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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NightHawks is now open

SystemSystem Posts: 12,183
edited July 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NightHawks is now open

A new poll says three-quarters of us are monarchists, with the new royal baby expected to increase the Windsors’ popularity. But republicans are not giving up – on the contrary, in fact

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  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Coffee x 2 thanks
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JackW said:

    Coffee x 2 thanks

    With fresh cream please.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    @ScreamingEagles posted - The Australia were doomed from the moment I backed them to win this test match

    And your prediction to help my nerves mr eagles ;-)

    Mr eagles posted - England could declare first thing in the morning and they'd have enough to win.

    It doesn't fill me with confidence mr eagles ;-)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Cameron Heckled At Olympic Park

    http://news.sky.com/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Good evening, everyone.

    I'll try and see about getting the racing review up on pb2 and the enormo-haddock blog.

    It sounds like Vettel reckons the tyres make little difference compared to the old ones:
    http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/117211.html
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Link 13: As usual, the scaremongering al-beeb ignores the latest research into fracking in favour of selling tickets on the Outrage Bus. Instead, consider some real science published today:
    A landmark federal study on hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, shows no evidence that chemicals from the natural gas drilling process moved up to contaminate drinking water aquifers at a western Pennsylvania drilling site, the Department of Energy told The Associated Press.

    After a year of monitoring, the researchers found that the chemical-laced fluids used to free gas trapped deep below the surface stayed thousands of feet below the shallower areas that supply drinking water, geologist Richard Hammack said.

    Although the results are preliminary — the study is still ongoing — they are a boost to a natural gas industry that has fought complaints from environmental groups and property owners who call fracking dangerous.

    Drilling fluids tagged with unique markers were injected more than 8,000 feet below the surface, but were not detected in a monitoring zone 3,000 feet higher. That means the potentially dangerous substances stayed about a mile away from drinking water supplies.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57594498/study-finds-fracking-chemicals-didnt-pollute-water-ap/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Thanks for that post, Mr. M.

    I caught a little of the enws (Sky, I think) where they had two talking head on about fracking. The anti chap was British, the pro was American, and the one against it suggested we'd need 100,000 wells... which seems rather a lot.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    @hendopolis: MAIL: Charles in NHS Homeopathy row #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers http://t.co/rm32sFKWUd

    Chinless chump who believes in homeopathy lobbied by chinless chump who believes in homeopathy.

    All I can say is that it is a pity that Prince Charles and Jeremy Hunt haven't taken a scientific evidential approach.

    I just wish they had they followed the same academic line to health which Lebo, Norpoth and Sir Roderick have taken to the prediction of electoral outcomes.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Anyone know why these threads are called 'Nighthawks'? Just curious.

    On a political note, I can't help but feel that much of the analysis on the tough Tory position from article 16 is pretty spot on. It's hard to see Labour doing worse than they did in 2010, or UKIP not making at least some gains. Given that, the Tories need to either do a hell of a job on Labour or pull something else out of the bag (massive Tory turnout?) to do better than another coalition or straight defeat for them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,774
    Quincel said:

    Anyone know why these threads are called 'Nighthawks'? Just curious.

    On a political note, I can't help but feel that much of the analysis on the tough Tory position from article 16 is pretty spot on. It's hard to see Labour doing worse than they did in 2010, or UKIP not making at least some gains. Given that, the Tories need to either do a hell of a job on Labour or pull something else out of the bag (massive Tory turnout?) to do better than another coalition or straight defeat for them.

    Nighthawks is based on this cartoon by Edward Hopper (which Marf adapted for PB)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawks
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited July 2013
    Picking up on the Welsh article on nighthawks: agree can't see independence ( short of a major oil strike) west of Offa's dike for a generation plus as even a serious debating point. Leanne Wood generally out of depth IMO but right, to be fair, on central analysis that "it's the economy stupid " and Wales is just too bloody weak. Cardiff, Monmouthshire, the Vale of Glamorgan and maybe parts of the N E are not a million miles from UK average comparables or even a bit above but the rest is around Portugal or thereabouts.

    The article is right that the calibre of both Labour and Tories here ain't bad either as talent does seem alive and well in Cardiff Bay. Don't agree with much of Carwyn's world view but you can't deny he's "good" and Wales does well by him. Oddly the Tories right from the start, having lost the devolution vote, chucked themselves into the debate and while nowhere near power or within decades of it are part of "the scene" and accepted as such, unlike Scotland probably. Labour is not as monolithic as it was. Still dominates of course but look at the long term trend in seats on the periphery of the Valleys - the scales to weigh those majorities are a lot more delicate than they were in Newport, Torfaen, and others.

    Institutionally Scotland's separateness is far greater but culturally of course the Celticness of Wales remains more secure than Scotland. Yr hen iaith ( the old language ) is to be heard regularly in the pubs and restaurants of Cardiff (in a big minority of course but far more prevalent than 20 yrs ago) in a way unimaginable in Edinburgh or Glasgow. The rugby ain't bad either these days.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    FPT

    @RodCrosby How does the model cope with having a coalition?

    You seem to assume that all the "swing-back" will go to one partner and not the other.

    Well that's a half-sensible question, at last...

    The answer of course is we don't know, since there has never been a coalition, and all models are based on data pertaining to periods of single-party government. (I have added this caveat in my previous discussion of this subject, and on my data resources page)

    However, at some point this coalition will (presumably) disengage, and Cameron will stand alone at the head of either a Tory minority or caretaker government. If his PM approval then suddenly takes a dive, we will be given the answer...
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    TheScreamingEagles and GeoffM,thankyou for your help on my cricket nerves ;-)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited July 2013
    The "as a father" meme makes sense

    Ed was so afraid of being labelled "as a father", he didn't marry his partner or put his name on his kid's birth certificate.

    Until he was forced into it.

    Weak, weak, weak.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Bah. In my mind it's still an 'Allo 'Allo reference.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Quincel said:

    It's hard to see Labour doing worse than they did in 2010.

    It's not hard to see Ed doing worse than Gordo.

    Gordo saved the World, and was popular in Scotland.

    Ed will have done neither of those things.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    @Morris_Dancer

    But that was always "Nighthawk" in the singular.

    Or possibly "Neethawk" if you're Officer Crabtree!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,774
    edited July 2013

    Bah. In my mind it's still an 'Allo 'Allo reference.

    "Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once, PB Nighthawks is a reference to the painting and not 'Allo 'Allo.

    Though I do sound like Officer Crabtree when I speak French with my hybrid Yorkshire/Manc accent.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    It's not just about Ed and Gordon. Labour had been in power for 13 years, there was serious fatigue with them that doesn't exist now. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I think the article is right that the Tories have something of a mountain to climb instead of a level playing field.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Senile, you're quite right :p
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2013
    MikeSmithson said:

    Good story on the front of the Mail that might interest Tim

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/358313089680166912/photo/1

    Ugh. Sometimes it's hard not to despair.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    edited July 2013

    Senile, you're quite right :p

    "Senile, you're quite rot!" :)
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    RodCrosby said:

    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?

    Would it be such an issue if we pardoned them too? Personally I can't really see the fuss either way, but what would be the problem with the slippery slope you describe?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Eagles, Michelle was rather delightful.

    I hope that your accent is restored soon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,774
    edited July 2013
    Come on admit it

    Who got the Sir Cliff Richard references ?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Scott_P said:

    Quincel said:

    It's hard to see Labour doing worse than they did in 2010.

    It's not hard to see Ed doing worse than Gordo.

    Gordo saved the World, and was popular in Scotland.

    Ed will have done neither of those things.
    Ed ain't great at all IMO and will be sliced by the media in the run up. But he has been the lucky recipient of the "return of the SDPers" from the Lib Dems and a goodly number will stick, whatever. Question is how many and how well the economy recovers. Barring a black swan event he will do better than Gordo, but if the Tories can say "look it's been tough, but we've done the heavy lifting that Ed wouldn't have had the guts to do and better times are ahead don't give the keys back to the buggers that put us in the ditch" they have a shot. No more than that but a shot, none the less.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Quincel, it's reasonable to have some sort of limit, though. Otherwise we'll end up pardoning people going back centuries, and condemning them likewise, every time the law changes.

    Within living memory is a fairly sound limit, I would've thought.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,774

    Mr. Eagles, Michelle was rather delightful.

    I hope that your accent is restored soon.

    I preferred Denise Laroque of the Communist resistance.

    My accent will get worse, what with living in Sheffield, working in Manchester.

  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2013
    @ Welshowl

    Institutionally Scotland's separateness is far greater but culturally of course the Celticness of Wales remains more secure than Scotland. Yr hen iaith ( the old language ) is to be heard regularly in the pubs and restaurants of Cardiff (in a big minority of course but far more prevalent than 20 yrs ago) in a way unimaginable in Edinburgh or Glasgow. The rugby ain't bad either these days.

    Good post. Says me, a bona fide Valley Boy.

    I live about 14 miles north of Cardiff and I love living here. Love the pace of life, love the friendliness. I just wouldn't swap it for anywhere.

    But I do worry about Wales's status as an economic backwater. As you say, Cardiff and the Vale are okay (and Swansea SA1 area is trying) but beyond that we are struggling. Too much reliance on the public sector, too much intransigence in some areas (heads of the valleys, much of the Rhondda) towards the world, people there believing they are owed a living and not enough get-up-and-go.

    I think the political parties should invest in the Universities. The expansion of Uni of Glam has worked well, Cardiff Uni is thriving and the more students who come here the more metropolitan and outward thinking the place is becoming. We need to attract the bright young things to offset the third-generation workless who - sadly - show no signs of improving their lives.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Mr. Quincel, it's reasonable to have some sort of limit, though. Otherwise we'll end up pardoning people going back centuries, and condemning them likewise, every time the law changes.

    Within living memory is a fairly sound limit, I would've thought.

    Fair point, and I agree. I'm just saying that even no limit wouldn't seem to be that big a problem, so not pardoning Turing for fear of us never setting a limit seems questionable to me.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Good moaning! I was bruising the threads and I brung you a massage: Meek Smithson is now a bug fan of Loobour leader Odd Miliband!
  • welshowl said:

    Picking up on the Welsh article on nighthawks: agree can't see independence ( short of a major oil strike) west of Offa's dike for a generation plus as even a serious debating point. Leanne Wood generally out of depth IMO but right, to be fair, on central analysis that "it's the economy stupid " and Wales is just too bloody weak. Cardiff, Monmouthshire, the Vale of Glamorgan and maybe parts of the N E are not a million miles from UK average comparables or even a bit above but the rest is around Portugal or thereabouts.

    The article is right that the calibre of both Labour and Tories here ain't bad either as talent does seem alive and well in Cardiff Bay. Don't agree with much of Carwyn's world view but you can't deny he's "good" and Wales does well by him. Oddly the Tories right from the start, having lost the devolution vote, chucked themselves into the debate and while nowhere near power or within decades of it are part of "the scene" and accepted as such, unlike Scotland probably. Labour is not as monolithic as it was. Still dominates of course but look at the long term trend in seats on the periphery of the Valleys - the scales to weigh those majorities are a lot more delicate than they were in Newport, Torfaen, and others.

    Institutionally Scotland's separateness is far greater but culturally of course the Celticness of Wales remains more secure than Scotland. Yr hen iaith ( the old language ) is to be heard regularly in the pubs and restaurants of Cardiff (in a big minority of course but far more prevalent than 20 yrs ago) in a way unimaginable in Edinburgh or Glasgow. The rugby ain't bad either these days.

    I can't see Wales becoming independent for a long time either. Regarding the economy the issue seems to be 1) that Wales relies on being subsidised by the Barnett formula but unlike Scotland has no resources 2) Wales is more closely tied economically to England (M4 corridor in the south, Liverpool area in the north) than Scotland is to England.

    The other issue is that the language barrier divides unlike in Scotland. SNP can win an area like Angus but Plaid has no chance in Montgomery. If Plaid is to ever get closer to indie they would need to win over more of the English speakers. You say there are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff but I wonder if these are people working for the Assembly - I guess they have to be bilingual. You won't find many Welsh speakers in the valleys.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963

    Come on admit it

    Who got the Sir Cliff Richard references ?

    It's so funny how we don't talk any more :)
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,263
    @RodCrosby

    Alas, it is for the Scots to pardon the old crones who got burnt at the stake for witchcraft, as they were in the habit of burning witches. In England we mostly hanged 'em, apart from a very few who were convicted of petty treason.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Michelle was rather delightful.

    I once saw Yvette Carte-Blanche (or rather the actress who played her, Vicki Michelle) in panto. She was even more pleasing on the eye in person.

    Vicki, apropos of nothing, is the only tv series cast member to appear in the current stage production of 'Allo 'Allo.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Well after the excitement of today's cricket I'm chilling out listening to The Moody Blues - Day of Future Past on You tube. It's great
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Lucky you, Mr. M.

    Anyway, time to scurry off and hide in the fridge in a vain effort to cool down. Night, everyone.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2013

    Good moaning! I was bruising the threads and I brung you a massage: Meek Smithson is now a bug fan of Loobour leader Odd Miliband!

    He is fond of him, isn't he?

    Perhaps Mr Smithson likes to back an underdog, likes the fact that the stats back his betting judgement and go against the initial consensus - and prevailing right-wing view - that Ed is a bit crap.

    I don't mind Ed. He seems a nice enough chap. But he's a bit like Tim Henman in my view. Likeable, clean-cut and a bit nerdy and boring but unlikely to ever win anything.

    Perhaps Ed will end up having a hill named after him. I suspect he'd quite like that.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?

    Would it be such an issue if we pardoned them too? Personally I can't really see the fuss either way, but what would be the problem with the slippery slope you describe?
    Making empty gestures to the long-dead achieves nothing and is a waste of parliament's valuable time?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Fenster said:


    Perhaps Ed will end up having a hill named after him. I suspect he'd quite like that.

    Miliband's Molehill?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    RodCrosby said:

    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?

    Would it be such an issue if we pardoned them too? Personally I can't really see the fuss either way, but what would be the problem with the slippery slope you describe?
    Making empty gestures to the long-dead achieves nothing and is a waste of parliament's valuable time?
    Given that even in the wildest manifestation of pardoning this will happen about 5 times this decade, frankly I can live with that. And it doesn't always achieve nothing. Aside from surviving relatives, making this statement on homosexuality is perfectly relevant for these times.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Blimey - this "grassfire" occurred only a couple of miles from me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23382771
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464


    Good post. Says me, a bona fide Valley Boy.

    I live about 14 miles north of Cardiff and I love living here. Love the pace of life, love the friendliness. I just wouldn't swap it for anywhere.

    But I do worry about Wales's status as an economic backwater. As you say, Cardiff and the Vale are okay (and Swansea SA1 area is trying) but beyond that we are struggling. Too much reliance on the public sector, too much intransigence in some areas (heads of the valleys, much of the Rhondda) towards the world, people there believing they are owed a living and not enough get-up-and-go.

    I think the political parties should invest in the Universities. The expansion of Uni of Glam has worked well, Cardiff Uni is thriving and the more students who come here the more metropolitan and outward thinking the place is becoming. We need to attract the bright young things to offset the third-generation workless who - sadly -


    Amen to all you say. Great place to live but, Wales' tragedy IMO is the legacy of "huge employers" from heavy industry coal, steel, copper (Swansea), rail, etc which has made the light industry entrepreneurial spirit of parts of England somewhat foreign. Not totally of course shades of grey and all that, but Wales cannot thrive as a public sector ( DVLA, Companies' House, Patent office, RAF Valley etc) back room or branch economy (Sony etc). It can survive thus but not thrive generally. As for Plaid's independence thoughts on current economic basis ( especially given you can commute to Cardiff from Gloucestershire at a push so try raising taxes chaps and see what happens) - it's b*****ks in my considered opinion.

    If tax varying powers are granted it would be great to see something imaginative like lowering the rates via a vis England. I'll need smelling salts to bring me round if it happens mind.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited July 2013
    Fenster - sorry tried to quote you but it went a bit awry! Agree with what you say. You're probably about 9 - 10 miles north of me as I write this. From your description.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?

    Would it be such an issue if we pardoned them too? Personally I can't really see the fuss either way, but what would be the problem with the slippery slope you describe?
    Making empty gestures to the long-dead achieves nothing and is a waste of parliament's valuable time?
    Given that even in the wildest manifestation of pardoning this will happen about 5 times this decade, frankly I can live with that. And it doesn't always achieve nothing. Aside from surviving relatives, making this statement on homosexuality is perfectly relevant for these times.
    Ah well, there you have it. Present day militant homosexuals dis-inter the long-dead (without their consent) as poster-boys in order to "make a statement." Nothing to do with (pointless) restitution to the individuals concerned...

    Taken to its logical extreme, we would apologize to John Christie, John George Haigh, etc. for hanging them, on the grounds that:-

    i) we wouldn't do that to you now,
    ii) we would fight tooth and nail (extradition) to prevent anyone else doing that to you either...
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464


    I can't see Wales becoming independent for a long time either. Regarding the economy the issue seems to be 1) that Wales relies on being subsidised by the Barnett formula but unlike Scotland has no resources 2) Wales is more closely tied economically to England (M4 corridor in the south, Liverpool area in the north) than Scotland is to England.

    The other issue is that the language barrier divides unlike in Scotland. SNP can win an area like Angus but Plaid has no chance in Montgomery. If Plaid is to ever get closer to indie they would need to win over more of the English speakers. You say there are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff but I wonder if these are people working for the Assembly - I guess they have to be bilingual. You won't find many Welsh speakers in the valleys.

    Yup I'm sure the Assembly and S4C etc help boost the language in Cardiff compared to the Valleys, though I think the census shows not dissimilar numbers at 10-15% of speakers in both areas. Though I suspect more kids in school in the Rhondda ( say ) than executives populating the Potted Pig on St Mary St in Cardiff city centre and hence the executives greater audibility so to speak. Nevertheless I suspect knowing a Gaelic speaker as a friend in Edinburgh is vanishingly rare whereas having Welsh speaking friends and acquaintances in Cardiff is relatively common place.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2013
    welshowl said:

    Fenster - sorry tried to quote you but it went a bit awry! Agree with what you say. You're probably about 9 - 10 miles north if me as I write this. From your description.

    :D - I live in Ystrad Mynach, which is becoming a mini-Cardiff. Lots of you Cardiffians (you are from Cardiff, aren't you?) are emigrating up here, making houses more expensive and doing weird stuff like speaking properly! It must be the easy commute to Queen Street, our own hospital, own college, great rugby side (go Penallta!), incredibly good-looking locals like, erm, me and the fact it is a lovely place to live. To be fair - and I think the EU are the ones to thank - a lot of money has been invested here and it doesn't feel economically deprived at all, despite the fact (I think) we fall into 'Objective One'.

    It's when you venture further up the valleys that the fun really starts!

    Agree with all you say though.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    RodCrosby said:

    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Quincel said:

    RodCrosby said:

    19. Idiots trying to "change the past." If Turing, why not Gielgud, and a host of others - everyone, in fact - of that bent, who fell foul of the law of their times?

    When are we going get around to pardoning all the old crones who were burnt at the stake for witchcraft?

    Would it be such an issue if we pardoned them too? Personally I can't really see the fuss either way, but what would be the problem with the slippery slope you describe?
    Making empty gestures to the long-dead achieves nothing and is a waste of parliament's valuable time?
    Given that even in the wildest manifestation of pardoning this will happen about 5 times this decade, frankly I can live with that. And it doesn't always achieve nothing. Aside from surviving relatives, making this statement on homosexuality is perfectly relevant for these times.
    Ah well, there you have it. Present day militant homosexuals dis-inter the long-dead (without their consent) as poster-boys in order to "make a statement." Nothing to do with (pointless) restitution to the individuals concerned...

    Taken to its logical extreme, we would apologize to John Christie, John George Haigh, etc. for hanging them, on the grounds that:-

    i) we wouldn't do that to you now,
    ii) we would fight tooth and nail (extradition) to prevent anyone else doing that to you either...
    1. I clearly said that surviving relatives would receive 'restitution' by proxy.
    2. Speaking of these relatives, we can ask there consent, just as we do when we give posthumous honours.
    3. Since when was making a statement something governments shouldn't do? The Tories recently stated the marriage tax is about symbolism, for example.
    4. Who are the militant homosexuals? The government, or me? Or both? Either way, the present day government is straight by a clear majority, and you don't know my sexuality.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,774
    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Well said.

  • @antifrank I agree with you 100%. Thank god that people like him were on our side in WW2
    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,314
    Three years in, and message from Ed Miliband remains 'move along now, nothing to see'. :)
    Scott_P said:

    Fenster said:


    Perhaps Ed will end up having a hill named after him. I suspect he'd quite like that.

    Miliband's Molehill?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,401
    Fenster - Whatever happens, Ed M has managed to get the Labour total up to about 36% as a base by apologising for Iraq and moving on from New Labour without going so far left as to completely vacate the centre ground. 36% of the vote would equal Callaghan's total in 1979 and Blair's in 2005 and would be better than Foot, Kinnock or Brown got. Indeed, since 1979 only Blair's 1997 and 2001 victories would have surpassed it. On that basis too, the best I think Cameron can hope for is to get a majority of about 10, which would be lower than Major got in 1992 and leave him at the mercy of his Eurosceptic backbenchers prior to a possible 2017 referendum on the EU!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Fenster said:

    welshowl said:

    Fenster - sorry tried to quote you but it went a bit awry! Agree with what you say. You're probably about 9 - 10 miles north if me as I write this. From your description.

    :D - I live in Ystrad Mynach, which is becoming a mini-Cardiff. Lots of you Cardiffians (you are from Cardiff, aren't you?) are emigrating up here, making houses more expensive and doing weird stuff like speaking properly! It must be the easy commute to Queen Street, our own hospital, own college, great rugby side (go Penallta!), incredibly good-looking locals like, erm, me and the fact it is a lovely place to live. To be fair - and I think the EU are the ones to thank - a lot of money has been invested here and it doesn't feel economically deprived at all, despite the fact (I think) we fall into 'Objective One'.

    It's when you venture further up the valleys that the fun really starts!

    Agree with all you say though.

    Yup. Kaerrdiff inhabitant. Presumably those coming up the Valleys are talking tidy like ;-)

    Thing is, objective one in the Valleys (or elsewhere) is in my experience often seen as " a good thing " which in a narrow sense it is of course - more German cash - but in the broader sweep is utter failure as it brackets us with E Europe and Club Med rather than Baden Wuttemberg and Denmark.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,401
    Fenster - I agree, I quite like Ed M as a person and read Mehdi Hasan's biography of him last year with interest. On a personal level I would probably prefer him to Cameron, but as PM it will be Cameron for me. I put policy and PM qualities ahead of whether I like someone, although I did quite like Major and Blair both as people and as PM. Thatcher was not someone I would have liked to spend a day with particularly, but she was effective as PM for her time, Brown I neither liked personally nor as PM, although I thought he was reasonably suited to chancellor pre-credit crunch!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    edited July 2013
    Watching Mike Tyson vs Jesse Ferguson 1986. Fantastic. And it's come to the Hangover since then.

    As for HRH, how did someone who has never had a coffee at the Guardian iCafe arrive at those ridiculous opinions on homeopathy, global warming, you name it. Wasn't he the 60 months to save the world guy, tim?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Quite right.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    LOL
    Lizz Westman ‏@lizzwestman 7m

    BREAKING ROYAL BABY NEWS: HERE IS A LIVE STREAMING VIDEO OF A DOOR. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/kate-middleton/10179413/Live-Royal-baby-watch.html … #RoyalBaby #RoyalBabyWatch
    The Associated Press ‏@jawnoftime 2m

    BREAKING: Kate Middleton has been admitted to St. Mary's hospital in London with contractions- CC
    Let the lunacy begin!!

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    ;)
    Royal News on E! ‏@RoyalsGossip 1h

    Kate Middleton and Prince William Look-Alikes Prank Royal Baby Fans Outside London Hospital http://eonli.ne/12Ta5Nk

    British Royals ‏@britishroyals 1h

    Firefighters rush to rescue dog at Duchess of Cambridge's home last night. Poor Lupo? Is this why gates were open?... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/kate-middleton/10191968/Firefighters-rush-to-rescue-pet-dog-at-Duchess-of-Cambridges-home.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Hear! Hear!
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Sentimental Bollocks. "We" didn't treat him any which way. The Law, which no-one alive today is responsible for, treated him equally with others of his disposition, which is about the most anyone can reasonably expect from the Law... Subsequently they changed the Law, like they did for witchcraft, petty treason, sheep-rustling, murder, and a host of other matters. Unfortunately he had already passed on, together with thousands of others.

    He had the misfortune to be born in 1912. Tough. His life experience cannot be altered one jot, by empty gestures... It happened. It's history. It cannot be altered. It was nothing personal. Just the Law...

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited July 2013
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Sentimental Bollocks. "We" didn't treat him any which way. The Law, which no-one alive today is responsible for, treated him equally with others of his disposition, which is about the most anyone can reasonably expect from the Law... Subsequently they changed the Law, like they did for witchcraft, petty treason, sheep-rustling, murder, and a host of other matters. Unfortunately he had already passed on, together with thousands of others.

    He had the misfortune to be born in 1912. Tough. His life experience cannot be altered one jot, by empty gestures... It happened. It's history. It cannot be altered. It was nothing personal. Just the Law...

    Even if you subscribe to that ( I don't ) the guy remains (I think )under recognised as, a) one of the founding fathers of the modern Information Age b) one of the (if not THE) leading lights of the breaking of the Enigma codes and the probable shortening of the war by a considerable margin in time and blood.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Queen in Budapest on BBC4.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    welshowl said:

    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Sentimental Bollocks. "We" didn't treat him any which way. The Law, which no-one alive today is responsible for, treated him equally with others of his disposition, which is about the most anyone can reasonably expect from the Law... Subsequently they changed the Law, like they did for witchcraft, petty treason, sheep-rustling, murder, and a host of other matters. Unfortunately he had already passed on, together with thousands of others.

    He had the misfortune to be born in 1912. Tough. His life experience cannot be altered one jot, by empty gestures... It happened. It's history. It cannot be altered. It was nothing personal. Just the Law...

    Even if you subscribe to that ( I don't ) the guy remains (I think )under recognised as, a) one of the founding fathers of the modern Information Age b) one of the (if not THE) leading lights of the breaking of the Enigma codes and the probable shortening of the war by a considerable margin in time and blood.
    You have to bear in mind Rod's sympathies re. "that war" :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    tim said:

    Blow me down

    @TimesCrime: Midlands mosque bombs ‘were anti-Muslim campaign bid’, police believe http://t.co/tultCYuN7J

    Were they from the Ukrainian Defence League?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    welshowl said:

    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Sentimental Bollocks. "We" didn't treat him any which way. The Law, which no-one alive today is responsible for, treated him equally with others of his disposition, which is about the most anyone can reasonably expect from the Law... Subsequently they changed the Law, like they did for witchcraft, petty treason, sheep-rustling, murder, and a host of other matters. Unfortunately he had already passed on, together with thousands of others.

    He had the misfortune to be born in 1912. Tough. His life experience cannot be altered one jot, by empty gestures... It happened. It's history. It cannot be altered. It was nothing personal. Just the Law...

    Even if you subscribe to that ( I don't ) the guy remains (I think )under recognised as, a) one of the founding fathers of the modern Information Age b) one of the (if not THE) leading lights of the breaking of the Enigma codes and the probable shortening of the war by a considerable margin in time and blood.
    You are effing joking. Everyone, with the remotest interest in computers, in general, or the War in particular has heard of Alan. There are (wholly deserved) statues to the guy...

    His private life is irrelevant, except to morbid obsessives (who probably have only the sketchiest understanding of his contributions) and those who find it convenient to hi-jack a dead man to advance their own agendas...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    I'd love to delurk but it just isn't possible.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    edited July 2013
    Re. Turing, the question is how far she would go in applying today's morals and mores to historical situations?

    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66? The consensus seems to be no, but at the same time Britain should apologise for the slave trade which was taking place in about 1500.

    So it seems like some kind of barrier is set between 66 and 1500 by someone or other.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737



    You have to bear in mind Rod's sympathies re. "that war" :)

    Yes, my sympathies are with ALL who died and suffered so pointlessly and needlessly. I am against war, in all its forms...
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    RodCrosby said:

    welshowl said:

    RodCrosby said:

    antifrank said:

    Alan Turing shouldn't be posthumously pardoned, we should be begging his posthumous forgiveness for the way we treated a national hero.

    Sentimental Bollocks. "We" didn't treat him any which way. The Law, which no-one alive today is responsible for, treated him equally with others of his disposition, which is about the most anyone can reasonably expect from the Law... Subsequently they changed the Law, like they did for witchcraft, petty treason, sheep-rustling, murder, and a host of other matters. Unfortunately he had already passed on, together with thousands of others.

    He had the misfortune to be born in 1912. Tough. His life experience cannot be altered one jot, by empty gestures... It happened. It's history. It cannot be altered. It was nothing personal. Just the Law...

    Even if you subscribe to that ( I don't ) the guy remains (I think )under recognised as, a) one of the founding fathers of the modern Information Age b) one of the (if not THE) leading lights of the breaking of the Enigma codes and the probable shortening of the war by a considerable margin in time and blood.
    You are effing joking. Everyone, with the remotest interest in computers, in general, or the War in particular has heard of Alan. There are (wholly deserved) statues to the guy...

    His private life is irrelevant, except to morbid obsessives (who probably have only the sketchiest understanding of his contributions) and those who find it convenient to hi-jack a dead man to advance their own agendas...
    Well to an extent people have heard. But I doubt the man on the Clapham omnibus has like say Newton, or Einstein or Galileo, ( ok stretching a point on the latter) . And he probably deserves that level .
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Andy_JS said:



    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66?

    Tut tut, Andy! It was AD 43!
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Andy_JS said:

    Re. Turing, the question is how far she would go in applying today's morals and mores to historical situations?

    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66? The consensus seems to be no, but at the same time Britain should apologise for the slave trade which was taking place in about 1500.

    So it seems like some kind of barrier is set between 66 and 1500 by someone or other.

    Correct. It's entirely arbitrary, with the agenda set by the squeaking wheels... ermm... "vocal minorities"?

    You can't change the effin past. Nor should you try to. Geddit?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    RodCrosby said:



    You have to bear in mind Rod's sympathies re. "that war" :)

    Yes, my sympathies are with ALL who died and suffered so pointlessly and needlessly. I am against war, in all its forms...
    You started it - you invaded Poland! :)
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Andy_JS said:



    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66?

    Tut tut, Andy! It was AD 43!
    They had a go in BC 55 first mind.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    edited July 2013
    welshowl said:

    Andy_JS said:



    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66?

    Tut tut, Andy! It was AD 43!
    They had a go in BC 55 first mind.
    Well that doesn't really count :)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited July 2013
    RodCrosby said:

    His private life is irrelevant, except to morbid obsessives (who probably have only the sketchiest understanding of his contributions) and those who find it convenient to hi-jack a dead man to advance their own agendas...

    Spot on. There are plenty of tributes to him now and we see him in a different way. But we are all people of our time. The past is the past and it's a selfish navel-gazing pomposity to view it through the spectrum of current mores. Even worse to exploit the dead in a way they would have found utterly alien and possibly completely unwelcome.

    Edited for typo
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2013

    RodCrosby said:



    You have to bear in mind Rod's sympathies re. "that war" :)

    Yes, my sympathies are with ALL who died and suffered so pointlessly and needlessly. I am against war, in all its forms...
    You started it - you invaded Poland! :)
    And whose idea was that?

    Clue: "Damn. We've slaughtered the wrong pig!", Churchill, 1945
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    Andy_JS said:



    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66?

    Tut tut, Andy! It was AD 43!
    They had a go in BC 55 first mind.
    Well that doesn't really count :)
    Does in Deal ;-)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:



    You have to bear in mind Rod's sympathies re. "that war" :)

    Yes, my sympathies are with ALL who died and suffered so pointlessly and needlessly. I am against war, in all its forms...
    You started it - you invaded Poland! :)
    And whose idea was that?

    Clue: "Damn. We've slaughtered the wrong pig!", Churchill, 1945
    Whose idea? Hitler's I would imagine....
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited July 2013
    @fitalass

    'Three years in, and message from Ed Miliband remains 'move along now, nothing to see'. :)'

    Cut Ed a bit of slack,he's managed a u-turn on welfare,education,benefits cap,immigration,NHS,tuition fees & coalition spending plans.

    Any more u-turns and the Labour party manifesto will be on a post-it note
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107
    Andy_JS said:

    Re. Turing, the question is how far she would go in applying today's morals and mores to historical situations?

    Should the people of Rome apologise for invading Britain in AD 66? The consensus seems to be no, but at the same time Britain should apologise for the slave trade which was taking place in about 1500.

    So it seems like some kind of barrier is set between 66 and 1500 by someone or other.

    This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a Danish friend. We'd got to know each other through a shared interest in military history, and were discussing the Napoleonic Wars when he suddenly - and rather heatedly - started demanding that Britain should apologise for bombarding Copenhagen in 1807. He only got angrier when I not only refused but said that if he thought apologies for such things were appropriate then the Danes should start off by apologising for the Viking raids - that was ridiculous, he said. Nobody should be expected to apologise for ancient history.

    Which left me with the feeling that the only rule applicable to such apologies is that they can be demanded for events far enough back that "your" country has to apologise to "mine", but not so far back that "my" country has to apologise to "yours"...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    Quincel said:

    It's not just about Ed and Gordon. Labour had been in power for 13 years, there was serious fatigue with them that doesn't exist now. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I think the article is right that the Tories have something of a mountain to climb instead of a level playing field.

    I think that's right. I remember 2010 primarily as a grim defensive battle which we always expected to lose - we were pleasantly surprised it was so close both locally and nationally. I can remember nothing of the Labour election manifesto and it was clear that we'd run out of steam - the only real argument was that the alternatives would prove to be worse (as indeed we left/liberal types would think has proved to be the case). The atmosphere is now quite different - not wonderful, frankly, but the sense of exhaustion has gone.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Random said:


    This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a Danish friend. We'd got to know each other through a shared interest in military history, and were discussing the Napoleonic Wars when he suddenly - and rather heatedly - started demanding that Britain should apologise for bombarding Copenhagen in 1807.

    Also 1801!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    edited July 2013
    RodCrosby said:




    Clue: "Damn. We've slaughtered the wrong pig!", Churchill, 1945

    About as apocryphal as MacMillan's "Events, dear boy! Events!"
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Random said:

    Which left me with the feeling that the only rule applicable to such apologies is that they can be demanded for events far enough back that "your" country has to apologise to "mine", but not so far back that "my" country has to apologise to "yours"...

    Rule 2 is that "your" people should pay money to "my" people/country/hurriedly thrown together bunch of grievance-mongers.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107

    Random said:


    This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a Danish friend. We'd got to know each other through a shared interest in military history, and were discussing the Napoleonic Wars when he suddenly - and rather heatedly - started demanding that Britain should apologise for bombarding Copenhagen in 1807.

    Also 1801!
    1807 was the one he got really angry about. Pointing out that not only did the British seize every ship in the Danish Navy but also demanded in the peace treaty that every oak tree in Denmark be cut down and destroyed so they could not be swiftly replaced. Allegedly, a new crop of oaks was planted and in the 1980's the Danish forestry service sent a formal note to the Danish navy that they had reached sufficient maturity to be used in shipbuilding...
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Geek alert: Bezos Expeditions (founded by Amazon founder Jeff Bezos ) have found Apollo 11′s F-1 engine #5.

    Posted today at the Bezos Expeditions website.
    Today, I’m thrilled to share some exciting news. One of the conservators who was scanning the objects with a black light and a special lens filter has made a breakthrough discovery – “2044” – stenciled in black paint on the side of one of the massive thrust chambers. 2044 is the Rocketdyne serial number that correlates to NASA number 6044, which is the serial number for F-1 Engine #5 from Apollo 11.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    edited July 2013
    Nearly 80 boys killed by ritual circumcisions in South Africa:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23378694
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    So it turns out Cliff Richard's mother is an Anglo-Indian.

    Should we feel sorry for him, being an ethnic minority member, succeeding against the odds? Or, alternatively, angry with him for denying this side of his heritage over the years?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    edited July 2013
    @antifrank

    The simple answer to your question about the follow-on is that with such hot weather the England bowlers would have been exhausted and would have appreciated the opportunity for a rest.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    Andy_JS said:

    So it turns out Cliff Richard's mother is an Anglo-Indian.

    Should we feel sorry for him, being an ethnic minority member, succeeding against the odds? Or, alternatively, angry with him for denying this side of his heritage over the years?

    I thought we all knew his parents were Anglo-Indian - Wiki has had that info for years (IIRC).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,712
    edited July 2013
    Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where both the heir to the throne and the Health Secretary believe in a load of mumbo-jumbo, namely homeopathy.

    Actually, no it isn't. It's depressing.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107
    Andy_JS said:

    Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where both the heir to the throne and the Health Secretary believe in a load of mumbo-jumbo, namely homeopathy.

    Actually, no it isn't. It's depressing.

    It's a harmless enough eccentricity on Charles' part. On the Health Secretary's part however - if true, it should be a resigning matter (actually, sod resignation - it should be a firing matter). It's almost as bad as if the Education Secretary was a young-earth creationist.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited July 2013

    I thought we all knew his parents were Anglo-Indian - Wiki has had that info for years (IIRC).

    Yes, I had an "I'm sure I know this" moment when I read @Andy_JS so I checked Wiki. Yes, Sunil, that seems pretty clear from there as you say. However we can't date it without going through the history so I took a Google-fu shortcut and found this in a Daily Mail article about the bigamy in his family:

    For although he briskly told Woman’s Hour that his mother was ‘not Anglo-Indian’ — as has been suggested in the past — and that he had instead an ‘Anglo-Indian stepfather’, it turns out that he does indeed have Anglo-Indian blood.

    That's dated 1st Nov 2011 so it seems it wasn't "official" as recently as then.

    I suspect @Andy_JS has seen a mention of this as a "new" thing but without a link we don't know. Hiding Anglo-Indian ancestry in showbiz is hardly unique though. Merle Oberon did it, just off the top of my head. Passed off her mother as her servant.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Andy_JS said:

    So it turns out Cliff Richard's mother is an Anglo-Indian.

    So was "the Fifth Beatle's" (Pete Best's) mother...

    And Boris Karloff...
This discussion has been closed.