Ireland is constrained by the EU - Ireland has agreements with the EU. Apple has agreements with Ireland. The EU wishes to be an adult rushing in and saying that no matter what the silly children did its time for the adults.
Ireland is being dismissed as an irrelevance.
Perhaps there's another way of looking at this, but if I was Irish I think I'd be pretty upset.
This story might explain Brexit to the Americans better than everything else, they seem to be surprised that the EU has such powers.
NAFTA has very similar provisions regarding state aid. If a US company feels that it has been diasadvantaged by aid given by the Quebe government to a Canadian (or Swiss or whoever) company, it can bring a case, and an unlimited fine for illegal state aid can be levied by the ISDS tribunal.
How can the EU fine Apple? I can understand fining Ireland, but Apple just made an agreement and paid their taxes.
The EU is basically saying that Ireland isn't allowed outside the play-pen.
I've no idea how we as the UK will fare in the the next few years, but there will be one big plus in leaving the actual institution of the EU behind.
Because Apple trades within the EU and is subject to EU laws including bans on State Aid that were agreed and ratified by all nation states.
Not to say that this decision was right or wrong, or whether it was made for the right or wrong reasons. But on the question of can the EU fine Apple the answer is an unequivocal yes.
Apple didn't make that agreement, Ireland did.
The EU is just bullying for 13bn of protection money. It simply isn't a legitimate claim in my view. An agreement was made, and no matter how faulty that agreement was assuming that the people who made it were legitimately empowered to do such a thing it must stand.
Apple, and all the rest of the big corporations should pay their fair share of tax, but the rule of law (and a reasonable law) is more important.
Isn't this precisely what the commission is questioning?
Well if they weren't then there should be criminal proceedings against those people.
Apple negotiated an agreement in good faith with what they believed were the legally empowered representatives of Ireland. These agreements pre-date the financial crisis, but even if they didn't then I'm not sure that the Irish people were told that their representatives were mere tokens in their roles.
How can the EU fine Apple? I can understand fining Ireland, but Apple just made an agreement and paid their taxes.
The EU is basically saying that Ireland isn't allowed outside the play-pen.
I've no idea how we as the UK will fare in the the next few years, but there will be one big plus in leaving the actual institution of the EU behind.
Hasn't that been the case pretty much since their economy collapsed? I don't know whether the 'observers' are still in situ or not but officially and unofficially the EU still holds about 75% of Ireland's debts on the ECB balance sheets.
Ireland is constrained by the EU - Ireland has agreements with the EU. Apple has agreements with Ireland. The EU wishes to be an adult rushing in and saying that no matter what the silly children did its time for the adults.
Ireland is being dismissed as an irrelevance.
Perhaps there's another way of looking at this, but if I was Irish I think I'd be pretty upset.
The only really outrageous thing is that Ireland get to keep the money.
That they're going to court to try and stop Apple paying them. It's surreal in many ways - though I can see why the Irish Govt has an eye on the whole corporate economic model it has set up coming under pressure.
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince my school friends that Apple computers were better than Windows computers. They completely ignored me, especially when Apple almost went bankrupt in 1996.
The amusing bit - of course - is that these state aid rules were instigated at the behest of the UK government to discourage the French from subsidising their industries to compete with British firms.
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince my school friends that Apple computers were better than Windows computers. They completely ignored me, especially when Apple almost went bankrupt in 1996.
If it was in the pre-OS X era, then they were right!
How can the EU fine Apple? I can understand fining Ireland, but Apple just made an agreement and paid their taxes.
The EU is basically saying that Ireland isn't allowed outside the play-pen.
I've no idea how we as the UK will fare in the the next few years, but there will be one big plus in leaving the actual institution of the EU behind.
Because Apple trades within the EU and is subject to EU laws including bans on State Aid that were agreed and ratified by all nation states.
Not to say that this decision was right or wrong, or whether it was made for the right or wrong reasons. But on the question of can the EU fine Apple the answer is an unequivocal yes.
Apple didn't make that agreement, Ireland did.
The EU is just bullying for 13bn of protection money. It simply isn't a legitimate claim in my view. An agreement was made, and no matter how faulty that agreement was assuming that the people who made it were legitimately empowered to do such a thing it must stand.
Apple, and all the rest of the big corporations should pay their fair share of tax, but the rule of law (and a reasonable law) is more important.
Isn't this precisely what the commission is questioning?
Well if they weren't then there should be criminal proceedings against those people.
Apple negotiated an agreement in good faith with what they believed were the legally empowered representatives of Ireland. These agreements pre-date the financial crisis, but even if they didn't then I'm not sure that the Irish people were told that their representatives were mere tokens in their roles.
Apple has enough resources that ignorance and naivety can never be used in their defence. They procured a deal with the EU government willing to give them the best terms to trade within the customs union. Ireland appears to have gone beyond what was legally allowed and this cannot have been unknown to Apple.
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince my school friends that Apple computers were better than Windows computers. They completely ignored me, especially when Apple almost went bankrupt in 1996.
If it was in the pre-OS X era, then they were right!
I was very closely involved with Apple in those days. I have some stories to tell...
Don't understand the attraction of macs. My current laptop is more powerful than any mac on the market, has 4k screen, is very thin and light and cost way less.
How can the EU fine Apple? I can understand fining Ireland, but Apple just made an agreement and paid their taxes.
The EU is basically saying that Ireland isn't allowed outside the play-pen.
I've no idea how we as the UK will fare in the the next few years, but there will be one big plus in leaving the actual institution of the EU behind.
Hasn't that been the case pretty much since their economy collapsed? I don't know whether the 'observers' are still in situ or not but officially and unofficially the EU still holds about 75% of Ireland's debts on the ECB balance sheets.
That's not true any more.
Ireland's government debt-to-GDP has collapsed from 124% in 2013 to about 90% today. As the banks are privatised and the assets of NAMA are sold off, that should drop to around 60%. Add in a little bit of economic growth between now and 2020, and it'll be back below 50%.
Quite an extraordinary round trip.
I was thinking of the banks. Do they still have loans of €160 billion to those?
NAFTA has very similar provisions regarding state aid. If a US company feels that it has been diasadvantaged by aid given by the Quebe government to a Canadian (or Swiss or whoever) company, it can bring a case, and an unlimited fine for illegal state aid can be levied by the ISDS tribunal.
I wasn't suggesting that this was EU specific, I'm certain that the average American knows barely any more about NAFTA than they do about the EU. But I've noted the surprise that has been expressed, that the EU can "interfere" with Ireland's taxation is apparently news to many of our friends.
How can the EU fine Apple? I can understand fining Ireland, but Apple just made an agreement and paid their taxes.
The EU is basically saying that Ireland isn't allowed outside the play-pen.
I've no idea how we as the UK will fare in the the next few years, but there will be one big plus in leaving the actual institution of the EU behind.
Because Apple trades within the EU and is subject to EU laws including bans on State Aid that were agreed and ratified by all nation states.
Not to say that this decision was right or wrong, or whether it was made for the right or wrong reasons. But on the question of can the EU fine Apple the answer is an unequivocal yes.
Apple didn't make that agreement, Ireland did.
The EU is just bullying for 13bn of protection money. It simply isn't a legitimate claim in my view. An agreement was made, and no matter how faulty that agreement was assuming that the people who made it were legitimately empowered to do such a thing it must stand.
Apple, and all the rest of the big corporations should pay their fair share of tax, but the rule of law (and a reasonable law) is more important.
Isn't this precisely what the commission is questioning?
Well if they weren't then there should be criminal proceedings against those people.
Apple negotiated an agreement in good faith with what they believed were the legally empowered representatives of Ireland. These agreements pre-date the financial crisis, but even if they didn't then I'm not sure that the Irish people were told that their representatives were mere tokens in their roles.
Apple has enough resources that ignorance and naivety can never be used in their defence. They procured a deal with the EU government willing to give them the best terms to trade within the customs union. Ireland appears to have gone beyond what was legally allowed and this cannot have been unknown to Apple.
That sounds reasonable. Nonetheless someone in the Irish government must in that case have broken the law. Where are the charges?
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince my school friends that Apple computers were better than Windows computers. They completely ignored me, especially when Apple almost went bankrupt in 1996.
If it was in the pre-OS X era, then they were right!
I was very closely involved with Apple in those days. I have some stories to tell...
I spent most of the 1990s trying to convince my school friends that Apple computers were better than Windows computers. They completely ignored me, especially when Apple almost went bankrupt in 1996.
If it was in the pre-OS X era, then they were right!
I was very closely involved with Apple in those days. I have some stories to tell...
Richard Barbrook - the "class wargaming" "situationist" who helps the Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn to the max.
That said, is there any reason to think he actually knew there was anything about paedophilia in that book in 1998? And what does the book say about paedophilia anyway? Business Insider says "(its) title roughly translates as 'Let the little children - Paedophilia: a pretext for a witch-hunt.'" That doesn't make it pro. But for all I know, it may be.
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Apple negotiated an agreement in good faith with what they believed were the legally empowered representatives of Ireland. These agreements pre-date the financial crisis, but even if they didn't then I'm not sure that the Irish people were told that their representatives were mere tokens in their roles.
@elliotttimes: Corbyn emboldened to purge critics with 48 per cent backing reselection for all sitting MPs 2/3
@elliotttimes: Most eligible to vote in leadership- 53 per cent - back him on scrapping Trident. 3/3
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That said, is there any reason to think he actually knew there was anything about paedophilia in that book in 1998? And what does the book say about paedophilia anyway? Business Insider says "(its) title roughly translates as 'Let the little children - Paedophilia: a pretext for a witch-hunt.'" That doesn't make it pro. But for all I know, it may be.