- ask Ireland,Portugal, Spain, etc
  • @SouthamObserver

    " As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. "

    I really doubt if that statement can be evidenced.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Sure James whatever, like I'm going to spend the whole evening going through previous threads to amuse you *rolls eyes*"

    That was one option out of two. The other was to summarise your suggestions for reducing inequality. But don't worry - I'm sure no-one is going to leap to the absurd conclusion that those suggestions do not exist and never have existed *rolls eyes*
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Salmond is spot on about inequality. A society in which only an elite enjoys meaningful improvements in living standards is not sustainable.

    Yes - but of course he does not address two areas of devolved failings (which he raises as failings) - health and education....but has a pop at the bedroom tax instead....very much a curate's egg of a speech....

    It wasn't a great speech by any stretch. But he raised some important issues. I don't think oratory is his strength. He is a brilliant debater, though, and handles interviews with aplomb

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

    except of course that's not the case. The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality. odd that Salmond is talking about equality in the US which has a much worse record than us.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I don't think oratory is his strength."

    He was a brilliant orator in the Westminster context. His speech during the debate on the Iraq invasion was superb.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality."


    So your suggestion for reducing inequality is to shrug your shoulders and say it doesn't really exist? OK, that's one mystery cleared up.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " It's going to become increasingly difficult to justify claims that things would be worse in an independent Scotland. "

    I'm pretty indifferent to Scottish independence. I'm however unconvinced they can do better than in the UK unless the EU funds their deficit to a degree which is unlikely- ask Ireland,Portugal, Spain, etc

    Instinctively I am a unionist, but I am finding it harder to justify in its current form. If I lived in Scotland I have a feeling I'd vote Yes. The whole UK needs the shake-up independence would bring. The current elite in all it's forms needs to be confronted with its failures. The end of the country they have so badly run for the last 60 years might be an excellent start.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Growing economies will naturally tend to increasing inequality, all other things being equal. When there is more to share, there are more ways of it being shared unequally than equally. The most important thing in those circumstances is to make sure that all are sharing to some extent in the economic growth.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    "The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality."


    So your suggestion for reducing inequality is to shrug your shoulders and say it doesn't really exist? OK, that's one mystery cleared up.

    You're clearly bored James, as we know you quickly get your blood pressure raised when you blog with me, best give it a rest.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

    except of course that's not the case. The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality. odd that Salmond is talking about equality in the US which has a much worse record than us.

    Then all I can say is that France and Canada must be very unequal societies! We know France is.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " It's going to become increasingly difficult to justify claims that things would be worse in an independent Scotland. "

    I'm pretty indifferent to Scottish independence. I'm however unconvinced they can do better than in the UK unless the EU funds their deficit to a degree which is unlikely- ask Ireland,Portugal, Spain, etc

    Instinctively I am a unionist, but I am finding it harder to justify in its current form. If I lived in Scotland I have a feeling I'd vote Yes. The whole UK needs the shake-up independence would bring. The current elite in all it's forms needs to be confronted with its failures. The end of the country they have so badly run for the last 60 years might be an excellent start.

    Dammit SO stop making me agree with you ! The Uk needs to decentralise and put decision making locally starting with a proper Federal Structure instead of the current half way house.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I'VE DELETED my Tweet on Opinium poll cuts findings cos it was misleading. It was based on reports rather than the actual data now available

    — Mike Smithson (@MSmithsonPB) April 7, 2013
  • @SouthamObserver

    " The current elite in all it's forms needs to be confronted with its failures."

    I suspect you're unduly harsh on the UK - the current set up here in Spain is very bad for the locals, I don't think things are too great in France right now. Indeed most of Europe is not doing well.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "You're clearly bored James, as we know you quickly get your blood pressure raised when you blog with me, best give it a rest."

    One suggestion, Alan. Just one little suggestion for reducing inequality. You can do it. I know you can.

    (I think.)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Good evening, everyone.

    If we accept the premise of UK inequality (not sure that I do, but that's beside the point) why would Scotland leaving make things 'better' there?

    However, that's a brilliant argument compared to this:
    More people in the US are getting killed by lunatics on shooting sprees.
    It's a democratic right to bear arms.
    So let's restrict guns in computer games instead.

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123118-California-Senator-Wants-Fewer-Guns-in-Games
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

    except of course that's not the case. The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality. odd that Salmond is talking about equality in the US which has a much worse record than us.

    Then all I can say is that France and Canada must be very unequal societies! We know France is.

    The risk for the UK is that it is becoming a far more unequal society, the numbers are going the wrong way. This started under Thatcher and continued under Blair, despite the expansion of welfare payments courtesy of G Brown.

  • @mikesmithson

    " I'VE DELETED my Tweet on Opinium poll cuts findings cos it was misleading. It was based on reports rather than the actual data now available"

    Misleading in what way exactly?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The bad bits being the failure to provide a Tory critique of his own government's policies on health and education?

    No James, a 'great speech' would have gone on to explain how in two areas of devolved responsibility - health & education, the Scottish government had done things differently, leading to better results (or early signs of, at any rate). Therefore, the case for better governance over everything from Edinburgh would have been reinforced. Instead, he took an impressive opening then a la Miliband, jumped on the latest passing bandwagon.....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    "You're clearly bored James, as we know you quickly get your blood pressure raised when you blog with me, best give it a rest."

    One suggestion, Alan. Just one little suggestion for reducing inequality. You can do it. I know you can.

    (I think.)

    Get a decent education system - especially in Scotland.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 110


    I thought it was interesting that according to Harman, Labour policy here is predicated on an economy which is failing to generate jobs.

    In fact jobs do seem to be being created. Thus the policy would seem to be redundant two whole years before the election.

    Not sure that's wise.

    That is an argument in favour of a blank sheet of paper for policies.
    I don't see why.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "If we accept the premise of UK inequality (not sure that I do, but that's beside the point) why would Scotland leaving make things 'better' there?"

    Er, the near-inevitability of left-of-centre rule? Sometimes the explanation is the simple one!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver

    " The current elite in all it's forms needs to be confronted with its failures."

    I suspect you're unduly harsh on the UK - the current set up here in Spain is very bad for the locals, I don't think things are too great in France right now. Indeed most of Europe is not doing well.

    Constitutional settlements across Europe are in serious danger, that is for sure. It's only a matter of time before it flares up in Catalonia again, for example.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    The bad bits being the failure to provide a Tory critique of his own government's policies on health and education?

    No James, a 'great speech' would have gone on to explain how in two areas of devolved responsibility - health & education, the Scottish government had done things differently, leading to better results (or early signs of, at any rate). Therefore, the case for better governance over everything from Edinburgh would have been reinforced. Instead, he took an impressive opening then a la Miliband, jumped on the latest passing bandwagon.....
    20 million yanks of scottish background are "in" but 800k home-born Scots living in England aren't. How does that work ?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Get a decent education system - especially in Scotland."

    Do you, by any chance, mean a return to grammar schools, a policy that history shows would INCREASE inequality markedly?

    If so, try again. If not, do elaborate on how you think the Scottish education system can become more egalitarian.
  • The discussion about inequality is unreal unless allied to a debate about welfare. There has to be a balance on the latter or you unleash a perfectly natural tendency on the part of those who work hard and sacrifice to resent the feckless who don't.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "20 million yanks of scottish background are "in" but 800k home-born Scots living in England aren't. How does that work ?"

    It doesn't. You've just made a nonsensical statement, which you haven't a hope in hell of justifying.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Unlike a number of pollsters Opinium doesn't simultaneously publish its data. So when the Observer reports its poll findings so I've got to rely on reports of the poll rather than the data itself.

    In this case the paper reported that only 10% wanted more cuts. The other responses were not included in the report and its clear that that this statement on its own gave a misleading impression.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

    except of course that's not the case. The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality. odd that Salmond is talking about equality in the US which has a much worse record than us.

    Then all I can say is that France and Canada must be very unequal societies! We know France is.

    The risk for the UK is that it is becoming a far more unequal society, the numbers are going the wrong way. This started under Thatcher and continued under Blair, despite the expansion of welfare payments courtesy of G Brown.

    Agreed. And now, for the first time in decades, voters across the UK realise there is no promise of a decent tomorrow. As more feel they have no stake in this country it could get very unpleasant. We have had warnings about what can happen in certain black spots, but there's been nothing on the scale we could see over the coming years.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    I mean an education system that educates and makes people fit for work and a modern economy. The scottish education system can become more egalitarian by raising it standards to increase social mobility.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Mr. Kelly, by that argument any geographical area whose local predominant political view isn't the same as that of the current government should try and split.

    Hmm. As King of Danceria I shall be a benevolent monarch, and provide free wiffle sticks to my many subjects. Let no shirt be without lace, and no trousers without bells!
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I mean an education system that educates and makes people fit for work and a modern economy. The scottish education system can become more egalitarian by raising it standards to increase social mobility."

    I'm not aware of anyone, on any side of the political divide, who doesn't hold the aspriation of a high-standard education system that makes people fit for work and a modern economy. I'm still astonishingly unclear about your own practical suggestions for furthering that objective.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    scampi said:

    The discussion about inequality is unreal unless allied to a debate about welfare. There has to be a balance on the latter or you unleash a perfectly natural tendency on the part of those who work hard and sacrifice to resent the feckless who don't.

    I agree, but as I keep saying you can't have a sensible discussion before you identify the percentage of feckless claimants there are. Once you know that, serious action becomes possible.

  • @morrisdancer

    " Mr. Kelly, by that argument any geographical area whose local predominant political view isn't the same as that of the current government should try and split. "

    Correct. GO SHETLAND!!!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    scampi said:

    @SouthamObserver
    " inequality is increasing dramatically in the UK."
    It certainly did under the previous govt. Now, with the changes to personal allowances, and the extra 5p on top rate tax compared to all but 3 months or so of the last govt, I'm not so sure:)

    As Salmond says, the UK is one of the world's most unequal countries. You can get away with it when living standards for most improve; it becomes a real problem when that stops for all but the elite. That's what is happening now.

    except of course that's not the case. The Gini Coefficient measurement of the UK places us alongside Canada and France in terms of equality. odd that Salmond is talking about equality in the US which has a much worse record than us.

    Then all I can say is that France and Canada must be very unequal societies! We know France is.

    The risk for the UK is that it is becoming a far more unequal society, the numbers are going the wrong way. This started under Thatcher and continued under Blair, despite the expansion of welfare payments courtesy of G Brown.

    Agreed. And now, for the first time in decades, voters across the UK realise there is no promise of a decent tomorrow. As more feel they have no stake in this country it could get very unpleasant. We have had warnings about what can happen in certain black spots, but there's been nothing on the scale we could see over the coming years.

    The problem the Uk has started imo in 1989 with the fall of the Wall and the gradual opening of previoiusly closed off parts of the world. the UK until that point had been the flexible part of the EU so all the free trade\ open market policies worked in our favour. When suddenly faced with people working for 10% of our wages in E Europe and then Asia a chunk of our advantages went. Being a more liberal state we pushed the hollowing out of our economy until we realised too late we'd pushed it too far.

    This showed up in unrestricted immigration which hit the poorer in society, fairweather friend multinationals who bed hopped for lower tax rates and cheaper wages, outsourcing and off-shoring and an unquestioning faith in a new economy.

    Now we need a fundamnetal rethink on how we are going to operate.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited April 2013
    "Correct. GO SHETLAND!!!"


    Will this be the forty-eighth or forty-ninth time that I've pointed out that we support the right of Shetland to democratic self-determination, to such an extent that the SNP stood down in favour of the Orkney and Shetland Movement candidate in the 1987 general election.

    We actually believe in this democratic self-determination stuff. Can you guys say the same? The evidence is far from clear. For example, if Shetland wanted to declare independence from the UK right now, what would your reaction be?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    "I mean an education system that educates and makes people fit for work and a modern economy. The scottish education system can become more egalitarian by raising it standards to increase social mobility."

    I'm not aware of anyone, on any side of the political divide, who doesn't hold the aspriation of a high-standard education system that makes people fit for work and a modern economy. I'm still astonishingly unclear about your own practical suggestions for furthering that objective.

    The issue isn't in the aspiration but the implementation. Better teachers, more demanding standards and an end to education as politics by other means would be a start.
This discussion has been closed.