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SystemSystem Posts: 12,183
edited July 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest GE2015 betting

CON majority slips back & no overall majority gets tighter on Betfair GE2015 outcome market pic.twitter.com/XDdtvQMYDj

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Comments

  • First?
  • Second !
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Third
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    FPT

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    Right wing press not looking good here, Chums = NHS Vandals

    http://www.express.co.uk/

    ...

    There is as yet no evidence that any of the companies contracting at £ 7 to 9 per call are making or can make a profit .

    That is their risk, Mark. It is how a competitive market works.

    New entrants are encouraged into a market when existing operators make higher than average profits.

    Competitors exit a market when they are no longer able to make profits.

    This process ensures that, over time, prices and costs remain competitive and market participants earn a reasonable return on capital employed.

    That may be true but your earlier post falsely implied that companies were operating successfully charging £ 7 to 9 per call but it is far too soon to tell if that is so or even whether all the current companies will follow NHS and pull out over the next 12 months .

    It is reasonable to assume that the companies quoting £7 to £9 per call have done their sums and expect to make a profit on the business. Maybe not a breakeven in 12 months but over a reasonable payback period.

    Companies which underprice their services tend not to stay in business for long.

    Even if the pricing does turn out to be wrong, then repricing or further cost-engineering is an option, with market exit a last resort.

    Markets are better at finding correct pricing levels than any form of administrative planning process.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    4th
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    @AveryLP.

    I am enjoying reading your posts on the NHS.

    "111 is merely a patient interaction process for which market driven cost-engineering options should find optimum price levels"

    Why oh why, Tories ask, don't the public trust us to look after the NHS?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    edited July 2013
    I hope someone in the BBC is paying attention to that. I had to drive to Glasgow and back today. 3.5 solid hours of government bashing on 111 and ET fees.

    Edit. They also went on and on about the Supreme Court case today about whether work experience amounted to forced labour. In about an hour I heard one brief acknowledgement that the respondent's argument that this amounted to a breach of her human rights was rejected by the Court of Appeal who decided the case on highly technical grounds.

    For a bit of variety that well know neutralist Richard Bacon had the Chief Scientific Advisor on and spent all his time trying to get him to admit that some Ministers were sceptical about AGW. And he caught up with his inner Tim by going on about homeopathy as well.

    It felt distinctly like panic to me.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    carl said:

    @AveryLP.

    I am enjoying reading your posts on the NHS.

    "111 is merely a patient interaction process for which market driven cost-engineering options should find optimum price levels"

    Why oh why, Tories ask, don't the public trust us to look after the NHS?

    Moderated.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    edited July 2013
    AveryLP said:

    carl said:

    @AveryLP.

    I am enjoying reading your posts on the NHS.

    "111 is merely a patient interaction process for which market driven cost-engineering options should find optimum price levels"

    Why oh why, Tories ask, don't the public trust us to look after the NHS?

    Moderated.

    Oh dear. I assume that was posted in haste and you will inwardly regret it.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    FPT

    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    Right wing press not looking good here, Chums = NHS Vandals

    http://www.express.co.uk/

    ...

    There is as yet no evidence that any of the companies contracting at £ 7 to 9 per call are making or can make a profit .

    ...

    ...

    ...

    They'll just employ unqualified staff and the taxpayer picks up the bill with more referrals to various bits of the NHS.

    The NHS pathways system was designed to be "risk averse" but to be run by nurse led teams.
    Putting risk averse systems out into this set up will just lead to extra costs elsewhere.
    Which of course the contracting companies leave the taxpayer to pick up the tab for.
    tim, all this will be obvious to the system designers.

    And nurses are generally not trained to do medical diagnostic work so wouldn't necessarily add value if or when diagnosis is required.

    Nurses on hand in a second tier referral can help for care or self-treatment advice when needed but the vast majority of calls will not need nurse interaction.

    You don't need to be a medical professional to know this. It applies to all similar pre-screening systems.

    If your computer won't boot you don't need to speak to Steve Ballmer or Tim Cook. You probably don't even need to speak to a software engineer. Even Fluffy would be overkill.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    As for the implied probabilities, I'd put both Con Maj and No maj slightly lower myself.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. LP, whilst no fan of Labour or their behaviour during and after Stafford that's a rather coarse way of putting things.

    Bit more on the Alonso/Montezemolo spat: apparently when Alonso was asked what he wanted for his birthday he said "Someone else's car". Amusing, and probably true, and over that Montezemolo's gone into the public domain. Right now, Alonso is Ferrari's biggest asset.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23495111
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    carl said:

    AveryLP said:

    carl said:

    @AveryLP.

    I am enjoying reading your posts on the NHS.

    "111 is merely a patient interaction process for which market driven cost-engineering options should find optimum price levels"

    Why oh why, Tories ask, don't the public trust us to look after the NHS?

    Thirteen thousand trusted Andy Burnham, Carl.

    They are all now pushing up daisies.
    Oh dear. I assume that was posted in haste and you will inwardly regret it.
    No, posted after due consideration.

    Currently making daisy chain wreaths to lay at the gates of Stafford District General.

    [Go for it Hortence]

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    @ALP

    And nurses are generally not trained to do medical diagnostic work so wouldn't necessarily add value if or when diagnosis is required.

    Nurses on hand in a second tier referral can help for care or self-treatment advice when needed but the vast majority of calls will not need nurse interaction.

    Stop making a fool of yourself.Have you never been to a Minor Injuries/Urgent Treatment Centres where investigations are done,fractures diagnosed and casts used for treatment entirely by nurses.I am starting to suspect you don`t really use the NHS.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815



    Mr. LP, whilst no fan of Labour or their behaviour during and after Stafford that's a rather coarse way of putting things

    I am rather a coarse fellow, MD, but please be assured I never intended to offend you.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Indeed, Mr. LP.
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361
    Interesting - is there a graph or table anywhere that shows the trend with Betfair GE betting?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:

    I never intended to offend you.

    It is statistics that you have really abused, Avery! ;)
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    SMukesh said:

    @ALP

    And nurses are generally not trained to do medical diagnostic work so wouldn't necessarily add value if or when diagnosis is required.

    Nurses on hand in a second tier referral can help for care or self-treatment advice when needed but the vast majority of calls will not need nurse interaction.

    Stop making a fool of yourself.Have you never been to a Minor Injuries/Urgent Treatment Centres where investigations are done,fractures diagnosed and casts used for treatment entirely by nurses.I am starting to suspect you don`t really use the NHS.

    I am not claiming to understand the NHS, SMukesh.

    This is about the systematic processing and pre-screening of public telephone inquiries relating to health care and treatment.

    If the caller has a fractured bone needing diagnosis and remedial treatment by means of a cast, he or she should probably not be calling 111 in the first place.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Neil said:

    AveryLP said:

    I never intended to offend you.

    It is statistics that you have really abused, Avery! ;)
    Statistics have no feelings, Neil.

    It is like treading on a slug.

    PB Moderator: Avery, your comment re Andy Burnham was potentially defamatory and has been moderated.

    Please refrain doing so in future.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    (from article) "The NHS remains the nearest we have to a national religion."

    Well it shouldn't be. That explains many of the problems.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    F1: Joe Saward looks ahead to the 2014 calendar, and suspects Mexico and maybe Long Beach could try and get on it in 2015.

    India may well be ditched, with Germany and Spain possibly going too. Korea also seems like it could end up leaving sooner or later:
    http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/the-f1-calendar-for-2014/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Mike!

    Are there any implied probabilities for a LibDem majority?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Maguire in full self-parodying flight:

    While behind the scenes Cameron and Hunt, a Cabinet minister who strained to deliver BSkyB into total control of media-tycoon-turned-police-supergrass Rupert Murdoch, carve up the NHS into ­bite-sized chunks for privatisation.

    Fragmentation will be a costly ­catastrophe for patients and a lottery bonanza for corporate vultures circling over the corpse of the NHS.


    Maguire really should have auditioned for a leading role in Danny Boyle's opening ceremony.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    "Any money saved in using lay call handlers is simply added to the bill in more expensive care elsewhere"

    111 helpline has fundamental flaw, say critics - The Guardian: The Guardian111 helpline has fundamental flaw, ... http://t.co/Q80sGIdX7d

    Yet another idiotic article.

    The key paragraph is as follows:

    But critics believe it is built on a fundamental flaw. Instead of using expensive nurses and GPs to assess patients, lay call handlers, who are cheaper, follow a script of questions that leads them to a decision about where to send the caller. handlers have no clinical experience, the system has to default to the least risky option – which means sending people to A&E or calling an ambulance if there is any doubt. Any money saved is simply added to the bill in more expensive care elsewhere.

    Do you really believe that the nurses and GPs answering calls in the NHS Direct service were not using a prescripted prompt system? Allowing nurses and doctors to use their own experience and discretion to provide 'unique' answers to common problems is an idiotic concept.

    The purpose of the call centre is to screen out calls which do not need the attention of medical professionals and to forward those that do.

    Getting a system which sets the dividing line in the right place is the core design problem. In its early stages one would expect the systems to default on the side of safety by referring more than it needs. This balance will no doubt be tweaked to be more efficient and effective with collective experience.

    The argument that pre-screening adds to cost is nonsensical. The telephone call is the lowest cost presentation possible. Would you prefer the caller to have called for an ambulance or walked into an A&E centre without first establishing whether such action is necessary or even possibly necessary?


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    edited July 2013
    The Conservative price is surely falling because people have sussed that the government are amateurs at this bubble thing:

    "Andy Xie, a financial commentator at news website Caixin, said reliance on land sales to fund regional spending was an accident waiting to happen. “While household income may have tripled in a decade, the average land price has risen by over 30 times. Income growth to come cannot justify the current price of land. Nor can a supply shortage. China has no shortage of land. The sustainable land value is probably 70pc to 80pc below current levels,” he said."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/10209560/China-orders-urgent-audit-of-debts-after-IMF-warnings.html

    Now that is what you might call a bubble. Even Gordon Brown did not manage anything quite like that. China is going to have a serious set back and soon. It is inevitable after such prolonged extraordinary growth. Any student of 19th century US or 18th century UK would know it is inevitable. Doesn't mean they will not recover strongly but a major set back at some point, probably very soon, is inevitable.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,689
    AveryLP said:
    That piece is just a desperate attempt to rescue Burnham's plummeting reputation. The Left knows that man has single-handedly wrecked what was once Labour's killer issue of the NHS, and it terrifies them.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Stark Dawning

    "Terrifies them"

    Do you actually believe this? I really can't wait till the general election. I am looking forward to your excuses as to why the Tories have failed to win 5 general elections in a row.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @IOS

    I am looking forward to your explanations for Ed failing to move into substantially positive ratings territory!
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    Exciting time ahead...

    SNP Euro ranking today

    1. Ian Hudghton MEP
    2. Alyn Smith MEP
    3. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh
    4. Stephen Gethins
    5. Toni Giugliano
    6. Chris Stephens

    Conservative Euro count on Wednesday

    Labour Euro lists to be published on Friday
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    SNP Business Convener Derek Mackay MSP:

    “While the Westminster system obsesses with a referendum to wrench the UK out of Europe, it is increasingly clear that Scotland needs a direct voice in Europe to protect and promote our interests.”
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @AndreaParma_82

    I had a text from the GMB asking me to vote for Kamaljeet Jandu for the London list. Obviously I dont have a vote in it so that was a wasted message but it's the first time I've noticed that level of activism in a selection.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750

    AveryLP said:
    That piece is just a desperate attempt to rescue Burnham's plummeting reputation. The Left knows that man has single-handedly wrecked what was once Labour's killer issue of the NHS, and it terrifies them.
    "Wrecked"? Goodness. I'm sure Labour would be delighted if the Tories tried to fight 2015 on the NHS!

    Incidentally, the Lib Dems really missed a huge opportunity with the NHS. If they had killed the Tory top-down reorganisation / privatisation chaos stone dead, what a thing they'd have to sell to tacticals / undecideds in 2015.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Neil said:

    @IOS

    I am looking forward to your explanations for Ed failing to move into substantially positive ratings territory!

    Ed is good! Ed is great!

    :)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,689
    IOS said:



    Do you actually believe this?

    I certainly do. We have panicked articles in The Mirror blubbing about 'blackening the name' of the Labour shadow health secretary. It's extraordinary. The idea that Labour is now vulnerable on the NHS and boot-boy Fleet Street hacks feel they have to wade in to protect its health spokesman is unheard of.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    @Neil

    I believe all Labour members are celebreting that Wednesday is the last voting day and so they won't receive texts and emails by MEP hopefuls anymore!

    I can make a prediction for top spots just to see how many I can get wrong...

    All Southwark council candidates in one pic:
    http://twitpic.com/d57y13
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,401
    4/5 Americans will suffer unemployment, near-poverty or reliance on welfare at some point in their lives
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/poverty-unemployment-rates_n_3666594.html
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    A political battle over the NHS terrifies Labour eh.

    The things you learn on PB.

    Coming next: a battle over the perils of the EU terrifies UKIP, a battle over immigration terrifies the Tories, a battle over Scottish independence terrifies the SNP, arboreal toilets terrify bears.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    Now this is an interesting NHS story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10209651/Reckitt-Benckiser-takes-225m-leg

    Reckitt have made a £225m provision in their accounts which is believed to be related to the action started by Lansley for abuse of a dominant market position in relation to Gaviscon. If this action is successful it will make a very interesting precedent.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Neil

    Yup got that wrong. But on the more substantive point about the next election I am right. The membership and income figures were a important political event but the fact that so few PB Tories even noticed explains why they get so much wrong.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    carl said:

    A political battle over the NHS terrifies Labour eh.

    The things you learn on PB.

    Coming next: a battle over the perils of the EU terrifies UKIP, a battle over immigration terrifies the Tories, a battle over Scottish independence terrifies the SNP, arboreal toilets terrify bears.

    No, Carl.

    Labour failed on the NHS, This is not a matter of political opinion. The evidence is contained in the independent reports into the fiasco at Stafford General Hospital and the more recent Keogh report. It is there in black and white and stares at you menacingly as it catalogues errors in patient care and clinical performance.

    But the biggest deception is not Labour governing as hospitals failed but the party's attempt to cover up errors by treating the NHS as a national religion rather than a health care system and to divert attention away from NHS failings by asserting that patient satisfaction surveys were more important than objective measurements of clinical outcomes and proper assessments of care quality.

    The myth of the NHS being safe under Labour has now been fully busted. It is no longer believed by the public. The NHS is now yet another mess left to the Coalition government to clean up.

    This process may be traumatic but it is long overdue and necessary. The public are now focussed on real outcomes not fantasy.

    Remember most of the public didn't recognise that Brown was destroying the economy until the bubble burst and the public finances crashed.

    We are only now realising that the same path was being followed by Burnham with the same results.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    IOS said:

    But on the more substantive point about the next election I am right.

    Ah but there is so little evidence of you being right in your predictions and so many examples of you being wrong, what is a poor PB Tory to believe?

    What is your prediction anyway? I only see you going as far as the Tories failing to win a majority on this thread. Is that the limit of your hopes or are you expecting a Lab majority?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    edited July 2013
    Avery you should be ashamed. What is the world coming to when lazy sods like me have to dig out this sort of information themselves?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10209651/Reckitt-Benckiser-takes-225m-legal-hit-amid-NHS-claim.html
    Increased credit going to small businesses in June is truly good news and should show through in the investment figures quite quickly. An excellent start to Q3.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    DavidL said:

    Avery you should be ashamed. What is the world coming to when lazy sods like me have to dig out this sort of information themselves? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10208672/Lending-to-small-business-grows-at

    Increased credit going to small businesses in June is truly good news and should show through in the investment figures quite quickly. An excellent start to Q3.

    I did note that in the BoE figures, but most papers and financial commentators went with the overall reduction in lending rather than the increase to SMEs.

    The large corporates are going to have to invest their cash mountains soon. If Carney is brave he may well follow the Swedish precedent of setting negative interest rates to incent investment!

    [PS The Telegraph link to the Reckitt article isn't complete]

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543

    @Neil

    I believe all Labour members are celebreting that Wednesday is the last voting day and so they won't receive texts and emails by MEP hopefuls anymore!

    I can make a prediction for top spots just to see how many I can get wrong...

    All Southwark council candidates in one pic:
    http://twitpic.com/d57y13

    Too right. I voted for the MEP listing what feels like MONTHS ago and I'm still getting bloody emails urging me to remember to vote. It gives me obscure satisfaction that the bloke I voted to put first is the one who's been pestering me least - the Italian guy.

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    @Nick

    Good choice...Italians must conquer the Euro lists. The Italian lady has more chances than the Italian guy though.

    In East Midlands, I would predict Rory Palmer to get second spot.
  • RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    I read the other day that the Conservative Party are looking to go on the front foot during the recess. The only problem is they keep standing on it with their other foot.

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2013/07/tory-councillors-attack-ad-van-message-for-illegal-immigrants.html


    It is clearly most unfortunate that the Home Office should take actions which were bound to be controversial, about highly sensitive matters, without very careful discussion with the affected communities.’

    "If we had been consulted, we would have warned strongly that, whatever effect this campaign might be intended to have on people who are in the country unlawfully, that message is far outweighed by the negative message to the great majority of people, from all backgrounds, who live and work together in Redbridge, peacefully, productively and lawfully.

    "We ask the Home Office to withdraw the campaign."
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    DavidL said:

    Avery you should be ashamed. What is the world coming to when lazy sods like me have to dig out this sort of information themselves? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10208672/Lending-to-small-business-grows-at

    Increased credit going to small businesses in June is truly good news and should show through in the investment figures quite quickly. An excellent start to Q3.

    We must jointly make a note to repeat this good news when Alanbrooke reappears on thread.

    Another Richard too if he isn't still sulking.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    carl said:

    Incidentally, the Lib Dems really missed a huge opportunity with the NHS. If they had killed the Tory top-down reorganisation / privatisation chaos stone dead, what a thing they'd have to sell to tacticals / undecideds in 2015.

    Tricky one, Carl. After all, it wasn't a Tory reorganisation but a coalition reorganisation, enthusiastically presented in this excellent white paper, introduction by the Deputy PM:

    Only by putting patients first and trusting professionals will we drive up standards, deliver better value for money and create a healthier nation

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213823/dh_117794.pdf

    Of course, to be fair to the LibDems, they have had to compromise in coalition, so you can't blame Nick Clegg for having failed to get everything he wanted:

    'I think breaking up the NHS is exactly what you do need to do to make it a more responsive service.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1269045/General-Election-2010-Nick-Cleggs-demand-NHS-broken-up.html
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    RedRag1 said:

    I read the other day that the Conservative Party are looking to go on the front foot during the recess. The only problem is they keep standing on it with their other foot.

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2013/07/tory-councillors-attack-ad-van-message-for-illegal-immigrants.html


    It is clearly most unfortunate that the Home Office should take actions which were bound to be controversial, about highly sensitive matters, without very careful discussion with the affected communities.’

    "If we had been consulted, we would have warned strongly that, whatever effect this campaign might be intended to have on people who are in the country unlawfully, that message is far outweighed by the negative message to the great majority of people, from all backgrounds, who live and work together in Redbridge, peacefully, productively and lawfully.

    "We ask the Home Office to withdraw the campaign."

    It won't be long before we get YouGov polling results on the vans.

    Should be interesting.

  • RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    And yet another Blue on Blue attack:

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/07/lord-flight-1.html

    "Unfortunately, I fear the Coalition’s funding for lending and help to buy policies will end in tears as this also serves to drive up prices. What will happen when, on the back of £380bn of quantitative easing money printing, higher inflation and much higher interest rates come round in due course?"
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    To early to say if we can definitely win a majority but I would say it is greater than evens. I am hoping that we can get an overall majority of around 40 - 60.

    My point is more about the long term structural weakness of the Tory party that many on here simply seem unwilling to face up to. Instead PB gets people like Stark Dawning saying Labour is terrified of campaigning on the NHS!

    It also amazes me how many on here are dismissive of the relevance of Scottish and North of England voters, not to mention 6 million trade unionists. But then obsess about how Labour are complacent by just pointing out electoral reality.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    IOS said:


    My point is more about the long term structural weakness of the Tory party that many on here simply seem unwilling to face up to.

    Cameron has forgotten whether it was net immigration or Tory membership that he promised to reduce to tens of thousands.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,314
    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 21m
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Brits narrowly back Home Office ad vans telling illegal immigrants to go home by 47% to 41%. Details in tmrw's Sun.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Neil.

    I would also point out with the exception of Bradford West ( I said a Lab 2k majority!) have been right on the by elections. In fact I have won several bets against PB Tories on these issues for the benefit of the site.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @IOS

    So you got all the by-elections right except the one Labour lost? It would be impolite to mention Cornwall ;)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 21m
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Brits narrowly back Home Office ad vans telling illegal immigrants to go home by 47% to 41%. Details in tmrw's Sun.


    The way PBTories were behaving in the last few days you would have assumed that the support was overwhelming.

    If this fails, of course, the Tories could ask some people to wear a green crescent or a spinning wheel on their sleeves for easy identification.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    RedRag1 said:

    And yet another Blue on Blue attack:

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/07/lord-flight-1.html

    "Unfortunately, I fear the Coalition’s funding for lending and help to buy policies will end in tears as this also serves to drive up prices. What will happen when, on the back of £380bn of quantitative easing money printing, higher inflation and much higher interest rates come round in due course?"

    Although the blog comment you quote is total nonsense, you should be made aware that Quantitative Easing was introduced in 2009 under Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling.

    The largest single authority given by the Treasury to the BoE was also in 2009.
    Sep 2009 £165 bn
    Oct 2010 £ 10 bn
    Nov 2010 £ 25 bn
    Oct 2011 £ 75 bn
    Feb 2012 £ 50 bn
    Jul 2012 £ 50 bn
    There is no evidence to date that QE has yet caused general inflation and the BoE and most independent economists are sceptical that it will ever have a significant inflationary impact.

    There have been arguments that asset prices, in particular equities, have increased in value faster than they would have done had QE not been adopted as a central bank policy, but this is heard more in the US where QE has been much larger in scale and more persistent than in the UK.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 21m
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Brits narrowly back Home Office ad vans telling illegal immigrants to go home by 47% to 41%. Details in tmrw's Sun.

    47% support wasteful spending by bloated bureaucracy. Hard to know who will be happiest with this.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Neil said:

    IOS said:


    My point is more about the long term structural weakness of the Tory party that many on here simply seem unwilling to face up to.

    Cameron has forgotten whether it was net immigration or Tory membership that he promised to reduce to tens of thousands.
    To be fair to Dave on this one, the demography of the Tory Party does not help. A 65 year old is a sprightly old chap, I say !!

  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Not that Labour won. The banding of the % when available.

    Cornwall. You mean the one where I pointed out the Tories weren't doing much and they went from 1st to 3rd overall. Ask Mike, who lives in a marginal seat, how much work the Tories can do on the ground. Nada.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    IOS said:


    Cornwall. You mean the one where I pointed out the Tories weren't doing much

    I mean the one where you claimed Labour was outworking the Tories. Labour got 8% of the vote.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    carl said:

    Incidentally, the Lib Dems really missed a huge opportunity with the NHS. If they had killed the Tory top-down reorganisation / privatisation chaos stone dead, what a thing they'd have to sell to tacticals / undecideds in 2015.

    Tricky one, Carl. After all, it wasn't a Tory reorganisation but a coalition reorganisation, enthusiastically presented in this excellent white paper, introduction by the Deputy PM:

    Only by putting patients first and trusting professionals will we drive up standards, deliver better value for money and create a healthier nation

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213823/dh_117794.pdf

    Of course, to be fair to the LibDems, they have had to compromise in coalition, so you can't blame Nick Clegg for having failed to get everything he wanted:

    'I think breaking up the NHS is exactly what you do need to do to make it a more responsive service.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1269045/General-Election-2010-Nick-Cleggs-demand-NHS-broken-up.html
    I think this may be reproduced in leaflets in the LD Lab marginals !

    Someone wrote here a few days back that the report two weeks back had "neutralised" the Labour lead on the NHS !!

    Someone dial 111.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    47》》 32 %

    Wedge inserted.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 21m
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Brits narrowly back Home Office ad vans telling illegal immigrants to go home by 47% to 41%. Details in tmrw's Sun.


    The way PBTories were behaving in the last few days you would have assumed that the support was overwhelming.

    If this fails, of course, the Tories could ask some people to wear a green crescent or a spinning wheel on their sleeves for easy identification.
    Can you provide a link to support your smear?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Neil said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 21m
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Brits narrowly back Home Office ad vans telling illegal immigrants to go home by 47% to 41%. Details in tmrw's Sun.

    47% support wasteful spending by bloated bureaucracy. Hard to know who will be happiest with this.
    On a pound per column inch and broadcast minute basis it must be one of the most effective government (and political) campaigns ever, Neil.

    No accounting for the appeal of bad taste to the British public.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:



    On a pound per column inch and broadcast minute basis it must be one of the most effective political campaigns ever, Neil.

    Perhaps, Avery, but taxpayers' money shouldnt be spent on a Tory political stunt so it was a horrible waste twice over.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Neil

    We gained all those 8 and no one got more than 25% of the vote.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    IOS

    How many gains do you predict for Labour in 2014 Euros? I would say 4 in a poor night. Up to 8 in a decent but unremarkable night. Low 10s if you win over UKIP.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @IOS

    Come on, IOS, you came 5th in vote share and the Tories came 1st. If that's what the Tories can do when they are being outworked by you I fear for you guys when they start trying!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,263
    AveryLP said:

    On a pound per column inch and broadcast minute basis it must be one of the most effective government (and political) campaigns ever, Neil.

    Maybe, but I generally do not support Government spending on advertising. And it certainly should not be used on matters of current political controversy. Taxpayers are being expected to pay to be persuaded the Government is doing a good job on immigration. Which is fundamentally corrupt.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2013
    @Avery

    Congratulations on your Victor Lodorum for the most flags for trolling. It must have been quite a post! Tim can only look on misty eyed at the thrusting Tory talent now coming through.

    Kevin Mcguire deserves a mention too for lighting your touch paper with his uncharacteristically perceptive comment.........


    "The NHS remains the nearest we have to a national religion. The backlash when it comes, and it will, is going to be ferocious."



  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    "The NHS remains the nearest we have to a national religion. The backlash when it comes, and it will, is going to be ferocious."

    Will that be bigger than the spare room subsidy backlash?

    And have we had it yet ?

    I missed the one when Labour applied it to private renters....
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    Neil.

    Vote shares don't matter. Seats do! They came 3rd and we came 4th.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    IOS said:

    Neil.

    Vote shares don't matter. Seats do!

    They won almost 4 times as many seats as you, IOS...

    I can play this game all night! ;)

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Anyone know the Yougov figures or do we have to wait until tomorrow ?
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    They still went from 1st to 3rd in what should be a heartland. That's lazy campaigning. Anyway I will pick this up with you another time but the reality is the Tories do not get campaigning. And they simply don't have the membership to do it even if they did.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    @Carlotta

    "Will that be bigger than the spare room subsidy backlash?"

    Much bigger!

    Wars are fought in the name of religion.

    'Spare room subsidies' just doesn't cut it
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Roger said:

    @Avery

    Congratulations on your Victor Lodorum for the most flags for trolling. It must have been quite a post! Tim can only look on misty eyed at the thrusting Tory talent now coming through.

    Kevin Mcguire deserves a mention too for lighting your touch paper with his uncharacteristically perceptive comment.........


    "The NHS remains the nearest we have to a national religion. The backlash when it comes, and it will, is going to be ferocious."

    It is when I get cross-party flags that I will start worrying, Otherwise Mark Senior, Carl and IOS just become badges of honour. Excluding of course the strange Hortence Withering.

    Now, Roger, I really must pick you up on your Latin. You obviously failed to pay attention in class at your Welsh prep school.

    Victor Lodorum = Victor Ludorum
    Reducto ad absurdam = Reductio ad absurdum

    No doubt you will seek revenge by hurling insults back at me in Japanese,

    As for the NHS, we need simple improvement of outcomes and care quality, not a jihad. This is where Lansley and Hunt will be seen to have delivered in 2015.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @IOS

    I look forward to picking this up at a later date. Maybe then you can tell me how badly mistaken the Tories were for selecting on the old boundaries. Oh wait .. they didnt!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    On a pound per column inch and broadcast minute basis it must be one of the most effective government (and political) campaigns ever, Neil.

    Maybe, but I generally do not support Government spending on advertising. And it certainly should not be used on matters of current political controversy. Taxpayers are being expected to pay to be persuaded the Government is doing a good job on immigration. Which is fundamentally corrupt.

    It rather depends who you believe was the target of the messaging.

    If illegal immigrants then the government have every justification in piloting unusual methods of communication.

    As I said on a previous thread the tactic is near identical (and probably as ineffective) as the BBC patrolling council estates with Television Licence Detector Vans.

    Although it has kept us occupied during the silly political season it is not a government action I would go to war to defend.



  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    IOS said:

    They still went from 1st to 3rd in what should be a heartland. That's lazy campaigning. Anyway I will pick this up with you another time but the reality is the Tories do not get campaigning. And they simply don't have the membership to do it even if they did.

    The Tories lost more than a third of their councillors in Cornwall. Well done, Hollie !!
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:



    It rather depends who you believe was the target of the messaging.

    Come on, Avery, even Seth himself would have struggled to carry off the naivety required to convince us he really believed there was any doubt about the targeting.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Neil said:

    AveryLP said:



    It rather depends who you believe was the target of the messaging.

    Come on, Avery, even Seth himself would have struggled to carry off the naivety required to convince us he really believed there was any doubt about the targeting.
    You can have two targets, Neil.

    The more complex the layers of meaning and intent the more fun.

    And the more plausible the deniability the angrier become your opponents.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    AveryLP said:


    And the more plausible the deniability the angrier become your opponents.

    In which case the sane-minded opponents of this mess must be intensely relaxed!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Neil said:

    AveryLP said:


    And the more plausible the deniability the angrier become your opponents.

    ... sane-minded opponents ,,,

    Oxymoron alert!

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    @Avery

    "If illegal immigrants then the government have every justification in piloting unusual methods of communication."

    This made me laugh out loud! Was it supposed to be funny or are my 'teach yourself Japanese while you do the ironing' CD's colouring everything?



    ろじゃー
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Roger said:

    @Avery

    "If illegal immigrants then the government have every justification in piloting unusual methods of communication."

    This made me laugh out loud! Was it supposed to be funny or are my 'teach yourself Japanese while you do the ironing' CD's colouring everything?



    ろじゃー

    If you back translate it becomes ロジャー.

    We shall have to wait for Edmondo to see whether it is understandable or rude.

    I have given up on trying to work out what are jokes or not.

    The things I find most funny pass through without comment on PB whereas my most serious political comments cause either howls of laughter. derision or moderation.

    For example, I was rather pleased with coining Carola de Fenestrata as a name and I giggled every time I typed it but no one has remarked on it at all.

    Humour is very private, Roger.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AveryLP said:


    It rather depends who you believe was the target of the messaging.

    If the targets were illegal immigrants and kippers, we are left with the interesting question: what effect it will have on the voting intentions of those who are not the targets?

    Will ethnic minority voters, small-l liberals and even centrist Conservatives be repelled?

    Where are Lord Ashcroft's subsamples when you need them?

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2013
    AveryLP said:


    As for the NHS, we need simple improvement of outcomes and care quality, not a jihad. This is where Lansley and Hunt will be seen to have delivered in 2015.

    Lansley was not replaced because the Prime Minister shared your faith. Rather the opposite.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013

    AveryLP said:


    It rather depends who you believe was the target of the messaging.

    If the targets were illegal immigrants and kippers, we are left with the interesting question: what effect it will have on the voting intentions of those who are not the targets?

    Will ethnic minority voters, small-l liberals and even centrist Conservatives be repelled?

    Where are Lord Ashcroft's subsamples when you need them?

    Cameron and Osborne are not naturally abrasive characters, DCL. Osborne is combative and likes to win a political battle but it is the battle of outcomes and arguments that he is fighting.

    The British public find this all rather effete and uninspiring. They want a true fight where opponents have their noses rubbed in the dirt of defeat. They yearn for the clarity of belief and aggression of the late departed and saintly Margaret.

    Margaret would definitely have approved of the illegal immigrant detector vans and anyone who dared to oppose them on the grounds of taste and decency would have been labelled as "not one of us".

    And so it came to pass that Cameron and Osborne decided to import Lynton Crosby to take over their messaging.

    All that matters now is:

    Do a majority support the policies and actions? Yes.

    Are the nose of Tory opponents rubbed in the dirt of defeat? Yes.

    Do Cameron, Osborne and May appear "strong" as a result of the stunt? Yes

    It may not be my 'cup of tea' but it is what we are all going to be drinking between now and the general election.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:


    As for the NHS, we need simple improvement of outcomes and care quality, not a jihad. This is where Lansley and Hunt will be seen to have delivered in 2015.

    Lansley was not replaced because the Prime Minister shared your faith. Rather the opposite.
    Cameron used every ounce of political capital he possessed to force through Lansley's reforms.

    Somewhere along the line he even traded Lansley to get them through.

    And history is already beginning to be kind to the Lansley reforms. As we see from the 111 events they are beginning to work. Monolithic state provision of health services at inflated cost is being broken down into GP commissioned alternate sources of supply.

    The noise off left will continue but the main stage will see Lansley's posthumous triumph.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AveryLP said:



    And history is already beginning to be kind to the Lansley reforms. As we see from the 111 events they are beginning to work. Monolithic state provision of health services at inflated cost is being broken down into GP commissioned alternate sources of supply.

    The noise off left will continue but the main stage will see Lansley's posthumous triumph.

    Well, it's a view. Though I suspect you'll find most of the £100k+ medics who opposed Lansley are not on the left but, rather, vote for your lot.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013

    AveryLP said:



    And history is already beginning to be kind to the Lansley reforms. As we see from the 111 events they are beginning to work. Monolithic state provision of health services at inflated cost is being broken down into GP commissioned alternate sources of supply.

    The noise off left will continue but the main stage will see Lansley's posthumous triumph.

    Well, it's a view. Though I suspect you'll find most of the £100k+ medics who opposed Lansley are not on the left but, rather, vote for your lot.
    Well Dr. Sox was singing the praises of GP commissioning only a few days ago and, as a hospital consultant rather than a GP, you might have expected a different line.

    Now one swallow does not a summer make but I suspect there will be much 'resist then embrace' at the professional level. It will not be the politics but the outcomes that count.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AveryLP said:

    Margaret would definitely have approved of the illegal immigrant detector vans and anyone who dared to oppose them on the grounds of taste and decency would have been labelled as "not one of us".

    I doubt the dear leader would have been quite so sanguine at the risk of losing ethnic minority supporters. And was she not said to have preferred old Estonians to old Etonians in her Cabinets? Margaret Thatcher would surely have been courting the votes of grocers and shopkeepers, whatever their colour.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,314
    SkyNews - NHS Ward Ratings A 'Patient-Led Revolution'

    "The first results of a system allowing patients to rate the hospital ward or department they have been treated in are to be published later.

    Hundreds of thousands of patients have taken part in the NHS Friends and Family Test during April, May and June 2013.

    They were asked for their views after staying in hospital overnight or visiting an A&E department.

    It is the first time a national health service has published a single measure of patient satisfaction for every hospital.

    They all answered one simple question. "How likely are you to recommend our ward/A&E department to your friends and family if they needed similar care or treatment?"

    Tim Kelsey, NHS England's National Director for Patients and Information, said: "At the heart of the tragedy of Mid Staffordshire was one simple lesson: the NHS has got to do better at listening to patients and doing something about what they say.

    "This is a radical response, a potential game changer. It creates a direct conversation and gives NHS staff the opportunity to respond quickly to what they are being told.

    "We hope to encourage a patient-led revolution in healthcare, driven by the transparency, better information and public participation in design of services."

    The test was announced by David Cameron in January 2012 with the aim of giving patients a stronger voice when deciding whether their care is good enough."
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013

    AveryLP said:

    Margaret would definitely have approved of the illegal immigrant detector vans and anyone who dared to oppose them on the grounds of taste and decency would have been labelled as "not one of us".

    I doubt the dear leader would have been quite so sanguine at the risk of losing ethnic minority supporters. And was she not said to have preferred old Estonians to old Etonians in her Cabinets? Margaret Thatcher would surely have been courting the votes of grocers and shopkeepers, whatever their colour.
    Well the 47% who approved must have a fair number of non Conservative voters.

    Not sure they will all be Estonians. A fair few grocers and shopkeepers might be making up the numbers though.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    edited July 2013
    A book I'm hoping to read some time is "Gor Saga" by Maureen Duffy:

    http://www.maureenduffy.co.uk/novels.htm#gorsaga
This discussion has been closed.