Couple of points. 30% of the people asked still want to see a far left anti-British extremist like Corbyn as PM - worrying. Also, 50% of the people asked said the government was doing a bad job negotiating Brexit. Precisely what is the qualification for that question? NOBODY knows what the negotiations are!! Bizarre.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Racist
But, seriously, a very good argument for at least some immigration. Just what percentage of famous British thought leaders and innovators have at least some foreign blood or long term foreign residency would be an interesting statistic.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Couple of points. 30% of the people asked still want to see a far left anti-British extremist like Corbyn as PM - worrying. Also, 50% of the people asked said the government was doing a bad job negotiating Brexit. Precisely what is the qualification for that question? NOBODY knows what the negotiations are!! Bizarre.
There aren't any. Just three bozos clowning around an embarrassing the nation.
That negotiating Brexit question is a bit of a duffer. We can't start negotiating until A50 has been invoked - and then we've got two years. Maybe some stupid people think we're already negotiating officially. Bit disingenuous of YouGov.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that Rhodes didn't view himself as South African: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
So one crazy rumour I've heard is that trump agreed to stick to script and use a teleprompter for six days of the week as long as he was allowed to go off teleprompter on Fridays, maybe that also applies to phone usage given the phenomenal tweets we are seeing that started at 2 in the morning today.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Ted Heath and the EEC? I know some people see it as delusion rather than vision. Tony Blair and international interventionism as a force for good. He was even going on about the Peace of Westphalia at one point.
In general I agree with you. In particular I can't think of any foreign minister that has made any mark at all. Unlike, say, Dean Acheson and Henry Kissinger in the US or Hans-Dietrich Genscher in Germany. Several Federal Chancellors did stints as FMs beforehand
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that Rhodes didn't view himself as South African: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
Mr B, I think you are taking some light-hearted banter with Dr Prasannan way too seriously.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
Does that make Fox, Davis and BoJo the League of Gentlemen?
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
Couple of points. 30% of the people asked still want to see a far left anti-British extremist like Corbyn as PM - worrying. Also, 50% of the people asked said the government was doing a bad job negotiating Brexit. Precisely what is the qualification for that question? NOBODY knows what the negotiations are!! Bizarre.
Opinion polls, especially when no where near an election, are a cost free way to send a message to your representatives, not to be confused with telling anyone what you really think
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
Does that make Fox, Davis and BoJo the League of Gentlemen?
"This is a Local Airport for Local People! There's nothing for you here!"
Couple of points. 30% of the people asked still want to see a far left anti-British extremist like Corbyn as PM - worrying. Also, 50% of the people asked said the government was doing a bad job negotiating Brexit. Precisely what is the qualification for that question? NOBODY knows what the negotiations are!! Bizarre.
There aren't any. Just three bozos clowning around an embarrassing the nation.
Possibly because the PM said she was not going to be giving a running commentary or giving away our negotiating position before the fact, but dont let that stop your bile. Come to think about it we haven't had a hymn of hate of Trump for at least 15 seconds either, your slipping.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
Quite clever if true!
This YouGov poll shows the country thinks Davis and Fox are crap.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Ted Heath and the EEC? I know some people see it as delusion rather than vision. Tony Blair and international interventionism as a force for good. He was even going on about the Peace of Westphalia at one point.
In general I agree with you. In particular I can't think of any foreign minister that has made any mark at all. Unlike, say, Dean Acheson and Henry Kissinger in the US or Hans-Dietrich Genscher in Germany. Several Federal Chancellors did stints as FMs beforehand
Bevin certainly made a mark as FSec, although the pattern was already set to a large extent. It's been extremely rare though to get the necessary combination of (1) a politician with a very powerful independent base appointed as FSec, (2) that politician having an interest in and aptitude for foreign policy, and (3) a prime minister unwilling to become too involved in international matters. The 1945 government, which had a huge domestic reform agenda, was one such but there've been few others. The reality is that modern communications and the summit cycle mean that a PM has to take the lead a lot of the time.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Racist
But, seriously, a very good argument for at least some immigration. Just what percentage of famous British thought leaders and innovators have at least some foreign blood or long term foreign residency would be an interesting statistic.
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
How can she negotiate with Europe when at her back are Tory party split several different ways on the EU and willing to knife her at the first opportunity?
We are at risk of getting a negotiation that is not in the best interest of the country but in the best interest of May surviving as PM.
For the best interest of the country I think we need a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make.
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Ted Heath and the EEC? I know some people see it as delusion rather than vision. Tony Blair and international interventionism as a force for good. He was even going on about the Peace of Westphalia at one point.
In general I agree with you. In particular I can't think of any foreign minister that has made any mark at all. Unlike, say, Dean Acheson and Henry Kissinger in the US or Hans-Dietrich Genscher in Germany. Several Federal Chancellors did stints as FMs beforehand
Was Heath and the EEC vision, or reaction to his Chancellor's attempts to destroy the British economy and the existing reality of Germany and France growing way faster than the UK?
I'll grant you that Tony Blair was more visionary re international interventionism.
30 years ago, when preparing for a promotion board in the FCO, I was asked by the then Head of Middle East Department what Britain's policy towards the Middle East should be. I got a few sentences into what would have been a convoluted response, when he stopped me. 'Tim, we don't have the resources to implement any policy. We can only react.'
I realized the truth in those words, but I never understood why it should mean that we needn't reflect on what we want. Knowing that, at least we could fashion our responses such that they might steer outcomes in a desired direction.
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that Rhodes didn't view himself as South African: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
Mr B, I think you are taking some light-hearted banter with Dr Prasannan way too seriously.
You're probably right. In my defence, Rhodes is something of a bête noire for me...
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
How can she negotiate with Europe when at her back are Tory party split several different ways on the EU and willing to knife her at the first opportunity?
We are at risk of getting a negotiation that is not in the best interest of the country but in the best interest of May surviving as PM.
For the best interest of the country I think we need a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make.
Well this was my point yesterday; anything short of hard brexit I can't see the bastards doffing their caps, accepting it has all been done with the best of intentions but you can't win them all, and voting it through.
That's why the Cons supporters saying they don't want an early election I believe are so mistaken. A larger majority not only means she doesn't have to worry about Lab, but that she doesn't have to worry about any rebels.
The country needs a pragmatic solution that is as good as possible under the circumstances, not a solution dictated by the loons.
TSE - this is a Russian push at the moment related to sanctions against them re Crimea and Ukraine. There argument is that terrorism and the issues of the Middle East are a common threat to Russia and the West, and we should be uniting against that (i.e. lifting sanctions against Russia and ignoring whatever else they are doing we don't like)
FPT @ Sunil "Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!"
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African Churchill - half American Brunel - half French
Racist
But, seriously, a very good argument for at least some immigration. Just what percentage of famous British thought leaders and innovators have at least some foreign blood or long term foreign residency would be an interesting statistic.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
At the very least it buys her some time: She can let them faff around and argue with each other for a couple of years, then dramatically fire them for failing to deliver Brexit. Then she can bring Gove and Priti Patel in and repeat the whole procedure.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
The boring explanation, I think, is they would be forced to sell whatever they negotiated to the public. As Brexiteers they would have put some thought into how to achieve it (Hadn't DD written something up in ConservativeHome just the week before? )
It didn't impinge on her consciousness that there were some very tricky jobs to be done first. I don't imagine Theresa May is a stupid woman. She must be saying to herself now, what on earth was I thinking?
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
It's a crap theory. If they fail, then by association, May will be remembered as the Worst. Prime. Minister. E-v-v-a-h!!!
And let's face it, nobody goes into politics to make Gordon Brown look good....
Dr. Prasannan, reminds me of the Yorkshire air sketch. Takes off Leeds-Bradford airport, lands Leeds-Bradford airport. Because if it's not in Yorkshire it's not bloody worth seeing.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
At the very least it buys her some time: She can let them faff around and argue with each other for a couple of years, then dramatically fire them for failing to deliver Brexit. Then she can bring Gove and Priti Patel in and repeat the whole procedure.
At what point does 'the buck stops here' principle apply though? Voters already think 'the government' is doing a bad job of Brexit 50-16, how long before rage-filled, Brexity eyes turn to the employer of these grade A doofuses?
Just to clarify on well meaning comments from the previous thread - I know those by elections are not actually parish council elections; it was just my way of making the point that not only do very few people turnout for local by elections, thereby over highlighting swings of committed voters, they also bear little relation to nationwide Westminster elections or by elections.
My lovely, but more right wing than Thatcher grandmother votes Lib D in local elections because she thinks they're better councillors locally - but literally laughs at the party nationally.
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
As a negotiating strategy, I'd hold off on telling the EU what we want that is negotiable until as late as possible. Let them tell us some of what they want first. But clearly, we have to make a first move.
This means starting off by saying 'These are the non-negotiable things we must have. Given these, and our (EU/UK) mutual interests, how do you (EU) suggest we proceed to do least damage to these mutual interests?' while making it clear that we are prepared to walk without a deal if the EU says no deal without negotiating the non-negotiables.
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
How can she negotiate with Europe when at her back are Tory party split several different ways on the EU and willing to knife her at the first opportunity?
We are at risk of getting a negotiation that is not in the best interest of the country but in the best interest of May surviving as PM.
For the best interest of the country I think we need a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make.
Leaving aside that the mechanics of that mean it's simply not going to happen, what does "a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make" mean in practice?
The historical lacuna is even more blatant in the extended text:
"...September 30 is one of the most tragic dates in the 20th century. On this day in 1938, the Prime Ministers of Great Britain and France Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier met with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini in Munich and signed a settlement on the transferring to Germany of the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia. The representatives of the latter country were only invited to be coerced into signing the pact. This notorious agreement became known as the Munich Betrayal. Poland and Hungary later occupied more areas of Czechoslovakia.
What the Munich Betrayal actually meant was the capitulation of the Western European countries in the face of Nazism. Their leaders chose not to join forces with the Soviet Union in the fight against Germany’s National Socialism, and opted instead to appease the aggressor in an attempt to deflect the threat and steer the German war machine to the East. On the same day, September 30, Chamberlain and Hitler signed a declaration of non-aggression, and a similar pact was signed by Ribbentrop and French Foreign Minister Georges Bonnet-Etienne on December 6, 1938.
The appeasement allowed Hitler to launch the Second World War..."
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
At the very least it buys her some time: She can let them faff around and argue with each other for a couple of years, then dramatically fire them for failing to deliver Brexit. Then she can bring Gove and Priti Patel in and repeat the whole procedure.
At what point does 'the buck stops here' principle apply though? Voters already think 'the government' is doing a bad job of Brexit 50-16, how long before rage-filled Brexity eyes turn to the employer of these grade A doofuses?
The principle of 'ever closer union' has been replaced with 'ever more distant divorce'.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
At the very least it buys her some time: She can let them faff around and argue with each other for a couple of years, then dramatically fire them for failing to deliver Brexit. Then she can bring Gove and Priti Patel in and repeat the whole procedure.
At what point does 'the buck stops here' principle apply though? Voters already think 'the government' is doing a bad job of Brexit 50-16, how long before rage-filled Brexity eyes turn to the employer of these grade A doofuses?
You're forgetting the other important question - who is better placed to deliver? That is not going to be Corbyn or Fallon.
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that Rhodes didn't view himself as South African: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
Mr B, I think you are taking some light-hearted banter with Dr Prasannan way too seriously.
You're probably right. In my defence, Rhodes is something of a bête noire for me...
I remember a class in primary school back in the mid-60s, and the teacher explaining how Rhodesia got its name. Even then, the explanation came with an expose off how Rhodes' views were unacceptable in modern society.
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fiscal stance, etc). So far, I think it's fair to say that voters, our EU friends, and business have accepted that as being sensible in the circumstances, but obviously there is a limit to how long that stance is credible. Murmurs of 'dithering' have been heard, although not loudly yet.
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air. .
How can she negotiate with Europe when at her back are Tory party split several different ways on the EU and willing to knife her at the first opportunity?
We are at risk of getting a negotiation that is not in the best interest of the country but in the best interest of May surviving as PM.
For the best interest of the country I think we need a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make.
Leaving aside that the mechanics of that mean it's simply not going to happen, what does "a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make" mean in practice?
Mainly that I don't think 'left' and 'right' really work when talking about international relations and that if Brexit is to be the main source of discussion for the next 10 years, it would be good to have groupings of MPs that are coherent in their view on it.
Yes you are right that it will never happen though.
If it says "Winner of the XXX Prize", that suggest the author has got something about them and might make me take notice. Obv. Nobel prize for literature counts more highly than Richard & Judy book club.
(Funnily enough, I am currently reading a book by the 2006 Nobel Laureate)
As a negotiating strategy, I'd hold off on telling the EU what we want that is negotiable until as late as possible. Let them tell us some of what they want first. But clearly, we have to make a first move.
This means starting off by saying 'These are the non-negotiable things we must have. Given these, and our (EU/UK) mutual interests, how do you (EU) suggest we proceed to do least damage to these mutual interests?' while making it clear that we are prepared to walk without a deal if the EU says no deal without negotiating the non-negotiables.
Whilst I don't disagree, the big complication is that we are not negotiating with 'the EU' as a coherent body with power to cut a deal. Instead we are engaged in a complex multi-lateral and multi-faceted dance with a hotchpotch of 27 countries, the Commission, and eventually the EU parliament. They don't know what they want, if they did know they wouldn't all want the same thing, and it's unclear what the mechanism for them to reach an agreed position will be.
Can we drop the sanctimony about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? In contrast to Britain, Russia actually was a prime target of Hitler's desire for Lebensraum and they had different choices to make to buy time. Without it the Nazi-Soviet war would have started a few hundred miles further east and may have had a different outcome.
Full Single Market membership backed by Tory MP Ben Howlett. < The Telegraph: Britain needs to stay in the single market in order to make the best of Brexit. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwo-Tv9TE
But, as others have already said, Vision is a very un-British thing.
Rhodes, Brunel, Churchill, to name but a few, had plenty of vision!
Emigrated at 17, French, and half American, respectively
PS Snap. I was a little slow at posting my response as dogs were whining to be let out.
Dr. Ishmael is also a racist!
No, Dr Prasanan, think it through: you are the one implying that Rhodes was not South African. Is that because he was an immigrant with a different skin colour from the indigenous inhabitants? Dearie me.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that Rhodes didn't view himself as South African: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
Mr B, I think you are taking some light-hearted banter with Dr Prasannan way too seriously.
You're probably right. In my defence, Rhodes is something of a bête noire for me...
I remember a class in primary school back in the mid-60s, and the teacher explaining how Rhodesia got its name. Even then, the explanation came with an expose off how Rhodes' views were unacceptable in modern society.
There is still a Rhodesia in Nottinghamshire (near worksop) and it has a street called Cecil Close.
Nottingham is also twinned with Harare (Salisbury) and has the higbest poplulation of Rhodesians Zimbabweans in the UK.
Full Single Market membership backed by Tory MP Ben Howlett. < The Telegraph: Britain needs to stay in the single market in order to make the best of Brexit. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwo-Tv9TE
Theresa May started off by saying she and the new government needed some time to establish their positions on Brexit and on other contentious decisions (Heathrow, Hinkley Point, HS2, possible changes to Osborne's fis
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
Anything she says she wants immediately becomes a hostage to fortune and as you say is anyway outwith her power to deliver.
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
As a negotiating strategy, I'd hold off on telling the EU what we want that is negotiable until as late as possible. Let them tell us some of what they want first. But clearly, we have to make a first move.
This means starting off by saying 'These are the non-negotiable things we must have. Given these, and our (EU/UK) mutual interests, how do you (EU) suggest we proceed to do least damage to these mutual interests?' while making it clear that we are prepared to walk without a deal if the EU says no deal without negotiating the non-negotiables.
Yes I agree but...just as we don't know what the EU would say to an immigration red line, neither do we know whether Tezza will actually make immigration a red line.
As you say, we have to make the first move so hence, I would like these negotiations to be conducted in as much public as possible.
I think it would be good for us all if our negotiators walk into the room with a clear idea of what the country wants and hence argue tooth and nail for it.
Serious question for the day: Who invited Liam Fox back into Government? To say that this guy is anywhere near plans for the future post Brexit is fu*king scary. Don't the powers that be know he's a disgraced politician with dodgy links with war criminals around the World?
Theresa May.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
At the very least it buys her some time: She can let them faff around and argue with each other for a couple of years, then dramatically fire them for failing to deliver Brexit. Then she can bring Gove and Priti Patel in and repeat the whole procedure.
At what point does 'the buck stops here' principle apply though? Voters already think 'the government' is doing a bad job of Brexit 50-16, how long before rage-filled, Brexity eyes turn to the employer of these grade A doofuses?
She's up against Corbyn so the voters don't matter. From now until 2020 all politics is internal Tory politics.
Mr. T, cheers. To clarify, this is for a 'serious' book, so todger jokes are few and far between (although I do have a cross-dressing knight who has possibly the most amusing line I've ever written early in book 2).
Mr. Rentool, nice idea, but I don't have any prizes... and I gather making them up is frowned upon.
Comments
Edit: is this a surprise? The public will, as a whole, have made up their mind on Corbyn.
Lots of JC on the telly, and Labour didn't go down in the polls.
An omen for the general election.
In response to your query on the last thread, I shall plead the 5th.
Just look at the splits!
Con
15% Yes
76% No
Lab
65% Yes
22% No
I say us blues reach across party boundaries and give the red team what they want.
Anyone know how Ladbrokes' edit my acca works?
It cannot be like the way they are advertising it surely?
GEORGE Galloway has targeted Natalie McGarry’s Glasgow East seat after announcing he’ll stand again for Westminster.
The ex-Labour and Respect MP is convinced he can beat the SNP in the seat as an independent and campaign against a second Scots referendum.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/george-galloway-targets-glasgow-east-8945496
I was talking about foreign policy. Since the Great Game, I can't really think of any real UK foreign policy Vision (as opposed to many very effective reaction/response policies), except the retreat from East of Aden. "The winds of change" was a glimpse, not a vision.
Rising to the bait:
Rhodes - South African
Churchill - half American
Brunel - half French
Theresa May = Pound Shop Gordon Brown
Must be your public school thickness
She now needs to move into the next phase of actually making those decisions. In respect of Hinkley Point, she has now done so, after a botched start. There are indications that a final decision on Heathrow is coming soon. Even if those decisions are unpopular with some - and there's no way of pleasing everyone - she will, I think, get political credit, however grudging, for gripping them firmly.
Brexit, obviously, is the most important and far-reaching of the difficult issues she has to deal with. However, it's an issue which is not in her power to decide on unilaterally, so a further extensive and damaging period of uncertainty is inevitable - at least a year's worth, maybe more. That makes it even more important to show that she has a strong grip on those other contentious issues.
The most plausible theory I've heard is that by appointing Fox and Davis is her way of buggering up Brexit, so we never leave.
My pre-qualifying ramble is here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/malaysia-pre-qualifying.html
I agree the negotiating question is daft. It's like asking someone if they enjoyed dinner when the ingredients are still being chosen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes
One of Rhodes's primary motivators in politics and business was his professed belief that the English-speaking peoples were destined to greatness as, to quote his will, "the first race in the world".[3] Under the reasoning that "the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race",[3] he advocated vigorous settler colonialism and ultimately a reformation of the British Empire so that each component would be self-governing and represented in a single parliament in London. Ambitions such as these, juxtaposed with his policies regarding indigenous Africans in the Cape Colony—describing the country's black population as largely "in a state of barbarism", he advocated their governance as a "subject race" and was at the centre of moves to marginalise them politically—have led recent critics to characterise him as a white supremacist and "an architect of apartheid.”
And would it be entirely unfair to suggest that you're a little confused about the difference between immigrant and self-professed colonialist ?
Tony Blair and international interventionism as a force for good. He was even going on about the Peace of Westphalia at one point.
In general I agree with you. In particular I can't think of any foreign minister that has made any mark at all. Unlike, say, Dean Acheson and Henry Kissinger in the US or Hans-Dietrich Genscher in Germany. Several Federal Chancellors did stints as FMs beforehand
REMAIN 48%
We all assume border controls (or, as @Casino_Royale would have it, a letter from your employer) are the first non-negotiable but she can't even acknowledge this, given so many other balls are in the air.
Hence her no running commentary stance. I'm not sure how she gets round it, she must choose between pragmatism cards on the table this is what we want on the one hand, and the huge risk of being skewered politically for broken promises on the other.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006vm6j
Number of tweets about early voting: 0
We are at risk of getting a negotiation that is not in the best interest of the country but in the best interest of May surviving as PM.
For the best interest of the country I think we need a splitting of all the parties and subsequent re-alignment that better matches the choices we need to make.
I always seem to get them near me at orgies....
I'll grant you that Tony Blair was more visionary re international interventionism.
30 years ago, when preparing for a promotion board in the FCO, I was asked by the then Head of Middle East Department what Britain's policy towards the Middle East should be. I got a few sentences into what would have been a convoluted response, when he stopped me. 'Tim, we don't have the resources to implement any policy. We can only react.'
I realized the truth in those words, but I never understood why it should mean that we needn't reflect on what we want. Knowing that, at least we could fashion our responses such that they might steer outcomes in a desired direction.
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/781811591981461505
In my defence, Rhodes is something of a bête noire for me...
That's why the Cons supporters saying they don't want an early election I believe are so mistaken. A larger majority not only means she doesn't have to worry about Lab, but that she doesn't have to worry about any rebels.
The country needs a pragmatic solution that is as good as possible under the circumstances, not a solution dictated by the loons.
Poland was a year later, when The Russians snuggled up to Hitler.
It didn't impinge on her consciousness that there were some very tricky jobs to be done first. I don't imagine Theresa May is a stupid woman. She must be saying to herself now, what on earth was I thinking?
And let's face it, nobody goes into politics to make Gordon Brown look good....
https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/newt-gingrich-alicia-machado-is-the-new-benghazi-lie
My lovely, but more right wing than Thatcher grandmother votes Lib D in local elections because she thinks they're better councillors locally - but literally laughs at the party nationally.
This means starting off by saying 'These are the non-negotiable things we must have. Given these, and our (EU/UK) mutual interests, how do you (EU) suggest we proceed to do least damage to these mutual interests?' while making it clear that we are prepared to walk without a deal if the EU says no deal without negotiating the non-negotiables.
https://twitter.com/MorrisF1/status/781845030336094208
"...September 30 is one of the most tragic dates in the 20th century. On this day in 1938, the Prime Ministers of Great Britain and France Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier met with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini in Munich and signed a settlement on the transferring to Germany of the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia. The representatives of the latter country were only invited to be coerced into signing the pact. This notorious agreement became known as the Munich Betrayal. Poland and Hungary later occupied more areas of Czechoslovakia.
What the Munich Betrayal actually meant was the capitulation of the Western European countries in the face of Nazism. Their leaders chose not to join forces with the Soviet Union in the fight against Germany’s National Socialism, and opted instead to appease the aggressor in an attempt to deflect the threat and steer the German war machine to the East. On the same day, September 30, Chamberlain and Hitler signed a declaration of non-aggression, and a similar pact was signed by Ribbentrop and French Foreign Minister Georges Bonnet-Etienne on December 6, 1938.
The appeasement allowed Hitler to launch the Second World War..."
https://youtu.be/tbtAGvLdAdg
Yes you are right that it will never happen though.
(Funnily enough, I am currently reading a book by the 2006 Nobel Laureate)
Nottingham is also twinned with Harare (Salisbury) and has the higbest poplulation of Rhodesians Zimbabweans in the UK.
As you say, we have to make the first move so hence, I would like these negotiations to be conducted in as much public as possible.
I think it would be good for us all if our negotiators walk into the room with a clear idea of what the country wants and hence argue tooth and nail for it.
Mr. Rentool, nice idea, but I don't have any prizes... and I gather making them up is frowned upon.