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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Populus back to “normal” following Friday’s shock LAB 11pc

SystemSystem Posts: 11,797
edited August 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Populus back to “normal” following Friday’s shock LAB 11pc lead

Well today’s poll is just out and we’ve got our answer. The numbers are very much back in line with all the other Populus online polls since the series was started last month.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Pooh to populus.

    First?
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    It's all that talking about immigration driving ukip voters away from the tories

    must be true...tim told us.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    No great surprise.

    Just to re-write what I put on the previous thread, the polling of Lib Dem activists last week gave a favourable verdict on the coalition, which begs the question why so few of them want to work with the Tories again. They favour Labour by about 3-1.

    I'd love to know what goes on inside LD activists' heads.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    So Racist Van Man still prefers the Tories. Who'd have guessed?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Pooh to populus.

    Looks like the tories' tactics on UKIP is to imply that Farage is all p*ss and wind. He's not interested in the hard yards.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    These figures are based on the responses of 1161 people, weighted. Turnout at the last election was 29.7m.

    That means that 95% of polls will state the Conservative or Labour figure to within 2.88 points of the true figure. I haven't worked it out but that should mean that 99% are within ~ 4pts. I'm having a brain freeze on this but I think it should mean that similarly Labour's lead over the Conservatives shows the same error.

    This is error based solely on whether the sample taken is representative of the population. Really you should include something more Bayesian, i.e. the probability that the calculation done simply does not represent people's voting intention properly. Distinguishing between these two types of error is not always clearly done!

    Nate comment is a truism - the margin of error is usually expressed as a 95% confidence interval. But people don't pay much attention to that anyway, they take the headline number.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    taffys said:

    Pooh to populus.

    Looks like the tories' tactics on UKIP is to imply that Farage is all p*ss and wind. He's not interested in the hard yards.

    I really can't understand what Nigel was thinking of last week re Racist Van. No VI group thought they were *racist* and his party voters were very keen on them.

    If Crosby was Dr Evil behind all this and I very much doubt it - he got a result by scaring Farage into running the wrong way/or at least keeping his mouth shut.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I really can't understand what Nigel was thinking of last week re Racist Van.

    Maybe it was shock. Farage never thought the tories would actually do something about immigration (whatever its merits).

    For the first time he looked like a political dilettante last week.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It is of course possible that this is the outlier and the last poll was the new normal. But such evidence as we have from other polling companies suggests otherwise.

    Opinion polls are really only interesting in broad sweeps, not on a case-by-case basis.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    Fantastic news for Team EdM from the pen of Billy Hayes, GSec of the CWU - he doesn't like open primaries for obvious reasons - worth reading it all.

    "...It seems to be generally agreed that the new mechanism will reduce levy affiliation by around 80 to 90 % from current levels. On top of this, general donations will be substantially reduced, as the impact of reducing the role of unions will increase internal resistance to donations. Inevitably, there will be the argument that if we only affiliate 10 to 20% of levy payers why should we donate more than 10 to 20% of the remaining levy on top of this?

    Taken together these reductions will cost several million pounds each year. The obvious question is then how do the enthusiasts for opting-in propose to fill this gap?

    There will be some increase in business donations, if Labour appears to be the next government. But we know how fickle business is in its support for Labour, unlike the loyal support received from the unions. There is only one way this proposal will work – through a massive increase in state funding of political parties. Labour in government could secure Lib-Dem support for this, and perhaps the Tories also, if there is a large enough cap on individual donations...

    The CWU will participate in the Collins review. We will not dress up as a good thing the battering of the union link, nor the reduction in Party control via open primaries. By insisting upon examining the practical problems of opt-in and primaries, perhaps a re-think can be prompted. That is essential if, in future, the Party is to avoid bankruptcy or becoming a state-funded liberal party. http://labourlist.org/2013/08/labour-could-go-bankrupt-or-become-a-state-funded-liberal-party-unless-theres-a-re-think-on-opt-in/
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    taffys said:

    I really can't understand what Nigel was thinking of last week re Racist Van.

    Maybe it was shock. Farage never thought the tories would actually do something about immigration (whatever its merits).

    For the first time he looked like a political dilettante last week.

    Are you suggesting the van equates to the Tories doing something about immigration? I've never dealt with illegal immigrants but I'd be interested in what those who have would have to say about the van and whether it's likely to make any difference. My guess is no and it's just a gimmick directed at the native population.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Plato said:

    Fantastic news for Team EdM from the pen of Billy Hayes, GSec of the CWU - he doesn't like open primaries for obvious reasons - worth reading it all.

    "...It seems to be generally agreed that the new mechanism will reduce levy affiliation by around 80 to 90 % from current levels. On top of this, general donations will be substantially reduced, as the impact of reducing the role of unions will increase internal resistance to donations. Inevitably, there will be the argument that if we only affiliate 10 to 20% of levy payers why should we donate more than 10 to 20% of the remaining levy on top of this?

    Taken together these reductions will cost several million pounds each year. The obvious question is then how do the enthusiasts for opting-in propose to fill this gap?

    There will be some increase in business donations, if Labour appears to be the next government. But we know how fickle business is in its support for Labour, unlike the loyal support received from the unions. There is only one way this proposal will work – through a massive increase in state funding of political parties. Labour in government could secure Lib-Dem support for this, and perhaps the Tories also, if there is a large enough cap on individual donations...

    The CWU will participate in the Collins review. We will not dress up as a good thing the battering of the union link, nor the reduction in Party control via open primaries. By insisting upon examining the practical problems of opt-in and primaries, perhaps a re-think can be prompted. That is essential if, in future, the Party is to avoid bankruptcy or becoming a state-funded liberal party. http://labourlist.org/2013/08/labour-could-go-bankrupt-or-become-a-state-funded-liberal-party-unless-theres-a-re-think-on-opt-in/

    It's ok, Neil has told us Ed's thought all this through..
  • Options
    Imagine my shock to wake to find Britain's weather forecasters got the Manchester weather forecast wrong and that English batsmen are already surrendering their wickets. Whoever would have thought it?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968
    So Labour's lead is ~6% going into the conference season.

    As things stand the tories seem to have a much clearer focus and set of messages which they can promote to the public (even Owen Jones has picked up on most of them) while Labour still have the blank sheet of paper. This should work to the tories' advantage but Labour at least have the benefit of low expectations.

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    So Labour's lead is ~6% going into the conference season.

    As things stand the tories seem to have a much clearer focus and set of messages which they can promote to the public (even Owen Jones has picked up on most of them) while Labour still have the blank sheet of paper. This should work to the tories' advantage but Labour at least have the benefit of low expectations.

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.

    Labour list were hinting at a trident stab of

    * Rail nationalisation
    * Energy price caps (probably illegal)
    * Massive housebuilding (which is up under the coalition anyway..)

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Guido on Labours Desolate North..
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    DavidL said:


    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.

    Zero-hour contracts are fine if the employer treats the employee with respect and decency and there are enough flexible hours to ensure that the employee gets what they want out of it (ie enough work as they need, but with the flexibility as well).

    It's when it's abused by employers (not giving enough hours, and not providing enough planning and notice on hours) theres a problem.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    My guess is no and it's just a gimmick directed at the native population.

    You're probably right.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,176
    DavidL said:

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    General first impressions were long-since blown, but as far as actual policy goes I doubt the voters have tuned in at all yet. They'll start flying kites and trickling out a little bit more substance, but the deadline for having something specific to say is more like late 2014 than 2013.

    I'd have thought the media would mostly focus on the union link angle, as that fits one of their pre-existing templates.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Labour's big attack this week will be on living standards, apparently. It's certainly true they have fallen.

    Are they going to say how they intend to raise them? (By cutting taxes?).
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    So Labour's lead is ~6% going into the conference season.

    As things stand the tories seem to have a much clearer focus and set of messages which they can promote to the public (even Owen Jones has picked up on most of them) while Labour still have the blank sheet of paper. This should work to the tories' advantage but Labour at least have the benefit of low expectations.

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.

    Labour list were hinting at a trident stab of

    * Rail nationalisation
    * Energy price caps (probably illegal)
    * Massive housebuilding (which is up under the coalition anyway..)

    I can't help feeling that Labour hasn't decided what it stands for right now so is grasping at wonkery/intellectual arguments and a misery message to suck their core vote and some others in. There is a limit to the legs a strategy of 'you feel hard up, don't you?' when the economy is picking up with two years to go.

    Of course the converse of 'Don't let Labour ruin it' relies on voters being nervous/still thinking Labour caused it all in the first place rather than America...

    I'm quietly optimistic and very encouraged for the country whoever wins in 2015 - we need to get out of our sick bed and down the gym
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,146
    edited August 2013
    As Nate Silver has observed the test of an honest pollster is whether they get the occasional outlier which should occur, on average, with one in every 20 surveys.

    95% Confidence intervals a universal polling standard ? One reason the Ashcroft polls are so good is that the sample size is so big that outliers should come about far less often if the same MoE metric is applied.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Almost all the changes in this poll compared to the last one are down to the very heavy weighting adjustments Populus have to carry out because of their massively unrepresentative samples .
    Previous poll they polled 187 UKIP IDers compared to the 20 they should have done and reduced 287 UKIP voters in the sample to 173 . In this poll they polled 219 UKIP IDers compared to the 20 they should have polled and reduced the number of UKIP voters from 274 to just 122 .
    For the Conservatives in the previous poll weighting adjustments increased the number of people who said they would vote Conservative from 407 to 419 , in this poll it increased Conservative voters from 398 to 457 . Fewer people said they would vote Conservative in this poll , weighting adjustments increased the Conservative VI share % .
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Crikey - @OwenJones84 has according to his Indy tweet follow button 127k Followers.

    WTF?
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    DavidL said:

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    General first impressions were long-since blown, but as far as actual policy goes I doubt the voters have tuned in at all yet. They'll start flying kites and trickling out a little bit more substance, but the deadline for having something specific to say is more like late 2014 than 2013.

    I'd have thought the media would mostly focus on the union link angle, as that fits one of their pre-existing templates.

    Ed is a liability to Labour; and as Mike pointed out yesterday the Tory brand is a liability to Dave.

    In terms of policy I don't remember shedloads from any opposition at this stage in an electoral cycle, or that much more any closer to a GE. But Ed has failed to pin down a general direction of travel. And that is a failure of leadership, without doubt.

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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Plato said:

    Crikey - @OwenJones84 has according to his Indy tweet follow button 127k Followers.

    WTF?

    More people follow him than probably read the independent...that's how much the papers are dying..

    Soon he'll have more than the guardian..
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There are times when I wonder if I'm seeing things - Sunny is now writing for ConHome. http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/08/from-sundersays-.html

    Stephen Tall of LDV was at it the other week. Whatever Mark Wallace is thinking of - he's building a much broader church than Tim Monty did with his endless Kippery flirting with Helmer, Nadine et al.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968
    edited August 2013

    DavidL said:

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    General first impressions were long-since blown, but as far as actual policy goes I doubt the voters have tuned in at all yet. They'll start flying kites and trickling out a little bit more substance, but the deadline for having something specific to say is more like late 2014 than 2013.

    I'd have thought the media would mostly focus on the union link angle, as that fits one of their pre-existing templates.
    I honestly think that would be a disaster for him. The last thing Labour wants to be seen to be doing while the story passes them by is navel gazing. He really needs to move on from the rather embarrassing mistakes he made in relation to Falkirk and Unite.

    I agree it is too soon for a full blown agenda but, as SO puts it, a direction of travel and a sense of the principles that will shape that direction seems essential to me. The tory conference is going to be (prematurely) triumphalist. Labour, and Ed in particular, need to respond.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Pulpstar said:

    As Nate Silver has observed the test of an honest pollster is whether they get the occasional outlier which should occur, on average, with one in every 20 surveys.

    95% Confidence intervals a universal polling standard ? One reason the Ashcroft polls are so good is that the sample size is so big that outliers should come about far less often if the same MoE metric is applied.

    95% is just a statistical thing, it doesn't affect the polling itself. A large sample size would normally be expressed with a 95% confidence level with a smaller margin of error, rather than the same margin of error but with a greater confidence.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968

    DavidL said:


    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.

    Zero-hour contracts are fine if the employer treats the employee with respect and decency and there are enough flexible hours to ensure that the employee gets what they want out of it (ie enough work as they need, but with the flexibility as well).

    It's when it's abused by employers (not giving enough hours, and not providing enough planning and notice on hours) theres a problem.
    We have had a couple of really good debates about this on PB over the last couple of weeks or so. I am sure that the ST having a page on it yesterday and Cable expressing concerns is a complete coincidence. But it is a hot topic and it strikes me as one where Labour can say something different and engage with a lot of natural supporters.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:


    What can he say? Rail nationalisation as floated by Nick Palmer is one possibility. Something on zero hour contracts? Maybe an NHS hypothecated tax? I would be interested if there are lefties more tuned in to any internal debates that can highlight possible areas of policy development.

    Zero-hour contracts are fine if the employer treats the employee with respect and decency and there are enough flexible hours to ensure that the employee gets what they want out of it (ie enough work as they need, but with the flexibility as well).

    It's when it's abused by employers (not giving enough hours, and not providing enough planning and notice on hours) theres a problem.
    We have had a couple of really good debates about this on PB over the last couple of weeks or so. I am sure that the ST having a page on it yesterday and Cable expressing concerns is a complete coincidence. But it is a hot topic and it strikes me as one where Labour can say something different and engage with a lot of natural supporters.

    I'm sure they can find something to say and it seems like natural ground for the Labout Party. Definitely one for them to look at and if nothing else come up with something meaningless.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Plato said:

    Crikey - @OwenJones84 has according to his Indy tweet follow button 127k Followers.

    WTF?

    More people follow him than probably read the independent...that's how much the papers are dying..

    Soon he'll have more than the guardian..
    High profile columnists seem to be moving towards a profit sharing model, where their earnings reflects ad revenue/page views.

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,289
    "There is only one way this proposal will work – through a massive increase in state funding of political parties. Labour in government could secure Lib-Dem support for this, and perhaps the Tories also, if there is a large enough cap on individual donations..."

    @Plato Here comes another giant elephant trap just waiting for the Labour party to walk into, and yet again Ed Miliband has left it to others to kick off the debate and fill the vacuum he has left in the media. There is never a good time to raise the issue of increased state funding of political parties, but I cannot think of a worse time than right now to even suggest the notion in public.

    Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg really don't want to be seen to be open to the idea of forming any kind of Coalition that would try and push through increased state funding by forcing an unreasonable cap on individual donations. We just have to remember the anger and cynicism that the expenses caused to get a flavour of how the public would react to this news. Come the next GE, the electorate will have to decide which party they trust to run the economy. The Labour party are already struggling on this issue as public services face yet more spending restraints. The idea that anyone would suggest spending yet more money we haven't got on political parties is just plain daft.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    The 2.88% 95% figure is for random samples of the population. What a lot of polling companies' effort goes into is ensuring that it is as close as possible to random - hence all the weightings. However this breeds another form of possible error, one largely responsible for the differences between companies. And that sort of error, as Mark indicates, doesn't come with a helpful number attached. But it can only seek to increase the overall moe.
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    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    At the risk of being seriously over dramatic I do wonder if Ed is getting into the last chance saloon in persuading the British people that he has things to say that are worth listening to. Another speech about predistribution and the natives will be distinctly restless.

    General first impressions were long-since blown, but as far as actual policy goes I doubt the voters have tuned in at all yet. They'll start flying kites and trickling out a little bit more substance, but the deadline for having something specific to say is more like late 2014 than 2013.

    I'd have thought the media would mostly focus on the union link angle, as that fits one of their pre-existing templates.
    I honestly think that would be a disaster for him. The last thing Labour wants to be seen to be doing while the story passes them by is navel gazing. He really needs to move on from the rather embarrassing mistakes he made in relation to Falkirk and Unite.

    I agree it is too soon for a full blown agenda but, as SO puts it, a direction of travel and a sense of the principles that will shape that direction seems essential to me. The tory conference is going to be (prematurely) triumphalist. Labour, and Ed in particular, need to respond.

    Tory triumphalism will indeed be premature. As things stand it remains very hard to see beyond another hung Parliament in 2015, with Labour quite possibly winning most seats. All of which actually makes Ed's lack of leadership even more puzzling. Like the Tories prior to 2010 Labour has the scope to thresh out a direction of travel.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BBC – “UK services growth at six-year high, PMI survey suggests”

    Why all the fuss? – Aunty doesn’t even think it warrants a mention on its Home-Page, it’s tucked away under ‘Business’ where it appears to be their fourth item..!

    Some things never change.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,289
    That figure really does show just how powerful a voice of the left Owen Jones has become over the last year or two, Ed Miliband has 229,988 followers on twitter. Nuff said.


    blockquote class="Quote" rel="Plato">Crikey - @OwenJones84 has according to his Indy tweet follow button 127k Followers.

    WTF?

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    GPW's new column on Tories vs Labour and the unions

    "The avalanche has only just begun, but the Tories have been throwing rocks at Labour’s relationship with the unions for some time" http://www.totalpolitics.com/opinion/386457/brothers-up-in-arms.thtml

    "The Mail’s deputy political editor Tim Shipman went on to scribble: “When Ed Miliband asked the leading union baron what three wishes he could grant if Labour wins power, the answer was straightforward.

    “‘Trade union freedoms, trade union freedoms, trade union freedoms’ came the immediate response from Len McCluskey, who runs the giant Unite union. “Leaked details of the conversation last night sparked claims that a Labour government would seek to usher in new pro-union laws.”

    But once more, the PM’s hopes that he’d started an avalanche were dashed. Shipman’s detailed revelations failed to get the crucial pickup. So – as is so often the case with political communication – it came down to “events” for the story to finally take light.

    It took for the Labour Party’s extraordinary machinations in Falkirk for the revelations about Unite and Len McCluskey’s domination to come to life.

    And boy how they’ve come to life. Happily for Mr Cameron, his team at Central Office had already done the digging. Once the media had an appetite, briefers were happy to let the Lobby gorge on the fare.

    And the point? What better way to frame the May 2015 General Election as a Presidential contest? Mr Cameron’s biggest hope for re-election is to be contrasted with Mr Miliband in the public’s mind.

    It’s going to be a straight “me versus the other guy” fight.

    And the Prime Minister believes he will win that shootout every time..."
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,289
    I missed this gem in the Observer yesterday - Labour's economic record given clean bill of health at home and abroad
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I''m sure I've seen polling on State funding of parties but can't recall who did it most recently.

    Anyone know using their Google Fu?
    fitalass said:

    "There is only one way this proposal will work – through a massive increase in state funding of political parties. Labour in government could secure Lib-Dem support for this, and perhaps the Tories also, if there is a large enough cap on individual donations..."

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968
    edited August 2013
    "ITV's Laura Kuenssberg has been speaking to business secretary Vince Cable about revelations that one million workers in the UK - four times official estimates - could be on zero-hours contracts. Such agreements give employees no guarantee of work. He told her he would not consider an outright ban but wants to look into forbidding contracts which tie a worker to a particular employer. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/business-news-markets-live/10222418/Business-news-and-markets-live.html

    I am getting deja vu all over again. This definitely has a spoiler feel to it.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I asked the other day if you were on Twitter as I'd like to give you credit for stuff you post here that's crunchy.

    I assume you missed my post or are one of the few of your generation who eschew it!
    Grandiose said:

    The 2.88% 95% figure is for random samples of the population. What a lot of polling companies' effort goes into is ensuring that it is as close as possible to random - hence all the weightings. However this breeds another form of possible error, one largely responsible for the differences between companies. And that sort of error, as Mark indicates, doesn't come with a helpful number attached. But it can only seek to increase the overall moe.

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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    If polls represent reality in some sense, does that mean that roughly one in every twenty elections is an outlier?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Tory triumphalism will indeed be premature.

    Agreed. I wonder if the tories have the ground game to win a GE outright, given the membership meltdown that tim keeps alluding to.

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    Are Tories really going to be triumphalist???? Sounds badly mistaken to me.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,176
    DavidL said:

    "ITV's Laura Kuenssberg has been speaking to business secretary Vince Cable about revelations that one million workers in the UK - four times official estimates - could be on zero-hours contracts. Such agreements give employees no guarantee of work. He told her he would not consider an outright ban but wants to look into forbidding contracts which tie a worker to a particular employer. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/business-news-markets-live/10222418/Business-news-and-markets-live.html

    I am getting deja vu all over again. This definitely has a spoiler feel to it.

    I wonder if the government could do something about the general problem of contracts that are complete bullshit. Ridiculous non-compete clauses in employment contracts, website terms of service, all these things that, if they actually got to court, would be thrown out, but regular people don't know exactly which bits aren't really legitimate, and wouldn't be able to afford a court case to find out.

    I think we need a way of disbarring people who repeatedly create obviously legally ridiculous contracts from making any more contracts. Or at the very least, a requirement that people who do this stamp "bullshit" on all their legal documents.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,292
    KP walking back.. 3 down for 27.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And the sour grapes continue

    Mr Jarvis, the shadow culture minister, said that Jim Messina, one of America’s most highly-rated Left-wing campaigners, would have to “justify his actions” after electing to assist the Tories.

    It has been reported that Labour attempted to woo Mr Messina before he accepted an offer from the Conservatives.

    Mr Jarvis said he did not know whether Labour had approached Mr Messina, however he admitted that his party now needs to make a similar appointment.

    ...Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Westminster Hour Mr Jarvis was asked why Mr Messina, a committed Democrat, would choose Mr Cameron over Ed Miliband, the Labour leader.

    "He would have to respond to that himself and at the end of the day he'll have to look at himself in the mirror and justify his actions,” Mr Jarvis said..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10222541/New-Cameron-strategist-will-have-to-look-at-himself-in-the-mirror-Labour-minister-says.html
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    I posted this morning England would draw this match.

    Feel free to throw rotten fruit at me.

    I promise never to attend any future England test matches again.

    I'm a curse.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,146
    Over a million quid traded on Betfair for the draw at sub 1.04. People must be on suicide watch now.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Over a million quid traded on Betfair for the draw at sub 1.04. People must be on suicide watch now.

    I did advise not to lay the draw.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    Plato - if it ends the Labour Party's love affair with the Democrats then that's a good thing. There's far too many people in the upper echelons of the Labour Party who fawn over the United States. Witness Labour copying Bill Clinton's far from progressive re-election manifesto in 1996 chapter and verse.
  • Options
    On topic.

    Sleazy broken Labour and UKIP on the slide

    Yeah the last populus was an outlier.
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited August 2013
    Points at random

    Since Montgomery left, ConHome doesn't cover parliamentary selection as well as before. Big fail for me....

    What was the Conservative position in 2008, 2 years before the election? Let the Sunshine wins the Day, stick with Gordon's spending plan and the Broken Society? Anything else? The Left was just repeating "no substance, just imagine, lightweight" ad nauseam.

    LD members needed here! Any of you gets the newsletter from Campaign for Gender Balance? On another place, they highlighted that the constituency listed at the top of their selection dates is in a LD held Enlighs seat...suggesting the MP is retiring....
    so can you check and tell us who he is?
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    I thought EdM was going to introduce a policy of a Living Wage ~£26k - had seen this floated.

    Minimum wage is ~£13k for a 40 hour week from October. Now presuming a family with two children under eleven, with Tax Credits involved, does anyone know how the two incomes would compare? - and what would be the saving to the Treasury?

    Of course EdM would have to explain how employers (public and private sector) could afford to double the pay (and extra employers NIC).
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    saddosaddo Posts: 534
    None of these so called economic experts can explain the benefits of taking money off taxpayers, recycling it through a completely wasteful government bureaucracy and then handing it over to state created non productive job holders or giving it to Sky via benefit recipients, ie big gordo's idiot plan.
    fitalass said:
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    I was proved right about the poll last week,101 service and the idiot lord howell about not in my backyard,send it up north on fracking statement hit the tories in the north.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Is anyone else being repeatedly asked to Log In if they press F5?

    I've done a dozen times to

    Plato - if it ends the Labour Party's love affair with the Democrats then that's a good thing. There's far too many people in the upper echelons of the Labour Party who fawn over the United States. Witness Labour copying Bill Clinton's far from progressive re-election manifesto in 1996 chapter and verse.

    I find the odd relationship Labour has with the USA perplexing - it loves to hug the Democrats [who are to the right of the Tories on some issues] and yet is very anti-American almost as a matter of principle on everything else.

    I give in trying to work out what's on. A bit like the Left's dislike of Jews on rather too many occasions. David Ward being the latest example. I'm not exercised much by it - just left scratching my head.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For PBers interested in military matters and kittens - here is the perfect blog

    http://othemts.tumblr.com/post/55712060801/war-kitties-in-hammocks-carriers-and-other

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    fitalass said:
    With this sort of nonsense, it's small wonder that The Observer's circulation continues to nosedive and is set to crash below the 200,000 level.
    How much longer can it hope to survive?

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    Plato - to some extent it's about power, you know, being invited into the senior prefect's study. The likes of Blair, Brown and Mandelson were also strong admirers of the American economy, with its dynamism and business environment. I also think a lot of Labour people were strongly influenced by civil rights and see the US as a much more successful melting pot than much of Europe which remains pretty monocultural.

    Particularly under Blair, the Party was dominated by liberals rather than social democrats.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    Is anyone else being repeatedly asked to Log In if they press F5?

    I've done a dozen times to

    Plato - if it ends the Labour Party's love affair with the Democrats then that's a good thing. There's far too many people in the upper echelons of the Labour Party who fawn over the United States. Witness Labour copying Bill Clinton's far from progressive re-election manifesto in 1996 chapter and verse.

    I find the odd relationship Labour has with the USA perplexing - it loves to hug the Democrats [who are to the right of the Tories on some issues] and yet is very anti-American almost as a matter of principle on everything else.

    I give in trying to work out what's on. A bit like the Left's dislike of Jews on rather too many occasions. David Ward being the latest example. I'm not exercised much by it - just left scratching my head.
    @Plato
    Yep, keep being asked to log on even when the relevant (keep me logged on) box is ticked.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'm a curse.

    No.

    England deserve to lose this match. They have been outplayed with bat and ball and Clarke has out thought Cook.

    A loss may be the giant kick up the posterior that England deserve and perhaps need.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131

    fitalass said:
    With this sort of nonsense, it's small wonder that The Observer's circulation continues to nosedive and is set to crash below the 200,000 level.
    How much longer can it hope to survive?

    If you read the article it's actually pretty good. The headline seems unwise though. It only really addresses fiscal policy.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Can I just say the posting this morning has been of a higher standard than normal?

    I wonder why that is?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,645
    Plato said:

    And the sour grapes continue

    Mr Jarvis, the shadow culture minister, said that Jim Messina, one of America’s most highly-rated Left-wing campaigners, would have to “justify his actions” after electing to assist the Tories.

    It has been reported that Labour attempted to woo Mr Messina before he accepted an offer from the Conservatives.

    Mr Jarvis said he did not know whether Labour had approached Mr Messina, however he admitted that his party now needs to make a similar appointment.

    ...Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Westminster Hour Mr Jarvis was asked why Mr Messina, a committed Democrat, would choose Mr Cameron over Ed Miliband, the Labour leader.

    "He would have to respond to that himself and at the end of the day he'll have to look at himself in the mirror and justify his actions,” Mr Jarvis said..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10222541/New-Cameron-strategist-will-have-to-look-at-himself-in-the-mirror-Labour-minister-says.html

    That is absolutely pathetic. Indeed, it takes the word 'pathetic' to a new level.

    A much better line would be: "It's a shame that someone who was forward-looking when working for Obama has chosen to work for the backward-looking Conservative Party. But it does not matter who the Conservatives hire: we believe our message will beat theirs."

    Sometimes Labour seems to think of itself as the Cosa Nostra. How dare anyone move against the family.

    Messina does not have to justify anything to anyone: indeed, the only people who have to explain things are the idiots who are mudraking now, but kept quiet whilst he was working for Obama.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968
    edited August 2013
    It's raining men (A Cooke)
    Rainy night in Georgia (Manchester, and why wait for night)
    Purple rain (any colour will do)
    Raindrops keep falling on my head (I wish)
    looks like Rain (looks not enough)
    Let it rain (please)
    Here comes the rain again (pretty please)
    November rain (why wait)
    Singing in the rain (I wish)
    A hard rain's a'gonna fall (surely)

    It's Manchester for goodness sake. Another hour may be too late.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Can I just say the posting this morning has been of a higher standard than normal?

    I wonder why that is?

    It's like #TwitterSilence....
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,841
    As much analysis of cloud formations, I see, as of Cook's strategy.

    On topic (or a recent one): much as it would be fantastically amusing, Lab are not going to announce anything resembling a strategy prior to mid-2014 at the earliest. They would be mad to and, in the words of a political titan, when it comes you can expect it to be a "known unknown".
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,645
    I have to be slightly careful about what I say about this story, so I'll post the link and that's all:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23571739
  • Options
    taffys said:

    I'm a curse.

    No.

    England deserve to lose this match. They have been outplayed with bat and ball and Clarke has out thought Cook.

    A loss may be the giant kick up the posterior that England deserve and perhaps need.

    The bottom line is that England's batting line-up is fragile and has been for years. Shot selection is poor, concentration sub-optimal and bottle in pressure situations is lacking. It's a long-term issue and something that has prevented us from being the truly exceptional side that our bowlers deserve to be in.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,968

    I have to be slightly careful about what I say about this story, so I'll post the link and that's all:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23571739

    They really have given up on the EU link, haven't they?

  • Options
    Plato said:

    Is anyone else being repeatedly asked to Log In if they press F5?

    I've done a dozen times to

    Plato - if it ends the Labour Party's love affair with the Democrats then that's a good thing. There's far too many people in the upper echelons of the Labour Party who fawn over the United States. Witness Labour copying Bill Clinton's far from progressive re-election manifesto in 1996 chapter and verse.

    I find the odd relationship Labour has with the USA perplexing - it loves to hug the Democrats [who are to the right of the Tories on some issues] and yet is very anti-American almost as a matter of principle on everything else.

    I give in trying to work out what's on. A bit like the Left's dislike of Jews on rather too many occasions. David Ward being the latest example. I'm not exercised much by it - just left scratching my head.

    The left's dislike of Jews ...

    Let's just let that one hang in the air.

  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Financier said:

    I thought EdM was going to introduce a policy of a Living Wage ~£26k - had seen this floated.

    Minimum wage is ~£13k for a 40 hour week from October. Now presuming a family with two children under eleven, with Tax Credits involved, does anyone know how the two incomes would compare? - and what would be the saving to the Treasury?

    Of course EdM would have to explain how employers (public and private sector) could afford to double the pay (and extra employers NIC).

    Outside London the living wage is £7.45 per hour compared to the national minimum wage rate of £6.19 an hour. (or so it says here.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713

    Plato said:

    And the sour grapes continue

    Mr Jarvis, the shadow culture minister, said that Jim Messina, one of America’s most highly-rated Left-wing campaigners, would have to “justify his actions” after electing to assist the Tories.

    It has been reported that Labour attempted to woo Mr Messina before he accepted an offer from the Conservatives.

    Mr Jarvis said he did not know whether Labour had approached Mr Messina, however he admitted that his party now needs to make a similar appointment.

    ...Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Westminster Hour Mr Jarvis was asked why Mr Messina, a committed Democrat, would choose Mr Cameron over Ed Miliband, the Labour leader.

    "He would have to respond to that himself and at the end of the day he'll have to look at himself in the mirror and justify his actions,” Mr Jarvis said..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10222541/New-Cameron-strategist-will-have-to-look-at-himself-in-the-mirror-Labour-minister-says.html

    That is absolutely pathetic. Indeed, it takes the word 'pathetic' to a new level.

    A much better line would be: "It's a shame that someone who was forward-looking when working for Obama has chosen to work for the backward-looking Conservative Party. But it does not matter who the Conservatives hire: we believe our message will beat theirs."

    Sometimes Labour seems to think of itself as the Cosa Nostra. How dare anyone move against the family.

    Messina does not have to justify anything to anyone: indeed, the only people who have to explain things are the idiots who are mudraking now, but kept quiet whilst he was working for Obama.
    Hell have no fury like a leftie scorned...
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Can I just say the posting this morning has been of a higher standard than normal?

    I wonder why that is?

    Zen socialism. It's spreading.

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Off to C4

    bendepear
    @bendepear
    I'm very pleased to announce the appointment of Paul Mason from BBC's Newsnight as our new Culure and Digital Editor
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,292
    DavidL said:

    I have to be slightly careful about what I say about this story, so I'll post the link and that's all:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23571739

    They really have given up on the EU link, haven't they?

    Sailing very close to the wind.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,841
    edited August 2013
    while we're on this subject (or close to it), can someone please explain this twitter/troll thing.

    Just what dark troubled souls have been unleashed? And is it twitter? Or is it just people but now they have twitter? Or did twitter do something to them?

    It's bizarre in its bizarreness.
    Plato said:

    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323


    A much better line would be: "It's a shame that someone who was forward-looking when working for Obama has chosen to work for the backward-looking Conservative Party. But it does not matter who the Conservatives hire: we believe our message will beat theirs."

    Absolutely agree.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Human nature is as it ever was. Now you like make a pillock of yourself from your bedroom.
    TOPPING said:

    while we're on this subject (or close to it), can someone please explain this twitter/troll thing.

    Just what dark troubled souls have been unleashed? And is it twitter? Or is it just people but now they have twitter? Or did twitter do something to them?

    It's bizarre in its bizarreness.

    Plato said:

    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The bottom line is that England's batting line-up is fragile and has been for years.

    Partly due to lack of competition. The incumbents know the jump from county to international is massive.

    County cricket is a bankrupt anachronistic absurdity. It should have been put out to grass decades ago, in favour of fewer and better regional teams.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    TOPPING said:

    while we're on this subject (or close to it), can someone please explain this twitter/troll thing.

    Just what dark troubled souls have been unleashed? And is it twitter? Or is it just people but now they have twitter? Or did twitter do something to them?

    It's bizarre in its bizarreness.

    Plato said:

    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

    I believe this explains it...
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is rather good http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2013/08/how-write-killer-political-slogan

    "I’m sure the Guardian thinks their random political slogan generator is a harmless bit of fun inspired by Kevin Rudd’s fairly insipid campaign slogan. Let me disabuse them. I suspect many of the parties are probably flicking gently through it and writing down a few choice selections.

    I once sat in a room of about 20 people, where we were invited to write a memorable line to adorn the platform at conference. Entirely predictably, this process was an unmitigated disaster. After an hour of coming up with any number of lines that randomly sorted words like New, Better, Fair, Green, Future, Britain, Fresh, Together and Change into a new order, we all agreed that perhaps it would be better if we got one person to write one memorable line with a single pertinent thought. We then, ahem, "discussed" for another hour who should write it.

    Take a look at the last General Election. Without scrolling down, can you recall any party’s election slogan? In case you can’t, here’s a selection from the five biggest national parties at General Election 2010. Even when prompted can you recall whose is whose? And aren’t they all pretty interchangeable?

    Vote for Change

    Empowering the People

    Fair is worth Fighting For

    Change that Works for You

    A Future Fair for All

    The last one doesn’t even make sense (unless the party in question truly was proposing to give everyone who voted a futuristic helter-skelter and dodgems)..."
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited August 2013
    FPT Grandiose

    Been AWOL for a couple of hours.

    The Reed Index can be downloaded from Reed's site with monthly PDF's going back to March 2010. http://www.reed.co.uk/recruiter/jobindex/archives

    If you just want a quick answer to 'long' term trends then this chart from the Henderson website shows it to indexed to 100 in mid 2009.

    http://www.henderson.com/getimage.ashx?id=2641
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,841

    TOPPING said:

    while we're on this subject (or close to it), can someone please explain this twitter/troll thing.

    Just what dark troubled souls have been unleashed? And is it twitter? Or is it just people but now they have twitter? Or did twitter do something to them?

    It's bizarre in its bizarreness.

    Plato said:

    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

    I believe this explains it...
    It explains it very well. But. The anonymity thing?

    I am the first to say people wearing t-shirts saying "I hate the Army/Britain" however indelicately expressed should be free to their own opinions.

    But standing with a mask and knife and making death threats on what is surely not an anonymous forum (have I got twitter wrong?)??
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,289
    Paul Mason is a real loss to Newsnight as their economics editor, and his move follows that of Michael Crick to C4.
    Plato said:

    Off to C4

    bendepear
    @bendepear
    I'm very pleased to announce the appointment of Paul Mason from BBC's Newsnight as our new Culure and Digital Editor

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    fitalass said:

    Paul Mason is a real loss to Newsnight as their economics editor, and his move follows that of Michael Crick to C4.

    Plato said:

    Off to C4

    bendepear
    @bendepear
    I'm very pleased to announce the appointment of Paul Mason from BBC's Newsnight as our new Culure and Digital Editor

    Comrades reunited ?

    Still taking the taxpayers cash mind you - strange that the private sector didn't come in for either of these two (no laughing !)..


  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,176
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    while we're on this subject (or close to it), can someone please explain this twitter/troll thing.

    Just what dark troubled souls have been unleashed? And is it twitter? Or is it just people but now they have twitter? Or did twitter do something to them?

    It's bizarre in its bizarreness.

    Plato said:

    The BBC's website looks remarkably like the Mail right now - check out the Top 10 read stories

    1: Toilet users warned of tech flaw
    2: Derren Brown 'terrified' by fan fall
    3: Lab-grown burger unveiled in London
    4: The man in hospital for 45 years
    5: 'My breasts were like zeppelins'
    6: Gascoigne fined for drunken assault
    7: Six-hour train delay 'unacceptable'
    8: Private girls' school set to close
    9: Met police payout over G20 death
    10: Falklands admiral Woodward dies

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

    I believe this explains it...
    It explains it very well. But. The anonymity thing?

    I am the first to say people wearing t-shirts saying "I hate the Army/Britain" however indelicately expressed should be free to their own opinions.

    But standing with a mask and knife and making death threats on what is surely not an anonymous forum (have I got twitter wrong?)??
    You can make throwaway accounts on Twitter as long as you have an email address, so it wouldn't necessarily be an inappropriate forum for standing with a mask and knife and making death threats. But in practice the kind of people who would do that are probably drunk and/or stupid and have weak operational security.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Dear oh dear oh dear.

    The Indy have managed the remarkable feat of choosing, for their top headline, an article so spectacularly stupid that one has to rub one's eyes in disbelief that anyone could have failed to notice the logical flaw in it::

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/big-lie-behind-the-bedroom-tax-families-trapped-with-nowhere-to-move-face-penalty-for-having-spare-room-8745597.html

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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2013

    taffys said:

    I'm a curse.

    No.

    England deserve to lose this match. They have been outplayed with bat and ball and Clarke has out thought Cook.

    A loss may be the giant kick up the posterior that England deserve and perhaps need.

    The bottom line is that England's batting line-up is fragile and has been for years. Shot selection is poor, concentration sub-optimal and bottle in pressure situations is lacking. It's a long-term issue and something that has prevented us from being the truly exceptional side that our bowlers deserve to be in.
    You keep saying it, but by which measure is England's batting line up fragile?

    Here is a link to the top 32 England batsmen of all time by test batting average, it includes Cook, Root, Trott, Pietersen and Bell

    http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Records/England/Test/Batting/Highest_Career_Batting_Average.html
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    For those who missed Jeremy Clarkson's PPB for the Conservative Party, here is the last thirteen minutes of Top Gear 2013, with its very own 'march of the makers'.

    Compulsory viewing for all. As British Cricket dies, its car manufacturing thrives.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMb17Et6Wwo
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,303
    FPT James M.

    Good historical novels include Nero's Heirs, by Allan Massie: CS Forester's Hornblower Series; Funeral Games, by Mary Renault; Sword at Sunset, by Rosemary Sutcliffe; The Caspian Gates by Harry Sidebottom; the Deceivers, by John Masters; the first Three books of Bernard Cornwell's Saxon series; the Boleyn Inheritance by Philippa Gregory.

    The Warlord Chronicles by Cornwell are excellent as Morris Dancer said, but In my view, they're more fantasy than history. George Martin's Fevre Dream is a really good historical horror novel.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Fitalass,

    Its all very well pointing out things are jolly expensive.

    How does ed plan to make them cheaper??
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Good historical novels...

    Flashman??? LOL.

    Actually George McDonald Fraser could write. His account of the retreat from Kabul, seen through Flashman's eyes, is very good.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Sean_F said:

    FPT James M.

    Good historical novels include Nero's Heirs, by Allan Massie: CS Forester's Hornblower Series; Funeral Games, by Mary Renault; Sword at Sunset, by Rosemary Sutcliffe; The Caspian Gates by Harry Sidebottom; the Deceivers, by John Masters; the first Three books of Bernard Cornwell's Saxon series; the Boleyn Inheritance by Philippa Gregory.

    The Warlord Chronicles by Cornwell are excellent as Morris Dancer said, but In my view, they're more fantasy than history. George Martin's Fevre Dream is a really good historical horror novel.

    +1 for Mary Renault. Lovely books.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    taffys said:

    Its all very well pointing out things are jolly expensive.

    How does ed plan to make them cheaper??

    By increasing retailer's costs, how else?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,645
    AveryLP said:

    For those who missed Jeremy Clarkson's PPB for the Conservative Party, here is the last thirteen minutes of Top Gear 2013, with its very own 'march of the makers'.

    Compulsory viewing for all. As British Cricket dies, its car manufacturing thrives.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMb17Et6Wwo

    Simply superb. British engineering is amongst the best in the world, especially at the top end. People diss it too much.

    Although I think that video's the only time we'll see a Williams leading a Red Bull this season.

    Oh, and if I were ever to get invited onto the Top Gear test track, I'd want to do it in a JCB 3CX (traditional) in honour of my childhood. Or a 4.5 tonne Thwaites dumper, which I learnt to drive on.
This discussion has been closed.