You'd think they would but I haven't yet seen any sign that the people who didn't get it before now get it.
There are a whole bunch of news articles and comment today saying that the NSA in Trump's hands is a danger.
I don't think Trump will have heard of it. The NSA (as any internal Government Organisation) is a danger - and was a danger when under Obama's control. Basically we now seem to be entering the era of left-wing conspiracy theories. I mean the IRS was used by Obama as a tool of repression against 'right-wing' opponents.
Who was it who said "The worst thing a citizen can hear is someone announcing themselves as "Good morning, I am from the Government and am here to help you" - or words to that effect?
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
Because he gets and relates to the white working class.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
All interesting points on this thread, but I'll reiterate a point I made yesterday. When rational, centrist, moderate politicians have delivered variously the Euro, the Iraq War, the Banking Crisis, mass migration, supranationalism, is it surprising that people find populists attractive by comparison?
They've also delivered over half a century of completely unparalleled peace in most of the developed world, the rule of law spread widely, a huge reduction in corruption, improved safety, universal healthcare, decades of unprecedented improvements in prosperity, better living standards for everyone, reduced crime, and less discrimination.
Voters take the good things for granted, and think that they are not threatened by simplistic populist messages, but of course they are.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
That's about 10% in three decades, from about $50k to $55k, that is not a lot when compared to GDP growth, or corporate profits. And that's the median, the mean has gone from about $70k to $90k in the same period, about a 30% increase.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
Max - I agree that the issue is political correctness. Where will the money for Trump's infrastructure plan come from?
His policy is to massively increase the government deficit.
Has he explicitly stated that as intended policy - or is it merely the natural consequence of other stated policies (ie cut taxes, infrastructure spend)?
Either way - the first thing that he'll need to do is get an agreement from Congress to get the debt ceiling raised. Not sure how that'll go down with the Ron Paul types in the GOP?
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
Because he gets and relates to the white working class.
Which would be very interesting had Biden not been vice-president for the past eight years, and therefore officially to blame for all perceived and real problems. Biden might have won against Bush, say, but then so might Hillary.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
I am not disputing that at all Robert or saying other countries had done better, my point was merely that when over 20 years your wage stagnates but living costs keep rising and you move ever downwards on the spiral from comfortably off towards scraping to make ends meet then at some point its no wonder if people go "You know this consensus really isnt working for us time to try something new"
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Dave Rubin (who is a lefty) call's it the "Oppression Olympics" and bangs on about how the left have to stop this crap....ranking groups like this while being quick to call people racist, sexist, etc etc etc
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
I don't think I was clear... my issue was that you described it as stagnant... whereas actually there has been plenty of variation within that time period.
Thus I don't think it's the case that Clinton/Bush/Obama have all been the same/been doing the same things/been getting the same results.
In any case- the largest growth as shown in the graph comes from Bill Clinton... so seems strange to say it would be insane to vote for Hilary- she will be more of the same and not lead to wage growth when her husband was so successful in that.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
Because he gets and relates to the white working class.
Which would be very interesting had Biden not been vice-president for the past eight years, and therefore officially to blame for all perceived and real problems. Biden might have won against Bush, say, but then so might Hillary.
Look at those margins in the Midwest. It wouldn't take much to keep WI, MI & PA blue, which is all that was needed.
What about the other counterfactual? Would Kasich or Rubio have beaten Hillary?
I think a more obvious explanation is that as the Democratic Party becomes more and more the party of the liberal left, special interest groups and immigrants, the white vote that does not fall into any of those categories is leaving the party for the GOP or for abstaining.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
A bit of a simplistic answer, but because the benefits of productivity gains haven't accrued to the median worker. Partly this is due to growth in upper incomes (I'm pretty certain that mean incomes have increased over the same time frame), and partly due to gains being exported globally. (Again, pretty certain but not looked it up that global median incomes have risen over the same time frame)
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
One scenario: More automation means fewer people working which means higher wages (and/or higher profits) for those still in that line of work, but lower wages for those who lose their job to a machine and so have to take a less skilled, lower paid job elsewhere. GDP goes up, as profits are up, but median wage goes down as more people are in poorly paid unskilled jobs.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
In defence of the smug liberal class, are they really the ones determined to treat people as groups rather than individuals. Left wing politics has gone that way, particularly post-socialism when the biggest howls of injustice were often coming from 'minorities'. I'm not sure I would see that as liberal though, more the traditional left wing desire to side with the weak against the strong.
I think a more obvious explanation is that as the Democratic Party becomes more and more the party of the liberal left, special interest groups and immigrants, the white vote that does not fall into any of those categories is leaving the party for the GOP or for abstaining.
That sounds familiar, it reminds me of something I can't quite put my finger on at this moment.
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
Good stuff from Keiran. I was amazed by just how low the turnout was, having been informed constantly by the media throughout the campaign and especially on election day itself that near record levels of voters were expected. In fact we were hoodwinked and quite the opposite proved to be the case. The reaction to the result by the American people is even more pathetic than by the Remainers to the EU referendum result in June. Don't people believe in democracy any more?
One thing that should be mentioned amidst all the talk of working class revolt - and it is happening everywhere - is that Trump did perfectly well with wealthy voters. They appear to have split eveny between himself and Clinton. So the elite who've done well out of globalisation didn't seem entirely hostile to Trump and his apparently anti-establishment rhetoric. If we are to assume that the wealthy are more likely to vote then it looks even more curious.
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
Because he gets and relates to the white working class.
Which would be very interesting had Biden not been vice-president for the past eight years, and therefore officially to blame for all perceived and real problems. Biden might have won against Bush, say, but then so might Hillary.
Look at those margins in the Midwest. It wouldn't take much to keep WI, MI & PA blue, which is all that was needed.
What about the other counterfactual? Would Kasich or Rubio have beaten Hillary?
The Dems are clearly better positioned than Labour here in terms of margin needed to flip certain states.
Where was the biggest swing to Trump btw Rhodes Island ?
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
Because he gets and relates to the white working class.
Which would be very interesting had Biden not been vice-president for the past eight years, and therefore officially to blame for all perceived and real problems. Biden might have won against Bush, say, but then so might Hillary.
Look at those margins in the Midwest. It wouldn't take much to keep WI, MI & PA blue, which is all that was needed.
What about the other counterfactual? Would Kasich or Rubio have beaten Hillary?
The Dems are clearly better positioned than Labour here in terms of margin needed to flip certain states/constituencies
Where was the biggest swing to Trump btw Rhodes Island ?
I don't think I was clear... my issue was that you described it as stagnant... whereas actually there has been plenty of variation within that time period.
Thus I don't think it's the case that Clinton/Bush/Obama have all been the same/been doing the same things/been getting the same results.
In any case- the largest growth as shown in the graph comes from Bill Clinton... so seems strange to say it would be insane to vote for Hilary- she will be more of the same and not lead to wage growth when her husband was so successful in that.
Ah I get you now, yes in overall terms stagnant is the wrong term, on individual terms though stagnant I would say is the right term as those who stay in the same line of work will see wages more or less flat line for example what I do, software engineer the going rates for my grade on the job boards are pretty much the same now as they were in 2002.
The point I was trying to make really is that the majority of people are in real terms worse off year on year and its a slide thats been happening for around 2 decades
The other thing is that graph deals with household income, I would be more interested in a graph of median individual wages as I wonder how much distortion is caused by one partner dropping out of work or going part time to look after children
A lot of people here keep going on the theme "but they have no answers, they will fail that is why voters shouldnt have voted for trump/brexit/whatever comes next"
Let me advance a different view. We have had 20 years of the like of Clegg,Cameron,Blair,Obama , Merkel etc.
In that time the majority of this country though probably not most on this boards have seen their incomes staying stagnant while the cost of living going through the roof.
We know Clegg, Cameron, Blair dont have the answers. They proved it over the last 20 years but you think we should keep on with them? Maybe you are right and Brexit/trump wont be an answer but at least we are trying something different as we know damn well what we have now is a failure for most people
Einstein nailed it
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well, some fashioner of cod Einstein quotes nailed it. Hopefully he/she received some award for services to internet banality.
Really the best you can come up with pedantry because I didn't quote directly and there is debate about the attribution? How about addressing the point of the post?
Shows that median incomes have risen considerably in the long run from the 80s... but that they still have not recovered from the depths of the global recession.
Either way- doesn't feel like stagnant is the right way of describing that graph.
I said 20 years, your graph bears that out give or take a couple of years, median incomes peak was 1999
As it was in the US and Japan. Only Germany and Switzerland - of the major (resource importing) countries - have seen real median incomes increase in the last 17 years.
Why do you think this is?
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
One thing that should be mentioned amidst all the talk of working class revolt - and it is happening everywhere - is that Trump did perfectly well with wealthy voters. They appear to have split eveny between himself and Clinton. So the elite who've done well out of globalisation didn't seem entirely hostile to Trump and his apparently anti-establishment rhetoric. If we are to assume that the wealthy are more likely to vote then it looks even more curious.
Hillary lost not because of an increased Republican vote but a collapsed Democrat vote. She's toxic - as is her left liberal PC nannying corrupt disdain. She's their Milliband.
Oh...and don't equate the wealthy with $50,000. The merely comfortable have fallen, way, way behind the truly wealthy 0.0001%. They are shit angry they can't afford private schools or holidays while crooked Hillary bags $300,000 for a speech to Goldman Sachs.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
Basically, post-colonial guilt (white skin) and the fallout from the lessons of the 1930s and 1940s (nations are bad) still dominates our politics today. This is at least two decades out of date and perhaps a major vote was needed to give the political class that message.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Dave Rubin (who is a lefty) call's it the "Oppression Olympics" and bangs on about how the left have to stop this crap....ranking groups like this while being quick to call people racist, sexist, etc etc etc
It's White Privilege to be called a stupid racist Nazi, dontchaknow?
Good stuff from Keiran. I was amazed by just how low the turnout was, having been informed constantly by the media throughout the campaign and especially on election day itself that near record levels of voters were expected. In fact we were hoodwinked and quite the opposite proved to be the case. The reaction to the result by the American people is even more pathetic than by the Remainers to the EU referendum result in June. Don't people believe in democracy any more?
Turnout is always lower than you think. In America voting isn't made easy, which doesn't help either.
Good stuff from Keiran. I was amazed by just how low the turnout was, having been informed constantly by the media throughout the campaign and especially on election day itself that near record levels of voters were expected. In fact we were hoodwinked and quite the opposite proved to be the case. The reaction to the result by the American people is even more pathetic than by the Remainers to the EU referendum result in June. Don't people believe in democracy any more?
I believe in democracy. It's perfectly acceptable to believe that the people made an appalling choice while accepting the victory (something that Donald Trump declined to commit to doing in advance of the vote). An elected racist authoritarian sexual predator is still a racist authoritarian sexual predator. There's no obligation to celebrate such an electoral victory.
Oh dear, Dan Hodges wondering the same thing as me:
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 3h3 hours ago I wonder what would have happened if Biden had run, (and won the nomination).
I need to seek therapy :-)
Biden has run twice before and flopped both times. Why would he have won this time? It can't be because he would have run as an outsider against the establishment because he is the sitting vice-president. He is the Establishment.
I think Obama would have been stronger for him and there would have been fewer Dems feeling that a vote for him required a nose peg.
I think you underestimate just how popular Bernie was with grassroots Dems and how ready the DNC establishment would have got on board with him if he had won in a fair fight vs Hillary. Just as they did for Obama in 2008 when he beat Hillary. Bernie would have been able to hold the Obama coalition together and add lower propensity younger voters. Remember that Bernie funded his primary campaign with small donations rather than getting big donors on side, he was very, very popular, and not in a Corbyn is popular kind of way.
I don't think he'd have won over independents. You might be right that he would have got new Dem-leaners to vote. But relying on people who don't vote to win elections has proven to be a sub-optimal strategy recently in anything other than internal Labour Party hijackings.
Why do commentators keep calling it Clinton's blue firewall? It was Obama's, not hers.
Well it was supposedly Democrat and she was the Candidate. As for being a firewall - well if you looked at Nates 'snake' on National Overview pages then you would have seen notionally Democrat states lined upon the left hand side in order of vulnerability.
After New Hampshire the snake got deep blue very quickly. That was the firewall - proof against Trump. The firewall - holding back the red surge before trump won was CO, MI, WI,PA. The states in front of the firewall - those that Trump had to take before the fire could get close to and could therefore be sacrificed were NV, FL, OH, IA, NC.
It was because Trump had to take all the 'sacrifical' states before he could get even close to the 'firewall' that made Clinton's position so secure. If you have even money on taking any of those 5 'sacrifical' states then in theory the odds are 31/32 that one would hold up. (Actually the odds are less because changes in vote share are not independent, but you get the drift.)
(the colour of the snake changed during the night and states actually called were put to the back of the appropriate queue - did anyone bother going over to check?)
One thing that should be mentioned amidst all the talk of working class revolt - and it is happening everywhere - is that Trump did perfectly well with wealthy voters. They appear to have split eveny between himself and Clinton. So the elite who've done well out of globalisation didn't seem entirely hostile to Trump and his apparently anti-establishment rhetoric. If we are to assume that the wealthy are more likely to vote then it looks even more curious.
Not really. Hillary won with the Give Me Free Stuff demographic - Trump won in every other income bracket IIRC. They comprise those lower income middle classes who don't qualify for Free Stuff and then everyone above them who doesn't fancy 65% Death Taxes.
I think Obama would have been stronger for him and there would have been fewer Dems feeling that a vote for him required a nose peg.
I think you underestimate just how popular Bernie was with grassroots Dems and how ready the DNC establishment would have got on board with him if he had won in a fair fight vs Hillary. Just as they did for Obama in 2008 when he beat Hillary. Bernie would have been able to hold the Obama coalition together and add lower propensity younger voters. Remember that Bernie funded his primary campaign with small donations rather than getting big donors on side, he was very, very popular, and not in a Corbyn is popular kind of way.
Counterfactuals are difficult. Bernie would have had a whole lot of Cold War rhetoric thrown at him - he honeymooned in the Soviet Union and I think it's probably true to say that his instincts in the Cold War were not mainstream American. How much that would have mattered to today's electorate I don't know - Trump flirting with modern Russia seems to have done him no harm except with a few senior Republicans, and Bernie could reasonably have dismissed it as being irrelevant to today's world. But it would have been a different ball game.
But with the Canary and Brieitbart there is absolutely no effort at putting a counter argument, and connections to the truth are very loose. They are essentially a news agency based on clickbait and facebook memes. They are designed to generate outrage and traffic at all costs without any kind of semblance of journalistic integrity.
But both seem to be run by people who genuinely don't believe that. That think the MSM are out to get them. Conspiracy theorists. People linking to these sites should think more carefully.
I think people making posts like yours above should think more carefully. What you're suggesting is the stifling of free speech.
Nonsense. People have a right to write and publish total shite. I even think Mail Online is acceptable. But people spreading said shite around should think carefully before so doing. If you spread too much around, everything is covered in ordure.
One thing that should be mentioned amidst all the talk of working class revolt - and it is happening everywhere - is that Trump did perfectly well with wealthy voters. They appear to have split eveny between himself and Clinton. So the elite who've done well out of globalisation didn't seem entirely hostile to Trump and his apparently anti-establishment rhetoric. If we are to assume that the wealthy are more likely to vote then it looks even more curious.
Hillary lost not because of an increased Republican vote but a collapsed Democrat vote. She's toxic. She's their Milliband.
Oh...and don't equate the wealthy with $50,000. The merely comfortable have fallen, way, way behind the truly wealthy 0.0001%. They are shit angry they can't afford private schools or holidays while crooked Hillary bags $300,000 for a speech to Goldman Sachs.
I was actually thinking +$100,000 and $200,000! From memory I'm not sure if that was household or individual.
Ah I get you now, yes in overall terms stagnant is the wrong term, on individual terms though stagnant I would say is the right term as those who stay in the same line of work will see wages more or less flat line for example what I do, software engineer the going rates for my grade on the job boards are pretty much the same now as they were in 2002.
The point I was trying to make really is that the majority of people are in real terms worse off year on year and its a slide thats been happening for around 2 decades
The other thing is that graph deals with household income, I would be more interested in a graph of median individual wages as I wonder how much distortion is caused by one partner dropping out of work or going part time to look after children
Similar if less pronounced picture... big dip end of Bush/under Obama that we are now recovering from... basically stagnant under Bush... significant rise under Clinton I.
I don't really remember Hilary making much of her husband's record... there was one answer in the debate on it... Maybe it's too long ago- but feels like perhaps should have been a larger part of her offer particularly to those people you identify as frustrated with lack of wage increases.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
In defence of the smug liberal class, are they really the ones determined to treat people as groups rather than individuals. Left wing politics has gone that way, particularly post-socialism when the biggest howls of injustice were often coming from 'minorities'. I'm not sure I would see that as liberal though, more the traditional left wing desire to side with the weak against the strong.
It's gotten out of hand, though. It's like the death of opinion. Unless you tow the liberal line, you are seen as a 'racist', or a 'misogynist'. There's always an 'ist' or a 'phobe' on the tip of a liberal's tongue to denounce someone who doesn't share their world view. Now here's the problem - that warped thinking is deeply embedded in the media, the law, politics, the public sector, education, and just about every other organised institution. Many people may embrace that - great for them. Many people may resent it, but are cowed into silence, and those that do oppose vocally are publically shamed, humiliated, and even subjected to criminal proceedings.
Western societies have lost themselves in this Orwellian group think, and if Brexit and Trump's election press the reset button, then I'm all for it.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
In defence of the smug liberal class, are they really the ones determined to treat people as groups rather than individuals. Left wing politics has gone that way, particularly post-socialism when the biggest howls of injustice were often coming from 'minorities'. I'm not sure I would see that as liberal though, more the traditional left wing desire to side with the weak against the strong.
It's gotten out of hand, though. It's like the death of opinion. Unless you tow the liberal line, you are seen as a 'racist', or a 'misogynist'. There's always an 'ist' or a 'phobe' on the tip of a liberal's tongue to denounce someone who doesn't share their world view. Now here's the problem - that warped thinking is deeply embedded in the media, the law, politics, the public sector, education, and just about every other organised institution. Many people may embrace that - great for them. Many people may resent it, but are cowed into silence, and those that do oppose vocally are publically shamed, humiliated, and even subjected to criminal proceedings.
Western societies have lost themselves in this Orwellian group think, and if Brexit and Trump's election press the reset button, then I'm all for it.
It's why poliing is screwed atm
if people wont tell you what they think then what's the point in polling ?
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
The problem is that sometimes people mistake political correctness for taking responsibility for yourself and not seeking to blame minorities for anything bad in your life. In NI, I regularly come across people pointing at 'themmuns' as getting everything.
Ah I get you now, yes in overall terms stagnant is the wrong term, on individual terms though stagnant I would say is the right term as those who stay in the same line of work will see wages more or less flat line for example what I do, software engineer the going rates for my grade on the job boards are pretty much the same now as they were in 2002.
The point I was trying to make really is that the majority of people are in real terms worse off year on year and its a slide thats been happening for around 2 decades
The other thing is that graph deals with household income, I would be more interested in a graph of median individual wages as I wonder how much distortion is caused by one partner dropping out of work or going part time to look after children
I don't really remember Hilary making much of her husband's record... there was one answer in the debate on it... Maybe it's too long ago- but feels like perhaps should have been a larger part of her offer particularly to those people you identify as frustrated with lack of wage increases.
Her problem with doing that is that it would have undermined her 'I'm my own women' claims.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
In defence of the smug liberal class, are they really the ones determined to treat people as groups rather than individuals. Left wing politics has gone that way, particularly post-socialism when the biggest howls of injustice were often coming from 'minorities'. I'm not sure I would see that as liberal though, more the traditional left wing desire to side with the weak against the strong.
It's gotten out of hand, though. It's like the death of opinion. Unless you tow the liberal line, you are seen as a 'racist', or a 'misogynist'. There's always an 'ist' or a 'phobe' on the tip of a liberal's tongue to denounce someone who doesn't share their world view. Now here's the problem - that warped thinking is deeply embedded in the media, the law, politics, the public sector, education, and just about every other organised institution. Many people may embrace that - great for them. Many people may resent it, but are cowed into silence, and those that do oppose vocally are publically shamed, humiliated, and even subjected to criminal proceedings.
Western societies have lost themselves in this Orwellian group think, and if Brexit and Trump's election press the reset button, then I'm all for it.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
Yes, this is the inevitable reaction to the left playing identity politics for the last 30 years. The smug liberal class is now beginning to see what they have created with their policies of treating people as groups rather than as individuals.
In defence of the smug liberal class, are they really the ones determined to treat people as groups rather than individuals. Left wing politics has gone that way, particularly post-socialism when the biggest howls of injustice were often coming from 'minorities'. I'm not sure I would see that as liberal though, more the traditional left wing desire to side with the weak against the strong.
It's gotten out of hand, though. It's like the death of opinion. Unless you tow the liberal line, you are seen as a 'racist', or a 'misogynist'. There's always an 'ist' or a 'phobe' on the tip of a liberal's tongue to denounce someone who doesn't share their world view. Now here's the problem - that warped thinking is deeply embedded in the media, the law, politics, the public sector, education, and just about every other organised institution. Many people may embrace that - great for them. Many people may resent it, but are cowed into silence, and those that do oppose vocally are publically shamed, humiliated, and even subjected to criminal proceedings.
Western societies have lost themselves in this Orwellian group think, and if Brexit and Trump's election press the reset button, then I'm all for it.
CLAPS
Don't forget business. We are all now expected to workship at the altar of skin-deep diversity, while ignoring the only real kind which benefits business, that of perspectives and ideas.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
The problem is that sometimes people mistake political correctness for taking responsibility for yourself and not seeking to blame minorities for anything bad in your life. In NI, I regularly come across people pointing at 'themmuns' as getting everything.
well that's just a racist sectarian comment from a blow in :-)
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
Just because Trump won the election does not mean the identity of Democrat politics is dead. If that were to be the case, there would have been no Republican party today after 2008 and 2012.
Trump's victory is hardly a landslide. Even Michigan was won by barely 13k votes. In 2020, Arizona will come into play and by 2024 so will Texas.
When the new factories magically do not reappear in the rust belt and are replaced by warehouse and insurance companies, I wonder who the Trumpers would for instead.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
If the figures I've seen are right, and the US used the popular vote to elect - the winner would be chosen by NY, Los Angeles et al. The electoral college is absolutely the right way to choose a leader that reflects less populous regions.
The graphic of counties that voted GOP is pretty stark.
Labour should listen to Margaret Hodge on how she chased the BNP and Nick Griffin out of her Barking constituency, by outright challenge, not by bending towards them.
That's not quite how her colleague Steve Bell saw it:
I think Obama would have been stronger for him and there would have been fewer Dems feeling that a vote for him required a nose peg.
I think you underestimate just how popular Bernie was with grassroots Dems and how ready the DNC establishment would have got on board with him if he had won in a fair fight vs Hillary. Just as they did for Obama in 2008 when he beat Hillary. Bernie would have been able to hold the Obama coalition together and add lower propensity younger voters. Remember that Bernie funded his primary campaign with small donations rather than getting big donors on side, he was very, very popular, and not in a Corbyn is popular kind of way.
Counterfactuals are difficult. Bernie would have had a whole lot of Cold War rhetoric thrown at him - he honeymooned in the Soviet Union and I think it's probably true to say that his instincts in the Cold War were not mainstream American. How much that would have mattered to today's electorate I don't know - Trump flirting with modern Russia seems to have done him no harm except with a few senior Republicans, and Bernie could reasonably have dismissed it as being irrelevant to today's world. But it would have been a different ball game.
If Bernie could win and so would have McGovern. McGovern lost 63 - 37. The same crowds idolised him.
Placards in the anti Trump demonstrations last night carried the message 'Muslims and immigrants are not the problem Wall Street is.' Michael Moore has issued an online message to supporters urging them to 'take back control of the Democratic Party' and to fight Trump as hard as Republixans fought Obama. Expect the Democrats to take a sharp shift to the left with an infiltration of U.S. Corbynistas while Elizabeth Warren looks a good bet to win the Democratic nomination to challenge President Trump in 2020
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Really? The democrats have to defeat Trump / pence, labour have to defeat May. Trump makes Farage appear centrist, May so far sounds a lot like a Democrat.
It's amusing, and salutary, to think that only a few months ago there was much speculation about how the choice of Trump as nominee would lead to electoral catastrophe, major problems down-ballot, and ultimately the end of the Republican Party.
Now they control the White House, Senate and House, and people are speculating about the end of Democrat-style liberal politics.
It's rather like 1992 in the UK: before the election, pundits thought Labour would win and the Tories would be in a bad way, then after the election it was Labour that was finished. When ever anyone talks about the 'death' of a major party or political stance, it's always worth remembering how that 1992 example worked out five years later. Even the 2016 Labour Party might conceivably not be dead.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
That's so daft it's mad
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
The problem is that sometimes people mistake political correctness for taking responsibility for yourself and not seeking to blame minorities for anything bad in your life. In NI, I regularly come across people pointing at 'themmuns' as getting everything.
well that's just a racist sectarian comment from a blow in :-)
I love it really. I think I like living here because I'm regarded as right of centre in England but am pretty much a dangerous radical lefty here.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
If the figures I've seen are right, and the US used the popular vote to elect - the winner would be chosen by NY, Los Angeles et al. The electoral college is absolutely the right way to choose a leader that reflects less populous regions.
The graphic of counties that voted GOP is pretty stark.
Then why do you support equalisation of constituencies ? Newcastle Central having 50000 electors should have been fine then. Surely, Montana , the Dakotas, Alaska getting three votes [ 1 House Rep and 2 Senators ], whereas New York having only 29 or Texas 38 is surely undemocratic.
The population of Wyoming is 586k [ less than a tenth of New York City ]. NY State has 19.8m.
NY State's population is 34 times Wyomings. WY has 3 votes, NY 29. California with 39.1 has 66 times in population and 18 times more EC votes.
It is thoroughly undemocratic. You support this anachronism because it helps your lot to win. Period.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
There is a whole new blend of right-reactionary identity politics.
Odd thing, identity politics. It is to be encouraged, celebrated, lauded, if you are black, Muslim, female, LGBT, etc. So much so that it is all those differing groups are defined by. However, if you are WHITE, especially male and white, your identity is something to be scorned, derided, mocked, sneered at, demonised. There is no exception to this anywhere in the world, even (perhaps especially) in white majority countries. Indeed, white liberals and the liberal elite appear to be ashamed of their identity. The seething, deep rooted resentment that contributed to Brexit, and now a Trump presidency, has been in the making for many decades.
The problem is that sometimes people mistake political correctness for taking responsibility for yourself and not seeking to blame minorities for anything bad in your life. In NI, I regularly come across people pointing at 'themmuns' as getting everything.
well that's just a racist sectarian comment from a blow in :-)
I love it really. I think I like living here because I'm regarded as right of centre in England but am pretty much a dangerous radical lefty here.
Everyone should experience an alternative reality :-)
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Really? The democrats have to defeat Trump / pence, labour have to defeat May. Trump makes Farage appear centrist, May so far sounds a lot like a Democrat.
May's border control, sceptical of corppratism message is classic Trump, the Democrats are likely to move in a Corbynite direction now the Clinton/New Democrat era has ended, much as Labour did after the death of Blairism/New Labour
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Really? The democrats have to defeat Trump / pence, labour have to defeat May. Trump makes Farage appear centrist, May so far sounds a lot like a Democrat.
The common problem and urgent problem for the left is to present a vision (and find a vocabulary) to express what they are FOR.
As such, it does not matter who the opponent is. The left have spent far too much time talking about who or what they are AGAINST.
To an extent that, while the core values are sound, there is no connection between them and what the left actually want to do now, in 2016.
FFS...NUS have an anti-Semitic leader, but the snowflakes are up.in arms about university challenge.
Jeremy Paxman says he is "baffled" by students voting to boycott University Challenge over claims that a complaint about "misogynistic and sexist comments" was not taken seriously enough.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Tsk. Equating US with UK politics is a fools' game. Even more so this year. The vast, vast majority of Tory voters wouldn't have voted for Trump against anyone the Democrats could have come up with. Kippers, maybe.
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
If the figures I've seen are right, and the US used the popular vote to elect - the winner would be chosen by NY, Los Angeles et al. The electoral college is absolutely the right way to choose a leader that reflects less populous regions.
The graphic of counties that voted GOP is pretty stark.
In what way is that argument meaningfully different from Sturgeon's assertion that Brexit should only be triggered if there was a majority for it in a majority of the UK's four countries?
Over the past 200 years, the US has - amongst other things - engaged in a civil war which on one side was to enable one race to enslave another and on the other side was to deny self-determination; it practiced apartheid over large parts until the 1960s, enforced by the Klan; it has suffered from gangsterism, McCarthyism and huge inequalities; it routinely desecrated its environment; and it perpetrated a still-largely-unrecognised genocide against Native Americans.
At the same time, the same America was one of the most open, dynamic, socially mobile countries in the world; it produced tremendous advances in the standard of living for most of its citizens; it led and leads the world in artistic, creative endeavours; it prides itself, not without reason, on its respect for the law, for democracy and freedom; it has been largely successful in building a country and a nation and assimilating many millions of immigrants and former slaves; and it has twice saved the world from authoritarianism and totalitarianism.
It will survive the election of an orange narcissist.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
That's so daft it's mad
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
It's not daft at all. The dialogue between the UK and the US is hugely productive. It flows both ways and has impact.
On the right, look at the Farage-Trump thing in this election. Look at Thatcher-Reaganomics before.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Tsk. Equating US with UK politics is a fools' game. Even more so this year. The vast, vast majority of Tory voters wouldn't have voted for Trump against anyone the Democrats could have come up with. Kippers, maybe.
Who is equating it? The are clearly not the same. But it's obvious that they inspire each other and ideas flow across the Atlantic.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Given that the next parliamentary and presidential elections are (currently) scheduled to be held within six months of each other I'm sure that is actually much of a plus - it's possible that both the US and UK left could lead each other down a path to even greater defeats together than they might have otherwise suffered alone.
The democratic global west is about 1 billion people - with the US, UK and France accounting for almost half of that. It's terrifyingly possible that almost 50% of the western democratic world may end up as, effectively, one party states not because the ruling group is massively wonderful but because these nations natural opposition cannot be trusted to remember where they left their own feet.
It's curious as to why much of the Labour party has such a fascination with America - though don't complain too much as there's always the silly anti-Americanism of the Corbynistas. I have a left wing friend on facebook who joked today about watching DVDs of The West Wing. Maybe it has something to do with Labour being a 'moral crusade' and US politics being a bit more welcoming to that kind of righteous talk.
It looks like Hillary made the same organisational mistakes in 2016 Presidential that she made in the 2008 Primaries. Then, she had virtually zero organisation after Super-Tuesday. Obama , on the other hand, had small organisation everywhere including the Red states. He regularly swept up small numbers of delegates and ultimately the totals matter. In fact, the Potomac primaries just after Super Tuesday finished her off.
Not having visited Wisconsin even once is difficult to believe.
It's amusing, and salutary, to think that only a few months ago there was much speculation about how the choice of Trump as nominee would lead to electoral catastrophe, major problems down-ballot, and ultimately the end of the Republican Party.
Now they control the White House, Senate and House, and people are speculating about the end of Democrat-style liberal politics.
It's rather like 1992 in the UK: before the election, pundits thought Labour would win and the Tories would be in a bad way, then after the election it was Labour that was finished. When ever anyone talks about the 'death' of a major party or political stance, it's always worth remembering how that 1992 example worked out five years later. Even the 2016 Labour Party might conceivably not be dead.
In 1992 I can remember reading umpteen articles in the New Statesman and elsewhere about the End of Politics - the gist was that John Major was Margaret Thatcher with all the dislikable bits expunged, rendering the Tories invincible. Then we had Black Wednesday, 1997 and Robin Cook saying Labour would be in power 'for 50 years'.
Here's my super inexpert hot take on what's happening from a "tide of history" point of view.
In the 1970's a lot of shit happened and the 80's was the world dealing with it in decisive ways which led into the 90's. In the 90's a lot of shit happened, the most important of which if capital G Globalisation which the 00's spent dealing with -the direction being the complete embrace of it and the weakening of the nation state in favour of the corporation. The 20 teens is going to be the kicking off of a new "lot of shit happening" phase.
Trying to get a picture of my betting position of Betfair reminds me how much I fucking hate their accounts section and how super limited their betting history is.
Incidentally I see the bookies are taking money from fools over the French presidency. They have cut Le Pen from 6 to 2/1 barely touching anyone else's odds. Ladbrokes at 15/8 are having a laugh!!
If you would like 2 or even 3/1, I'll give it to you
These protesters really don't understand that their left-liberal identity politics is over, finished, kaput, do they?
I can see why you'd think that if they'd lost a landslide election... but given that the democrats won the popular vote- feels a bit premature to declare left-liberal identity politics as dead?
I've seen a few posts today of similar ilk. The election was won under the rules extant period! The percentage vote cast doesn't matter, similar to Labour or the Tories piling up votes in safe seats.
If the figures I've seen are right, and the US used the popular vote to elect - the winner would be chosen by NY, Los Angeles et al. The electoral college is absolutely the right way to choose a leader that reflects less populous regions.
The graphic of counties that voted GOP is pretty stark.
In what way is that argument meaningfully different from Sturgeon's assertion that Brexit should only be triggered if there was a majority for it in a majority of the UK's four countries?
You are asking sensible questions of Plato ? Shame on you.
This "whitelash" idea of Polly's doesn't make any sense when it seems that Democrats who voted for Obama did not vote for Clinton. It would seem to have little to do with race, and a lot to do with the quality of the candidate. But of course Polly's not going to write 1,000 words about why Hilary should never have been nominated is she?
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
That's so daft it's mad
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
It's not daft at all. The dialogue between the UK and the US is hugely productive. It flows both ways and has impact.
On the right, look at the Farage-Trump thing in this election. Look at Thatcher-Reaganomics before.
Sheesh now youre arguing for Farage and US economics as good things. They are crap.
In the same way political correctness, the third way, concrete modernism and Justin Timberlake are also crap.
Incidentally I see the bookies are taking money from fools over the French presidency. They have cut Le Pen from 6 to 2/1 barely touching anyone else's odds.
If you would like 2 or even 3/1, I'll give it to you
Presumably there is no way that Hollande runs and makes it into the final 2 with Le Pen? (He's the only one that I can see her beating in a 1-on-1)
Also I'm suspending judgement on my call about the Dems have serious demographic problems until the full large scale Election survey is done. Finding out which 2012 Dems didn't turn out or voted for Trump is vital for understanding how deep a hole they are in. It could be superficially shallow or it could be a cavern
It looks like Hillary made the same organisational mistakes in 2016 Presidential that she made in the 2008 Primaries. Then, she had virtually zero organisation after Super-Tuesday. Obama , on the other hand, had small organisation everywhere including the Red states. He regularly swept up small numbers of delegates and ultimately the totals matter. In fact, the Potomac primaries just after Super Tuesday finished her off.
Not having visited Wisconsin even once is difficult to believe.
Yes. It is, rather. Had to understand how such a large organisation as her campaign team made such obvious errors. It's not a short campaign.
Incidentally I see the bookies are taking money from fools over the French presidency. They have cut Le Pen from 6 to 2/1 barely touching anyone else's odds.
If you would like 2 or even 3/1, I'll give it to you
Presumably there is no way that Hollande runs and makes it into the final 2 with Le Pen? (He's the only one that I can see her beating in a 1-on-1)
He's currently polling 8%... he needs 20% to make it to the second round, even on a spread out field.
Labour should listen to Margaret Hodge on how she chased the BNP and Nick Griffin out of her Barking constituency, by outright challenge, not by bending towards them.
That's not quite how her colleague Steve Bell saw it:
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
That's so daft it's mad
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
This "whitelash" idea of Polly's doesn't make any sense when it seems that Democrats who voted for Obama did not vote for Clinton. It would seem to have little to do with race, and a lot to do with the quality of the candidate. But of course Polly's not going to write 1,000 words about why Hilary should never have been nominated is she?
If black voters wont turn out in sufficient numbers for a white candidate I'd suggest race is a factor;
I was struck by a C4 interview with a black guy who voted Obama but wouldnt vote Hillary because she wasnt black.
One silver lining for the British left is that we're now back in sync with the American left.
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
That's so daft it's mad
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
Comments
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/26/joe-biden-says-democrats-dont-associate-with-diffi/
Voters take the good things for granted, and think that they are not threatened by simplistic populist messages, but of course they are.
I must admit I had assumed that rising median incomes was inevitable as long as technology continued to make us more efficient at what we do. Technology has continued in the last 17 years so why the breakdown?
Either way - the first thing that he'll need to do is get an agreement from Congress to get the debt ceiling raised. Not sure how that'll go down with the Ron Paul types in the GOP?
Thus I don't think it's the case that Clinton/Bush/Obama have all been the same/been doing the same things/been getting the same results.
In any case- the largest growth as shown in the graph comes from Bill Clinton... so seems strange to say it would be insane to vote for Hilary- she will be more of the same and not lead to wage growth when her husband was so successful in that.
What about the other counterfactual? Would Kasich or Rubio have beaten Hillary?
The reaction to the result by the American people is even more pathetic than by the Remainers to the EU referendum result in June. Don't people believe in democracy any more?
Donald = Sunderland
The people, again, made the right choice.
Where was the biggest swing to Trump btw Rhodes Island ?
Oh...and don't equate the wealthy with $50,000. The merely comfortable have fallen, way, way behind the truly wealthy 0.0001%. They are shit angry they can't afford private schools or holidays while crooked Hillary bags $300,000 for a speech to Goldman Sachs.
Today's cover: This is how Donald Trump won the election https://t.co/KXX7V3a7z3 https://t.co/Ertn8Gydcw
Time to move on.
After New Hampshire the snake got deep blue very quickly. That was the firewall - proof against Trump. The firewall - holding back the red surge before trump won was CO, MI, WI,PA. The states in front of the firewall - those that Trump had to take before the fire could get close to and could therefore be sacrificed were NV, FL, OH, IA, NC.
It was because Trump had to take all the 'sacrifical' states before he could get even close to the 'firewall' that made Clinton's position so secure. If you have even money on taking any of those 5 'sacrifical' states then in theory the odds are 31/32 that one would hold up. (Actually the odds are less because changes in vote share are not independent, but you get the drift.)
(the colour of the snake changed during the night and states actually called were put to the back of the appropriate queue - did anyone bother going over to check?)
https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/796263508124037120
Similar if less pronounced picture... big dip end of Bush/under Obama that we are now recovering from... basically stagnant under Bush... significant rise under Clinton I.
I don't really remember Hilary making much of her husband's record... there was one answer in the debate on it... Maybe it's too long ago- but feels like perhaps should have been a larger part of her offer particularly to those people you identify as frustrated with lack of wage increases.
Western societies have lost themselves in this Orwellian group think, and if Brexit and Trump's election press the reset button, then I'm all for it.
if people wont tell you what they think then what's the point in polling ?
shocks all rouind
Polly Toynbee on The Donald
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/brexit-trump-whitelash-politicians-must-not-pander
Trump's victory is hardly a landslide. Even Michigan was won by barely 13k votes. In 2020, Arizona will come into play and by 2024 so will Texas.
When the new factories magically do not reappear in the rust belt and are replaced by warehouse and insurance companies, I wonder who the Trumpers would for instead.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I40q11O5W4E
* don't be put off by the fact the interviewee writes for Alex Jones nonsense, he drops the act for this interview.
The graphic of counties that voted GOP is pretty stark.
https://goo.gl/images/XMHBy8
Labour should listen to Margaret Hodge on how she chased the BNP and Nick Griffin out of her Barking constituency, by outright challenge, not by bending towards them.
That's not quite how her colleague Steve Bell saw it:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2007/05/22/stevebell512ready.jpg
'Here's the one we've all be waiting for:
Polly Toynbee on The Donald
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/brexit-trump-whitelash-politicians-must-not-pander'
It's social democracy or the end of civilization,what a load of crap.
Always a wrong 'un to me.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/hillary-clinton-election-president-loss
Whatever solutions the American left come up with to Trump (and they will come up with solutions) will feed back to the UK left.
For a while we've been out of sync. So the flow of ideas (e.g. Wilson benefitting from Kennedy and Blair benefitting from Clinton) has not been there.
Now they control the White House, Senate and House, and people are speculating about the end of Democrat-style liberal politics.
It's rather like 1992 in the UK: before the election, pundits thought Labour would win and the Tories would be in a bad way, then after the election it was Labour that was finished. When ever anyone talks about the 'death' of a major party or political stance, it's always worth remembering how that 1992 example worked out five years later. Even the 2016 Labour Party might conceivably not be dead.
The biggest failing of the UK left has been to import ideas wholesale from the US and to apply them in the UK. The conditions as we have seen this week in both countries are different. Just about every crap idea I can think of has been imported from the US and applied here as if the conditions are the same. And for the record the right isnt much better.
Once we decide to start solving our own problems ourselves well be in with a chance of making progress.
The population of Wyoming is 586k [ less than a tenth of New York City ]. NY State has 19.8m.
NY State's population is 34 times Wyomings. WY has 3 votes, NY 29. California with 39.1 has 66 times in population and 18 times more EC votes.
It is thoroughly undemocratic. You support this anachronism because it helps your lot to win. Period.
As such, it does not matter who the opponent is. The left have spent far too much time talking about who or what they are AGAINST.
To an extent that, while the core values are sound, there is no connection between them and what the left actually want to do now, in 2016.
Jeremy Paxman says he is "baffled" by students voting to boycott University Challenge over claims that a complaint about "misogynistic and sexist comments" was not taken seriously enough.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37926729
At the same time, the same America was one of the most open, dynamic, socially mobile countries in the world; it produced tremendous advances in the standard of living for most of its citizens; it led and leads the world in artistic, creative endeavours; it prides itself, not without reason, on its respect for the law, for democracy and freedom; it has been largely successful in building a country and a nation and assimilating many millions of immigrants and former slaves; and it has twice saved the world from authoritarianism and totalitarianism.
It will survive the election of an orange narcissist.
On the right, look at the Farage-Trump thing in this election. Look at Thatcher-Reaganomics before.
Farage-Trump was and is a thing.
The democratic global west is about 1 billion people - with the US, UK and France accounting for almost half of that. It's terrifyingly possible that almost 50% of the western democratic world may end up as, effectively, one party states not because the ruling group is massively wonderful but because these nations natural opposition cannot be trusted to remember where they left their own feet.
Not having visited Wisconsin even once is difficult to believe.
In the 1970's a lot of shit happened and the 80's was the world dealing with it in decisive ways which led into the 90's. In the 90's a lot of shit happened, the most important of which if capital G Globalisation which the 00's spent dealing with -the direction being the complete embrace of it and the weakening of the nation state in favour of the corporation. The 20 teens is going to be the kicking off of a new "lot of shit happening" phase.
If you would like 2 or even 3/1, I'll give it to you
In the same way political correctness, the third way, concrete modernism and Justin Timberlake are also crap.
I was struck by a C4 interview with a black guy who voted Obama but wouldnt vote Hillary because she wasnt black.