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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lib Dem local by-election roller-coaster continues with tw

SystemSystem Posts: 11,689
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lib Dem local by-election roller-coaster continues with two new gains – both from CON

Kingswood and Hazel Leys on Corby (Ind defence, elected as Labour, caused by disqualification of sitting member) Result: Labour 610 (65% +11%), Conservative 252 (27% +13%), Green Party 82 (9% -1%) Labour HOLD with a majority of 358 (38%) on a swing of 1% from Labour to Conservative

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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    First !
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    Second! Like Remain...
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    2nd. Like Fillon.
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    Cheers, for this, Mr. Hayfield.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265
    edited February 2017
    I see the Ratepayer guy who has agoraphobia held his seat.

    Edit: with a swing from Tory to him.
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    FPT:
    Jobabob said:

    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    scotslass said:

    Carlotta

    Oh dear the news from German and independence support surging in Scotland - your world is starting to fall apart and all of your old certaintiesand prejudices with it.

    Never mind have a drink put a bet of the Lib/Dems to win something.

    So SindyRef2 nailed on then?

    Should Scotland leave the UK and set up its own currency?
    For sure, after a suitable period using our existing currency that we have a share in. Nice transition period to allow our money to be repatriated.
    You've got a fortnight. Time to change the cash machines over.
    Anyone can use the pound and as we are joint owners we can even more easily use it as long as we wish.
    Comfort yourself with that delusion Malc. All UK parties (except the Nats) have said unequivocally 'No Way'. The Pound is a UK institution. You leave the UK, you leave the Pound. You don't get to dictate here. Currency is THE issue to get resolved before Scotland has a hope of independence.
    Guernsey isn't in the UK and it uses Sterling.
    No it doesn't. It uses the Guernsey pound which is at parity to the UK pound, but it is not legal tender in the UK...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    I see the Ratepayer guy who has agoraphobia held his seat.

    Edit: with a swing from Tory to him.

    His constituents verdict is in, Skype for the council meetings it is.
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    Mr. Borough, for a man scared of markets, PB must be hellish. :p
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    Or 8th like the Tories in the by-election table
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Pulpstar said:

    I see the Ratepayer guy who has agoraphobia held his seat.

    Edit: with a swing from Tory to him.

    His constituents verdict is in, Skype for the council meetings it is.
    Get rid of all town halls, and force them to all Skype.

    Personally I find Skype video calling rather strange. I hate video calling.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    edited February 2017

    Or 8th like the Tories in the by-election table

    Not in voteshare and of course UKIP also gained a seat last night despite their being a LD candidate
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    The Pointing At Pot-holes party having their moment in the sun.

    Let's see how things stack up after a couple of Parliamentary by-elections...
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Do these By-elections suggest that Tories are not on 45% ?

    And libdems on more than 8%. Guess we will see in May locals. Have a feeling they are able to send all of their activists to one ward and bombard it whereas won't be abe to do that with all out local elections.
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    nunu said:

    Do these By-elections suggest that Tories are not on 45% ?

    And libdems on more than 8%. Guess we will see in May locals. Have a feeling they are able to send all of their activists to one ward and bombard it whereas won't be abe to do that with all out local elections.

    Libs will definitely be higher than 8% at May elections imho.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    edited February 2017
    Given the period 2010 to 2015 saw the worst Liberal election performances since 1970, the only way was up. However if you asked them in 2015 whether they would trade losing power at Westminster for gaining a few more places on council planning and refuse committees not sure they would have agreed!
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    Mr. Borough, for a man scared of markets, PB must be hellish. :p

    Very droll, MR Dancer.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029

    I see the Ratepayer guy who has agoraphobia held his seat.

    Edit: with a swing from Tory to him.

    The Tory voteshare was actually up there but the Labour voteshare fell
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    nunu said:

    Do these By-elections suggest that Tories are not on 45% ?

    And libdems on more than 8%. Guess we will see in May locals. Have a feeling they are able to send all of their activists to one ward and bombard it whereas won't be abe to do that with all out local elections.

    Libs will definitely be higher than 8% at May elections imho.
    Post Article 50 world? Who knows. Maybe there are more flat-earthers out there than logic would suggest. But they are going to go into those elections as the Party of Rejoin.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited February 2017
    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
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    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I'm not sure - it is a small detail in the grander scheme of things, something that has become abundantly clear since Brexit. I kind of wish Lamb or Clegg was in charge from a personal ideological perspective - but Farron is a fantastic campaigner and we'll do very well in May.
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    edited February 2017
    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.
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    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
    I think tuition fees have definitely been put into perspective by Brexit frankly.
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    Mr. Pulpstar, UKIP falling off and Corbyn, not to mention the EU result, do make the strategic landscape better for the Lib Dems than they could have reasonably expected.

    That said, I agree entirely that Lamb would be better than Farron.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    45,000 or so across all the agencies etc. But yes, on enormously fat pensions mostly.

    Informal meetings between British and European officials have already witnessed blazing rows.

    Its going to be bare bones BrExit as I have been saying for some time.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Oh I agree. I was talking about local government where for election after election they lost more than half the wards they had sitting councillors in. A calamity for a party built on local activism, not the country.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    It has been the norm that parties in government have been hollowed out in local government given our tendency to wish to protest etc. It happened to the Tories up to 97 and to Labour thereafter. For Labour to be the second largest loser of seats in the second term of opposition when they started from a low base is shockingly poor. And in May they are going to lose well over 100 councillors in Scotland alone.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited February 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
    Introduction of a regulated cannabis market for the UK.

    Also Clegg was quite clear. He wanted a BETTER Brexit than the one May was offering ^_~
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    edited February 2017
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    45,000 or so across all the agencies etc. But yes, on enormously fat pensions mostly.

    Informal meetings between British and European officials have already witnessed blazing rows.

    Its going to be bare bones BrExit as I have been saying for some time.
    No it will be a last minute compromise which the EU is adept at. Why agree today that which can be stitched up at 2 minutes to midnight tomorrow?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
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    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    Absolutely the fact that the Lib Dems essentially refused to accept themselves as the government gave them the worst of both worlds. The Tories were able to take credit for the good - like raising personal allowances which was a Lib Dem policy that Osborne gladly stole and claimed as his own. While their claims to be opposition didn't wash with opponents who went for a real opposition. So they didn't please either fans or opponents of government.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,080

    45,000 or so across all the agencies etc. But yes, on enormously fat pensions mostly.

    Informal meetings between British and European officials have already witnessed blazing rows.

    Its going to be bare bones BrExit as I have been saying for some time.
    No it will be a last minute compromise which the EU is adept at. Why agree today that which can be stitched up at 2 minutes to midnight tomorrow?
    As the deal needs to be ratified by the Parliament, the only thing that can be done at 2 minutes to midnight between the governments is extend the talks.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,738
    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.
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    45,000 or so across all the agencies etc. But yes, on enormously fat pensions mostly.

    Informal meetings between British and European officials have already witnessed blazing rows.

    Its going to be bare bones BrExit as I have been saying for some time.
    No it will be a last minute compromise which the EU is adept at. Why agree today that which can be stitched up at 2 minutes to midnight tomorrow?
    As the deal needs to be ratified by the Parliament, the only thing that can be done at 2 minutes to midnight between the governments is extend the talks.
    Midnight has been set at October next year which will provide the requisite time to get it ratified by our Parliament, the European Parliament, the Council etc while giving notice that we won't be taking part in the 2019 European Parliamentary Elections.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
    Introduction of a regulated cannabis market for the UK.

    Also Clegg was quite clear. He wanted a BETTER Brexit than the one May was offering ^_~
    No. Clegg just wants to ensure a deal where his various EU pensions are going to get paid....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,080
    FF43 said:

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    I wouldn't worry about that. Our best friend the US will keep the WTO in line and make sure all the members smooth our path...
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    We will also be 60bn better off, which pays a lot of tariffs ;)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    Albeit the UK government would also receive sums for tariffs on EU exports to the UK
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Mortimer said:

    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
    The only thing I would agree with from any of the Liberal commentators here is that Norman Lamb would be a 100% improvement on the ridiculous Tim Farron. He does at least come across as being a grown up.
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
    Introduction of a regulated cannabis market for the UK.

    Also Clegg was quite clear. He wanted a BETTER Brexit than the one May was offering ^_~
    I thought that the Lib.Dems had proposed a referendum on the Leave terms once they've been negotiated. Not a re-run of the June referendum.

    So, no mandate has been ignored.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    Jason said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
    The only thing I would agree with from any of the Liberal commentators here is that Norman Lamb would be a 100% improvement on the ridiculous Tim Farron. He does at least come across as being a grown up.
    Don't agree. Lamb may be the more credible minister, but that isn't really relevant right now. Of the people available Farron was clearly the right choice for the task at hand.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    Tarriffs are paid by importers, FYI.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    We will also be 60bn better off, which pays a lot of tariffs ;)
    If the EU really wanted to humiliate us they could impose a special UK only tariff hypothecated to clear the unpaid bill. If they were being really vengeful they could target industries located in heavily leave voting areas.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    IanB2 said:

    Jason said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
    The only thing I would agree with from any of the Liberal commentators here is that Norman Lamb would be a 100% improvement on the ridiculous Tim Farron. He does at least come across as being a grown up.
    Don't agree. Lamb may be the more credible minister, but that isn't really relevant right now. Of the people available Farron was clearly the right choice for the task at hand.
    Cometh the time to jump up and down like a puppy, making excitable noises...cometh the man.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2017
    I think a fair division of assets and liabilities is reasonable for both Brexit and a putative Scexit. Most UK liaibilities in the EU are contingent (loan guarantees etc) - not requiring cash now, and minimally at risk unless the EU actually comes apart. On the assets side however we have paid a very significant % of the EU's net positive funding over recent decades and have a very reasonable claim to the same % of the value of eg buildings that we have paid for but won't in future gain benefit from. An accountant or a lawyer would very likely conclude that they owe us cash now for our share of assets whilst we owe them a continued exposure but no cash for potential future claims.
    (unless, of course, the said accountant or lawyer is from one of the 27...)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    edited February 2017

    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    We will also be 60bn better off, which pays a lot of tariffs ;)
    If the EU really wanted to humiliate us they could impose a special UK only tariff hypothecated to clear the unpaid bill. If they were being really vengeful they could target industries located in heavily leave voting areas.
    The UK would of course then reciprocate with a special EU only tariff
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    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    Don't you mean EU importers will pay substantial tariffs on imports from the UK?
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017

    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    We will also be 60bn better off, which pays a lot of tariffs ;)
    If the EU really wanted to humiliate us they could impose a special UK only tariff hypothecated to clear the unpaid bill. If they were being really vengeful they could target industries located in heavily leave voting areas.
    No they could not, that would be in violation of WTO agreements.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
    Introduction of a regulated cannabis market for the UK.

    Also Clegg was quite clear. He wanted a BETTER Brexit than the one May was offering ^_~
    I thought that the Lib.Dems had proposed a referendum on the Leave terms once they've been negotiated. Not a re-run of the June referendum.

    So, no mandate has been ignored.
    That would be fine, as long as it was a second vote ONLY amongst those who voted LEAVE originally. Now, if only you could tell me who those were...I'd show you a voting system that wasn't fit for purpose.
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    And now you're in excellent company! ;-)
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    There is more delivery, voter contact and general staying in touch by the Lib Dems than any other party.

    Saying WHAT, precisely? Ooooh, look, a pot-hole outside 18, Acacia Avenue. We could fill that if we had some councillors!

    Name a policy the public currently associates with the LibDems, apart from ignoring the democratic mandate to leave the EU.
    Introduction of a regulated cannabis market for the UK.

    Also Clegg was quite clear. He wanted a BETTER Brexit than the one May was offering ^_~
    I thought that the Lib.Dems had proposed a referendum on the Leave terms once they've been negotiated. Not a re-run of the June referendum.

    So, no mandate has been ignored.
    They are also perpetuating the political (if not legal) fantasy that Article 50 is reversible (especially at the last moment) and we have a choice between the negotiation or Remaining. Even in the doubtful even the courts find this legal, there isn't the faintest chance that all 27 EU partners will sweat blood over our leaving terms for a couple of years and then let us just change our minds (with the risk we might then give notice again and try for another 2 years)

    There is also the reality of where the EU will be in 2 years time, believing it has got rid of the brake on integration (us) it will have forged ahead with new measures that will be completely unacceptable to even moderate remainers in the UK. See Tusk's speech last week.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/10/trump-security-chief-discussed-election-hacking-sanctions-with-russia-report

    What is going on between Trump and Russia? Some talk of Senators putting together a veto proof majority to prevent him from lifting sanctions... Now his adviser cant recall definitely not discussing them with the Russians?
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    The voting trend does suggest that the LDs will win back quite a lot of their 2015 losses at the next GE. Currently this isn't ringing any alarm bells at CCHQ because the opposition is so split: the Tories should be able to pick up some seats where Labour is losing votes to Ukip, LibDems and Greens. And this is probably true even if Labour finally dumps Corbyn, since Labour's splits over Brexit (which May has exploited with willing assistance from JC) are making voters confused over what it stands for. Of course at some point during the negotiations the Tories will also start to fight in earnest over Brexit - that will be May's real test.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
    Yes. I'm one of them.
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    Mortimer said:

    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
    "... what is the end point of the local government base strategy?"
    Is there such a thing? If there's an election surely the thing for a political party to do is to fight it, win it and wield power - at whatever level that may be. If there's a Parliamentary by-election going fight that too. Haven't the Lib Dems been doing well in those also?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    Barnesian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
    Yes. I'm one of them.
    The complete reverse of me who voted LD at a general election for the first time in 2015 and am now back with the Tories
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    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    The lib dems will do stonkingly well in May.
    The remain vote is more motivated to come out and vote and this will create a differential turnout effect in low turnout areas.
    As for next year they must be odds on now to take back Kingston and Richmond councils in london and will probably do some major damage in Camden.
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,788
    Patrick said:

    I think a fair division of assets and liabilities is reasonable for both Brexit and a putative Scexit. Most UK liaibilities in the EU are contingent (loan guarantees etc) - not requiring cash now, and minimally at risk unless the EU actually comes apart. On the assets side however we have paid a very significant % of the EU's net positive funding over recent decades and have a very reasonable claim to the same % of the value of eg buildings that we have paid for but won't in future gain benefit from. An accountant or a lawyer would very likely conclude that they owe us cash now for our share of assets whilst we owe them a continued exposure but no cash for potential future claims.
    (unless, of course, the said accountant or lawyer is from one of the 27...)
    Be careful, you're using the Alex Salmond argument....
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    "So apart from the Lib Dems' current totemic policy, what do the Lib Dems stand for?"

    The question comprehensively misses the point.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited February 2017
    Patrick said:

    I think a fair division of assets and liabilities is reasonable for both Brexit and a putative Scexit. Most UK liaibilities in the EU are contingent (loan guarantees etc) - not requiring cash now, and minimally at risk unless the EU actually comes apart. On the assets side however we have paid a very significant % of the EU's net positive funding over recent decades and have a very reasonable claim to the same % of the value of eg buildings that we have paid for but won't in future gain benefit from. An accountant or a lawyer would very likely conclude that they owe us cash now for our share of assets whilst we owe them a continued exposure but no cash for potential future claims.
    (unless, of course, the said accountant or lawyer is from one of the 27...)
    All valid points imo, and certainly adds a little context to the liabilities claim that up till now, has looked decidedly bleak. After all is said and done I doubt we’ll get a rebate, but the astronomical figures being banded around may not be quite as high as suggested. – How odd that this only becomes an issue now, but not mentioned at all when tallying up the true £cost to the UK for EU membership.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I thought people might be amused by this quote. Can anyone guess (without googling!) who said it and when?

    No lesson seems to be so deeply inculcated by the experience of life that you should never trust experts. If you believe doctors, nothing is wholesome: if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent: if you believe the soldiers, nothing is safe. They all require their strong wine diluted by a very large admixture of insipid common sense

    Experts, eh!
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
    Yes. I'm one of them.
    The complete reverse of me who voted LD at a general election for the first time in 2015 and am now back with the Tories
    I think you are unusual unless you are under 23 and it was your first time vote. Not many voted for the LibDems for the first time in 2015.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited February 2017
    timmo said:

    The lib dems will do stonkingly well in May.
    The remain vote is more motivated to come out and vote and this will create a differential turnout effect in low turnout areas.
    As for next year they must be odds on now to take back Kingston and Richmond councils in london and will probably do some major damage in Camden.

    2000 voters voted Lib Dem in a Brinsworth by-election near me. A staggering number for a leave area by-election, and as far from Richmond/Kingston as you can get. I'm not sure there isn't a place the Lib Dems won't do well.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Or 8th like the Tories in the by-election table

    What is it as a percentage of seats held. That would be a more relevant analysis. Suspect UKIP and Labour doing worse on that basis (although the LibDems still doing well).
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Dadge said:

    The voting trend does suggest that the LDs will win back quite a lot of their 2015 losses at the next GE. Currently this isn't ringing any alarm bells at CCHQ because the opposition is so split: the Tories should be able to pick up some seats where Labour is losing votes to Ukip, LibDems and Greens. And this is probably true even if Labour finally dumps Corbyn, since Labour's splits over Brexit (which May has exploited with willing assistance from JC) are making voters confused over what it stands for. Of course at some point during the negotiations the Tories will also start to fight in earnest over Brexit - that will be May's real test.

    Like to list those "quite a lot of their 2015 losses" the LibDems will recover?

    If you want to see what happens to LibDem seats they win in by-elections then lose in general elections, have a look at Newbury.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbury_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
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    FF43 said:

    Ironically, if we "fall back on WTO rules"* because of disagreement over exit payments we will pay substantial sums to the EU in the form of tariffs on our exports.

    * NB those rules also need to be agreed with the EU, and others.

    We will also be 60bn better off, which pays a lot of tariffs ;)
    It's unlikely Britain would be £60billion better off in such circumstances. There would be some form of adjudication of the sum due and it's unlikely that adjudication would be zero. Britain would not be likely to default on debts due under treaty obligations, especially when it was seeking to negotiate lots of new treaties with other countries.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    Dadge said:

    The voting trend does suggest that the LDs will win back quite a lot of their 2015 losses at the next GE. Currently this isn't ringing any alarm bells at CCHQ because the opposition is so split: the Tories should be able to pick up some seats where Labour is losing votes to Ukip, LibDems and Greens. And this is probably true even if Labour finally dumps Corbyn, since Labour's splits over Brexit (which May has exploited with willing assistance from JC) are making voters confused over what it stands for. Of course at some point during the negotiations the Tories will also start to fight in earnest over Brexit - that will be May's real test.

    The LDs will likely win some Tory Remain seats at the next election yes, though the Tories will likely win some Labour Leave seats to make up
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2017
    sarissa said:

    Patrick said:

    I think a fair division of assets and liabilities is reasonable for both Brexit and a putative Scexit. Most UK liaibilities in the EU are contingent (loan guarantees etc) - not requiring cash now, and minimally at risk unless the EU actually comes apart. On the assets side however we have paid a very significant % of the EU's net positive funding over recent decades and have a very reasonable claim to the same % of the value of eg buildings that we have paid for but won't in future gain benefit from. An accountant or a lawyer would very likely conclude that they owe us cash now for our share of assets whilst we owe them a continued exposure but no cash for potential future claims.
    (unless, of course, the said accountant or lawyer is from one of the 27...)
    Be careful, you're using the Alex Salmond argument....
    It is precisely the same argument. But with the caveat that when I talk about assets I am talking about hard paid for actual accountable assets - whereas Salmond is citing notions. The Pound is NOT an asset. A share of a building worth X Pounds IS an asset. Same argument. Very different applicability.
    Scotland should get all the physical assets in Scotland and its share of UK wide assets such as submarines. Institutions are not Assets, they are assets. See?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jason said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jason said:

    Awww bless. The Liberals salivating over local council by elections again. Next there'll be threads predicting GE landlsides. Tim Farron as PM. Bless.

    Well quite.

    What I don't understand is - what is the end point of the local government base strategy?

    It never translates into securing anything like a parliamentary majority. With the SNP in situ it won't even be likely to see a LD 3rd party in the near future.
    The only thing I would agree with from any of the Liberal commentators here is that Norman Lamb would be a 100% improvement on the ridiculous Tim Farron. He does at least come across as being a grown up.
    I supported Lamb over Farron in the leadership, but was impressed by both at the hustings. More to the point, they differed mostly in style rather than substance. Farron loves grassroots campaigning and has fired up the activists. All politics is local, as we see in the byelections. Farron needs to come to a better Brexit position, but as with Labour that will be history by the next election.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a pretty dull roller coaster that only has ups.

    Putting that to one side the Lib Dems are weaker in local government than they have been for a couple of generations and have a lot of room to recover from the calamity of the Coalition.

    Calamity of the coalition ?

    It was the one of the best governments we'll ever have - & I've concluded that the Lib Dems played a massive part in that.
    Resulting in an 86% drop in the number of LD seats, I think they could understandably see that as a disaster ;)

    Mr. Pulpstar, do you think the Lib Dems made a mistake in the way they approached public relations during the Coalition? There seemed to be an emphasis on preventing the Conservatives from wickedness rather than claiming credit for good policies.

    I dont think the whole "opposition in government" washed with the voters, who mostly seemed to take the view that if you are in government (in whatever form) you carry the can for its actions. They probably would have got more mileage with the voters by bigging up their successes in government, but it would have gone down very badly with an activist base somewhat to the left of the parliamentary party.
    It is also forgotten how unpopular what Clegg got up to in government was with a lot of LibDem activists - many of whom resigned. I guess they are coming back now.
    Yes. I'm one of them.
    The complete reverse of me who voted LD at a general election for the first time in 2015 and am now back with the Tories
    I think you are unusual unless you are under 23 and it was your first time vote. Not many voted for the LibDems for the first time in 2015.
    I am certainly over 23. Normally I vote Tory but Clegg's LD Party was one I could vote for unlike Kennedy and Farron's LD Party though I recognise I am in quite a small minority
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    timmo said:

    The lib dems will do stonkingly well in May.
    The remain vote is more motivated to come out and vote and this will create a differential turnout effect in low turnout areas.
    As for next year they must be odds on now to take back Kingston and Richmond councils in london and will probably do some major damage in Camden.

    There wont be a remain vote after the end of next month, there will be a leave vote and a rejoin the full fat EU vote.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Good luck to the first UK politician who claims it will be "too expensive" to leave the EU. They'll enjoy explaining to the voters how they got us to that point....
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    timmo said:

    The lib dems will do stonkingly well in May.
    The remain vote is more motivated to come out and vote and this will create a differential turnout effect in low turnout areas.
    As for next year they must be odds on now to take back Kingston and Richmond councils in london and will probably do some major damage in Camden.

    There wont be a remain vote after the end of next month, there will be a leave vote and a rejoin the full fat EU vote.
    Remarkable how impervious some are to political reality.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,029

    Dadge said:

    The voting trend does suggest that the LDs will win back quite a lot of their 2015 losses at the next GE. Currently this isn't ringing any alarm bells at CCHQ because the opposition is so split: the Tories should be able to pick up some seats where Labour is losing votes to Ukip, LibDems and Greens. And this is probably true even if Labour finally dumps Corbyn, since Labour's splits over Brexit (which May has exploited with willing assistance from JC) are making voters confused over what it stands for. Of course at some point during the negotiations the Tories will also start to fight in earnest over Brexit - that will be May's real test.

    Like to list those "quite a lot of their 2015 losses" the LibDems will recover?

    If you want to see what happens to LibDem seats they win in by-elections then lose in general elections, have a look at Newbury.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbury_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
    The LDs held Newbury in 1997 after the 1993 by election
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    I thought people might be amused by this quote. Can anyone guess (without googling!) who said it and when?

    No lesson seems to be so deeply inculcated by the experience of life that you should never trust experts. If you believe doctors, nothing is wholesome: if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent: if you believe the soldiers, nothing is safe. They all require their strong wine diluted by a very large admixture of insipid common sense

    Experts, eh!

    LOL. That Goveism was a hyper accurate moron detector.
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    Awesome. First good laugh of the day, cheers.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    http://www.civitas.org.uk/reports_articles/potential-post-brexit-tariff-costs-for-eu-uk-trade/

    Our analysis shows that if the UK leaves the EU without a trade deal UK exporters could face the potential impact of £5.2 billion in tariffs on goods being sold to the EU. However, EU exporters will also face £12.9 billion in tariffs on goods coming to the UK.

    The biggest impact will be on exports of goods relating to vehicles, with tariffs in the region of £1.3 billion being applied to UK car-related exports going to the EU. This compares to £3.9 billion for the EU, including £1.8 billion in tariffs being applied to German car-related exports.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,810
    Appropos of nothing, I have discovered LGBT terminology has changed once again. The Green Party manifesto was the first place I ever saw LGBTIQ used, and didn't see it many times since them, but on a work circular I discover the proper term is now LGBTIQA.

    Definitely becoming an unwieldy acronym, and it was unpronounceable already, which was ok when sounding out 4 letters.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    As a result of the death earlier this year of Lord Lyell there will be a by-election for his replacement as an elected hereditary peer.

    For this election all current members of the House of Lords are entitled to vote, so a larger electorate than normal for these by-elections.

    Candidates' statements are published on 1 March and voting takes place on the 21 March.

    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2017/Notice-by-election-07-02-17.pdf
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,810

    timmo said:

    The lib dems will do stonkingly well in May.
    The remain vote is more motivated to come out and vote and this will create a differential turnout effect in low turnout areas.
    As for next year they must be odds on now to take back Kingston and Richmond councils in london and will probably do some major damage in Camden.

    There wont be a remain vote after the end of next month, there will be a leave vote and a rejoin the full fat EU vote.
    I might take some time for the full reality of remaining options (eg leave and rejoin) to filter through.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Good luck to the first UK politician who claims it will be "too expensive" to leave the EU. They'll enjoy explaining to the voters how they got us to that point....
    And unless these are penalty payments which would not be payable if we stayed in (which is not a claim anyone is making) it becomes very very difficult to simultaneously rubbish 350m a week claims and endorse 60bn ones.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    the LD surge in by elections is remarkable and as remarkable as their lack of progress in opinion polls for the National Govt
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    Charles said:

    I thought people might be amused by this quote. Can anyone guess (without googling!) who said it and when?

    No lesson seems to be so deeply inculcated by the experience of life that you should never trust experts. If you believe doctors, nothing is wholesome: if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent: if you believe the soldiers, nothing is safe. They all require their strong wine diluted by a very large admixture of insipid common sense

    Experts, eh!

    Sounds sort of Churchillian. Inter-war years?
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kle4 said:

    Appropos of nothing, I have discovered LGBT terminology has changed once again. The Green Party manifesto was the first place I ever saw LGBTIQ used, and didn't see it many times since them, but on a work circular I discover the proper term is now LGBTIQA.

    Definitely becoming an unwieldy acronym, and it was unpronounceable already, which was ok when sounding out 4 letters.

    So why not add S for straight, making the acronym both non discriminating and superfluous?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    the LD surge in by elections is remarkable and as remarkable as their lack of progress in opinion polls for the National Govt

    I would take real votes over hypothetical ones all day long. Let the voters get into good habits of throwing out the Tories.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    kle4 said:

    Appropos of nothing, I have discovered LGBT terminology has changed once again. The Green Party manifesto was the first place I ever saw LGBTIQ used, and didn't see it many times since them, but on a work circular I discover the proper term is now LGBTIQA.

    Definitely becoming an unwieldy acronym, and it was unpronounceable already, which was ok when sounding out 4 letters.

    Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Intersex Queer, but what does the "A" stand for ?
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good luck to the first UK politician who claims it will be "too expensive" to leave the EU. They'll enjoy explaining to the voters how they got us to that point....
    And unless these are penalty payments which would not be payable if we stayed in (which is not a claim anyone is making) it becomes very very difficult to simultaneously rubbish 350m a week claims and endorse 60bn ones.
    So a reasonably likely and perfectly acceptable outcome is for us to leave with no deal, revert to WTO tariffs - and no money from us to them.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    The Pointing At Pot-holes party having their moment in the sun.
    Let's see how things stack up after a couple of Parliamentary by-elections...

    Indeed, Mr Mark. What are the potholes like in Devon at this time of the year? You Tories are onto a loser, I think!
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    PClipp said:

    The Pointing At Pot-holes party having their moment in the sun.
    Let's see how things stack up after a couple of Parliamentary by-elections...

    Indeed, Mr Mark. What are the potholes like in Devon at this time of the year? You Tories are onto a loser, I think!
    We fill them with LibDem leafletters....
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    I'm a lawyer, and I can tell you I do not understand why the assumption is being made that the UK has a share - at all - in either the assets or liabilities in the EU at present, such that we can receive and/or be required to pay when we leave.

    I can certainly understand why as a matter of the exit agreement and/or ongoing relationship we might take on some liabilities and claim certain payments, but I don't see how we're at that position yet. I don't think any payments due, or owed, will bare much resemblance to the assets and liabilities as they stand now.

    I suspect large parts will be ignored to netted off completely, leaving the UK probably with a net payment now (which we may forego as a bribe) and a liability into the future for pensions but that discussion as I say will be very different from this £60bn or €30bn or whatever.
This discussion has been closed.