Reality check for those who get (over) excited by PMQs:
Did you watch or see/hear any of Prime Minister’s Question Time on Wednesday this week? Yes,infull : 2 Yes, but only seen/heard clips, e.g. on the news : 7 No, but have seen it before : 32 No, have never seen it : 54 Don't know: 5
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There has been a spectacular amount of horsesh*t talked on this subject while I slept I see. This issue isnt about who lives where and deporting 3m people as the more silly remainers like to suggest, its about who is able to claim benefits, get free schooling for their kids, use the NHS etc.
If the government was to say that yes all EU nationals could stay if they are currently here, but as of the date of BrExit they were no longer eligible to claim benefits or tax credits, and absent a reciprocal agreement with the EU27 would have to pay to use our schools and hospitals, would that be acceptable ?
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There has been a spectacular amount of horsesh*t talked on this subject while I slept I see. This issue isnt about who lives where and deporting 3m people as the more silly remainers like to suggest, its about who is able to claim benefits, get free schooling for their kids, use the NHS etc.
If the government was to say that yes all EU nationals could stay if they are currently here, but as of the date of BrExit they were no longer eligible to claim benefits or tax credits, and absent a reciprocal agreement with the EU27 would have to pay to use our schools and hospitals, would that be acceptable ?
No. EU nationals have come here in good faith. We should not retrospectively change their position. Brexit means Brexit, and after A50 has been triggered it is perfectly reasonable to place conditions on those who come over after that date. But those who arrived before should not have their rights removed. We are a better country than that.
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
My point is that these people should not be part of a negotiation. And, yes, it is a moral issue. If the French and Germans do not see it as such, let them deal with headlines around the world about Brits being deported, and let them see what damage it does to their international standing.
Nicola Sturgeon’s speech to the David Hume Institute last night marked a change of direction in her Brexit argument. The First Minister has clearly decided that the dislocation of leaving the EU is simply not going to be enough to make a majority of Scots support independence. There was a small bounce for Yes in the polls immediately after the shock result last June, but No has consistently maintained a comfortable lead ever since.
Part of the problem is tens of thousands of 2014 Yes voters also backed Leave. Such voters remain bewildered by an SNP position that says Scotland must get out of one union (the UK), but stick with another (the EU). This is a major headache for Sturgeon because she’s basically promised her supporters another independence referendum in the next two years. So the SNP leader has gone back to what she knows best – desperately hunting around for fresh grievances to bolster support. This explains her extraordinary warning that a secret Tory plot to undo devolution is being executed under the cover of Brexit....
This type of Donald Trump -esque conspiracy theory might play well with the wilder fringes of the independence movement but it will do nothing to change the mind of a single No voter. Sturgeon is trying to reframe the Brexit debate as a conflict between a right-wing UK and a progressive Scotland. So far she is failing to do so.
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
My point is that these people should not be part of a negotiation. And, yes, it is a moral issue. If the French and Germans do not see it as such, let them deal with headlines around the world about Brits being deported, and let them see what damage it does to their international standing.
Or we could just stick a big sign saying 'Patsy' over UK government ministers' heads as we send them into negotiations with other countries.....
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
My point is that these people should not be part of a negotiation. And, yes, it is a moral issue. If the French and Germans do not see it as such, let them deal with headlines around the world about Brits being deported, and let them see what damage it does to their international standing.
Or we could just stick a big sign saying 'Patsy' over UK government ministers' heads as we send them into negotiations with other countries.....
I am afraid that I don't buy into the idea that committing to not throwing people out of the country who have come in good faith and with what they thought were guaranteed rights makes you a Patsy. Instead, I believe it makes you the kind of country that stands by its obligations and which is more likely to attract both investment and a continuing flow of high quality migrants. Countries that forcibly remove people after changing their legal standing tend not to be ones that do well internationally. I believe that France and Germany would very quickly find that out.
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
My point is that these people should not be part of a negotiation. And, yes, it is a moral issue. If the French and Germans do not see it as such, let them deal with headlines around the world about Brits being deported, and let them see what damage it does to their international standing.
While they laugh all the way to the bank with several billions they wont be paying out any more, while we have to cut services because we do. I can see that going down well on the doorstep, ever considered a career in politics
Or we could just stick a big sign saying 'Patsy' over UK government ministers' heads as we send them into negotiations with other countries.....
I am afraid that I don't buy into the idea that committing to not throwing people out of the country who have come in good faith and with what they thought were guaranteed rights makes you a Patsy. Instead, I believe it makes you the kind of country that stands by its obligations and which is more likely to attract both investment and a continuing flow of high quality migrants. Countries that forcibly remove people after changing their legal standing tend not to be ones that do well internationally. I believe that France and Germany would very quickly find that out.
There you go again with that "throwing people out" emotive horsesh*t.
No one will get thrown out, they just wont have free access to benefits, tax credits and health care as is the case of all non-EU migrants currently.
The idea that countries don't change visa rules all the time, and retrospectively, is fantasy land, and the idea that other countries will care, or that it will damage anyone's "international standing" is naive.
“While our prime minister has been quite clear that we wish to resolve the issue of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK as soon as possible, it is regrettable that Germany and France are using UK citizens in their countries as bargaining chips for the Brexit negotiations.”
If the French and German governments wish to play politics with the lives of real people, so be it. Aren't we bigger and better than that?
There are around a quarter of a million Brits living in France & Germany (two biggest EU destinations ex-Ireland, after Spain) - do we not owe at least as great a duty of care to them as we do to EU citizens resident here?
We do. And we should obviously look after them. But that is a separate issue. People who have come and made their homes here in good faith thinking that they had the full and permanent right to do so should not be seen as bargaining chips. We are much, much better than that. If the French and the Germans are not, then we will have to deal with that.
Ah, the 'morally superior' school of negotiation. How's that worked in the past with the EU?
My point is that these people should not be part of a negotiation. And, yes, it is a moral issue. If the French and Germans do not see it as such, let them deal with headlines around the world about Brits being deported, and let them see what damage it does to their international standing.
While they laugh all the way to the bank with several billions they wont be paying out any more, while we have to cut services because we do. I can see that going down well on the doorstep, ever considered a career in politics
Losing a lot of people who currently pay taxes is what tends to lead to cuts in services. You view EU migrants as a net cost to the UK. I don't. The evidence tends to support my argument, not yours.
Or we could just stick a big sign saying 'Patsy' over UK government ministers' heads as we send them into negotiations with other countries.....
I am afraid that I don't buy into the idea that committing to not throwing people out of the country who have come in good faith and with what they thought were guaranteed rights makes you a Patsy. Instead, I believe it makes you the kind of country that stands by its obligations and which is more likely to attract both investment and a continuing flow of high quality migrants. Countries that forcibly remove people after changing their legal standing tend not to be ones that do well internationally. I believe that France and Germany would very quickly find that out.
There you go again with that "throwing people out" emotive horsesh*t.
No one will get thrown out, they just wont have free access to benefits, tax credits and health care as is the case of all non-EU migrants currently.
The idea that countries don't change visa rules all the time, and retrospectively, is fantasy land, and the idea that other countries will care, or that it will damage anyone's "international standing" is naive.
There are no visa rules for EU immigrants currently. That is rather the point. And, of course, people can be thrown out once visa rules are applied to them.
Or we could just stick a big sign saying 'Patsy' over UK government ministers' heads as we send them into negotiations with other countries.....
I am afraid that I don't buy into the idea that committing to not throwing people out of the country who have come in good faith and with what they thought were guaranteed rights makes you a Patsy. Instead, I believe it makes you the kind of country that stands by its obligations and which is more likely to attract both investment and a continuing flow of high quality migrants. Countries that forcibly remove people after changing their legal standing tend not to be ones that do well internationally. I believe that France and Germany would very quickly find that out.
There you go again with that "throwing people out" emotive horsesh*t.
No one will get thrown out, they just wont have free access to benefits, tax credits and health care as is the case of all non-EU migrants currently.
The idea that countries don't change visa rules all the time, and retrospectively, is fantasy land, and the idea that other countries will care, or that it will damage anyone's "international standing" is naive.
There are no visa rules for EU immigrants currently. That is rather the point. And, of course, people can be thrown out once visa rules are applied to them.
The naivety is to believe that there would be no implications for our international standing.
Comments
Reality check for those who get (over) excited by PMQs:
Did you watch or see/hear any of Prime Minister’s Question Time on Wednesday this week?
Yes,infull : 2
Yes, but only seen/heard clips, e.g. on the news : 7
No, but have seen it before : 32
No, have never seen it : 54
Don't know: 5
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/9xjmrls68f/InternalResults_170224_PMQs_W.pdf
If the government was to say that yes all EU nationals could stay if they are currently here, but as of the date of BrExit they were no longer eligible to claim benefits or tax credits, and absent a reciprocal agreement with the EU27 would have to pay to use our schools and hospitals, would that be acceptable ?
https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/837149540188884992
Part of the problem is tens of thousands of 2014 Yes voters also backed Leave. Such voters remain bewildered by an SNP position that says Scotland must get out of one union (the UK), but stick with another (the EU). This is a major headache for Sturgeon because she’s basically promised her supporters another independence referendum in the next two years. So the SNP leader has gone back to what she knows best – desperately hunting around for fresh grievances to bolster support. This explains her extraordinary warning that a secret Tory plot to undo devolution is being executed under the cover of Brexit....
This type of Donald Trump -esque conspiracy theory might play well with the wilder fringes of the independence movement but it will do nothing to change the mind of a single No voter. Sturgeon is trying to reframe the Brexit debate as a conflict between a right-wing UK and a progressive Scotland. So far she is failing to do so.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-changes-tactics-brexit-9938961
No one will get thrown out, they just wont have free access to benefits, tax credits and health care as is the case of all non-EU migrants currently.
The idea that countries don't change visa rules all the time, and retrospectively, is fantasy land, and the idea that other countries will care, or that it will damage anyone's "international standing" is naive.
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/another-debate-on-immigration-how-about-starting-with-the-facts/