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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today’s YouGov finds improving perceptions about the state

SystemSystem Posts: 12,250
edited August 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today’s YouGov finds improving perceptions about the state of the economy

Note that the changes in the voting chart are with what happened in the same Sunday Times poll at exactly the same time a year ago.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    edited August 2013
    The economy is improving. What is more, it seems to be improving faster than the Eurozone countries (although as ever you can pick your statistics).

    With a little under two years to the next election, it is looking promising for the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    Edit: and first.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Chris Bryant is to make a speech slagging off Tesco?

    How much money have they had from Lord Sainsbury ?

    All a coincidence....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    TGOHF said:

    Chris Bryant is to make a speech slagging off Tesco?

    How much money have they had from Lord Sainsbury ?

    All a coincidence....

    Stand by for all his election team work at Tesco of that Tesco are about to create 1000 jobs in his consitituency. The way labour have been handling their announcements as volte face is inevitable.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    tim said:

    Living standards still falling so a voteless recovery for the Tories

    election sweeties haven't been distributed yet.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845
    TGOHF said:

    Chris Bryant is to make a speech slagging off Tesco?

    How much money have they had from Lord Sainsbury ?

    All a coincidence....

    Let's hope that they've done their research this time, and that they won't be kicking themselves in the head as they did with the zero-hours mess.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    TGOHF said:

    Chris Bryant is to make a speech slagging off Tesco?

    How much money have they had from Lord Sainsbury ?

    All a coincidence....

    And Next IIRC. I'm really not sure what his point is frankly - all looks like Squirrel stuff to me. And partial. Labour need to find positive stuff to say, particularly Mr Bryant who's specialising in rather aggressive moaning. He's in the Lord Oakeshott Club for me.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    tim said:

    "Sunday 11 August 2013
    British workers have suffered one of the biggest falls in real wages among European countries over the past three years, with only crisis-hit Greece, Portugal and the Netherlands doing worse.
    New figures collated by the House of Commons Library show a 5.5 per cent drop in wages after inflation since 2010. This follows other recent national statistics on the rising cost of living and a substantial fall in living standards since the first of George Osborne's austerity budgets was delivered three years ago."

    Fall in wages puts Britain in Europe's bottom four http://t.co/0QGBsw7Mv1

    Stoking inflation and house prices won't help with that

    just shows what a colossal mess Labour left the country in and still no ideas on how to put it right.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    There has been reports that A Level students are considering the financial sacrifice of university fees versus a job at 18. YouGov explores this topic:

    Last year saw the introduction of the new
    system of tuition fees in England. Under the
    new scheme, students do not have to pay
    tuition fees up front, but pay them through a
    student loan which they will have to pay back
    after graduation once they are earning over
    £21,000 a year. Most universities charge fees of
    between £8000 and £9000 a year.
    Regardless of whether or not you support the
    cost of university degrees being paid through
    tuition fees, do you think a university education
    is or is not worth £9000 a year...
    [Only asked to respondents in England and Wales
    n=1692]
    At Oxford or Cambridge?
    Is worth £9000 a year: 52
    Not worth: 29
    Not sure: 18

    At other highly rated Universities?
    Is worth £9000 a year: 37
    Not worth: 41
    Not sure: 21

    At ordinary universities outside of the top twenty?
    Worth:12
    Not worth: 65
    Not sure: 23

    It has been apparent for some time that many of the former technical colleges which are now called universities do not have the calibre of staff, teaching or research to compete on the world stage. Thus they should revert to being technical colleges that serve their local community who would then still live at home and not have to undergo maintenance costs. There will be screams of outrage from the academia and now-Professors, but in these competitive times students should not have to pay for a quality of service that is not world-class.

    In China, undergraduates are now very concerned about getting a job in their home country; these young, ambitious, hardworking and well-qualified people will be looking for jobs in Europe and USA if they cannot find them at home and many UK graduates will be left trailing in their wake.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Conservaives 33-1 Labour 41 - 1. Over a year is that what seant was getting exited about last evening ?.

    The Conservatives are + 1 in the Observer poll last night, I thought we had to look at the share not the lead ?

    Camerons summer offensive against UKIP, seems to have reversed the loonies fruitcakes and closet racists into normal discourse.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    tim said:

    tim said:

    "Sunday 11 August 2013
    British workers have suffered one of the biggest falls in real wages among European countries over the past three years, with only crisis-hit Greece, Portugal and the Netherlands doing worse.
    New figures collated by the House of Commons Library show a 5.5 per cent drop in wages after inflation since 2010. This follows other recent national statistics on the rising cost of living and a substantial fall in living standards since the first of George Osborne's austerity budgets was delivered three years ago."

    Fall in wages puts Britain in Europe's bottom four http://t.co/0QGBsw7Mv1

    Stoking inflation and house prices won't help with that

    just shows what a colossal mess Labour left the country in and still no ideas on how to put it right.

    So why did Osborne boast that growth was established and recovery on track in 2010,saying that by next year the deficit would be gone?
    probably the same reason as the Blair Govt told us there was no more boom or bust, bragging Oxbridge numpties with no grasp of reality. Maybe Ed will tell us he's saved the world too.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    edited August 2013
    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    tim said:

    tim said:

    "Sunday 11 August 2013
    British workers have suffered one of the biggest falls in real wages among European countries over the past three years, with only crisis-hit Greece, Portugal and the Netherlands doing worse.
    New figures collated by the House of Commons Library show a 5.5 per cent drop in wages after inflation since 2010. This follows other recent national statistics on the rising cost of living and a substantial fall in living standards since the first of George Osborne's austerity budgets was delivered three years ago."

    Fall in wages puts Britain in Europe's bottom four http://t.co/0QGBsw7Mv1

    Stoking inflation and house prices won't help with that

    just shows what a colossal mess Labour left the country in and still no ideas on how to put it right.

    So why did Osborne boast that growth was established and recovery on track in 2010,saying that by next year the deficit would be gone?
    Because for those who know their history .

    Osborne is the new Anthony Barber 1970 to 74 regarding a banking system under the title of 'Competition and Credit Control', leading to a high level of lending, much of it to speculative property concerns
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Voters are becoming more optimistic about the state of the economy. But it's far too soon to be beginning to draw conclusions about how perceptions of the economy will affect voting intentions.

    One prediction - as voters become more optimistic about the economy, they will become better disposed towards all party leaders. That, of course, has betting implications.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    It's amazing how little Labour/Tory switchers there seem to be. So long as the Tories continue to fail to rip votes directly from Labour the 2010 LDs will likely deliver a red win (majority or otherwise) even with economic improvement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    Abbott, Rudd leaders' debate just started in Australia.

    Live stream here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull
  • TGOHF said:

    Chris Bryant is to make a speech slagging off Tesco?

    How much money have they had from Lord Sainsbury ?

    All a coincidence....

    ..... and that's after all the political donations Tesco have made to the Labour Party over recent years - there's gratitude for you.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Also it is funny that the same posters who supported Go Home vans and BME spot-checks now very keen to support Tesco.I suppose it`s not what`s being said but who says it that counts!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    Quincel - No, the key is the UKIP vote now. If the Tories cut it to 5% and add it to their score they get to 38%. If they win over just 2% of Labour voters on this poll, the Tories would then be ahead
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    HYUFD said:

    Quincel - No, the key is the UKIP vote now. If the Tories cut it to 5% and add it to their score they get to 38%. If they win over just 2% of Labour voters on this poll, the Tories would then be ahead

    YouGov don't prompt for UKIP, so these numbers are already skewed.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SMukesh said:

    Also it is funny that the same posters who supported Go Home vans and BME spot-checks now very keen to support Tesco.I suppose it`s not what`s being said but who says it that counts!

    SMukesh - you mistake deep cynicism of Labour motives for support of Tesco.

    Both are bottom feeding scum :)
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    But good economic feel shifts actual voting; good economic news now is just a possible indicator that there will be economic feelgood in 2015, if Osborne's bubble blowing goes to plan and if he can get real wages off the floor by then.

    If he's clever - or, let me rephrase that, if he's cleverer than his opponents - he may be able to give labour ownership of the economy up to about now - yes, it took 3 years to clear up labour's mess - and run a rather convincing "don't let them wreck it again" argument.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    HYUFD said:

    Quincel - No, the key is the UKIP vote now. If the Tories cut it to 5% and add it to their score they get to 38%.

    That's two big ifs, and a humungous if in combination. If they drop below 5% some of that will be going to Lab.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The polls aren;t moving because even as the economy recovers, living standards are being eroded.

    Some economists I've read expect real wages to start picking up next year but I don't think that will be enough on its own.

    If the tories want to win they will have to show voters a little money in the form of tax cuts before the next election, not promise them afterwards.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Since we're having a trip down memory lane (vs year ago)

    Doing well (net)
    Cameron: -15 (+6)
    Miliband: -36 (-15)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    O/T question for our US experts

    Good friend of mine is running for Congress in MA 6th - currently challenging the incumbent in the Democrat primary. Any views on probabilities?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tim said:

    "Sunday 11 August 2013
    British workers have suffered one of the biggest falls in real wages among European countries over the past three years, with only crisis-hit Greece, Portugal and the Netherlands doing worse.
    New figures collated by the House of Commons Library show a 5.5 per cent drop in wages after inflation since 2010. This follows other recent national statistics on the rising cost of living and a substantial fall in living standards since the first of George Osborne's austerity budgets was delivered three years ago."

    Fall in wages puts Britain in Europe's bottom four http://t.co/0QGBsw7Mv1

    Stoking inflation and house prices won't help with that


    Peter Hitchens channelling you...

    "Here comes the next housing disaster
    I have yet to come across a serious economist who does not despise the Government’s ludicrous plans to subsidise home buyers, so inflating the housing market.
    I have yet to come across an economist who does not think the current so-called ‘boom’ is credit-based, and no different in principle from New Labour’s rash policy of ten years ago.
    It also involves thieving from savers by imposing comically low interest rates.
    So why is there so much uncritical boosting in the media of this dangerous, unfair and doomed adventure?
    Why are commentators pretending that the Tories, at 28 per cent in the polls, are set for victory at the next Election? Ask them."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2389180/PETER-HITCHENS-Since-saving-children-lifestyle-choice.html#ixzz2beL6h3Ea
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    taffys said:

    The polls aren;t moving because even as the economy recovers, living standards are being eroded.

    Some economists I've read expect real wages to start picking up next year but I don't think that will be enough on its own.

    If the tories want to win they will have to show voters a little money in the form of tax cuts before the next election, not promise them afterwards.

    In theory we should look at post-tax real wages - for most tax-payers there's already been a useful cut.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Financier said:

    It has been apparent for some time that many of the former technical colleges which are now called universities do not have the calibre of staff, teaching or research to compete on the world stage. Thus they should revert to being technical colleges that serve their local community who would then still live at home and not have to undergo maintenance costs. There will be screams of outrage from the academia and now-Professors, but in these competitive times students should not have to pay for a quality of service that is not world-class.

    You are probably right but not as right as you think: reputation is a lagging indicator. For one thing, there are many pockets of excellence in newer universities, as shown by the research assessment exercise and by citation counts. More interesting however is news that big American companies who are crunching the numbers are finding that what university their staff attended, or even what class of degrees they hold (or GPAs in the US) are not correlated with success. In Britain, as ever we are behind the trend so that Oxbridge and the recruiting manager's alma mater probably still count for something.

    Students living at home are more likely to drop out, iirc, so I'd be sceptical of that policy. What might be better is a return to the days when polys would offer evening classes leading to HNCs and degrees for those in work. The new funding arrangements discriminate against part-time courses but could surely be revised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    DecrepitJohnL - Not necessarily, Oxbridge is in a clear minority of universities attended by executives of top UK companies, partly because many are not British and attended universities from other nations
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Since we're having a trip down memory lane (vs year ago)

    Doing well (net)
    Cameron: -15 (+6)
    Miliband: -36 (-15)

    Outside the margin of error ?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    EdinTokyo - But a majority to the Tories. The Omnium poll shows the trend even more, UKIP on 17%, Labour on only 36%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    AnotherDave - Reinforcing the point
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    On Tesco, I was wryly amused as MP that by FAR the largest constituency meeting I ever organised was a protest rally about Tesco proposing to build a store which might negatively impact local shops. Attendance at that knocked previous meetings on whether we should go to war in Iraq, whether we should have ID cards and the future of the NHS into a cocked hat. And before anyone says "all politics is local", it also eclipsed all kinds of local issues. There's something about Tesco that makes some people get really angry.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.

    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    Charles said:

    taffys said:

    The polls aren;t moving because even as the economy recovers, living standards are being eroded.

    Some economists I've read expect real wages to start picking up next year but I don't think that will be enough on its own.

    If the tories want to win they will have to show voters a little money in the form of tax cuts before the next election, not promise them afterwards.

    In theory we should look at post-tax real wages - for most tax-payers there's already been a useful cut.
    Maybe at your level but not in the real world, any small tax relief has been dwarfed by price increases on just about everything. Only people currently better off since the crash are those who were already rich. The peasants are paying the price as the rich get richer, standard Tory policy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @isam

    Besides a few PB Tories and estate agents who does think taxpayer subsidised house price inflation is a good idea?

    Shall we establish whether it is going to happen before we discus strawmen?

    In the camp that says yes we have tim.
    In the camp that says no we have Mark Carney.

    I know who I trust more on economics.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Cue for what haven't Tesco done for us thread.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    taffys said:

    The polls aren;t moving because even as the economy recovers, living standards are being eroded.

    Some economists I've read expect real wages to start picking up next year but I don't think that will be enough on its own.

    If the tories want to win they will have to show voters a little money in the form of tax cuts before the next election, not promise them afterwards.

    In theory we should look at post-tax real wages - for most tax-payers there's already been a useful cut.
    Maybe at your level but not in the real world, any small tax relief has been dwarfed by price increases on just about everything. Only people currently better off since the crash are those who were already rich. The peasants are paying the price as the rich get richer, standard Tory policy.
    I was thinking about the impact of the substantial increase in the personal allowance. Looking at gross real wages (taking into account the impact of price increases) ignores the effect of the reduction in taxes.

    My taxes have gone up. Which I don't have a particular problem with. I do get annoyed that I don't have a personal allowance, but largely because I think it is disingenuous to try and hide the actual marginal rate of tax.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Maybe at your level but not in the real world, any small tax relief has been dwarfed by price increases on just about everything. Only people currently better off since the crash are those who were already rich.''

    Agreed. To win the tories need to take the burden off the low and moderately paid even more. Scrap the lowest band of stamp duty. Jack up basic tax thresholds much more.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587


    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.

    No, it's been quite well done IMO. Outriders have said zero hours contracts suck and should be banned, stirring up the issue - unsubtle but you don't raise salience with subtlety. EdM has indicated that he doesn't favour a complete ban but something to restrict exploitation, and he's obviously going to say more in September. Politically speaking it's a good sequence of backbench outrage and intelligent front bench response - so long as the outcome is a policy which does in fact restrict exploitation without scrapping everything (a non-trivial task, I agree). But for the opposition to identify a problem (tick), stir up concern (tick, see YouGov) and promise to do something about it (we'll see shortly) is part of what we're supposed to be about.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,516
    Australian leaders' debate just ended and Rudd and Abbott shaken hands, mixed reactions from the various worms, covered the carbon tax, spending, asylum and gay marriage (with Rudd promising a conscience vote, Abbott non-committal). Will update once postdebate polls come out.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Zero common sense attacking zero hours, when Co_Op use it, when Labour councils use them. No self awareness of a double standard. If the Zero Hours contracts came into great use from 1997 why was so little said.

    Perhaps Hariet Harman can advice on another handbrake U turn once, she has worked out her position over betting
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699


    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.

    No, it's been quite well done IMO. Outriders have said zero hours contracts suck and should be banned, stirring up the issue - unsubtle but you don't raise salience with subtlety. EdM has indicated that he doesn't favour a complete ban but something to restrict exploitation, and he's obviously going to say more in September. Politically speaking it's a good sequence of backbench outrage and intelligent front bench response - so long as the outcome is a policy which does in fact restrict exploitation without scrapping everything (a non-trivial task, I agree). But for the opposition to identify a problem (tick), stir up concern (tick, see YouGov) and promise to do something about it (we'll see shortly) is part of what we're supposed to be about.

    Perhaps strangely , some of the most vehement comments against zero hours contracts were on a thread on the subject on Conhome some days ago before EdM had made any comment on the subject .

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    What a tragic situation. Assuming this is accurate - poor girl.

    "THE website Ask.fm, on which Hannah Smith, 14, received hate messages before she was found hanged, has provoked further controversy by claiming she posted many of the comments herself.
    Ask.fm executives are understood to have said privately that the company has analysed the profiles of the senders of the bullying messages and concluded that Hannah had set up most of the anonymous identities herself and sent the vast majority of the messages.

    “With the Hannah case, the company have looked at every identity — the IP addresses are trackable. She posted the anonymous things herself. The police has all that data,” a source claimed. In private briefings last week, the company said “98%” of the messages had come from the same IP address as Hannah’s, with about four posts that had not.

    The company’s claim is likely to further upset those who say the company is not doing enough to tackle internet trolls on its website after it was widely blamed for Hannah’s death. In a post on his Facebook page yesterday, her father David Smith reacted angrily to the company’s claims that Hannah had been sending the messages to herself..." http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Tech/article1298958.ece
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Shouldn't the chart at the top include the option: "signs of the wrong sort of recovery"?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845


    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.

    No, it's been quite well done IMO. Outriders have said zero hours contracts suck and should be banned, stirring up the issue - unsubtle but you don't raise salience with subtlety. EdM has indicated that he doesn't favour a complete ban but something to restrict exploitation, and he's obviously going to say more in September. Politically speaking it's a good sequence of backbench outrage and intelligent front bench response - so long as the outcome is a policy which does in fact restrict exploitation without scrapping everything (a non-trivial task, I agree). But for the opposition to identify a problem (tick), stir up concern (tick, see YouGov) and promise to do something about it (we'll see shortly) is part of what we're supposed to be about.
    You really see this through rose-tinted glasses, don't you?

    Anything Labour comes up with now will be tarnished by association. Which is a shame, as something needs to be done to curb some exploitation. But as usual, some politicians show their mouths off before thinking.

    What intelligent front-bench responses? You mean like Andy Burnham calling for them to be banned?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22328897

    Compare with Vince Cable's much more measured remarks:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23570345

    Admit it Nick, it's been a blooming mess for your team.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Since we're having a trip down memory lane (vs year ago)

    Doing well (net)
    Cameron: -15 (+6)
    Miliband: -36 (-15)

    LOL - I do love your Google Fu at times like this.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013

    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.

    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.
    IIRC the ONS said that 85%ish of employees on zero hours contracts were broadly happy with the arrangement. It is also called freelancing, temping and casual work. Why ban something that 15% are unhappy about? And represents 0.8% of the workforce in any case?

    I bet if we asked if temping, freelancing and casual work be banned - the uproar would be huge.

    Bizarre badly informed posturing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Perhaps strangely , some of the most vehement comments against zero hours contracts were on a thread on the subject on Conhome some days ago before EdM had made any comment on the subject .

    Why's that strange?

    Zero hours contracts aren't particularly a right/left issue
  • SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    What is wrong with company profits going up? Do we want a return to the Labour days, where profits went down and people ended up getting fired?
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    The most significant feature of the polling has been the relative solidity of the Labour share despite some poor internals, notably on leadership.

    That could indicate that Labour's support is soft, people registering protests mid-term who will put their actual vote elsewhere when the real thing comes about.

    On the other hand, it could indicate that Labour's share is rock solid, people will vote for them despite having some doubts (primarily because whatever their faults, they're better than the Tories). And also that any improvement in "under the bonnet" scores can only increase / further solidify their share.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Charles said:



    Perhaps strangely , some of the most vehement comments against zero hours contracts were on a thread on the subject on Conhome some days ago before EdM had made any comment on the subject .

    Why's that strange?

    Zero hours contracts aren't particularly a right/left issue
    Not sure about that. Surely they are a Rightwing free-market fundamentalist / supply-sider's wet dream?
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Plato said:

    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.

    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.

    Bizarre badly informed posturing.
    No doubt until the Tories, inevitably, promise some action on the issue...

  • Plato said:

    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.

    "Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative."

    Which shows the damage done by the ill-advised Labour campaign. There are problems, and some employers are exploiting their workers. But an outright ban would have significant impacts on others, including, from what I recall, your good self.

    They have really ballsed this one up.
    IIRC the ONS said that 85%ish of employees on zero hours contracts were broadly happy with the arrangement. It is also called freelancing, temping and casual work. Why ban something that 15% are unhappy about? And represents 0.8% of the workforce in any case?

    I bet if we asked if temping, freelancing and casual work be banned - the uproar would be huge.

    Bizarre badly informed posturing.
    We get a gardener in for the M-i-L. She's nearly 80 and can't be expected to do the gardening herself, and indeed will not be living alone much longer (probably coming to us).

    If zero hour contracts were to be banned, would we have to offer the gardener a full time job, or would we just sack him and do it ourselves (putting pressure on the expansion of our business and perhaps consequently not being able to employ the people we're planning on doing)?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    edited August 2013
    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734
    edited August 2013
    Charles said:



    Perhaps strangely , some of the most vehement comments against zero hours contracts were on a thread on the subject on Conhome some days ago before EdM had made any comment on the subject .

    Why's that strange?

    Zero hours contracts aren't particularly a right/left issue
    Heresy! Everything is a right/left issue...or so many like to pretend.

    As for this poll, it's not entirely surprising, as while how people feel generally will inform how they feel the economy is going (given most people do not understand economics very well), there has been a range of positive news stories which will make people more positive. If it becomes sustained the Tories may see a bit of a bump, as people should actually start to feel the difference, which they will need if they are to have any chance.

    Given the recovery is after when the Tories suggested it would be, and their own original deficit plans are still in tatters, the question is whether people will feel it is happening in spite of the Tories or because of them. While Labour have not exactly inspired people with their own talk, I think unless they shoot themselves in the foot, people will be inclined to go with the former explanation rather than the latter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    Plato said:

    What a tragic situation. Assuming this is accurate - poor girl.

    "THE website Ask.fm, on which Hannah Smith, 14, received hate messages before she was found hanged, has provoked further controversy by claiming she posted many of the comments herself.
    Ask.fm executives are understood to have said privately that the company has analysed the profiles of the senders of the bullying messages and concluded that Hannah had set up most of the anonymous identities herself and sent the vast majority of the messages.

    “With the Hannah case, the company have looked at every identity — the IP addresses are trackable. She posted the anonymous things herself. The police has all that data,” a source claimed. In private briefings last week, the company said “98%” of the messages had come from the same IP address as Hannah’s, with about four posts that had not.

    The company’s claim is likely to further upset those who say the company is not doing enough to tackle internet trolls on its website after it was widely blamed for Hannah’s death. In a post on his Facebook page yesterday, her father David Smith reacted angrily to the company’s claims that Hannah had been sending the messages to herself..." http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Tech/article1298958.ece

    Extremely tragic and you would find it hard to believe the company would make something like this up as it is going to be scrutinised very closely.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    Ho ho, just read what that pillock Bryant has been saying. Tell you what Chris, could you explain who threw open the doors to immigation ? And all this Tesco exploitation, how come the Supermarket chain reached its zenith under a Labour administration and Sir Terry Leahy the CEO was knighted on 2002 ?

    Labour - the minds of goldfish in action.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    As a bit of grandstanding - it's clearly had zero hours of braincells applied to it.

    Plato said:

    We get a gardener in for the M-i-L. She's nearly 80 and can't be expected to do the gardening herself, and indeed will not be living alone much longer (probably coming to us).

    If zero hour contracts were to be banned, would we have to offer the gardener a full time job, or would we just sack him and do it ourselves (putting pressure on the expansion of our business and perhaps consequently not being able to employ the people we're planning on doing)?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734
    edited August 2013

    On Tesco, I was wryly amused as MP that by FAR the largest constituency meeting I ever organised was a protest rally about Tesco proposing to build a store which might negatively impact local shops. Attendance at that knocked previous meetings on whether we should go to war in Iraq, whether we should have ID cards and the future of the NHS into a cocked hat. And before anyone says "all politics is local", it also eclipsed all kinds of local issues. There's something about Tesco that makes some people get really angry.

    I don't think it's Tesco, not exactly. You see the exact same thing whenever an Asda, Morrisons or whoever want to build somewhere. Tesco merely get it worse because they are the biggest of the bunch, given the issues that people raise are the same regardless of which store it is.

    But of course the same people who complain aren't willing to pay a little more or suffer a little more inconvenience in order to safeguard their beloved local shops when the bigger shops open, so I tend to view such histrionics as one of the purest forms of Nimbyism.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    malcolmg said:

    Plato said:

    What a tragic situation. Assuming this is accurate - poor girl.

    "THE website Ask.fm, on which Hannah Smith, 14, received hate messages before she was found hanged, has provoked further controversy by claiming she posted many of the comments herself.
    Ask.fm executives are understood to have said privately that the company has analysed the profiles of the senders of the bullying messages and concluded that Hannah had set up most of the anonymous identities herself and sent the vast majority of the messages.

    “With the Hannah case, the company have looked at every identity — the IP addresses are trackable. She posted the anonymous things herself. The police has all that data,” a source claimed. In private briefings last week, the company said “98%” of the messages had come from the same IP address as Hannah’s, with about four posts that had not.

    The company’s claim is likely to further upset those who say the company is not doing enough to tackle internet trolls on its website after it was widely blamed for Hannah’s death. In a post on his Facebook page yesterday, her father David Smith reacted angrily to the company’s claims that Hannah had been sending the messages to herself..." http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Tech/article1298958.ece

    Extremely tragic and you would find it hard to believe the company would make something like this up as it is going to be scrutinised very closely.
    Munchausen's By Internet. We see it offline so its perfectly credible to see how it could work even better online using sockpuppets to say what you really thought about yourself/beating yourself up.

    She was clearly a very unhappy and ill young lady. Her parents are understandably totally raw about it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    I see Stephen Fry has now *changed his mind* about boycotting the Winter Olympics. Mo winning a medal yesterday in erm Russia has clearly come as a complete shock - and invalidated his entire argument...

    Right Sort of Medal.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    @DecrepitJohnL

    'Students living at home are more likely to drop out, iirc, so I'd be sceptical of that policy.'

    I recall reading some research along those lines - I think with links to late application/lack of commitment to course/no history of further ed in family etc.

    Some stats came out recently on further ed take up for FSM students (though only up to 2011). High in London, less so in other areas overall. Lots of potential links there re across London school performance etc, but I'd be interested to see if a link between access and ability to live at home. Many more options in London.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734
    tim said:

    kle4 said:

    On Tesco, I was wryly amused as MP that by FAR the largest constituency meeting I ever organised was a protest rally about Tesco proposing to build a store which might negatively impact local shops. Attendance at that knocked previous meetings on whether we should go to war in Iraq, whether we should have ID cards and the future of the NHS into a cocked hat. And before anyone says "all politics is local", it also eclipsed all kinds of local issues. There's something about Tesco that makes some people get really angry.

    I don't think it's Tesco, not exactly. You see the exact same thing whenever an Asda, Morrisons or whoever want to build somewhere. Tesco merely get it worse because they are the biggest of the bunch, given the issues that people raise are the same regardless of which store it is.

    But of course the same people who complain aren't willing to pay a little more or suffer a little more inconvenience in order to safeguard their beloved local shops when the bigger shops open, so I tend to view such histrionics as one of the purest forms of Nimbyism.
    Besides the worshipping of house price inflation one of the strangest British characteristics is to believe that Tesco or whoever announcing 2,000 new job adds up to a net increase in employment in food retailing
    I wouldn't know about that, but having seen far too many identikit, histrionic local oppositions to such developments which virtually never translate into anything of substance in terms of follow up if they actually care about their local shops so much to do something, I probably would be more inclined to support such a development now on instinct.

    And people like to see X numbers of jobs announced of course - you get bigger, sexier numbers with the supermarkets etc, so it makes people feel better to see it, whereas the losses from myriad smaller groups are harder to grasp.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Plato said:

    The most significant finding in the poll, which generally reckons the economy is on the mend, is that only 32% of voters think the Government has helped and 36% think they've made the recovery start later than otherwise. The rest think it didn't make much difference either way. That's why good economic news doesn't shift voting intention.

    Other interesting points not already mentioned: big majority for banning zero hours contracts and thinking them "usually" exploitative. Pretty even splits on all the issues around child allowances, but most people think the Government should neither encourage nor discourage mothers to stay at home. Labour lead on NHS up 3 to 32-20. 51% favour talks with Spain over Gib, excluding sovereignty, 22% want to negotiate on that too, 12% want to send gunboats and use force - UKIP voters not all that different from the rest (55/13/24). A 5-1 majority for social networks requiring proof of identity - young people more doubtful but still 54-33 in favour.

    IIRC the ONS said that 85%ish of employees on zero hours contracts were broadly happy with the arrangement. It is also called freelancing, temping and casual work. Why ban something that 15% are unhappy about? And represents 0.8% of the workforce in any case?

    I bet if we asked if temping, freelancing and casual work be banned - the uproar would be huge.

    Bizarre badly informed posturing.
    We get a gardener in for the M-i-L. She's nearly 80 and can't be expected to do the gardening herself, and indeed will not be living alone much longer (probably coming to us).

    If zero hour contracts were to be banned, would we have to offer the gardener a full time job, or would we just sack him and do it ourselves (putting pressure on the expansion of our business and perhaps consequently not being able to employ the people we're planning on doing)?
    Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    On topic, this poll is a reminder to those of us who follow politics and current events closely, how little the wider population actually does. For a couple of months the economic news has been unambiguously positive, that more than 50% still say there are no recovery signs demonstrates that a significant percentage of the population are paying no attention whatsoever. No one who has read the recent economic news could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Maybe it will filter through over time, especially if unemployment falls. It will certailnly be drummed in at the election when "don't let Labour ruin it again" will be a message that resonates.

    Meanwhile, the Labour 41 figure merely reinforces Miliband's drag on their popularity.

    Less is more, he hasn't gone away you know
  • Rexel56 said:

    Shouldn't the chart at the top include the option: "signs of the wrong sort of recovery"?

    Rexel56 makes a very strong point.

    The last thing this country needs is a consumer led recovery.

    Since wages have been increasing less than inflation for some years, a consumer led recovery can only be funded by even more consumer debt. This is not a sustainable situation and just results in the familiar boom/bust.

    What the country needs is a business investment led recovery so that British business provides more goods and services for export and to replace imports. The country's balance of payments is horrendous and can not go on for ever being financed by selling the country's wealth to overseas companies and private individuals.



  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    An appalling graph for Mr Hollande - approval ratings

    electionista @electionista
    From a 63% high to a 23% low: % of voters satisfied with #France President Hollande since May '12 by polling company

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRYZGwbCUAAYEWU.jpg:large
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    WRT housing policy, lost in all the bleating about imaginary housing bubbles, is the reality that this policy is designed to address the problem of it being nearly impossibility for first time buyers to get on the housing market or for next time buyers without considerable equity to move - unless of course they come from wealthy backgrounds and can be gifted the huge deposit required.

    Sad to see Labour again campaigning against a policy that supports social mobility because it's politically expedient for them to do so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734
    edited August 2013
    Schards said:

    On topic, this poll is a reminder to those of us who follow politics and current events closely, how little the wider population actually does. For a couple of months the economic news has been unambiguously positive, that more than 50% still say there are no recovery signs demonstrates that a significant percentage of the population are paying no attention whatsoever. No one who has read the recent economic news could possibly arrive at that conclusion.

    I imagine it must be people who don't really see any evidence of day to day recovery around them, admittedly not much of a judgement. It was the same reasoning I figured I saw very little evidence of anger at us going into double dip recession (apparently we didn't, according to new figures apparently, but whatever), because to most people it never felt like we'd been out in the first place.

    That there has been such a noticable rise in seeing positive signs and, despite being over 50, a significant drop in those seeing no sign of positive recovery, probably means people are beginning to see it though, and the positive news coverage has been working, it's just taking awhile. The next chart on this topic could be very different.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    we are all lokking forward to Farage announcing the UKIP shadow cabinet , one big snag being there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    I'm sure kle4 is right that the anti-Tesco feeling is transferred to most other supermarkets though they get it more as they're the biggest. The curious exception is M&S. Lefties like them as they retain a bit of an aura of looking after their staff and being vaguely ethical. Righties like them because they're a bit posher than Asda etc. And everyone just finds them quite good. I'm not absolutely convinced about any of this myself but whoever does their corporate image stuff does a good job and has been doing it for a long time.

    Zero hours - no, JJ, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's a (sadly rare) case of Labour identifying an issue that's easy to explain, raising its salience, and having a reasonable prospect of a decent policy to deal with it. We need to handle more issues like that.
  • The Sunday Times have analysed Tory membership figures for Cabinet Ministers.

    And it is pretty grim.

    The worst-affected cabinet member is Pickles, whose Brentwood and Ongar constituency posted a 49.3% fall in membership between 2009 and 2012.

    Villiers, MP for Chipping Barnet, saw her membership numbers plummet 43.9% from 787 in 2009 to 441 in 2012. In the Chingford and Woodford Green constituency of Duncan Smith, numbers fell by 37% between 2009 and 2012.

    In Ferdinand Mount's "The New Few" I think he argued that the Cameroons don't care about membership numbers. They think they can win with direct mail and databases.
    The Cameroons are wrong.


  • Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?

    £20 every other week, weather permitting. If the weather is bad, he doesn't come. He also doesn't come often over the winter (perhaps once a month, again, weather permitting).
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited August 2013



    Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?

    £20 every other week, weather permitting. If the weather is bad, he doesn't come. He also doesn't come often over the winter (perhaps once a month, again, weather permitting).

    From what you say this is a very loose arrangement , presumably there is no written contract and your gardener is free to take on any other work he is offered . The problems arise , in my view , when there is a restrictive contract where the " employee " is not allowed to do so .

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671
    Schards said:

    On topic, this poll is a reminder to those of us who follow politics and current events closely, how little the wider population actually does. For a couple of months the economic news has been unambiguously positive, that more than 50% still say there are no recovery signs demonstrates that a significant percentage of the population are paying no attention whatsoever. No one who has read the recent economic news could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Maybe it will filter through over time, especially if unemployment falls. It will certailnly be drummed in at the election when "don't let Labour ruin it again" will be a message that resonates.

    Meanwhile, the Labour 41 figure merely reinforces Miliband's drag on their popularity.

    Less is more, he hasn't gone away you know

    It shows that anoraks don't live in the real world. The public are seeing little or no improvement and more than likely actually finding it tougher. Prices everywhere are rising and most are earning less, getting no pay rises , etc , etc. Hence the rich shouting that all is well is not exactly inspiring normal people who are struggling and can see years of it ahead.


  • Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?

    £20 every other week, weather permitting. If the weather is bad, he doesn't come. He also doesn't come often over the winter (perhaps once a month, again, weather permitting).

    From what you say this is a very loose arrangement , presumably there is no written contract and your gardener is free to take on any other work he is offered . The problems arise , in my view , when there is a restrictive contract where the " employee " is not allowed to do so .

    Good point, so I wonder what Labour would do, if, God forbid, they every got into office again. As NPXMP points out, he works on a zero hour contract and is happy with the situation.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724



    Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?

    £20 every other week, weather permitting. If the weather is bad, he doesn't come. He also doesn't come often over the winter (perhaps once a month, again, weather permitting).
    And isn't that the essence of zero hours/casual work - no side is committed to anything bar an agreement to carry on/turn up when it suits or arranged. It can't be relied on from either party. If you're unhappy with what's asked/offered - you can simply say No Thanks and change.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    I'm sure kle4 is right that the anti-Tesco feeling is transferred to most other supermarkets though they get it more as they're the biggest. The curious exception is M&S. Lefties like them as they retain a bit of an aura of looking after their staff and being vaguely ethical. Righties like them because they're a bit posher than Asda etc. And everyone just finds them quite good. I'm not absolutely convinced about any of this myself but whoever does their corporate image stuff does a good job and has been doing it for a long time.

    Zero hours - no, JJ, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's a (sadly rare) case of Labour identifying an issue that's easy to explain, raising its salience, and having a reasonable prospect of a decent policy to deal with it. We need to handle more issues like that.

    But Burnham (and others) have already said they should be banned. Not only does that make them look silly, but it causes problems further down the road when such contracts are not banned.

    When a compromise does occur (and hopefully the problems are addressed), Miliband will be asked why he has not done what many in Labour have called for and banned them. Is it because of the Co-Op using them, or Labour councils?

    In other words, it'll be seen as a compromise to help their own vested interests.

    And will Miliband have the guts to say (rightly) that Burnham and others calling for the ban have got it wrong? And then people will ask whether he's saying that because of the vested interests.

    They let their enthusiasms to be seen to doing something run away with them. Sadly too many politicians do this, as do most of us in the real world.

    They did not analyse the problem before coming up with a proposed solution.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

    In the May 2013 elections, UKIP 'won' a dozen Westminster seats. Even Mr Smithson thinks there will be UKIP MPs in the 2015 parliament.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    HYUFD said:

    EdinTokyo - But a majority to the Tories. The Omnium poll shows the trend even more, UKIP on 17%, Labour on only 36%

    Sure they'll get a majority, but my point is that you can't just shift a chunk of UKIP to Con as is. Say UKIP get squeezed of 4%, consisting of 1% to Lab and 3% to Con, that's only net 2% to Con.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Carola said:

    @DecrepitJohnL

    'Students living at home are more likely to drop out, iirc, so I'd be sceptical of that policy.'

    I recall reading some research along those lines - I think with links to late application/lack of commitment to course/no history of further ed in family etc.

    Probably a couple of more mundane factors too: less time spent commuting means more time studying; and those who live at home are socialising with non-students whereas those on campus might party just as hard but with people who collectively know when it is time to change gears as exams approach.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Plato said:



    Well the answer to your various questions , depends whether you have given your gardener any written contract at all , whether the contract ( if any ) allows him/her to take on any other jobs or does he/she have to sit at home hoping for a phone call from you . So we can judge the situation properly , what contract does your gardener have ?

    £20 every other week, weather permitting. If the weather is bad, he doesn't come. He also doesn't come often over the winter (perhaps once a month, again, weather permitting).
    And isn't that the essence of zero hours/casual work - no side is committed to anything bar an agreement to carry on/turn up when it suits or arranged. It can't be relied on from either party. If you're unhappy with what's asked/offered - you can simply say No Thanks and change.
    Ye that is the real essence of zero hours contracts and casual work . Where serious criticisms arise are those cases where the zero hours contract ties the "employee" not to seek other casual work and in effect not being able to claim JSA in exchange in exchange for being placed on a list of people some of whom will be called if jobs turn up .

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

    In the May 2013 elections, UKIP 'won' a dozen Westminster seats. Even Mr Smithson thinks there will be UKIP MPs in the 2015 parliament.

    IMO they will not even come close to winning a single seat . Turnout will be rather higher than the circa 30% of May when UKIP supporters were the keenest to vote .

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I see the summer of discontent continues with yet more red on Ed action.

    Oh well.

    Was it worth knifing your brother for this? to be Unites B**ch?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    It is weird how the lefties on here don't want working class and/or lower earners to get on the housing ladder, with just a limited amount of state aid..It s a Labour thing ...let them rise..but only as far as we want them to...it is called ..control
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    Plato said:




    And isn't that the essence of zero hours/casual work - no side is committed to anything bar an agreement to carry on/turn up when it suits or arranged. It can't be relied on from either party. If you're unhappy with what's asked/offered - you can simply say No Thanks and change.

    Yes that is the real essence of zero hours contracts and casual work . Where serious criticisms arise are those cases where the zero hours contract ties the "employee" not to seek other casual work and in effect not being able to claim JSA in exchange in exchange for being placed on a list of people some of whom will be called if jobs turn up .

    Yes, that's exactly right.

    Schards: "Meanwhile, the Labour 41 figure merely reinforces Miliband's drag on their popularity."

    Eh? More drags that helped produce that result will be entirely welcome. I think it's an outlier, but whatever it is, it's jolly good.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

    In the May 2013 elections, UKIP 'won' a dozen Westminster seats. Even Mr Smithson thinks there will be UKIP MPs in the 2015 parliament.

    Betting on UKIP to win a seat and thinking they will are two different things.
    I don't think they'll win a seat, but offer me 10/1 on them doing so and I'll take it
    I would like to be offered odds on UKIP not coming 2nd or 1st in any seat at the next GE .

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2013
    On topic: Slightly early for the remarkable* improvement in the economy to show through, but what we are seeing is two things: firstly, a gradual, and as yet cautious, shift of narrative in the media, and secondly bewilderment amongst Labour supporters at the undeniable evidence that Osborne did indeed get his macro-economic judgement spot-on. (Yesterday's article by HenryG was a splendid example, reducing him to trying to complain it's the wrong sort of growth, and the wrong sort of improvement in the employment figures).

    As the media narrative switches into a more fulsome acknowledgement that Osborne has been right all along, public perception should also start moving; at a guess, I'd say this will begin to show through in voting intention figures in late 2013 or early 2014.

    Of course, much can go wrong, although one thing that certainly won't go wrong is a housing bubble, as a cursory look at the actual figures immediately demonstrates. On the other hand, the increased confidence is already boosting housebuilding activity and reducing the log-jam in the market. Deflation and collapsing transaction volumes are of course just as damaging as inflation and a bubble; once again, Osborne is steering a well-judged path between the two.

    * Not remarkable to me, BTW. I predicted here at the new year that the economy would surprise people on the upside in 2013, to, if I recall correctly, much derision from the usual suspects.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Zero hours contracts might normally be opposed by Conservatives because: first, they distort the free market; second, they create hidden subsidies via the benefits system; third, they increase spending on benefits, which IDS/HMG is trying to rein in; fourth, workers on low pay and benefits are more likely to vote Labour.

    But on pb, even good Conservative principles are forgotten in the rush to hurl abuse at the Opposition.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664


    Of course, much can go wrong, although one thing that certainly won't go wrong is a housing bubble, as a cursory look at the actual figures immediately demonstrates. .

    So how does that work? What figures, and whatever they are how can they yield a result as emphatic as that?

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

    In the May 2013 elections, UKIP 'won' a dozen Westminster seats. Even Mr Smithson thinks there will be UKIP MPs in the 2015 parliament.

    Betting on UKIP to win a seat and thinking they will are two different things.
    I don't think they'll win a seat, but offer me 10/1 on them doing so and I'll take it
    I would like to be offered odds on UKIP not coming 2nd or 1st in any seat at the next GE .

    They placed 2nd at Eastleigh, on a 52% turnout.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited August 2013
    @anotherDave

    They placed 2nd at Eastleigh, on a 52% turnout.


    So your odds on them not coming 1st or 2nd in ANY seat in the GE should be quite generous . Tempt me .

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    tim said:

    On topic: Slightly early for the remarkable* improvement in the economy to show through, but what we are seeing is two things: firstly, a gradual, and as yet cautious, shift of narrative in the media, and secondly bewilderment amongst Labour supporters at the undeniable evidence that Osborne did indeed get his macro-economic judgement spot-on. (Yesterday's article by HenryG was a splendid example, reducing him to trying to complain it's the wrong sort of growth, and the wrong sort of improvement in the employment figures).

    As the media narrative switches into a more fulsome acknowledgement that Osborne has been right all along, public perception should also start moving; at a guess, I'd say this will begin to show through in voting intention figures in late 2013 or early 2014.

    Of course, much can go wrong, although one thing that certainly won't go wrong is a housing bubble, as a cursory look at the actual figures immediately demonstrates. On the other hand, the increased confidence is already boosting housebuilding activity and reducing the log-jam in the market. Deflation and collapsing transaction volumes are of course just as damaging as inflation and a bubble; once again, Osborne is steering a well-judged path between the two.

    * Not remarkable to me, BTW. I predicted here at the new year that the economy would surprise people on the upside in 2013, to, if I recall correctly, much derision from the usual suspects.


    You also believed Osborne had it spot on when he boasted in 2010 that growth was established

    With no double dip and no triple dip, it looks like Osborne was right about the direction of recovery just a bit off with the pace. Still you only have to be better than your opposition and at the start of this year Balls was banging on about the economic catastrophe we were facing under Osborne's plans.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,845

    Zero hours contracts might normally be opposed by Conservatives because: first, they distort the free market; second, they create hidden subsidies via the benefits system; third, they increase spending on benefits, which IDS/HMG is trying to rein in; fourth, workers on low pay and benefits are more likely to vote Labour.

    But on pb, even good Conservative principles are forgotten in the rush to hurl abuse at the Opposition.

    I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.

    You are making the same mistake Labour made in their kneejerk reaction: not all zero-hours contracts are the same, as mentioned by MarkSenior and others below. Many zero-hours contracts allow a flexible workforce and for useful skills to be shared efficiently between companies.

    Hence attractive to Conservatives.

    When working properly, both sides should be satisfied. The problem is that in some cases they are being used egregiously, and are much more to the employer's benefit than the employee's.

    I was possibly the first to raise this issue on PB a couple of months ago. At the time I said that something needed to be done about the excesses, but banning was not the answer. I haven't shifted away from that position.

    Sadly, some still haven't grasped that.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SMukesh said:

    @Mike Smithson

    Probably slightly unfair to the Tories to use Labour`s best Youguv poll in days to compare last years` poll with.Gives a slightly skewed picture.

    Labour needs a good cull of dead wood.I haven`t heard anything from several members of the shadow cabinet in months.While energy prices and company profits have been going up,Caroline Flint,shadow energy secretary has completely shut up.? Candidate for cull

    Unfortunately Caroline Flint decided to copy a stuck record on Daybreak this Friday - abridged version below - fuller version on Politics Home.

    “The truth is, the market isn’t working because it’s not transparent enough.”

    “The truth is when those wholesale prices go up they put it up on our bills but when they go down we don’t see it turn the other way.”

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/83266/the_sad_truth_is_caroline.html

    Shouting out the same chorus doesn't help spread the message.
    It's funny when I read Labour, Tory and L/Dem PBers slagging each other off. It's amusing that there is talk of Red Ed reshuffling his shadow of a shadow cabinet. It's even more amusing when dear old Dave is talking about reshuffling his actual cabinet, but never gets round to it.

    As for Clegg, if he moves one cabinet member the whole lot shiver.

    The sad truth that is percolating through more and more minds is that these three parties are all the same. The British people are slowly waking up to this fact. As Lincoln said: "You can fool the people.................etc. Even the British won't be fooled forever.
    we are all lokking forward to Farage announcing the UKIP shadow cabinet , one big snag being there are no UKIP MPs to serve in it and no likelihood of any in the foreseeable future .

    Don't be silly Mark, it doesn't become you.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    From a small business perspective the economy has been better since New Year, but noticeably better since Easter.

    Bev.
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    tim said:

    Schards said:

    WRT housing policy, lost in all the bleating about imaginary housing bubbles, is the reality that this policy is designed to address the problem of it being nearly impossibility for first time buyers to get on the housing market or for next time buyers without considerable equity to move - unless of course they come from wealthy backgrounds and can be gifted the huge deposit required.

    Sad to see Labour again campaigning against a policy that supports social mobility because it's politically expedient for them to do so.

    The idea that stoking up house prices helps first time buyers is bullshit.
    Osbornes schemes extend up to £600k, and include Buy To Let subsidies through funding for lending and will include remortgaging from January.
    Anyone trying to buy a flat in London has fallen further behind the market than their student fee debt with just the last 12 months price rises, and the really mad subsidies have not started yet.
    5% of £400,000 = £20,000

    25% of £300,000 = £75,000

    Even if your imaginary bubble produced a 33% increase of house prices (it won't) it will still be hugely beneficial for first time buyers wanting to get on to the housing ladder.

    In reality, outside of London, there is likely to be a minimal rise in prices and the opportunity of home ownership will be available to many thousands of hard working aspiring people who don't have the benefit of the bank of mum and dad.

This discussion has been closed.