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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysis: Corbyn has the worst end first year satisfaction

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysis: Corbyn has the worst end first year satisfaction ratings of any LAB leader in opposition

This last week has marked the first anniversary of Corbyn’s leadership of the Labour party and I thought it worth checking the standing of other LAB leaders at this stage.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    1st
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Ishmael_X said:

    1st

    Where did mine just go? Sheesh...
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Ishmael_X said:

    1st

    Where did mine just go? Sheesh...
    I am a mere pawn. But pawns get to move first.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Ishmael_X said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    1st

    Where did mine just go? Sheesh...
    I am a mere pawn. But pawns get to move first.
    Indeed. Stuck in the corner 'til well into the game, me.

    Anyway, on topic, as I was trying to say before...

    Corbyn: less popular than Michael Foot. Sums it all up quite nicely.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978
    This is where i can't see how labour tries to reunite behind corbyn after he wins. They are literally associating themselves with his incompetence. What happens in a run up to an election when members of his own shadow cabinet can't even bring themselves to endorse him...

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited September 2016
    At f##king last...

    New York bomb was 'act of terrorism', says Governor Cuomo

    And there was me thinking it was a minor domestic dispute that got a little out of hand.
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    FPT: my post-race analysis is up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/singapore-post-race-analysis-2016.html

    For those avoiding spoilers and wondering if it's worth watching the highlights, I'd say it is.

    On-topic: comrades, do not despair! Once the rigged pro-Tory bourgeois capitalist pigdog facade of governance ('democracy', as the despots laughingly call it) is dismantled and an improved form of responsible leadership (whereby Momentum members select Parliamentarians from a Chairman Corbyn-approved shortlist) we shall sweep to victory!
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    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    Mori has been producing interesting results for a long time. IIRC they had the Tories on 52% at one point in around 2008.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    Mori does keep showing higher Labour shares than all the other pollsters, but regardless: a number around 30% still isn't surprising. Product of Labour brand loyalty, the fact that people aren't thinking about choosing a Govt at the mo, and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab.

    Gordon Brown's Labour couldn't make 30% in 2010. Corbyn might only get to 25% next time - IF Labour doesn't split...
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,403
    edited September 2016
    9th like Corbyn in a poll of current party leaders.

    Edit - 11th like the number of goes these two have to get a first serve in!
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    At f##king last...

    New York bomb was 'act of terrorism', says Governor Cuomo

    And there was me thinking it was a minor domestic dispute that got a little out of hand.

    I wonder if there'll be much of a backlash? Americans aren't so used to our sophisticated first response of obfuscating the name and origin, diagnosing the mental problem and concluding that if he wasn't on a watch list he can't be a terrorist.
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    MTimT said:

    Good article and nice to see Casino joining the panel of above-the-line writers.

    I think Osborne has chosen a not-very-veiled oppositional role and May does not go in for rewarding that, so I suspect it'll be a while before his chance comes - if May becomes very unpopular, though, he might be seen as a useful reinforcement and/or possible replacement.

    Do we have any idea of the proportion of Tory MP's that would be vehemently opposed to a hard Brexit. That is, WTO rules at best? Those that would prefer in to hard brexit, and might vote against a hard brexit package in a commons vote?

    The judiciary may yet force this.
    If the judiciary succeed in blocking Brexit, the best case is UKIP emulating the SNP s 2015 performance in most of England, the worst case is civil war.
    A touch of hyperbole perhaps.

    Simply would need Parliament passing a law activating article 50. At worst it would be a delay of a few months.
    Does May have the votes? Ken C has already said he will vote it down. Anna Soubry most likely will follow. Osborne might stick the knife in. LibDems vote down. I guess if it is tricky the Ulster guys will rescue her.
    I suspect, if a vote were held, it would go like many in the US Senate. Once the counting were done, a certain number would be 'allowed' to vote their conscience while still ensuring the bill passed.

    I think enough Tories who are queasy about Brexit would be corralled into line, given that a general election in the aftermath of the Tories failing to deliver Brexit would not necessarily be the resounding success for the Tories that it might with Brexit in the bag. Those wavering Tory MPs will, no doubt, be made painfully aware of that. Along with other threats.
    Prudent Conservative opponents will not outright oppose but penelopise. Cunctators, as Leavers might well say.
    Lol.

    This is what an online dictionary says:

    'If you're a cunctator, you tend to procrastinate, or put off til later what you should probably do right now. Your teacher might call you a cunctator if you start writing your paper the night before it's due'

    https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/cunctator.

    Methinks it would be a brave teacher in this day and age.

    Still in regards to article 50, Theresa May is clearly being a bit of a cunctator.

    She clearly wasnt a cunctator where Osborne was concerned. Clearly it is unwise to be a cunctator when dealing with a c...
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016

    At f##king last...

    New York bomb was 'act of terrorism', says Governor Cuomo

    And there was me thinking it was a minor domestic dispute that got a little out of hand.

    I wonder if there'll be much of a backlash? Americans aren't so used to our sophisticated first response of obfuscating the name and origin, diagnosing the mental problem and concluding that if he wasn't on a watch list he can't be a terrorist.
    I suspect they consider that those who penelopise are cunctators.

    Or even penelopising cunctators.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    This is where i can't see how labour tries to reunite behind corbyn after he wins. They are literally associating themselves with his incompetence. What happens in a run up to an election when members of his own shadow cabinet can't even bring themselves to endorse him...

    Three things prevent a split: MPs own emotional attachment to the party, fear that Corbyn Labour would retain the party name (and with it many of the safest seats and all of what remains of the Labour tribal loyalty vote,) and Left fragmentation allowing Tories to come through the middle and win a crushing victory (and possibly opening up some seats to Ukip to compound the agony.)

    However, a full scale reselection battle for the entire PLP, with most MPs having to fight off Momentum takeovers of their local associations, may finally force the moderates' hands. If they are facing having their careers terminated by a radical majority amongst the membership, then they may well conclude that they have nothing left to lose by walking.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    edited September 2016
    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Saturday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left
  • Options

    At f##king last...

    New York bomb was 'act of terrorism', says Governor Cuomo

    And there was me thinking it was a minor domestic dispute that got a little out of hand.

    I wonder if there'll be much of a backlash? Americans aren't so used to our sophisticated first response of obfuscating the name and origin, diagnosing the mental problem and concluding that if he wasn't on a watch list he can't be a terrorist.
    They did the same over the San Bernardino shootings and there is somewhere else where they never said if it was [Islamic] Terrorism, but it was a series of murders (I want to say Texas).
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    Mr. Bedfordshire, then the online dictionary needs correcting.

    Quintus Fabius Maximus, the original Cunctator, or Delayer, did precisely the right thing by refusing battle with Hannibal to allow Rome's strength to be rebuilt (excepting when he went to the rescue of his magister equitum).
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    If what you report of Kinnock is accurate, then I would not be surprised. IMHO it is quite possible that there will never be another Labour Government. Evidence suggests that the majority in the country are right or right-leaning: fast forward ten or fifteen years and the two main parties at Westminster may be a centre-right Government and a right-wing Opposition.

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.

    If Ukip are going to make any meaningful progress then it is going to be against a weakened and very left-wing Labour Party. If anything, I imagine that May would be thrilled by such a prospect. Labour will be fighting the next election on several fronts at the same time, and if Ukip can do any damage to Labour in Northern heartland areas (i.e. largely in seats where the Tories are completely uncompetitive) then it will only weaken the principal opposition party, and leave the Parliamentary opposition as a whole even more fragmented than it is already. This can only be good news for the Conservatives.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Ishmael_X said:

    1st

    Where did mine just go? Sheesh...
    The Compliance Unit purged you.
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    Mr. Monksfield, put in less? :p

    Sorry, I have no helpful advice to offer.
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    In case anyone was concerned the world was too stable at the moment, there's also been an attack in Kashmir (Indian bit):
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-37399969
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited September 2016

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Damson trees are funny old things.

    Not Damson Jam? What would Jezza say...
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Ah, Gordon - just as I remember him
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    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
  • Options

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Try making a small batch and see if you need more or less sugar?
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978

    This is where i can't see how labour tries to reunite behind corbyn after he wins. They are literally associating themselves with his incompetence. What happens in a run up to an election when members of his own shadow cabinet can't even bring themselves to endorse him...

    Three things prevent a split: MPs own emotional attachment to the party, fear that Corbyn Labour would retain the party name (and with it many of the safest seats and all of what remains of the Labour tribal loyalty vote,) and Left fragmentation allowing Tories to come through the middle and win a crushing victory (and possibly opening up some seats to Ukip to compound the agony.)

    However, a full scale reselection battle for the entire PLP, with most MPs having to fight off Momentum takeovers of their local associations, may finally force the moderates' hands. If they are facing having their careers terminated by a radical majority amongst the membership, then they may well conclude that they have nothing left to lose by walking.
    I think that is a fair analysis. What i found revealing this morning was Corbyn refusing to deny he'd seek to remove both Watson and Mcnicol. This reelection will only embolden him and would not be suprised if both he and McDonnell attempt to push for reselection.

    I'm still generally amazed that corbyn seeks to reform the party into a social movement, away from the traditional parliamentary representative democracy the Labour seeks to shape. That in itself is utterly barmy and doomed to failure.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    One year I got 100kg of damsons from 3 trees. They were so laden the branches were touching the ground.

    Best jam I've ever made. But in retrospect, as this was in Geneva, I should have taken my mash to the local alembique and had some aquavit made up.
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    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Maomentum_: Dignitas stall at Labour Party conference expecting brisk business.
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    Mr. Glenn, indeed, but Farron's a lefty, and Corbyn's got the properly leftwing vote sewn up. By default, with Kippers on the right and Corbynistas on the left, the Conservatives appear centrist with bloody huge room to manoeuvre.

    I'm unconvinced Farron's EU-philia will play well.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    If what you report of Kinnock is accurate, then I would not be surprised. IMHO it is quite possible that there will never be another Labour Government. Evidence suggests that the majority in the country are right or right-leaning: fast forward ten or fifteen years and the two main parties at Westminster may be a centre-right Government and a right-wing Opposition.

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.

    If Ukip are going to make any meaningful progress then it is going to be against a weakened and very left-wing Labour Party. If anything, I imagine that May would be thrilled by such a prospect. Labour will be fighting the next election on several fronts at the same time, and if Ukip can do any damage to Labour in Northern heartland areas (i.e. largely in seats where the Tories are completely uncompetitive) then it will only weaken the principal opposition party, and leave the Parliamentary opposition as a whole even more fragmented than it is already. This can only be good news for the Conservatives.
    It depends on whether Labour can come to its senses after a heavy Corbyn/McDonnell defeat in 2020 and elect a electable moderate or if the hard left retains its grip. Of course it is not impossible we could have a centre-right party and a populist right party as the 2 main parties, that is now the case in Poland for example and heading that way in the Netherlands and France.

    While that would certainly lead to further inroads by UKIP into some of the Leave Labour voting white working class, I disagree that the Tories would be invulnerable. A majority of Tories voted Leave after all and many Tories, especially amongst the lower middle class in the likes of Kent and Essex want to see Britain not only out of the EU but out of the single market with no free movement at all. If May compromises on that in any way some may move to UKIP. Indeed her grammar schools policy is partly an attempt to keep most of them in the Tory tent
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    Mr. Glenn, indeed, but Farron's a lefty, and Corbyn's got the properly leftwing vote sewn up. By default, with Kippers on the right and Corbynistas on the left, the Conservatives appear centrist with bloody huge room to manoeuvre.

    I'm unconvinced Farron's EU-philia will play well.

    He's got 48% to appeal to.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Except the LDs in the UK and the FDP in Germany both polled under 10% at their last general elections on an orange-book liberal agenda
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    Mr. Song, disagree. That was 48% to stay in, not 48% to either ignore the result or 48% to re-join.

    "Vote for me, I have contempt for democracy" isn't a great slogan.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Except the LDs in the UK and the FDP in Germany both polled under 10% at their last general elections on an orange-book liberal agenda
    The prerequisite would be the two mainstream parties delegitimising themselves.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Damson trees are funny old things.

    Not Damson Jam? What would Jezza say...
    Not really a fan of the hairshirt school of socialism, myself. I'll stop there as I could enter Roger territory.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Try making a small batch and see if you need more or less sugar?
    Trouble is, you need to wait months to see what it's like. I'm working on the premise of starting with less then you can always add more.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Very good question, lots of people make it too sweet. I use half the weight of fruit - 450g sloes, 225g sugar and 1 litre gin. Try undershooting this - say 200g sugar - and increasing after a month if its too tart.

    I deep freeze sloes for 24 hours if they haven't had a frost on them. This may just be superstition.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Mr. Glenn, indeed, but Farron's a lefty, and Corbyn's got the properly leftwing vote sewn up. By default, with Kippers on the right and Corbynistas on the left, the Conservatives appear centrist with bloody huge room to manoeuvre.

    I'm unconvinced Farron's EU-philia will play well.

    Exactly. If Lib Dems are to have much of a future, it lies in trying to peel wet votes back off the left flank of the Tories. Hard work in any case, but far more so with left-leaning activists and a left-leaning leader.

    You can't just magic into existence an alternative Lib Dem party which makes a soft centre-right pitch and can, therefore, state categorically that it won't prop up any left-wing Government AND make that promise believable to its target voters.

    The Tories are the closest party to the centre of public opinion; moreover, May hardly has to worry about the Yellow/Wet Tory vote, which might be somewhat nervous of a less liberal and more traditionalist approach, because they have nowhere else to go. This renders the electoral position of the Conservative Party formidable.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Try making a small batch and see if you need more or less sugar?
    Trouble is, you need to wait months to see what it's like. I'm working on the premise of starting with less then you can always add more.
    Worth trying a few specialist forums - my winemaking friend uses them quite a lot for suggestions
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    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Try making a small batch and see if you need more or less sugar?
    Trouble is, you need to wait months to see what it's like. I'm working on the premise of starting with less then you can always add more.
    I suspect Jeremy Corbyn would - in all seriousness - know the answer.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    edited September 2016

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Except the LDs in the UK and the FDP in Germany both polled under 10% at their last general elections on an orange-book liberal agenda
    The prerequisite would be the two mainstream parties delegitimising themselves.
    It would require defections from the Cameroon wing of the Tory Party and the Blairite wing of Labour to form such a party and they are not going to do so while Farron leads the LDs
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Mr. Glenn, indeed, but Farron's a lefty, and Corbyn's got the properly leftwing vote sewn up. By default, with Kippers on the right and Corbynistas on the left, the Conservatives appear centrist with bloody huge room to manoeuvre.

    I'm unconvinced Farron's EU-philia will play well.

    To be successful, UKIP need to fully embrace populism and concentrate on Labour heartlands. But that would mean that only the Tories are a truly national (OK, England and Wales) party: UKIP would be a party of the North and some Midlands, LDs essentially a party of the South and some leafy city districts, with Labour essentially an inner city party.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited September 2016
    I cannot see Liz Truss lasting long in her role of Justice Secretary. She thoroughly embarrassed herself at the Justice Committee. Truss comes across as quite dim.

    Tory leadership material my arse. A few on here tipped her for leader...
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Second possible route to realignment: Tories marginalise Labour and become dominant; the Tory centre-right and hard-right fight for control; Tory hard-right splits off and merges with Ukip; centre-right and hard-right become the two biggest parties. Rump Labour continues as third force, representing socialist and left-liberal minorities.

    I still don't believe that there are enough target seats available for Ukip as is to challenge Labour for second place. They need to peel off a large chunk from the right of the Tories, as well as traditional WWC votes up North. A realignment will probably be necessary to accomplish this.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
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    Mr. Glenn, indeed, but Farron's a lefty, and Corbyn's got the properly leftwing vote sewn up. By default, with Kippers on the right and Corbynistas on the left, the Conservatives appear centrist with bloody huge room to manoeuvre.

    I'm unconvinced Farron's EU-philia will play well.

    Exactly. If Lib Dems are to have much of a future, it lies in trying to peel wet votes back off the left flank of the Tories. Hard work in any case, but far more so with left-leaning activists and a left-leaning leader.

    You can't just magic into existence an alternative Lib Dem party which makes a soft centre-right pitch and can, therefore, state categorically that it won't prop up any left-wing Government AND make that promise believable to its target voters.

    The Tories are the closest party to the centre of public opinion; moreover, May hardly has to worry about the Yellow/Wet Tory vote, which might be somewhat nervous of a less liberal and more traditionalist approach, because they have nowhere else to go. This renders the electoral position of the Conservative Party formidable.
    Well that's one view.
    Another is that the Tories have to deliver Brexit, now does that mean a hard or soft version. Expect ructions either way, the honeymoon looks to be short lived.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    MP_SE said:

    I cannot see Liz Truss lasting long in her role of Justice Secretary. She thoroughly embarrassed herself at the Justice Committee. Truss comes across as quite dim.

    Tory leadership material my arse. A few on here tipped her for leader...

    every time I read the name I can't help but remember that awful speech... cringeworthy.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Try making a small batch and see if you need more or less sugar?
    Trouble is, you need to wait months to see what it's like. I'm working on the premise of starting with less then you can always add more.
    My inclination would be to add only a minimal amount. The fruit has a lot of sugar, at least sufficient to get a good fermentation. And if your gin ends up too dry, you can always add sugar at a later date. For example, we make sloe gin using store bought gin and adding the sloes and syrup to it, letting them rest sufficiently to blend.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Ishmael_X said:

    Oops, missed new thread.....

    Off topic, my damson trees are absolutely laden this year and I'm making damson gin. Yay! It's really hard to judge how much sugar to put in as I don't like it too syrupy. Any thoughts?

    Very good question, lots of people make it too sweet. I use half the weight of fruit - 450g sloes, 225g sugar and 1 litre gin. Try undershooting this - say 200g sugar - and increasing after a month if its too tart.

    I deep freeze sloes for 24 hours if they haven't had a frost on them. This may just be superstition.
    Thanks. That sounds about right to me. I haven't measured it out but used about a quarter of a bag of sugar on the first litre..
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    Well, the polls weren't asking who you'd vote for at the local elections, were they ;)
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Second possible route to realignment: Tories marginalise Labour and become dominant; the Tory centre-right and hard-right fight for control; Tory hard-right splits off and merges with Ukip; centre-right and hard-right become the two biggest parties. Rump Labour continues as third force, representing socialist and left-liberal minorities.

    I still don't believe that there are enough target seats available for Ukip as is to challenge Labour for second place. They need to peel off a large chunk from the right of the Tories, as well as traditional WWC votes up North. A realignment will probably be necessary to accomplish this.
    The only way for any of that to make electoral sense is for the parties to adopt PR before they split. Now is that likely?
  • Options

    You can't just magic into existence an alternative Lib Dem party which makes a soft centre-right pitch and can, therefore, state categorically that it won't prop up any left-wing Government AND make that promise believable to its target voters.

    You can if Labour splits definitively.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    RobD said:

    MP_SE said:

    I cannot see Liz Truss lasting long in her role of Justice Secretary. She thoroughly embarrassed herself at the Justice Committee. Truss comes across as quite dim.

    Tory leadership material my arse. A few on here tipped her for leader...

    every time I read the name I can't help but remember that awful speech... cringeworthy.
    50% of people are useless but they are spread throughout jobs. 50% of CEOs, MPs as much as street cleaners and burger flippers. I agree on Truss. Effing idiot.
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    RobD said:

    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    Well, the polls weren't asking who you'd vote for at the local elections, were they ;)
    True, but local elections are a guide to how the parties are perceived and the results reflect this.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited September 2016
    Earlier I posted a graph of how the Betfair exchange's implied probability of a Trump presidency rose fast following the New York bomb explosion.

    Trump tried almost immediately to capitalise on the event.

    Shocks favour Trump, just as they favoured Brexit.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    Mori has been producing interesting results for a long time. IIRC they had the Tories on 52% at one point in around 2008.
    Mean of last fourteen GB voting intention polls (i.e. stretching back to the start of August): Con 40.0%, Lab 29.7%, Ukip 12.1%, LD 7.9%, Green 4.0%, Other (incl SNP/Plaid) 6.3%

    Mori's 34% for Lab is well outside the mean trend.

    Essentially, the average VI figures show Con up and Lab down relative to the 2015 GE splits (when we ought to be seeing the exact reverse in any normal Parliament: remember, Ed Miliband enjoyed substantial leads for almost the whole of the last one.) Other parties effectively unchanged. Looking back before that, the Tories have been ahead, and usually by a substantial margin, ever since the election (save for the period in the immediate run up to the EU ref, and even then that was at least as much owing to Ukip spiking as it was to any significant improvement to Labour's position.) In all, quite extraordinary.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    RobD said:

    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    Well, the polls weren't asking who you'd vote for at the local elections, were they ;)
    No, but there's usually some consistency between opinion polls and local elections, with the exception that the Lib Dems usually perform better in locals than in the polls.

    Throughout the 2010-15 parliament, Labour did WORSE in local elections than opinion polls indicated every single time. Even in 2012, when they did quite well in the locals, the 6% lead they got there was significantly below the double-digit leads they were getting in the opinion polls at the time. That was a sign that the polling was overstating Labour. By contrast, 2016 saw the first time in ages that Labour did better in elections than the polls were indicating, suggesting the adjustments that pollsters made after 2015 have swung things too far the other way.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
    I agree. UKIP on the right for WWC. Tories on the right for cities and middle classes, Left split Lab and Lib. Tories win.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091



    Essentially, the average VI figures show Con up and Lab down relative to the 2015 GE splits (when we ought to be seeing the exact reverse in any normal Parliament: remember, Ed Miliband enjoyed substantial leads for almost the whole of the last one.)

    A honeymoon after a new PM has just been put in is quite obviously not a "normal parliament", though.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    If what you report of Kinnock is accurate, then I would not be surprised. IMHO it is quite possible that there will never be another Labour Government. Evidence suggests that the majority in the country are right or right-leaning: fast forward ten or fifteen years and the two main parties at Westminster may be a centre-right Government and a right-wing Opposition.

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.

    If Ukip are going to make any meaningful progress then it is going to be against a weakened and very left-wing Labour Party. If anything, I imagine that May would be thrilled by such a prospect. Labour will be fighting the next election on several fronts at the same time, and if Ukip can do any damage to Labour in Northern heartland areas (i.e. largely in seats where the Tories are completely uncompetitive) then it will only weaken the principal opposition party, and leave the Parliamentary opposition as a whole even more fragmented than it is already. This can only be good news for the Conservatives.
    So, having read your (generally excellent) commentary over the last few weeks.

    - The LibDems are facing complete extinction
    - The Labour Party will top out at 25% in 2020
    - UKIP won't pose a threat to anyone except (possibly) a few Northern Labourites

    So, Tories 450 seats nailed on in 2020?
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Washington Examiner
    Priebus: RNC could block Kasich and Bush from running again if they don't back Trump https://t.co/nK2TzsePAF https://t.co/RVcf5ylppK

    "I think people need to get outside this Beltway and get on the road," Priebus said in an interview with CBS host John Dickerson. "This is probably one of the biggest movements as far as people across this country in modern history.

    "Where we're at with the voters, one of the last polls I saw ... Republicans, I think it was about 91, 92 percent, we need to do a couple of percentage points better than we're doing as we move forward. Look, people who agreed to support the nominee, who took part in our process, they used tools from the RNC. They agreed to support the nominee. They took part in our process," Priebus said.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Dixie said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
    I agree. UKIP on the right for WWC. Tories on the right for cities and middle classes, Left split Lab and Lib. Tories win.
    I know that the right is in a state of rapture about how UKIP has captured the WWC but I haven't really seen a great deal of evidence that these voters support laissez faire economics. Once they get past pavlovian responses to symbols like flags and coins they will expect actual policies that work to their benefit, like a properly funded NHS and trains with enough seats and that run on time.
  • Options
    Dixie said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
    I agree. UKIP on the right for WWC. Tories on the right for cities and middle classes, Left split Lab and Lib. Tories win.
    UKIP are finished, they are surplus to requirements, they just don't realise it yet.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukip-defect-television-tories_uk_57da8c46e4b0d584f7f0105e
    http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/16/ukipper-defects-to-tories-says-party-is-a-catastrophic-mess-6131387/
    "Ms Phillips told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: ‘There are far too many schisms and divisions which I think at this point are irreparable. There are so many factions in Ukip it becomes a Venn diagram, almost, where my enemy’s enemy is my friend.
    ‘Part of Nigel stepping down was because a lot of things had ground to a halt."

    "Outgoing deputy leader and Ukip MEP Paul Nuttall also admitted that party members may find a ‘new home’ with the Conservatives."

  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    You can't just magic into existence an alternative Lib Dem party which makes a soft centre-right pitch and can, therefore, state categorically that it won't prop up any left-wing Government AND make that promise believable to its target voters.

    You can if Labour splits definitively.
    If Labour were to split then there would be no good reason for the Lib Dems, as currently positioned, to merge themselves straight into the moderate half. That would leave a hard-left party, a soft-left party, the Greens, and Ukip - which depends for much of its strength on WWC votes stolen from Labour - all, effectlvely, fighting each other on the Left.

    A more evenly divided Left vote will simply make it easier for the Tories to come through the middle and poach a whole raft of what are presently Con/Lab marginals. They would be thrilled.

    The Right is more or less united under the Tories, with Ukip only creaming off a minority of hard-Right nationalist votes. They could win a thumping majority even if all they did was hold on to the 37% of the vote that backed Cameron whom, in this scenario, would still have nowhere else to go: SDP Mark 2 would still be centre-left, and could not possibly get close to power without a toxic pact with both the Corbyn Left party and the SNP. Moreover, the fact that the majority of the electorate are, to some degree, right-leaning means that the Tories have the opportunity to do a lot better than that.

    Absent any kind of wet soft centre-right challenger, the only way that the Tories can possibly avoid winning the next election at a canter is by trying to undo the Brexit decision, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they have even contemplated such a foolhardy thing.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Robert Kimbell
    The AfD is set to enter its 10th German state parliament today (there are 16 federal states) by winning over 11% in the city-state of Berlin
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    PlatoSaid said:

    Washington Examiner
    Priebus: RNC could block Kasich and Bush from running again if they don't back Trump https://t.co/nK2TzsePAF https://t.co/RVcf5ylppK

    "I think people need to get outside this Beltway and get on the road," Priebus said in an interview with CBS host John Dickerson. "This is probably one of the biggest movements as far as people across this country in modern history.

    "Where we're at with the voters, one of the last polls I saw ... Republicans, I think it was about 91, 92 percent, we need to do a couple of percentage points better than we're doing as we move forward. Look, people who agreed to support the nominee, who took part in our process, they used tools from the RNC. They agreed to support the nominee. They took part in our process," Priebus said.

    ha ha ha. Kaisch and Bush would rather never run again than soil themselves to associate with Trump
  • Options
    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.
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    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    There was polling on the local elections?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    The BBC had it at 31% and of course even Rallings and Thrasher's figures do not include the Scottish Parliament results which were abysmal for Labour and saw them fall to about 21% and come even below the Tories
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Amazing Maps
    The best selling artist from each London borough https://t.co/PeB8PQ1AWA

    Great trivia, even if complete cobblers
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    RobD said:

    Danny565 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    .. and Mori put Labour on 34%.. ludicrous.

    and (for all we know) the polls still being bent against Con and in favour of Lab
    On the basis of this year's local elections, opinion polls now UNDERstate Labour.
    Labour got 31% in the local elections this year, Mori had them on 34% (even though that is much higher than other pollsters)
    Per Rallings & Thrasher, Labour got 33% in the local elections, and a 1% lead over the Tories. That is better than the polling at the time, all of which bar YouGov were showing solid Tory leads.
    Well, the polls weren't asking who you'd vote for at the local elections, were they ;)
    Yes, but what we can't be sure of is whether the polls are over-correcting, under-correcting or getting exactly righ tthe adjustment for turnout after the 2015 outcome. The limited evidence to date suggests they are over-correcting a bit - Labour is tending to do a bit better at both by-elecitons and local elections than polling predicts. A possible reason is that younger people are getting a little more likely to vote - and indeed, post-referendum, to be registered in the first place - and the poll adjustments are assuming they're as rubbish at it as they were last year.

    I wouldn't put much emphasis on any of this - we're talking of a few % either way - but it's wotth keeping in mind.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.

    Even if none of those bad things happens, it's quite possible that we'll have a recession before 2020, simply because of the economic cycle.

    It seems unlikely that wouldn't affect some voters minds.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.

    Under all normal circumstances I would probably agree with you. However: Corbyn.

    Almost nobody who looked at Cameron and Miliband in 2015 and chose Cameron is going to look at May and Corbyn in 2020 and choose Corbyn. The Tories only need to hold what they have to win (and, under the new boundaries, win comfortably.)

    The Left has grown too radical for most voters' tastes, and it also cannot realistically get close to a Parliamentary majority without a pact with the SNP, which will bring a great many English voters out in a rash. Even if the economy gets substantially worse over the next few years, I simply don't see any likely scenario under which the Tories could lose the next election.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    PlatoSaid said:

    Amazing Maps
    The best selling artist from each London borough https://t.co/PeB8PQ1AWA

    Great trivia, even if complete cobblers

    You'd have thought at least one artist would be top in multiple boroughs.. from the looks of it they are all different.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Amazing Maps
    The best selling artist from each London borough https://t.co/PeB8PQ1AWA

    Great trivia, even if complete cobblers

    You'd have thought at least one artist would be top in multiple boroughs.. from the looks of it they are all different.
    I think it's borough of origin of the artists.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dixie said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
    I agree. UKIP on the right for WWC. Tories on the right for cities and middle classes, Left split Lab and Lib. Tories win.
    I know that the right is in a state of rapture about how UKIP has captured the WWC but I haven't really seen a great deal of evidence that these voters support laissez faire economics. Once they get past pavlovian responses to symbols like flags and coins they will expect actual policies that work to their benefit, like a properly funded NHS and trains with enough seats and that run on time.
    I think that the kippers have got as far as they can with the WWC vote.

    They might have got a bit further with Phil Broughton, but James is too much the right wing southern Tory. Like Theresa May, but with better social skills and dress sense.

    Even in the Euro elections in 2014 under optimal conditions the WWC Labour vote held up well. What do they offer now for that diminishing demographic?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    And there was me thinking she might be not quite completely out to lunch.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Except the LDs in the UK and the FDP in Germany both polled under 10% at their last general elections on an orange-book liberal agenda
    The prerequisite would be the two mainstream parties delegitimising themselves.
    It would require defections from the Cameroon wing of the Tory Party and the Blairite wing of Labour to form such a party and they are not going to do so while Farron leads the LDs
    If Laws had not been Portilloed it might have been a different story.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Amazing Maps
    The best selling artist from each London borough https://t.co/PeB8PQ1AWA

    Great trivia, even if complete cobblers

    You'd have thought at least one artist would be top in multiple boroughs.. from the looks of it they are all different.
    I think it's borough of origin of the artists.
    Thanks (early still here).. 'from' not 'in'!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    Perhaps a James led government would ferment and finance ethnic British seccessionist movements in Canada, Australia and South Africa, then invade in their support.

    The PB League of Empire Loyalists would be in rapture.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    But Blair is a tory.

    So he doesn't count

    Purity before victory comrades.

    Or direct action if you prefer......
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Amazing Maps
    The best selling artist from each London borough https://t.co/PeB8PQ1AWA

    Great trivia, even if complete cobblers

    You'd have thought at least one artist would be top in multiple boroughs.. from the looks of it they are all different.
    I think it's borough of origin of the artists.
    Thanks (early still here).. 'from' not 'in'!
    That is the plan, but some dubious items. Queen = Freddie Mercury, b. Stone Town, Zanzibar.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,470
    edited September 2016

    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.

    Under all normal circumstances I would probably agree with you. However: Corbyn.

    Almost nobody who looked at Cameron and Miliband in 2015 and chose Cameron is going to look at May and Corbyn in 2020 and choose Corbyn. The Tories only need to hold what they have to win (and, under the new boundaries, win comfortably.)

    The Left has grown too radical for most voters' tastes, and it also cannot realistically get close to a Parliamentary majority without a pact with the SNP, which will bring a great many English voters out in a rash. Even if the economy gets substantially worse over the next few years, I simply don't see any likely scenario under which the Tories could lose the next election.
    One thing we should all bear in mind is that politics is probably more volatile, and people less permanently aligned, than at any time prior. Consequently if the unexpected happens, things could change more rapidly than feels likely right now.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,978
    rcs1000 said:

    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.

    Even if none of those bad things happens, it's quite possible that we'll have a recession before 2020, simply because of the economic cycle.

    It seems unlikely that wouldn't affect some voters minds.
    But they won't see Corbyn as the answer.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    Perhaps a James led government would ferment and finance ethnic British seccessionist movements in Canada, Australia and South Africa, then invade in their support.

    The PB League of Empire Loyalists would be in rapture.
    Why would they need to do that. Three of them already are clone UKs in ethnic political and cultural terms and the fourth has the most anglophile government since Jan Smuts was defeated by the National Party in 1948.

    EU shows us that centralised structure is a disaster.

    A cellular alliance of anglosphere sister sovereign states is the way forward.

    After a few years of Trump the US congress might even come to their senses and agree a return to legality with Her Majesty.....
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    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    All this stuff about the Tories being dominant presupposes we do not have a re-run of the 2008 Crash.

    The world economy is weak. Interest rates are at all time lows. The EU is screwing up its weaker economies.
    China has a HUGE debt mountain http://tinyurl.com/heg6jz9 and it is growing...

    All Labour need is another crash, blame the Tories and a "jam today" policy makes complete sense to disaffected voters..

    Don't count unhatched chickens.

    Even if none of those bad things happens, it's quite possible that we'll have a recession before 2020, simply because of the economic cycle.

    It seems unlikely that wouldn't affect some voters minds.
    But they won't see Corbyn as the answer.

    SO far I am unimpressed with Mrs May. I may of course be completely wrong but a micromanager is likely to make some big economic and political mistakes. See Gordon Brown.


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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    Perhaps a James led government would ferment and finance ethnic British seccessionist movements in Canada, Australia and South Africa, then invade in their support.

    The PB League of Empire Loyalists would be in rapture.
    Why would they need to do that. Three of them already are clone UKs in ethnic political and cultural terms and the fourth has the most anglophile government since Jan Smuts was defeated by the National Party in 1948.
    To keep them in line. Putin likes neighbours that are afraid of him.

    The Old Commonwealth is neither as ethnically British nor as Anglophile as it once was...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    Dixie said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    I so wish the libs would do this, we would then have an electable opposition that half the PLP could join
    I agree. UKIP on the right for WWC. Tories on the right for cities and middle classes, Left split Lab and Lib. Tories win.
    I know that the right is in a state of rapture about how UKIP has captured the WWC but I haven't really seen a great deal of evidence that these voters support laissez faire economics. Once they get past pavlovian responses to symbols like flags and coins they will expect actual policies that work to their benefit, like a properly funded NHS and trains with enough seats and that run on time.
    I think that the kippers have got as far as they can with the WWC vote.

    They might have got a bit further with Phil Broughton, but James is too much the right wing southern Tory. Like Theresa May, but with better social skills and dress sense.

    Even in the Euro elections in 2014 under optimal conditions the WWC Labour vote held up well. What do they offer now for that diminishing demographic?
    Diane James is telegenic and presentable and given about 30% of Labour voters voted Leave she is perfectly poised to appeal to that demographic with a hardline immigration policy to compare to Corbyn's 'open borders' one. She might of course appeal to some hard Brexit backing Tories too
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No surprise Kinnock said this morning he did not expect to see another Labour government in his lifetime. May is clearly more worried about UKIP and Diane James than Labour, which next Satuday will confirm is riven by in-fighting and in the grip of the Corbynite hard left

    I disagree, however, re: James and Ukip. Providing that May delivers Brexit, I would expect almost no Tory MPs to be at risk from the purples.
    The doom scenario for the Tories would be UKIP sweeping the Labour heartlands, forcing the Tories to fight on a UKIP agenda, while a revived liberal, orange-book/FDP style Lib Dems outflanked them on the respectable right.
    Except the LDs in the UK and the FDP in Germany both polled under 10% at their last general elections on an orange-book liberal agenda
    The prerequisite would be the two mainstream parties delegitimising themselves.
    It would require defections from the Cameroon wing of the Tory Party and the Blairite wing of Labour to form such a party and they are not going to do so while Farron leads the LDs
    If Laws had not been Portilloed it might have been a different story.
    Maybe but the Cleggite wing is now defeated
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    Mr. X, blasphemy! Freddie Mercury is clearly as British as British can be. Praise be to Zoroaster!

    [As an aside, lots of early Queen stuff has some rather nice fantasy imagery/language. A favourite of mine [tatterdemalion] I learnt from Fairy Feller's Master Stroke].
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    edited September 2016

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    Perhaps a James led government would ferment and finance ethnic British seccessionist movements in Canada, Australia and South Africa, then invade in their support.

    The PB League of Empire Loyalists would be in rapture.
    Why would they need to do that. Three of them already are clone UKs in ethnic political and cultural terms and the fourth has the most anglophile government since Jan Smuts was defeated by the National Party in 1948.
    To keep them in line. Putin likes neighbours that are afraid of him.

    The Old Commonwealth is neither as ethnically British nor as Anglophile as it once was...
    A majority of Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders are still of British origin (albeit Canada has Quebec which is more Francophile than Anglophile)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    The Trump-Putin axis gains another adherent:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero

    It'd be ironical if the Cold War was finally ended by lots of nationalists agreeing that their rival patriotisms were a reason to cuddle up.

    Perhaps a James led government would ferment and finance ethnic British seccessionist movements in Canada, Australia and South Africa, then invade in their support.

    The PB League of Empire Loyalists would be in rapture.
    Why would they need to do that. Three of them already are clone UKs in ethnic political and cultural terms and the fourth has the most anglophile government since Jan Smuts was defeated by the National Party in 1948.

    EU shows us that centralised structure is a disaster.

    A cellular alliance of anglosphere sister sovereign states is the way forward.

    After a few years of Trump the US congress might even come to their senses and agree a return to legality with Her Majesty.....
    Less likely in the US, a plurality of Americans are of German origin (although British and Irish combined are more) and Hispanics are a rising percentage of the US population too. Plus it was independent from the UK 150 years before the other 3
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Mr. X, blasphemy! Freddie Mercury is clearly as British as British can be. Praise be to Zoroaster!

    [As an aside, lots of early Queen stuff has some rather nice fantasy imagery/language. A favourite of mine [tatterdemalion] I learnt from Fairy Feller's Master Stroke].

    Praise be, a brand new birther controversy! (Stone Town it was, though. I have been there.)
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