In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
She has apologised but her diary is full which when you think she is in Philadelphia on Thursday, the White House on Friday and meeting with Erdogan in Turkey on Saturday and a visit to China rather underlines it
I think Theresa May will be travelling extensively over the coming months as she meets leaders of Countries, not just in Europe, but worldwide
It certainly is an all consuming job .I think the USA system of 8 years as POTUS is correct..Should be similar in Britian .However I do think many people are not taking the Irish border problem seriously enough when we leave the EU.
I think it is one of the big issues along with EU citizens in UK but somehow I cannot see a hard border being the answer in Ireland
The one thing that is lacking is patience but it is understandable as the uncertainty does effect lives. That is why those who want to delay the process are so wrong as we need to get on with it fast
Ireland - Trump to the left, Brexit to the right...stuck in the middle with EU.
A belated hurrah for Gina Miller and the Supreme court. It does seem that logic has a place in our governance.
Certainly hurrah for the Supreme Court.
Miller is just a sad Remainer desperate to stop Brexit (it made her sick remember) by any means possible and too thick to realise that in the long run she has probably made it more straightforward.
This result is great as it reduces the power of the executive, neuters the threats from the Scots Parliament and puts no specific restrictions on Brexit beyond quite rightly saying it must be started by Parliament. All round a very good day for democracy.
The sovereignty of Parliament is supreme.
What if Parliament through an amendment to the A50 bill says the final deal must be put to a referendum ?
It would rather self defeating given that such a referendum would not prevent Brexit. It would simply mean we left without a deal.
That is where you are wrong. There is no provision in the EU referendum act which says that the result is binding.
Another court case!
Would not go anywhere the Courts. Failing to actually leave the EU would result in a constitutional crisis and civil disobedience.
By civil disobedience, do you mean rowdy marches or something violent with pitchforks? If the latter, they'll be treated as rioting and put down with exemplary jail sentences.
Imagine 7-8 million marching.
Apart from here, I know about 15 leavers - more than half have said to me (without prompting) that they would march in the event of not leaving the EU.
"However, Labour hopes one possible amendment to the article 50 bill could be to force the government to return to the EU if the deal is voted down, rather than leaving without an agreement. If that amendment were to attract wide political support, the two-year exit that ministers hope for could prove difficult to achieve."
This will not be against the letter or the spirit of the Brexit vote.
I thought there was no way back after triggering A50?
Has anyone actually confirmed that ? In any case, this will not be about Remaining in the EU. This will about re-negotiation.
That can be either a legal question or a political question. Politically if Britain convincingly said "it's all been a mistake, we'd like to forget the whole thing" the rest of the EU would probably agree. But they'd want to know that Britain really had changed its mind and that was the end of it. They wouldn't want to stretch things out forever while Britain faffed around. In practice I think you'd need a new referendum.
But I think a new referendum would probably produce the same result as the old one since the voters don't like the EU much.
In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
She has apologised but her diary is full which when you think she is in Philadelphia on Thursday, the White House on Friday and meeting with Erdogan in Turkey on Saturday and a visit to China rather underlines it
I think Theresa May will be travelling extensively over the coming months as she meets leaders of Countries, not just in Europe, but worldwide
It certainly is an all consuming job .I think the USA system of 8 years as POTUS is correct..Should be similar in Britian .However I do think many people are not taking the Irish border problem seriously enough when we leave the EU.
I think it is one of the big issues along with EU citizens in UK but somehow I cannot see a hard border being the answer in Ireland
The one thing that is lacking is patience but it is understandable as the uncertainty does effect lives. That is why those who want to delay the process are so wrong as we need to get on with it fast
Ireland - Trump to the left, Brexit to the right...stuck in the middle with EU.
It will be a tragedy if these events destabilise the North and South of Ireland.
But I think a new referendum would probably produce the same result as the old one since the voters don't like the EU much.
It depends how convincingly they'd been shown that there really isn't a better option for us. If Trump visibly cools on us after this initial opening it might do the trick. I still think a key factor will be how he reacts to his first meeting with Merkel.
In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
She has apologised but her diary is full which when you think she is in Philadelphia on Thursday, the White House on Friday and meeting with Erdogan in Turkey on Saturday and a visit to China rather underlines it
I think Theresa May will be travelling extensively over the coming months as she meets leaders of Countries, not just in Europe, but worldwide
It certainly is an all consuming job .I think the USA system of 8 years as POTUS is correct..Should be similar in Britian .However I do think many people are not taking the Irish border problem seriously enough when we leave the EU.
I think it is one of the big issues along with EU citizens in UK but somehow I cannot see a hard border being the answer in Ireland
The one thing that is lacking is patience but it is understandable as the uncertainty does effect lives. That is why those who want to delay the process are so wrong as we need to get on with it fast
Ireland - Trump to the left, Brexit to the right...stuck in the middle with EU.
It will be a tragedy if these events destabilise the North and South of Ireland.
It would be terrible and due to the high stakes reason has to prevail on all sides
In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
She has apologised but her diary is full which when you think she is in Philadelphia on Thursday, the White House on Friday and meeting with Erdogan in Turkey on Saturday and a visit to China rather underlines it
I think Theresa May will be travelling extensively over the coming months as she meets leaders of Countries, not just in Europe, but worldwide
It certainly is an all consuming job .I think the USA system of 8 years as POTUS is correct..Should be similar in Britian .However I do think many people are not taking the Irish border problem seriously enough when we leave the EU.
I think it is one of the big issues along with EU citizens in UK but somehow I cannot see a hard border being the answer in Ireland
The one thing that is lacking is patience but it is understandable as the uncertainty does effect lives. That is why those who want to delay the process are so wrong as we need to get on with it fast
Ireland - Trump to the left, Brexit to the right...stuck in the middle with EU.
Who are threatening tax harmonisation
They can't do that without a new treaty. The Irish aren't completely helpless.
Hadn't realised that it was the job of the Irish Parliament to scrutinise her!
They probably have some awkward questions about borders...
My guess is that the 75% of Irish agri-businesses that rely on EU contributions to stay solvent might be a major concern. After all, they are many billions short, all of a sudden.
Perhaps they are wondering which major EU country will advocate for low corporation taxes?
@faisalislam: Away from S. Court - Health Secretary Hunt said NHS/ social care would "fall over" without help of 148000 EU workers pic.twitter.com/k9j83DMEVX
@faisalislam: ... at same Health committee on NHS & Brexit Hunt also said expects UK to leave European Medicines Agency (its based in London, employs 900)
@faisalislam: ... Hunt said he wanted close relationship with EMA post Brexit, but would appear to confirm it's leaving London. Dublin has already bid...
@faisalislam: location of E Medicines Agency in London was also noted by Japan Government Brexit memo as a reason why JP pharma companies located in U.K.
A belated hurrah for Gina Miller and the Supreme court. It does seem that logic has a place in our governance.
Certainly hurrah for the Supreme Court.
Miller is just a sad Remainer desperate to stop Brexit (it made her sick remember) by any means possible and too thick to realise that in the long run she has probably made it more straightforward.
This result is great as it reduces the power of the executive, neuters the threats from the Scots Parliament and puts no specific restrictions on Brexit beyond quite rightly saying it must be started by Parliament. All round a very good day for democracy.
The sovereignty of Parliament is supreme.
What if Parliament through an amendment to the A50 bill says the final deal must be put to a referendum ?
It would rather self defeating given that such a referendum would not prevent Brexit. It would simply mean we left without a deal.
That is where you are wrong. There is no provision in the EU referendum act which says that the result is binding.
Another court case!
Would not go anywhere the Courts. Failing to actually leave the EU would result in a constitutional crisis and civil disobedience.
By civil disobedience, do you mean rowdy marches or something violent with pitchforks? If the latter, they'll be treated as rioting and put down with exemplary jail sentences.
Imagine 7-8 million marching.
Apart from here, I know about 15 leavers - more than half have said to me (without prompting) that they would march in the event of not leaving the EU.
Marching is fine. I was one of 3 million who marched in London about Iraq. Many are marching about Remain. But it makes no difference. Nick Palmer has explained that it hardened the attitude of MPs who didn't want to be bullied by a crowd, no matter how big.
"However, Labour hopes one possible amendment to the article 50 bill could be to force the government to return to the EU if the deal is voted down, rather than leaving without an agreement. If that amendment were to attract wide political support, the two-year exit that ministers hope for could prove difficult to achieve."
This will not be against the letter or the spirit of the Brexit vote.
I thought there was no way back after triggering A50?
Has anyone actually confirmed that ? In any case, this will not be about Remaining in the EU. This will about re-negotiation.
That can be either a legal question or a political question. Politically if Britain convincingly said "it's all been a mistake, we'd like to forget the whole thing" the rest of the EU would probably agree. But they'd want to know that Britain really had changed its mind and that was the end of it. They wouldn't want to stretch things out forever while Britain faffed around. In practice I think you'd need a new referendum.
But I think a new referendum would probably produce the same result as the old one since the voters don't like the EU much.
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
Whatever you do and however easy you make it - someone will complain.
What's the big issue then? It is free to get ID, and all you would need is an ID to vote?
Because the poorest communities are badly served by locations where you can get ID, and work jobs that do not offer paid time off. Or any non-federal holiday time off.
The choice is to lose half, or even a whole day's pay (seriously some communities are hat badly served by ID issuing locations that it is a full day travel their and back on public transport) or even risk being fired from their job to get voter ID.
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
I agree. Cameron's attempted renegotiation, the subsequent vote, and the reaction to it by the EU27, represent a repudiation of the 'two-speed Europe' concept. If we want to change course now, it will have to be on the basis of truly embracing what the EU is all about.
Hadn't realised that it was the job of the Irish Parliament to scrutinise her!
They probably have some awkward questions about borders...
My guess is that the 75% of Irish agri-businesses that rely on EU contributions to stay solvent might be a major concern. After all, they are many billions short, all of a sudden.
Perhaps they are wondering which major EU country will advocate for low corporation taxes?
How do you get to that number?
I read it a week or so ago on an Irish trade website. It's a google "Ireland Brexit", and was the day of May's speech.
The German farming community are also desperate for free trade - something like a €3bn surplus in direct trade with the UK. I was especially surprised by this.
@bbclaurak: Hear Brexit debates may run til midnight-lots of time being scheduled -cynic cd suggest govt wants Brexit rebels to talk themselves hoarse
By my calcs May has 315 votes she can rely on in almost all divisons.
Given abstentions, unless she has major Tory rebellions by the New Bastards the Government should get their way on the Bill, unless the whips and May are very clumsy and overplay their hand.
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
I agree. Cameron's attempted renegotiation, the subsequent vote, and the reaction to it by the EU27, represent a repudiation of the 'two-speed Europe' concept. If we want to change course now, it will have to be on the basis of truly embracing what the EU is all about.
So, if we want to change course of a federal political union we have to sign up to federal political union?
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
I agree. Cameron's attempted renegotiation, the subsequent vote, and the reaction to it by the EU27, represent a repudiation of the 'two-speed Europe' concept. If we want to change course now, it will have to be on the basis of truly embracing what the EU is all about.
A belated hurrah for Gina Miller and the Supreme court. It does seem that logic has a place in our governance.
Certainly hurrah for the Supreme Court.
Miller is just a sad Remainer desperate to stop Brexit (it made her sick remember) by any means possible and too thick to realise that in the long run she has probably made it more straightforward.
This result is great as it reduces the power of the executive, neuters the threats from the Scots Parliament and puts no specific restrictions on Brexit beyond quite rightly saying it must be started by Parliament. All round a very good day for democracy.
The sovereignty of Parliament is supreme.
What if Parliament through an amendment to the A50 bill says the final deal must be put to a referendum ?
It would rather self defeating given that such a referendum would not prevent Brexit. It would simply mean we left without a deal.
That is where you are wrong. There is no provision in the EU referendum act which says that the result is binding.
Another court case!
Would not go anywhere the Courts. Failing to actually leave the EU would result in a constitutional crisis and civil disobedience.
By civil disobedience, do you mean rowdy marches or something violent with pitchforks? If the latter, they'll be treated as rioting and put down with exemplary jail sentences.
Imagine 7-8 million marching.
Apart from here, I know about 15 leavers - more than half have said to me (without prompting) that they would march in the event of not leaving the EU.
Marching is fine. I was one of 3 million who marched in London about Iraq. Many are marching about Remain. But it makes no difference. Nick Palmer has explained that it hardened the attitude of MPs who didn't want to be bullied by a crowd, no matter how big.
Do you really think the referendum vote could be ignored?
Stupid fuss over article 50. I love Trump because he would just sign an executive order. EU countries have lot more to lose than UK. Fuck 'em, let's leave now, let the bankers leave London for Frankfurt - no one wants them - let the liberal elite cry into their soup.Control the borders, stop accepting narrow minded shite from backward religions and let's believe in ourselves.
Bankers are going nowhere. - higher taxes and Financial Transaction Tax
I know. I work amongst the "bankers" and they are going nowhere. We will keep the chinless wonders, putting up house prices, gumming up our roads with 4 x 4s. Let' em go. Fuck the lot of them. Independence Day, can't come soon enough.
In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
She has apologised but her diary is full which when you think she is in Philadelphia on Thursday, the White House on Friday and meeting with Erdogan in Turkey on Saturday and a visit to China rather underlines it
I think Theresa May will be travelling extensively over the coming months as she meets leaders of Countries, not just in Europe, but worldwide
It certainly is an all consuming job .I think the USA system of 8 years as POTUS is correct..Should be similar in Britian .However I do think many people are not taking the Irish border problem seriously enough when we leave the EU.
I think it is one of the big issues along with EU citizens in UK but somehow I cannot see a hard border being the answer in Ireland
The one thing that is lacking is patience but it is understandable as the uncertainty does effect lives. That is why those who want to delay the process are so wrong as we need to get on with it fast
Ireland - Trump to the left, Brexit to the right...stuck in the middle with EU.
Who are threatening tax harmonisation
They can't do that without a new treaty. The Irish aren't completely helpless.
I understand Germany has called a meeting this week to discuss it
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
I agree. Cameron's attempted renegotiation, the subsequent vote, and the reaction to it by the EU27, represent a repudiation of the 'two-speed Europe' concept. If we want to change course now, it will have to be on the basis of truly embracing what the EU is all about.
Which is why it will never happen.
It will never happen while the UK still exists in its present form.
I very much doubt the EU would want to continue with us as members on the same terms as we had before. Why would you want such a disruptive and resentful member back in knowing they would do everything they could to frustrate your plans and would probably try to leave again in the not too distant future?
I agree. Cameron's attempted renegotiation, the subsequent vote, and the reaction to it by the EU27, represent a repudiation of the 'two-speed Europe' concept. If we want to change course now, it will have to be on the basis of truly embracing what the EU is all about.
100% agree. Which is why it's not going to happen.
In all of this the dynamic in Europe has changed dramatically this week with the election of Trump on a pro UK and pro UK trade deal while at the same time marginalising the EU.
His recent statements confirmed that he will only do deals with Germany, France etc on a Country by Country basis and will not trade with the EU as a block.
I do believe that this has opened an opportunity for a sensible deal between tbe EU and the UK and now we are going ahead we need as a nation to be confident and outgoing and to stop the sniping
Notice that Trump has no meeting planned with Merkel until the G7 in May
From RTE ,British Prime Minister Theresa May has declined an invitation from Enda Kenny to address the Dail while on an official visit to Ireland .Why would she do that ?
If Theresa is in Ireland only for a short time (eg <1 day) she would spend her time better talking face to face with Irish senior politicians than giving a speech to the Dail.
@faisalislam: Away from S. Court - Health Secretary Hunt said NHS/ social care would "fall over" without help of 148000 EU workers pic.twitter.com/k9j83DMEVX
@faisalislam: ... at same Health committee on NHS & Brexit Hunt also said expects UK to leave European Medicines Agency (its based in London, employs 900)
@faisalislam: ... Hunt said he wanted close relationship with EMA post Brexit, but would appear to confirm it's leaving London. Dublin has already bid...
@faisalislam: location of E Medicines Agency in London was also noted by Japan Government Brexit memo as a reason why JP pharma companies located in U.K.
"However, Labour hopes one possible amendment to the article 50 bill could be to force the government to return to the EU if the deal is voted down, rather than leaving without an agreement. If that amendment were to attract wide political support, the two-year exit that ministers hope for could prove difficult to achieve."
This will not be against the letter or the spirit of the Brexit vote.
I thought there was no way back after triggering A50?
Has anyone actually confirmed that ? In any case, this will not be about Remaining in the EU. This will about re-negotiation.
That can be either a legal question or a political question. Politically if Britain convincingly said "it's all been a mistake, we'd like to forget the whole thing" the rest of the EU would probably agree. But they'd want to know that Britain really had changed its mind and that was the end of it. They wouldn't want to stretch things out forever while Britain faffed around. In practice I think you'd need a new referendum.
But I think a new referendum would probably produce the same result as the old one since the voters don't like the EU much.
There is no going back.
It was clear before the vote what we were in for if we voted Remain: the expectation from the rest of the EU was that we'd shut up, and commit ourselves to the European project.
Juncker himself: no further renegotiation or reform.
A stream of integration initiatives would have been announced over subsequent months, and that's before we got to whether the 'Deal' ever made it into a treaty without be scuppered by MEPs, and, even if it had, how the ECJ would have interpreted its provisions over time.
I've never been prouder of this country than when we voted to Leave on 23rd June.
@faisalislam: Away from S. Court - Health Secretary Hunt said NHS/ social care would "fall over" without help of 148000 EU workers pic.twitter.com/k9j83DMEVX
@faisalislam: ... at same Health committee on NHS & Brexit Hunt also said expects UK to leave European Medicines Agency (its based in London, employs 900)
@faisalislam: ... Hunt said he wanted close relationship with EMA post Brexit, but would appear to confirm it's leaving London. Dublin has already bid...
@faisalislam: location of E Medicines Agency in London was also noted by Japan Government Brexit memo as a reason why JP pharma companies located in U.K.
A belated hurrah for Gina Miller and the Supreme court. It does seem that logic has a place in our governance.
Certainly hurrah for the Supreme Court.
Miller is just a sad Remainer desperate to stop Brexit (it made her sick remember) by any means possible and too thick to realise that in the long run she has probably made it more straightforward.
This result is great as it reduces the power of the executive, neuters the threats from the Scots Parliament and puts no specific restrictions on Brexit beyond quite rightly saying it must be started by Parliament. All round a very good day for democracy.
The sovereignty of Parliament is supreme.
What if Parliament through an amendment to the A50 bill says the final deal must be put to a referendum ?
It would rather self defeating given that such a referendum would not prevent Brexit. It would simply mean we left without a deal.
That is where you are wrong. There is no provision in the EU referendum act which says that the result is binding.
Another court case!
Would not go anywhere the Courts. Failing to actually leave the EU would result in a constitutional crisis and civil disobedience.
The United Kingdom will no longer be a member state of the European Union. The referendum will be respected... by dissolving the UK.
You seem to alter between saying Brexit cannot and will not ever happen, and that it will but will end the UK.
Comments
Apart from here, I know about 15 leavers - more than half have said to me (without prompting) that they would march in the event of not leaving the EU.
But I think a new referendum would probably produce the same result as the old one since the voters don't like the EU much.
@faisalislam: ... at same Health committee on NHS & Brexit Hunt also said expects UK to leave European Medicines Agency (its based in London, employs 900)
@faisalislam: ... Hunt said he wanted close relationship with EMA post Brexit, but would appear to confirm it's leaving London. Dublin has already bid...
@faisalislam: location of E Medicines Agency in London was also noted by Japan Government Brexit memo as a reason why JP pharma companies located in U.K.
The choice is to lose half, or even a whole day's pay (seriously some communities are hat badly served by ID issuing locations that it is a full day travel their and back on public transport) or even risk being fired from their job to get voter ID.
The German farming community are also desperate for free trade - something like a €3bn surplus in direct trade with the UK. I was especially surprised by this.
Well, it's a view.
I just don't see it.
NEW THREAD
It was clear before the vote what we were in for if we voted Remain: the expectation from the rest of the EU was that we'd shut up, and commit ourselves to the European project.
Juncker himself: no further renegotiation or reform.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/76459/jean-claude-juncker-says-no-kind-renegotiation-uk
A stream of integration initiatives would have been announced over subsequent months, and that's before we got to whether the 'Deal' ever made it into a treaty without be scuppered by MEPs, and, even if it had, how the ECJ would have interpreted its provisions over time.
I've never been prouder of this country than when we voted to Leave on 23rd June.
Nuttall 20 points ahead poll lead!