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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s approval ratings, fake news, leader ratings, and immig

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s approval ratings, fake news, leader ratings, and immigration – all in this week’s PB/Polling Matters Podcast

On this week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast Keiran is joined by Leo Barasi and Harry Carr (Head of Sky Data) to discuss Donald Trump’s approval rating and latest controversies, YouGov polling on ‘Fake News’ and the latest Polling Matters / Opinium survey which this week takes a look at immigration (see image above) and the approval ratings of Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn and other party leaders including (topically) UKIP leader Paul Nuttall.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    First :smiley:
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Second? God it's early!
  • Third! Like SLAB...... request to Mods - could you please include a direct link to the tables? I've searched in vain in the past on the Opinium website. Thanks.
  • Fourth.. Time to go and multiply.
    1x1=1
    2x2=4......
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?
  • fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    When a friend from Guernsey was involved in a serious accident in the UK the NHS were most assiduous in coming after them for the hundreds of thousands (mercifully covered by insurance) involved....
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited February 2017
    fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    Having watched a few debates on the issue recently, I was struck by the fact that the overall picture from those involved seemed to indicate that a robust infrastructure simple was not in place. Hence my query about the future NHS implications for Brexit. Surely that is what travel health insurance is for...
  • Good morning everyone.

    Just saw a clip of Kellyanne Conway being interviewed by Matt Lauer. She looked incredibly exhausted - and it's only three weeks or so into this administration. I felt pretty sorry for her.

    Morning Joe is actually going in on her more so than CNN!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lzlrh0gaAo
  • I suspect there's something for everyone in those figures there. But for me it's not too hard to work out the balance of public opinion: people will support immigration if they have confidence overall numbers are under control, and they are in control of type and quantity.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    I suspect there's something for everyone in those figures there. But for me it's not too hard to work out the balance of public opinion: people will support immigration if they have confidence overall numbers are under control, and they are in control of type and quantity.

    "Let them all come" and "Keep them all out" are the views of extremists at each end of the spectrum.
  • Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
  • Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
  • Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    it looks like she is one of Bill Cash's constituents
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    A shoo-in for POTY...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited February 2017

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
  • I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    I think Roger was saying that PBers are to the right of those polled.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,889

    fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    When a friend from Guernsey was involved in a serious accident in the UK the NHS were most assiduous in coming after them for the hundreds of thousands (mercifully covered by insurance) involved....
    Similar experience; my sister lives on Alderney and needed medical services which were well outside the capabilities of the States of Guernsey Health Services. She... or rather her Alderney GP ..... had to seek approval from the States Health Board for the expenditure.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    That the poll showed that the general public were more relaxed and reasonable about immigrants and immigration than I know the majotity of PB posters to be.
  • I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    you're very late, I was expecting it about 6 hours ago. Was beginning to think there couldn't be any bad news for the SNP today :)
  • RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    I think Roger was saying that PBers are to the right of those polled.
    I'd say they were pretty typical - if anything there has been robust refutation of the 'immigrants put pressure on the NHS' with many posters pointing out that the vast majority of immigrants are young, working age, net contributors - unlike the main consumers of NHS resources, the elderly & infirm....
  • Interesting results but some of the statements on which agreement or disagreement is sought are very leading.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    edited February 2017

    fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    When a friend from Guernsey was involved in a serious accident in the UK the NHS were most assiduous in coming after them for the hundreds of thousands (mercifully covered by insurance) involved....
    Similar experience; my sister lives on Alderney
    Well, I won't mention what the people of Guernsey call the people of Alderney then..... ;-)
  • Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    That the poll showed that the general public were more relaxed and reasonable about immigrants and immigration than I know the majotity of PB posters to be.
    I'm unsure that's the case. There are some very (ahem) noisy anti-immigrant posters - some of whom post some fairly extreme and one-eyed stuff. There are also more reasoned views, (or at least reasoned from my POV).

    The noisy extreme posts tend to get noticed over the more reasoned ones.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,889

    fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    When a friend from Guernsey was involved in a serious accident in the UK the NHS were most assiduous in coming after them for the hundreds of thousands (mercifully covered by insurance) involved....
    Similar experience; my sister lives on Alderney
    Well, I won't mention what the people of Guernsey call the people of Alderney then..... ;-)
    Pretty sure the feeling’s mutual!

    On topic, I suspect Southampton General, as the nearest English one to the Channel Islands is used to identifying non-NHS patients, and is probably good at it. I suspect......would welcome experienced opinion ....... that hospitals with few ‘overseas’ patients are less good.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    What the polling seems to show to me is the good sense of the British people and very little of the hysteria that seems to surround immigration in the media. So there are comfortable pluralities for immigration being a good thing generally, for immigration being essential to our public services and the need for immigrants to do work that Brits don't want to (interesting phrasing that question).

    There are outright majorities for current immigration being too high, for it adversely affecting the NHS and housing and for immigration making it more difficult for Brits to get a job. In my opinion that is an entirely correct assessment of the employment figures yesterday which showed that over the last year the number of people in employment had reached a new record but that more than 100% of the new jobs had been taken up by people born either in the EU (exc UK) or outside the EU (more the latter curiously enough).

    It is also consistent with record levels of employment being combined with very moderate wage growth of 2.6%. The supply of labour in this country has become almost infinitely elastic which allows growth but suppresses wages. The supply of labour in my view is also a major contributor to the poor productivity figures (up 0.3% in the quarter, roughly half the level of growth). There is little incentive to train staff when the skills wanted are readily supplied by immigration.

    There are roughly 1.6m people in this country looking for work, more than 4m self employed many precariously in the gig economy, several million more on zero hour contracts and many working part time who would prefer full time work. There is no shortage of labour. There may be a shortage of various skills but this under employment is far more persistent than it would normally be when employment is at such elevated levels. Many millions of our fellow citizens are thus excluded from the benefits of a growing economy.
  • I'm all in favour of health tourists being asked to pay for the costs of their treatment on the NHS. Any idea that this is going to make much of an impact on NHS funding is even more fanciful than imagining Leavers were ever going to get the government to pay an additional £350 million a week into the NHS after Brexit.
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    That the poll showed that the general public were more relaxed and reasonable about immigrants and immigration than I know the majotity of PB posters to be.
    I'm unsure that's the case. There are some very (ahem) noisy anti-immigrant posters - some of whom post some fairly extreme and one-eyed stuff. There are also more reasoned views, (or at least reasoned from my POV).

    The noisy extreme posts tend to get noticed over the more reasoned ones.
    Agree - there are a range of views on PB - some well to the left of the public's
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    No value for me. It's only happened two/three times (depending on whether you count Nixon or not) and it's a time-consuming, exhausting process at best. Moreover, no President has ever actually been ejected from office as a result - not even Clinton, who essentially admitted he was guilty of everything he was charged with.

    Also, as long as Mike Pence is veep, I think the Republicans would actually prefer Trump in the White House (shocking but true). Should there be a move against Pence, then we will know they are on manoeuvres against Trump (because that brings Paul Ryan into the equation as his successor).

    Unpopularity isn't a sign somebody will be removed. Remember, they have the luxury of exhausted, divided, discredited and leaderless opponents. Clinton (again) had shocking approval ratings in April 1992 - he actually had to nominate William Henry Harrison when asked for a president who had done less well in the time - but still recovered to win in 1996 because the Republicans were even more useless.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.

  • Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    PM's a geographer......what's 'anti-science' about Patterson? (Tredinnick's clearly away with the faeries...)
  • DavidL said:

    more than 100% of the new jobs had been taken up by people born either in the EU (exc UK) or outside the EU (more the latter curiously enough).

    that's a curious stat
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
  • DavidL said:

    What the polling seems to show to me is the good sense of the British people and very little of the hysteria that seems to surround immigration in the media. So there are comfortable pluralities for immigration being a good thing generally, for immigration being essential to our public services and the need for immigrants to do work that Brits don't want to (interesting phrasing that question).

    There are outright majorities for current immigration being too high, for it adversely affecting the NHS and housing and for immigration making it more difficult for Brits to get a job. In my opinion that is an entirely correct assessment of the employment figures yesterday which showed that over the last year the number of people in employment had reached a new record but that more than 100% of the new jobs had been taken up by people born either in the EU (exc UK) or outside the EU (more the latter curiously enough).

    It is also consistent with record levels of employment being combined with very moderate wage growth of 2.6%. The supply of labour in this country has become almost infinitely elastic which allows growth but suppresses wages. The supply of labour in my view is also a major contributor to the poor productivity figures (up 0.3% in the quarter, roughly half the level of growth). There is little incentive to train staff when the skills wanted are readily supplied by immigration.

    There are roughly 1.6m people in this country looking for work, more than 4m self employed many precariously in the gig economy, several million more on zero hour contracts and many working part time who would prefer full time work. There is no shortage of labour. There may be a shortage of various skills but this under employment is far more persistent than it would normally be when employment is at such elevated levels. Many millions of our fellow citizens are thus excluded from the benefits of a growing economy.

    The ONS, in its commentary on yesterday's figures, heads the relevant section "the labour market edges towards full capacity":

    http://ow.ly/PynZ3091iWq
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,646
    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    No value for me. It's only happened two/three times (depending on whether you count Nixon or not) and it's a time-consuming, exhausting process at best. Moreover, no President has ever actually been ejected from office as a result - not even Clinton, who essentially admitted he was guilty of everything he was charged with.

    Also, as long as Mike Pence is veep, I think the Republicans would actually prefer Trump in the White House (shocking but true). Should there be a move against Pence, then we will know they are on manoeuvres against Trump (because that brings Paul Ryan into the equation as his successor).

    Unpopularity isn't a sign somebody will be removed. Remember, they have the luxury of exhausted, divided, discredited and leaderless opponents. Clinton (again) had shocking approval ratings in April 1992 - he actually had to nominate William Henry Harrison when asked for a president who had done less well in the time - but still recovered to win in 1996 because the Republicans were even more useless.
    Plus... Impeachment will require Republicans to turn on Trump.
    Hard to see that happening within a year.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    No value for me. It's only happened two/three times (depending on whether you count Nixon or not) and it's a time-consuming, exhausting process at best. Moreover, no President has ever actually been ejected from office as a result - not even Clinton, who essentially admitted he was guilty of everything he was charged with.

    Also, as long as Mike Pence is veep, I think the Republicans would actually prefer Trump in the White House (shocking but true). Should there be a move against Pence, then we will know they are on manoeuvres against Trump (because that brings Paul Ryan into the equation as his successor).

    Unpopularity isn't a sign somebody will be removed. Remember, they have the luxury of exhausted, divided, discredited and leaderless opponents. Clinton (again) had shocking approval ratings in 1993 - he actually had to nominate William Henry Harrison when asked for a president who had done less well in the time - but still recovered to win in 1996 because the Republicans were even more useless.
    Those were Kieran's views too. I should have added that he did say he wouldn't have touched the Paddy Power bet with a baregepole
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    edited February 2017
    OT but interesting

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/02/copeland-byelection-tory-ground-campaign-problems.html

    The hotel room and coach hire budget appears to have been trimmed?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    edited February 2017

    DavidL said:

    What the polling seems to show to me is the good sense of the British people and very little of the hysteria that seems to surround immigration in the media. So there are comfortable pluralities for immigration being a good thing generally, for immigration being essential to our public services and the need for immigrants to do work that Brits don't want to (interesting phrasing that question).

    There are outright majorities for current immigration being too high, for it adversely affecting the NHS and housing and for immigration making it more difficult for Brits to get a job. In my opinion that is an entirely correct assessment of the employment figures yesterday which showed that over the last year the number of people in employment had reached a new record but that more than 100% of the new jobs had been taken up by people born either in the EU (exc UK) or outside the EU (more the latter curiously enough).

    It is also consistent with record levels of employment being combined with very moderate wage growth of 2.6%. The supply of labour in this country has become almost infinitely elastic which allows growth but suppresses wages. The supply of labour in my view is also a major contributor to the poor productivity figures (up 0.3% in the quarter, roughly half the level of growth). There is little incentive to train staff when the skills wanted are readily supplied by immigration.

    There are roughly 1.6m people in this country looking for work, more than 4m self employed many precariously in the gig economy, several million more on zero hour contracts and many working part time who would prefer full time work. There is no shortage of labour. There may be a shortage of various skills but this under employment is far more persistent than it would normally be when employment is at such elevated levels. Many millions of our fellow citizens are thus excluded from the benefits of a growing economy.

    The ONS, in its commentary on yesterday's figures, heads the relevant section "the labour market edges towards full capacity":

    http://ow.ly/PynZ3091iWq
    What they say is this:

    "Some measures raise questions about structural changes in the UK labour market. In particular, the proportion of part-time workers who cannot find full-time work is markedly above the long-run average. Combined with the increased share of part-time workers in the economy, this suggests that there may be resources in the labour market that firms can mobilise to increase output. Similarly, the underemployment rate – which captures employees who are available and would like to work more hours – at 8.1%, remains above its pre-crisis average of 6.7%."

    I would add the very large increase in self employment to those structural changes.
  • Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
    Maybe it's just artistic licence, but films and TV about WW2 show Churchill intervening on the side of scientists when requested to override bureaucratic obstacles in their paths. Radar and Enigma are certainly examples of this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    Unfortunately the wikipedia is quite vague on that front. It would be interesting to hear about it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
    I think it was simply that by the time the ME272 and V1 rockets were around, it was clear the war was already lost so there was nothing for Germany to lose. Conversely, as after 1943 it was when, rather than whether, the allies would win meant that it was better to concentrate on those things that would ultimately win them the war as there was nothing much to gain by gambling.

    The fact Hitler was also batpoo crazy about such things - in 1945 he believed someone who said they had invented a workable death ray, and ordered Speer to put it into production (which stopped abruptly when Speer pointed out that it was loosely based on a design from H G Wells and featured various components that never existed) - was I think a minor aside.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    fitalass said:

    "Our poll on immigration looks to take an in-depth view of public attitudes on the issue. Perhaps the most striking finding is that 68% think that ‘immigration places too much pressure on public services like housing and the NHS"

    I have been struck by the news that despite the recent debate on health tourism, the UK NHS still remains in no way properely equiped to deal with claiming back money for treating non UK NHS patients. The idea that the figures involved then meant that the problem could be ignored has surely been blown out of the water now we have voted for Brexit?? Surely as a matter of urgency, the UK NHS must now be prepared to implement a fair and robust system to reclaim health insurance costs from non UK patients from both within the EU and the wider world?

    There is no such thing as a UK NHS.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    He is just trying to prove Roger's point upthread
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    I hope that he isn't.

    There's much more likely to be fact-based real news in the Express.
    I wouldn't trust the Guardian to line my bird cage.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    Hardly a starting point!
  • malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    One wonders why Nicola hasn't asked for one then......

  • Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    PM's a geographer......what's 'anti-science' about Patterson? (Tredinnick's clearly away with the faeries...)
    Patterson is a Climate Change sceptic
    "Paterson got rid of 550 of his employees working for the Environment Agency on flood maintenance and preparation, slashed the number of his staff working on preparing the UK for the impacts of climate change, such as flooding events, from 38 to six and, according to a source, “wouldn’t even read a briefing from his team if it contained the words ‘climate change’”.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/uk-floods-owen-paterson_b_4767153.html
  • DavidL said:

    The ONS, in its commentary on yesterday's figures, heads the relevant section "the labour market edges towards full capacity":

    http://ow.ly/PynZ3091iWq

    What they say is this:

    "Some measures raise questions about structural changes in the UK labour market. In particular, the proportion of part-time workers who cannot find full-time work is markedly above the long-run average. Combined with the increased share of part-time workers in the economy, this suggests that there may be resources in the labour market that firms can mobilise to increase output. Similarly, the underemployment rate – which captures employees who are available and would like to work more hours – at 8.1%, remains above its pre-crisis average of 6.7%."

    I would add the very large increase in self employment to those structural changes.
    One thing that's often overlooked is that proportionately more native Brits are seeking work, which is part of the reason why employment is at record levels, unemployment is at a ten year low and yet underemployment remains higher than the pre-crisis average. The welfare reforms of the last government seem to have been a success on that front.

    The single biggest problem, as always in Britain, seems to me to be the education and skills of less able adults.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    On topic... I am quite surprised by the last question result.

    42% say immigration makes little difference.
    28% disagree... But presumably some of them think it makes a positive difference.

    Yet 65% think immigration is too high.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    What the polling seems to show to me is the good sense of the British people and very little of the hysteria that seems to surround immigration in the media. So there are comfortable pluralities for immigration being a good thing generally, for immigration being essential to our public services and the need for immigrants to do work that Brits don't want to (interesting phrasing that question).

    There are outright majorities for current immigration being too high, for it adversely affecting the NHS and housing and for immigration making it more difficult for Brits to get a job. In my opinion that is an entirely correct assessment of the employment figures yesterday which showed that over the last year the number of people in employment had reached a new record but that more than 100% of the new jobs had been taken up by people born either in the EU (exc UK) or outside the EU (more the latter curiously enough).

    http://ow.ly/PynZ3091iWq

    What they say is this:

    "Some measures raise questions about structural changes in the UK labour market. In particular, the proportion of part-time workers who cannot find full-time work is markedly above the long-run average. Combined with the increased share of part-time workers in the economy, this suggests that there may be resources in the labour market that firms can mobilise to increase output. Similarly, the underemployment rate – which captures employees who are available and would like to work more hours – at 8.1%, remains above its pre-crisis average of 6.7%."

    I would add the very large increase in self employment to those structural changes.
    Most of whom are very low paid as well, but it gets them access to benefits
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Wondering if there are any limits on what we are prepared to blame foreigners for and whether one day we'll take responsibility and fix our own problems.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
    Maybe it's just artistic licence, but films and TV about WW2 show Churchill intervening on the side of scientists when requested to override bureaucratic obstacles in their paths. Radar and Enigma are certainly examples of this.
    I watched the terrible Imitation Game (*) about Turing the other day, and it featured a letter sent directly to Churchill, and his response to save the program. It's hard to split memories of fact and fiction at times, but ISTR factual occasions when that really did happen.

    (*) An insult to Turing and all the other people who worked on breaking the codes, and especially the Poles.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    My conclusions; You really don't understand polling.

    The PB poll was commissioned by PB, among all UK adults, not among 'PB Posters'.....
    I did understand that! I must have expressed myself badly. Looking again I can see how my comment might have have seemed ambiguous.
    What meaning did you intend?
    That the poll showed that the general public were more relaxed and reasonable about immigrants and immigration than I know the majotity of PB posters to be.
    I'm unsure that's the case. There are some very (ahem) noisy anti-immigrant posters - some of whom post some fairly extreme and one-eyed stuff. There are also more reasoned views, (or at least reasoned from my POV).

    The noisy extreme posts tend to get noticed over the more reasoned ones.
    Agree - there are a range of views on PB - some well to the left of the public's
    Though a very small number compared to those well to the very right like your goodself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    Don't be silly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830

    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    One wonders why Nicola hasn't asked for one then......
    She has plenty of time to wait fir even more optimum moments.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    I hope that he isn't.

    There's much more likely to be fact-based real news in the Express.
    I wouldn't trust the Guardian to line my bird cage.
    The express is a comic , so if you are correct the Guardian must be really shocking
  • kle4 said:

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    Don't be silly.
    i should perhaps modify it to PB posters posting when I am awake in my time zone
  • Morning all.
    The supreme court has some vacancies.
    Is @TSE polishing his CV?
    http://www.cityam.com/259146/get-your-cv-ready-supreme-court-hiring-three-new-judges
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719

    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    One wonders why Nicola hasn't asked for one then......
    LOL, are you a chum of Kezia or Ruthie , seem to use the same script. Have patience it will be when it is in Scotland's interests not anyone else's.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    A good question indeed. I do hope when they rerun in Scotland it's not as close as quebecs second one, but hopefully consolidation can happen afterwards, if somehow we win.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    Hardly a starting point!
    Will be soon Rob, the clock is ticking
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968
    ydoethur said:

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
    I think it was simply that by the time the ME272 and V1 rockets were around, it was clear the war was already lost so there was nothing for Germany to lose. Conversely, as after 1943 it was when, rather than whether, the allies would win meant that it was better to concentrate on those things that would ultimately win them the war as there was nothing much to gain by gambling.

    The fact Hitler was also batpoo crazy about such things - in 1945 he believed someone who said they had invented a workable death ray, and ordered Speer to put it into production (which stopped abruptly when Speer pointed out that it was loosely based on a design from H G Wells and featured various components that never existed) - was I think a minor aside.
    An issue was Germany let programs that were too advanced go on for too long, when the potential pay-offs were in distant years. Whereas we realised very early on what we could and could not do: ISTR we actually put development of the jet engine on the back burner for a few years (*) during the war and concentrated on 'conventional' engines.

    There's also Tube Alloys, and the way we let that get subsumed into the Manhattan Project.

    (*) And not just by giving the project to Rover. ;)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if there are any limits on what we are prepared to blame foreigners for and whether one day we'll take responsibility and fix our own problems.

    You are wrong to point the finger at foreigners.
    We blame you lefties, who in turn accelerated immigration to "rub our noses in it".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227

    DavidL said:

    The ONS, in its commentary on yesterday's figures, heads the relevant section "the labour market edges towards full capacity":

    http://ow.ly/PynZ3091iWq

    What they say is this:

    "Some measures raise questions about structural changes in the UK labour market. In particular, the proportion of part-time workers who cannot find full-time work is markedly above the long-run average. Combined with the increased share of part-time workers in the economy, this suggests that there may be resources in the labour market that firms can mobilise to increase output. Similarly, the underemployment rate – which captures employees who are available and would like to work more hours – at 8.1%, remains above its pre-crisis average of 6.7%."

    I would add the very large increase in self employment to those structural changes.
    One thing that's often overlooked is that proportionately more native Brits are seeking work, which is part of the reason why employment is at record levels, unemployment is at a ten year low and yet underemployment remains higher than the pre-crisis average. The welfare reforms of the last government seem to have been a success on that front.

    The single biggest problem, as always in Britain, seems to me to be the education and skills of less able adults.
    I think that is a demographic advantage that we have, partly driven by immigration. Our country is somewhat younger than most of the EU with a greater proportion of the population being of working age.

    It does seem that the welfare reforms of the Coalition have significantly reduced structural unemployment. In particular the policies of ensuring those in work receive more than those out of it has driven people into at least qualifying part time work to secure the more generous in work benefits.

    I completely agree about education and skills but the fact remains that there is very little incentive to invest in training at present. Personally I would like to see double tax relief for such training so that twice what a firm invests in it can be set against tax.
  • On the subject of newspapers, Lord Neuberger has made his views on the coverage of the High Court decision in the Miller case known:

    http://app.ft.com/content/7d3668c2-f39f-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

    "over the top" is his verdict.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    I see Questiontime is from Glasgow this week, BBC will be bussing in Tories to prove it is a stronghold for Tories and the Union as usual. Audienc ewill eb a bunch of Toffs guaranteed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719

    Morning all.
    The supreme court has some vacancies.
    Is @TSE polishing his CV?
    http://www.cityam.com/259146/get-your-cv-ready-supreme-court-hiring-three-new-judges

    No fantasists need apply
  • ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    No value for me. It's only happened two/three times (depending on whether you count Nixon or not) and it's a time-consuming, exhausting process at best. Moreover, no President has ever actually been ejected from office as a result - not even Clinton, who essentially admitted he was guilty of everything he was charged with.

    Also, as long as Mike Pence is veep, I think the Republicans would actually prefer Trump in the White House (shocking but true). Should there be a move against Pence, then we will know they are on manoeuvres against Trump (because that brings Paul Ryan into the equation as his successor).

    Unpopularity isn't a sign somebody will be removed. Remember, they have the luxury of exhausted, divided, discredited and leaderless opponents. Clinton (again) had shocking approval ratings in April 1992 - he actually had to nominate William Henry Harrison when asked for a president who had done less well in the time - but still recovered to win in 1996 because the Republicans were even more useless.
    Surely GOPers would prefer Pence to Trump? Why do you think the GOP would prefer Trump (who has only become a Republican relatively recently) to Pence?
  • From the podcast: Leo Barasi "Sturgeon's numbers in Scotland are only about the same, slightly worse than May's nationally, which given there is narrative that Sturgeon is unbeatable I found interesting.."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    Aren't you a little uncomfortable with a candidate being arrested because of her manifesto?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719

    From the podcast: Leo Barasi "Sturgeon's numbers in Scotland are only about the same, slightly worse than May's nationally, which given there is narrative that Sturgeon is unbeatable I found interesting.."

    Any reason you have stopped your daily reports on NHS Scotland, statistics totally unable to be manipulated to support your bias these days perhaps.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    Er yeah!
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    Of the three you mention, two materially predate Churchill (look at Radar and 1940 for example) and the whole bouncing bomb stuff was ultimately, a vanity project of limited actual effect. That it was valuable for its publicity effect is a different point.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    A week until two by-elections, then just four days until the pre-season testing of Formula 1 finally kicks off. At last.
  • malcolmg said:

    From the podcast: Leo Barasi "Sturgeon's numbers in Scotland are only about the same, slightly worse than May's nationally, which given there is narrative that Sturgeon is unbeatable I found interesting.."

    Any reason you have stopped your daily reports on NHS Scotland, statistics totally unable to be manipulated to support your bias these days perhaps.
    Making stuff up.....desperate as usual - big fan of the SNP's business rates rises are you?

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15095120.Government_buildings_and_SNP_HQ_escape_rate_hikes/
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Morning all.
    The supreme court has some vacancies.
    Is @TSE polishing his CV?
    http://www.cityam.com/259146/get-your-cv-ready-supreme-court-hiring-three-new-judges

    What odds Dr Paul Nuttall?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    That would be unfair on the Express.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830

    On the subject of newspapers, Lord Neuberger has made his views on the coverage of the High Court decision in the Miller case known:

    http://app.ft.com/content/7d3668c2-f39f-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

    "over the top" is his verdict.

    Undoubtedly. Given how it was much calmer in the aftermath of the Supreme Court case I wonder how much of it was genuine, as there was much less toys thrown out of pram behaviour. The whole thing was dispiriting really, since while there were legal arguments against the high court decision, as shown by some of the justices not siding with the majority, most of the coverage ignored the actual questions or legal issues, on motivations of the claimant rather than actual impact. Which I guess shouldn't be surprising, but given how simply the government has dealt with the ruling, and I recall hearing that's how they'd deal with it, so it was planned for, while I'd expect the media to be more emotional and simple about it, I am very cynical about the politicians who whipped up the fervour.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,224

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    Canada has a proven and well-thought-through federal structure, whereas the UK doesn't, so the starting point isn't the same. I think implementing such a structure in the UK, with macroeconomic policy, defence and foreign affairs reserved to the centre, and everything else to the four nations, would be the best way to keep the Scots on board, if we want to.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    GeoffM said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if there are any limits on what we are prepared to blame foreigners for and whether one day we'll take responsibility and fix our own problems.

    You are wrong to point the finger at foreigners.
    We blame you lefties, who in turn accelerated immigration to "rub our noses in it".
    The right sure like to find scapegoats and blame, whilst ironically preaching personal responsibility for others.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734
    Freggles said:

    Morning all.
    The supreme court has some vacancies.
    Is @TSE polishing his CV?
    http://www.cityam.com/259146/get-your-cv-ready-supreme-court-hiring-three-new-judges

    What odds Dr Paul Nuttall?
    Conqueror of the European Union in General and in Stoke in Particular.
  • Fishing said:

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    Canada has a proven and well-thought-through federal structure, whereas the UK doesn't, so the starting point isn't the same. I think implementing such a structure in the UK, with macroeconomic policy, defence and foreign affairs reserved to the centre, and everything else to the four nations, would be the best way to keep the Scots on board, if we want to.
    That's the kind of thing we should have done years ago.
    Resistance from Whitehall to denuding their power?

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited February 2017
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    One wonders why Nicola hasn't asked for one then......
    She has plenty of time to wait fir even more optimum moments.
    That is the point.... Sturgeon doesn't have any more optimum moments after she and her party have thrown everything, including the kitchen sink of a continuing Tory majority at Westminster after the Brexit result... It has proved to be a busted flush... As have Sturgeon's personal ratings on the back that strategy.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Jonathan said:

    GeoffM said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if there are any limits on what we are prepared to blame foreigners for and whether one day we'll take responsibility and fix our own problems.

    You are wrong to point the finger at foreigners.
    We blame you lefties, who in turn accelerated immigration to "rub our noses in it".
    The right sure like to find scapegoats and blame, whilst ironically preaching personal responsibility for others.

    You're not a scapegoat when it is your fault.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    Fishing said:

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    Canada has a proven and well-thought-through federal structure, whereas the UK doesn't, so the starting point isn't the same. I think implementing such a structure in the UK, with macroeconomic policy, defence and foreign affairs reserved to the centre, and everything else to the four nations, would be the best way to keep the Scots on board, if we want to.
    Probably a bit late to Implement such a system, and of course there's the Northern Ireland problem, but it feels like it would have been the only way. I'm surprised we don't hear more about a potential federated United Kingdom, the FUK, I suppose because it's unclear how it might be structured exactly.

    Weren't labour promising a senate of the people and regions, an upper house with equal numbers for the four nations, in their manifesto? Rather preempting the outcome of the constitutional convention they wanted, but they were thinking at least.
  • Mr. Pubgoer, lefties want to create pathetic little fiefdoms (which worked so well elsewhere...), and I think the Conservatives are frit of emasculating Westminster in favour of England (though it's already happened for Scotland/Wales).

    An English Parliament is the most obvious and popular answer, but the media/political class seem to not even contemplate it.
  • Charles said:

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    Aren't you a little uncomfortable with a candidate being arrested because of her manifesto?
    Charles said:

    Roger said:



    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    indeed: this charming lady would probably win if PB formed the stoke electorate

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/arrested-stoke-on-trent-central-by-election-candidate-i-ve-done-nothing-wrong/story-30136133-detail/story.html
    Aren't you a little uncomfortable with a candidate being arrested because of her manifesto?
    they could perhaps rather have just asked her to remove the offending material.
  • kle4 said:

    On the subject of newspapers, Lord Neuberger has made his views on the coverage of the High Court decision in the Miller case known:

    http://app.ft.com/content/7d3668c2-f39f-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

    "over the top" is his verdict.

    Undoubtedly. Given how it was much calmer in the aftermath of the Supreme Court case I wonder how much of it was genuine, as there was much less toys thrown out of pram behaviour. The whole thing was dispiriting really, since while there were legal arguments against the high court decision, as shown by some of the justices not siding with the majority, most of the coverage ignored the actual questions or legal issues, on motivations of the claimant rather than actual impact. Which I guess shouldn't be surprising, but given how simply the government has dealt with the ruling, and I recall hearing that's how they'd deal with it, so it was planned for, while I'd expect the media to be more emotional and simple about it, I am very cynical about the politicians who whipped up the fervour.
    It was a genuine spasm, a flash of insight into the mindset of the Ben Tré Brexiters, who would leave nothing standing of this country in order to secure its exit from the EU.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    fitalass said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    I must have missed Scotslass breathless posting of the latest SindyRef poll which showed the inevitable march to independence continues no real change from the referendum.

    As Panelbase haven't got the tables up, we'll have to take Rev (sic) Stu's word for it that the sixth question they asked on Independence wasn't preceded by anything else which might skew the result.....

    Should Scotland be an Independent country (ex DK)
    Yes: 46
    No: 54

    On the EU question, when presented with 3 options:

    Sindy in the EU: 37
    Sindy out the EU: 11
    Scotland in UK, outside EU: 43

    Rev Stu adds the Sindy votes together to get a 'Sindy total' of 48. Two can play at that game - out the EU comes to 54....(which is equally rubbish...)

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/#more-91672

    Excellent starting point , only needs 4% for victory. Mangaged nearly 30% last time so very very promising.
    One wonders why Nicola hasn't asked for one then......
    She has plenty of time to wait fir even more optimum moments.
    That is the point.... Sturgeon doesn't have any more optimum moments after she and her party have thrown everything, including the kitchen sink of a continuing Tory majority at Westminster after the Brexit result... It has proved to be a busted flush... As have Sturgeon's personal ratings on the back that strategy.
    Admittedly I take the pessimistic view in these situations - as a unionist that the snp will remain for the foreseeable future the dominant party in Scotland, combined with increasing apathy about the union all over and an overdone sense of differences between us rather than similarities, makes the prospects for endurance of the union seem slim to me in the long term, even if is not as soon as I think - but I'd be wary ofcalling it a busted flush, particularly so early into the Brexit process.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,224
    edited February 2017

    Fishing said:

    Those sindy figures are still far too close for comfort in my opinion. It feels like its inevitable. Did Canada implement anything after their referendum that consolidated Quebec's position in Canada?

    Canada has a proven and well-thought-through federal structure, whereas the UK doesn't, so the starting point isn't the same. I think implementing such a structure in the UK, with macroeconomic policy, defence and foreign affairs reserved to the centre, and everything else to the four nations, would be the best way to keep the Scots on board, if we want to.
    That's the kind of thing we should have done years ago.
    Resistance from Whitehall to denuding their power?

    Partly. Partly I think also dislike of the significant extra costs it would impose, partly lack of interest or support in the dominant country, partly genuine distaste for diversity ("postcode lotteries", etc.), and partly one-party states in Scotland and, to a lesser extent, Wales, with different parties in NI, which gives no governing party an incentive to do much.
  • Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Very interesting podcast. For those with no time to listen.....Trump's approval ratings are tanking. He arrived with the worst figures on record and they've just got worse. There's 4/1 at Paddy Power that he'll be impeached within a year.....

    On fake news....people are pretty good at separating 'Daily Express' stories from real stories and on the whole peddling nasty stories about immigrants etc doesn't work.

    On PB's own poll...respondents views on immigration are mixed. On the whole a good thing but some reservations.

    My conclusions; PB posters are well to the right of the mean......

    Footnote; Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

    People are equally good at identifying the 'Guardian' stories from real news as well these days.
    Are you SERIOUSLY equating Guardian stories with ones in the Express?
    That would be unfair on the Express.
    Anyone with any sense realises that ALL media outlets have their own built in biases and agendas. They skew their stories and articles according to their political slant. It's ludicrous that intelligent posters on here still see want to believe that any newspaper or broadcaster is really anymore truthful than another.
    I treat Littlejohn with the same contempt as Toynbee. Both as extreme as each other, and unable to see the perspective of the other side.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    ydoethur said:

    Britain was lucky to have Churchill, who was interested in science, as our wartime PM.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38985425
    Reportedly he personally supported code breaking, radar and the bouncing bomb.
    Maybe a few more science graduates in the House of Commons wouldn't come amiss and fewer like Owen Patterson and David Tredinnick.

    I think there's more to the story than that. Hitler was also fairly interested in science, hence Germany's development of the super weapons, the jet engine and radar.

    I've read a great deal about Churchill over the years (far less about Hitler), and I wonder why Hitler okayed weapons systems that were far too advanced - the V-weapons probably helped Germany lose the war - whilst the UK were more hesitant. As an example, we didn't field our jet aircraft in combat until very near the end of the war, whilst Germany were throwing fragile rocket-planes against us.

    Yet Churchill was also the father of the tank in WW1, and Churchill sponsored the trenching machine Cultivator (i.e. Nellie) at the beginning of WW2.

    Was it simply the fact that we had American help, or was Churchill more canny than Hitler in choosing projects to go ahead?
    I think it was simply that by the time the ME272 and V1 rockets were around, it was clear the war was already lost so there was nothing for Germany to lose. Conversely, as after 1943 it was when, rather than whether, the allies would win meant that it was better to concentrate on those things that would ultimately win them the war as there was nothing much to gain by gambling.

    The fact Hitler was also batpoo crazy about such things - in 1945 he believed someone who said they had invented a workable death ray, and ordered Speer to put it into production (which stopped abruptly when Speer pointed out that it was loosely based on a design from H G Wells and featured various components that never existed) - was I think a minor aside.
    There was also a belief that they would defeat their enemies by 1942 so emphasis was placed on current production over future development. 1943 saw the increasing obsolescence of their Air Force and the hunt for wonder weapons which would have an immediate and decisive effect. The only weapon which I can reasonably think did this was the atomic bomb. Absent that military improvement has largely been evolution rather than revolution.
This discussion has been closed.