I can't abide concurrent sentencing - whilst the US version of 856yrs in jail is just silly - we have the opposite problem. If your actions result in the death of 6 of your own kids because you were cynically attempting to manipulate the system by starting a fire - well you don't deserve another life bar one in prison.
I've never met anyone who supports concurrent sentencing.
Pleasure to meet you, I'm someone who supports concurrent sentencing in a lot of circumstances.
Perhaps for fraud, certain motoring offences, habitual shoplifters, some public order offences. Certainly not here though.
Tim, since you are so obsessed with Camerons apparent inability to woo the female vote, may I suggest that we on the right pay attention and start demanding policies to even things up a bit?
My first idea, (and worth a few percent at least), would be instant castration of violent rapists and flogging for wife beaters. Fits my political agenda as well. Simple fast way to sweep back into power for the Tories. It's the kind of idea you are suggesting we take up....or?
"First day in the job and already the Tories are complaining to Lord Hall. Media Guido has a letter sent by Tory MP Dominic Raab complaining about the “market trader” David Bennett who was used by the Today Programme to put that question to IDS. "
How do the govts reforms impact on the "family" in this case? From what I can see both women were working, Osborne will continue to pay child benefit for an infinite number of children, housing benefit is going up and not down.
Unless I'm missing something they wouldn't have been impacted by anything the govt is doing would they?
Their CB would be limited to a 1% rise this year - so a real terms cut.
Don't know enough about the benefit cap to comment - would they get more than £26k ?
They were getting £60 000, but may have counted as two families. Not sure how it works to apply the family test to the Phillpotts. This would be without tax, perhaps equivalent to £90 000 income before tax.
I once knew someone who worked in the DWP trying to improve the formula for benefits. They said it was indeed nightmarishly complex. Often you'd have cases of a mother with kids by several fathers. And those fathers could often have kids by other mothers. Then you have the employment status and marriage status too. It was extremely hard to make it fair: should a father be able reduce the child benefit paid to his previous family by having more kids with a new woman? If no, does that mean his second family only get the scraps left over from the first? What happens when he moves onto the third?
He did however have one great story about a woman that was answering questions when they were assessing her benefits eligibility. When asked who the father was to one of her children, she didn't know. The questioner asked how it was she didn't know, was it that there were several men around the time she conceived and she wasn't sure when it happened? "Oh, I know when it happened - it was one time in the McDonald's toilets. It's just that he never took off his motorcycle helmet..."
Some Labour names that could be interested in South Shields:
- Iain Malcolm as we have all understood. - his brother Cllr Ed. He's allegedly not a particular shining star. Ahead of a past selection, there were rumours he was undertaking public speaking training. - Tina Roche. She has confirmed she will apply. Previously shortlisted for Redcar, she is assistant branch secretary of Unison South Tyneside. - Sherie Murphy. Previously shortlisted in Redcar too, she represents Boldon Colliery ward on South Tyneside Council. - Emma Lewell-Buck. Recently shortlisted for Carlisle, she's another South Tyneside Cllr (her ward is in Jarrow constituency. - Can the runner up in Middlesbrough selection (Progress backed and pushed by David Miliband at the time) be interested in South Shields? He's from Teesside rather than Tyneside. - Lewis Atkinson. He run for the NEC in 2012 outside of the official slates. In the past he stood for local elections in both Sunderland and South Tyneside. He's from Gateshead CLP.
And obviously a couple of SpAds, a Cllr Hussain and some Islington Cllrs.
I can't abide concurrent sentencing - whilst the US version of 856yrs in jail is just silly - we have the opposite problem. If your actions result in the death of 6 of your own kids because you were cynically attempting to manipulate the system by starting a fire - well you don't deserve another life bar one in prison.
I've never met anyone who supports concurrent sentencing.
Pleasure to meet you, I'm someone who supports concurrent sentencing in a lot of circumstances.
I'd love to know the circumstances in which Philpott grew up. Probably even worse that those in which his poor kids found themselves.
What? Do you feel sorry for him? Is that an excuse? Crawl back under your rock from whence you came.
No just making a point - if the guy was black from the arse end of London many of the sentiments on here would be reversed and he would still be an evil barsteward/victim (depending on your view of humanity).
@Pulpstar - what about 'perverting the course of justice' and 'speeding'?
Chris Huhne should probably have the three points stuck on his license now as he avoided them back when. I'd be happy for them to start expiring at the date of his sentence for perverting the course of justice, he probably won't have them though !
Most popular (by quite a margin) comment on the Daily Mail article :
All these people with their faux indignation because the article says he is on benefits make me laugh. Do you really believe this (I can't call him a man) would have had this many children if he had to go out and work to provide for them?
Excellent front-page from that Mail rag. It demonstrates why we need a free press.
The paper is only reflecting what a large section of the population think. No doubt many polis would like to express the same; they can't for obvious reasons.
Nice to see our resident, intellectually-challenged, lefties get into such a lather over this: They know not the difference between right and wrong. Maybe Smukesh should return and analyse them: Are these signs of repressed feelings...?
Harry - Over 360,000 now. Certainly looks like the quiet man has turned up the volume. PR brilliance from a comedy govt. that keeps raising the bar on how not to do it.
Copied from Guido's comments, take the time to read it:
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100… If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this…
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1. The sixth would pay £3. The seventh would pay £7.. The eighth would pay £12. The ninth would pay £18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that’s what they decided to do..
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
“Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20″. Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers?
How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving). The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.
“I only got a pound out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,”but he got £10!”
“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a pound too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”
“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!”
“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D. Professor of Economics.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
OK a correction. The Daily Mail with 1.86m readers is at 16% the 2nd most popular newspaper for Lib Dem voters. The Sun (2.4m 18%) is the most popular. Both have gone for the welfare Philpott angle.
The Mail is the most popular non red top (quality) newspaper for LD voters. Must be why OGH quotes it? ....... he ducks.....
I've just done the BBC's social class quiz - I'm working class despite going to the theatre, knowing a CEO and owning my own house.
I'd love to see the methodology behind this. I'd call myself working class aspirational sort. The sort of voter who doesn't want to be blue-collar, but white collar. That's very much the attitude of my parents and grandparents.
How do the govts reforms impact on the "family" in this case? From what I can see both women were working, Osborne will continue to pay child benefit for an infinite number of children, housing benefit is going up and not down.
Unless I'm missing something they wouldn't have been impacted by anything the govt is doing would they?
Their CB would be limited to a 1% rise this year - so a real terms cut.
Don't know enough about the benefit cap to comment - would they get more than £26k ?
They were getting £60 000, but may have counted as two families. Not sure how it works to apply the family test to the Phillpotts. This would be without tax, perhaps equivalent to £90 000 income before tax.
I once knew someone who worked in the DWP trying to improve the formula for benefits. They said it was indeed nightmarishly complex. Often you'd have cases of a mother with kids by several fathers. And those fathers could often have kids by other mothers. Then you have the employment status and marriage status too. It was extremely hard to make it fair: should a father be able reduce the child benefit paid to his previous family by having more kids with a new woman? If no, does that mean his second family only get the scraps left over from the first? What happens when he moves onto the third?
He did however have one great story about a woman that was answering questions when they were assessing her benefits eligibility. When asked who the father was to one of her children, she didn't know. The questioner asked how it was she didn't know, was it that there were several men around the time she conceived and she wasn't sure when it happened? "Oh, I know when it happened - it was one time in the McDonald's toilets. It's just that he never took off his motorcycle helmet..."
(This is not an argument about whether Greece or Spain or Portugal or Cyprus would have been better off in or out of the Eurozone, or whether it would be better for them to simply default and leave now. It is solely about the question about whether money lenders are allowed to attach conditions to loans. I say 'yes they can', and that we have been complicit and supporters of such conditionality when it came from the IMF and was directed towards - say - Russia. Why is such conditionality now wrong when it is directed towards a Eurozone economy?)
The difference is that in the case of Russia, the central bank - something that should be a sovereign institution - isn't being used as blackmail against them.
OK a correction. The Daily Mail with 1.86m readers is at 16% the 2nd most popular newspaper for Lib Dem voters. The Sun (2.4m 18%) is the most popular. Both have gone for the welfare Philpott angle.
The Mail is the most popular non red top (quality) newspaper for LD voters. Must be why OGH quotes it? ....... he ducks.....
The Daily Mail a "quality newspaper"! It's a tabloid if ever there was one.
Should the ECB required to lend money to all Eurozone countries in all circumstances? Should the BoE be required to lend money to the government?
The ECB was setup from the start to make primary funding of government deficits illegal. If countries didn't like that condition, their democratically elected representatives were not required to vote for their country to join the Euro.
Harry - Over 360,000 now. Certainly looks like the quiet man has turned up the volume. PR brilliance from a comedy govt. that keeps raising the bar on how not to do it.
Given there are 6.4M union members in the Uk that suggests a social media campaign pick up rate of 0.5%.
This is the nub of the matter. Overall, there is estimated to be a 90 per cent deficit of small houses vis-à-vis families who will face this arbitrary cut in housing benefit. Either they pay increased rent from meagre incomes in order to stay where they are, fall into arrears with all the inherent problems or move. But where to?
This is logical howler, so stupid that I'm amazed anyone keeps repeating it.
If you have 100 properties under-occupied in the social housing sector and no vacancies, and 90 properties in the private sector occupied in over-crowded conditions by families because the council can't find bigger properties for them, plus ten vacant small properties in the private sector, it will look as though 90 of the 100 households in the first category have nowhere to go.
Err, not quite. It will seem that that is so, until you have a sudden flash of illumination and realise that by vacting the larger properties, they create opportunies for families currently in over-crowded conditions to move, freeing up a smaller properties for the first group.
"OK a correction. The Daily Mail with 1.86m readers is at 16% the 2nd most popular newspaper for Lib Dem voters. The Sun (2.4m 18%) is the most popular. Both have gone for the welfare Philpott angle."
Let's not forget that the Mail has a very substantial number of Labour and LD readers - those who sneer at it or think its pro-Tory are playing to their own prejudices. It's massively popular, knows how to talk hot-button language and appeals to those from a wide range of political colours who are socially conservative in outlook.
The Mail is the favourite read of Lib Dem voters. FACT.
FALSE , you would not recognise a fact if it smacked you in the face .
Should the ECB required to lend money to all Eurozone countries in all circumstances? Should the BoE be required to lend money to the government?
The ECB was setup from the start to make primary funding of government deficits illegal. If countries didn't like that condition, their democratically elected representatives were not required to vote for their country to join the Euro.
I'm not even talking about the primary funding of government. I'm talking about a central bank's first function of being a lender of last resort.
'The General Medical Council buys £280,000 private medical insurance for its staff'
The GMC does a Ratner,you couldn't make it up.
I wonder how many other unions dodge the queues
The GMC is not a union for doctors (that is the BMA and HCSA) the GMC is our regulator, and an organ of the government and its agenda. It is widely unpopular with doctors, not least for their recent attacks on doctors use of social media. They are our inquisitors not our union.
'The General Medical Council buys £280,000 private medical insurance for its staff'
The GMC does a Ratner,you couldn't make it up.
I wonder how many other unions dodge the queues
The GMC is not a union: it is a quango, and one stet up by a Conservative government to maintain the medical register -- ie it licences doctors as qualified to practise, whether privately or under the NHS, or both. Of course, when Lord Derby was Prime Minister, there was no NHS.
Most private doctors also work in the NHS. A fact which interacts badly with the pb meme that everyone in the public sector votes Labour, and in the private sector Conservative.
@TGOHF I think the 2011 is more interesting/damaging. Two years has been plenty for "the grass is greener mentality" to grow and people's perceptions of DM to diverge from what DM would actually be like.
Harry - Over 360,000 now. Certainly looks like the quiet man has turned up the volume. PR brilliance from a comedy govt. that keeps raising the bar on how not to do it.
Given there are 6.4M union members in the Uk that suggests a social media campaign pick up rate of 0.5%.
Pretty poor really.
It's got to be tempting for IDS to do it during the summer recess. Porridge for breakfast, beans and toast for lunch, canned tuna and a baked potato for dinner. He could cycle to work on a spare bike from freecycle. As a former military man, I'm sure he'd cope perfectly stoically as he's been through a lot worse. It would really shut the lefties up.
Through the LTRO, and other emergency liquidity measures, you would find it hard to make the case that the ECB has failed to be the lender of last resort to the Eurozone banking sector.
I can't abide concurrent sentencing - whilst the US version of 856yrs in jail is just silly - we have the opposite problem. If your actions result in the death of 6 of your own kids because you were cynically attempting to manipulate the system by starting a fire - well you don't deserve another life bar one in prison.
I've never met anyone who supports concurrent sentencing.
Pleasure to meet you, I'm someone who supports concurrent sentencing in a lot of circumstances.
Perhaps for fraud, certain motoring offences, habitual shoplifters, some public order offences. Certainly not here though.
I agree, this is a prime example for consecutive sentencing, but I suspect we won't get it
Luke McCormick received a seven year and four month sentence for being drunk and falling asleep at the wheel and killing two children in another vehicle.
Harry - Over 360,000 now. Certainly looks like the quiet man has turned up the volume. PR brilliance from a comedy govt. that keeps raising the bar on how not to do it.
Given there are 6.4M union members in the Uk that suggests a social media campaign pick up rate of 0.5%.
Pretty poor really.
It's got to be tempting for IDS to do it during the summer recess. Porridge for breakfast, beans and toast for lunch, canned tuna and a baked potato for dinner. He could cycle to work on a spare bike from freecycle. As a former military man, I'm sure he'd cope perfectly stoically as he's been through a lot worse. It would really shut the lefties up.
The rule of thumb is not to rise to such things, because it will never work out well. IDS would look patronising (which is a tag rarely aligned with objective reality) and a little flippant. If he did it for two weeks, say, people would point out they live on it for months. And then he'd return to his plus six-figure salary and that wouldn't look very good.
Through the LTRO, and other emergency liquidity measures, you would find it hard to make the case that the ECB has failed to be the lender of last resort to the Eurozone banking sector.
I know it is and I know it has so far. However, this would be cut off if Greece or Cyprus or whoever rejected the bailout deal.
The Sun says today. " IT’S hard to imagine a more repulsive creature than Mick Philpott, the lowlife benefits scrounger convicted of killing six of his children in a fire. And who paid for his disgusting lifestyle? We did. Philpott may be the dregs of humanity. But the welfare system helped him every step of the way.
Thousands a month in handouts flowed into the council home he shared with wife Mairead — also convicted of the killings — and mistress Lisa Willis.
The more children he produced, the richer the State made him. He fathered 17 while dodging work and sponging off partners. He grasped every benefit going while demanding bigger council houses for his tribe. Was such feckless greed what the founding fathers of the welfare state intended to promote?
Philpott hatched the fire plot after his mistress walked out with her five kids, losing him a fortune in benefits. Those who oppose welfare reform should reflect on the central lesson of this case.
When benefits are so generous, easily obtainable and dished out indiscriminately, they can debase humanity — a point Labour and the churches refuse to grasp.
Instead of providing a safety net, they become an invitation to laze life away on the taxpayer — and, in Philpott’s case, wallow in a stew of sexual depravity.
"The car driver who caused the Selby rail crash which killed 10 people has said it was "fate" that the accident happened.
Gary Hart, whose Land Rover veered off the M62 and on to the track after he fell asleep at the wheel, spoke out on the 10th anniversary of the crash. He said: "I believe in fate and I was meant to be there that morning."
Meanwhile, Mary Dunn, whose train driver husband was killed, has said she cannot forgive Hart for what happened. The crash, at Great Heck near Selby, North Yorkshire, happened after Hart's Land Rover plunged off the motorway on to the East Coast main line.
This caused a 125mph London express train and a 1,800-tonne freight train, driven by Mr Dunn, to collide, killing six passengers, four railway staff and injuring more than 80 others. Hart, of Strubby, Lincolnshire, was unable to move his vehicle off the tracks and was calling the emergency services when the crash happened.
I do find it interesting that, even though the IMF has imposed very similar conditions on countries in the past, no-one accuses that institution of trampelling all over countries sovereignty.
There is the view that IMF demands led to the cuts to Pakistan's education system which allowed the Taliban to take over its schools, and from Pakistan to take control of Afghanistan. Still, no harm done.
On topic, while crimes of this nature seem to be most common among the underclass, people of all classes are capable of committing really wicked acts, so I think it is contrived to link this to benefit-dependency.
Could always make it compulsory to state the fathers name on a birth certificate and oblige him by law to cough up for the kid until he's 18. Too many human/privacy rights infringed I suppose. That's alright, cos I love paying for other feckless peoples kids via my taxes.
Time for some North Korean style workcamps for the lefty liberals who've fecked up UK society if you ask me.
I'll dig out some links either later on this evening or tomorrow, which can explain better why I'm an advocate of concurrent sentencing in most circumstances.
I'm on my phone, and I can't log into the places I need to dig out the articles and research.
On topic, while crimes of this nature seem to be most common among the underclass, people of all classes are capable of committing really wicked acts, so I think it is contrived to link this to benefit-dependency.
There's an element of a "correlation is not a causation" but it is possible to offer viable (correct or incorrect) mechanisms for why there might be a causation. Namely that this man in particular was encouraged by the system to view his own children as a means to an end, namely an income. Once that had become ingrained, then plausibly it contributed to his willingness to see the risking of his children's lives as a similar means to an end and/or a certain level of contempt over them.
Seriously do you believe that? Go on any RSL or Council mutual exchange register or the national HomeSwappers website. There are thousands of people in smaller accommodation desperate to move to larger accommodation. In the vast majority of areas the number of 1 or two bedroom properties in the Council or large RSLs housing stock vastly outweighs 3 or 4 bedroom accommodation. Any single person in a three bedroom property could get an exchange to a one bedroom flat instantly in any area of the country. It is just nonsense to say otherwise. .
Also why would Councils operate a Tenants Incentive Scheme where they pay people to move to smaller accommodation, if such smaller accommodation does not exist?
The Daily Mail’s reaction to the tragedy of Michael Philpott’s multiple manslaughter of his six children is not only disturbing in its attempt to capitalise on the deaths of six young children for political gain, but it also shows the paper’s complete double standards. Today it reports:
“Michael Philpott is a perfect parable for our age: His story shows the pervasiveness of evil born of welfare dependency. The trial spoke volumes about the sheer nastiness of the individuals involved. But it also lifted the lid on the bleak and often grotesque world of the welfare benefit scroungers — of whom there are not dozens, not hundreds, but tens of thousands in our country.“
A cursory look at the paper’s treatment of another tragedy, however – this time involving a Shropshire millionaire rather than a family on benefits – shows that, in the eyes of the Mail the poor go about dying, or in this case killing, rather differently to the rich:
“The businessman who took his own life yesterday after murdering his wife and teenage daughter was heavily in debt, it emerged today…Detectives believe the mild-mannered family man snapped as he struggled to cope with spiralling debts…Last night his sister Claire Rheade said: ‘It’s unbelievable – he doted on his family, he would never harm them. ‘He was a gentle man who wouldn’t hurt a fly.’”
I’ve looked back through the DM archives but have so far been unable to find a front page damning Hugh McFall as a “vile product of millionaire Britain”. And rightly so, for that would be absurd. According to the Mail, the poor die differently though.
As the tabloids often trumpet, "you couldn't make it up". Except they do, all the time.
I do find it amusing when some people use the term "Tea Party Tory". It shows a wholly ignorant understanding of history, as the Boston Tea Party was an act of protest against the Tory government, and thoroughly condemned (probably correctly) in Tory circles as an incident of wanton anarchy.
I must be the only ex-con, ex-smack-addict, convicted fraudster, multiple babyfather, brothel-goer, alcoholic, and accused rapist who's a member of the Elite.
Nah, I know a few.
In fact one of them was arrested in connection with a murder, beat that!
I must be the only ex-con, ex-smack-addict, convicted fraudster, multiple babyfather, brothel-goer, alcoholic, and accused rapist who's a member of the Elite.
I doubt that, Mr. T.. Though I'd be pushed to name, of the top of my head, a member who has all your qualifications, the English aristocracy has always had some fairly eccentric characters in its ranks.
"I have cancer. It started in my gall bladder, has infected both lobes of my liver and probably also my pancreas and some lymph nodes, plus one tumour is massed around a group of major blood vessels in the same volume, effectively ruling out any chance of surgery to remove the tumours either in the short or long term.
The bottom line, now, I'm afraid, is that as a late stage gall bladder cancer patient, I'm expected to live for 'several months' and it’s extremely unlikely I'll live beyond a year. So it looks like my latest novel, The Quarry, will be my last.
As a result, I've withdrawn from all planned public engagements and I've asked my partner Adele if she will do me the honour of becoming my widow (sorry - but we find ghoulish humour helps). By the time this goes out we'll be married and on a short honeymoon. We intend to spend however much quality time I have left seeing friends and relations and visiting places that have meant a lot to us. Meanwhile my heroic publishers are doing all they can to bring the publication date of my new novel forward by as much as four months, to give me a better chance of being around when it hits the shelves..."
"I have cancer. It started in my gall bladder, has infected both lobes of my liver and probably also my pancreas and some lymph nodes, plus one tumour is massed around a group of major blood vessels in the same volume, effectively ruling out any chance of surgery to remove the tumours either in the short or long term.
The bottom line, now, I'm afraid, is that as a late stage gall bladder cancer patient, I'm expected to live for 'several months' and it’s extremely unlikely I'll live beyond a year. So it looks like my latest novel, The Quarry, will be my last.
As a result, I've withdrawn from all planned public engagements and I've asked my partner Adele if she will do me the honour of becoming my widow (sorry - but we find ghoulish humour helps). By the time this goes out we'll be married and on a short honeymoon. We intend to spend however much quality time I have left seeing friends and relations and visiting places that have meant a lot to us. Meanwhile my heroic publishers are doing all they can to bring the publication date of my new novel forward by as much as four months, to give me a better chance of being around when it hits the shelves..."
Oh, that is terrible news. I enjoyed 'Consider Phlebas' alot.
I must be the only ex-con, ex-smack-addict, convicted fraudster, multiple babyfather, brothel-goer, alcoholic, and accused rapist who's a member of the Elite.
I could introduce you to some others if you are feeling lonely ;-)
The Daily Mail’s reaction to the tragedy of Michael Philpott’s multiple manslaughter of his six children is not only disturbing in its attempt to capitalise on the deaths of six young children for political gain, but it also shows the paper’s complete double standards. Today it reports:
“Michael Philpott is a perfect parable for our age: His story shows the pervasiveness of evil born of welfare dependency. The trial spoke volumes about the sheer nastiness of the individuals involved. But it also lifted the lid on the bleak and often grotesque world of the welfare benefit scroungers — of whom there are not dozens, not hundreds, but tens of thousands in our country.“
A cursory look at the paper’s treatment of another tragedy, however – this time involving a Shropshire millionaire rather than a family on benefits – shows that, in the eyes of the Mail the poor go about dying, or in this case killing, rather differently to the rich:
“The businessman who took his own life yesterday after murdering his wife and teenage daughter was heavily in debt, it emerged today…Detectives believe the mild-mannered family man snapped as he struggled to cope with spiralling debts…Last night his sister Claire Rheade said: ‘It’s unbelievable – he doted on his family, he would never harm them. ‘He was a gentle man who wouldn’t hurt a fly.’”
I’ve looked back through the DM archives but have so far been unable to find a front page damning Hugh McFall as a “vile product of millionaire Britain”. And rightly so, for that would be absurd. According to the Mail, the poor die differently though.
As the tabloids often trumpet, "you couldn't make it up". Except they do, all the time.
I suppose a major difference is that one killed himself, so was quite possibly suffering one kind of breakdown, while the other was plotting to make money by risking his kids lives,
I don't get why the rich guy didn't just kill himself rather than his family first though.
I must be the only ex-con, ex-smack-addict, convicted fraudster, multiple babyfather, brothel-goer, alcoholic, and accused rapist who's a member of the Elite.
Mick_Pork you have the readership of a few hundred on here whereas the Sun & Mail will reach the best part of 10 million..
Whereas the BBC has an even greater viewership so the BBC is best?? Don't you ever tire of making uttery facile 'points'? It would appear not.
Quantity is hardly the same as quality. MPs and tabloid journos holding somewhere around the same level of trust with the public as bankers. That isn't a good thing in case you didn't grasp it.
Do you agree that this issue will hurt Labour and the Lib Dems with the voters? That is the key question.
Of course not because it's bullshit. It's bullshit now and it will still be bullshit tomorrow.
I think that when one posts using their shoe-size, it tells the rest of us where they are intellectually. Those who give this Mail headline any serious credence or justification prove that conclusively. ;^)
Cameron will not be backing the Mail on this one unless he has descended into complete lunacy.
"I don't get why the rich guy didn't just kill himself rather than his family first though"
Isn't the psychopathy to do with punishing others/taking them with him in that case in a weird 'if I can't have them neither can you' motive? It's quite common for spouses to kill their own children when they commit suicide because they believe the world is too horrible to leave them behind and its an act of kindness to kill them too.
On topic, while crimes of this nature seem to be most common among the underclass, people of all classes are capable of committing really wicked acts, so I think it is contrived to link this to benefit-dependency.
There's an element of a "correlation is not a causation" but it is possible to offer viable (correct or incorrect) mechanisms for why there might be a causation. Namely that this man in particular was encouraged by the system to view his own children as a means to an end, namely an income. Once that had become ingrained, then plausibly it contributed to his willingness to see the risking of his children's lives as a similar means to an end and/or a certain level of contempt over them.
Parents throughout history, and in all cultures, have seen their children as a source of income and the future security of their family. This is not something that can be attributed to the welfare state.
It is articles like those that prove the need for press controls. Once ordinary people find out that they can have far better clinical outcomes and treatment under the NHS but in privately run hospitals, where will it end? Thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of NHS managers will be thrown onto the scrap heap, nurses will be obliged to nurse, bureaucrats will have no meetings to go to, it will be the start of a very slippery slope. Ultimately public servants will have to focus on providing services to the public. It will be the end of civilisation as we know it.
No, it is quite impossible. HMG must reopen Leveson and introduce proper controls on the press.
I don't get why the rich guy didn't just kill himself rather than his family first though.
You don't get why the Mail or yourself are looking so hard for far more sympathetic justifications for child murder in one case and quite the opposite in another case where children were also killed? That's unfortunate. I doubt you will be the only one somehow.
I must be the only ex-con, ex-smack-addict, convicted fraudster, multiple babyfather, brothel-goer, alcoholic, and accused rapist who's a member of the Elite.
If TD can defer the costs of his site by "hosting" an Amazon bookstore could you and OGH not do summinck similar? Better than the muntah idea of "badges-for-bundles"....
A disconcertingly high proportion of the commenters on here appear to be 'Elites' by the BBC definition (including me, to my surprise). This means either:
a) This is the highest-powered group of blog commenters this side of the Bilderberg blog (invitation only). b) My understanding of the word 'Elite' is very flawed. c) The BBC quiz is a load of bollocks.
Parents throughout history, and in all cultures, have seen their children as a source of income and the future security of their family. This is not something that can be attributed to the welfare state.
Correct. Philpott was a domineering violent bully and manipulator and none of that would have been changed by how he accrued his income. He was self-evidently not averse to breaking the law so any rules and systems for income would always have been attempted to be broken or exploited by him. No matter where he was or what they were.
Comments
My first idea, (and worth a few percent at least), would be instant castration of violent rapists and flogging for wife beaters. Fits my political agenda as well. Simple fast way to sweep back into power for the Tories. It's the kind of idea you are suggesting we take up....or?
http://order-order.com/2013/04/03/tories-formally-complain-to-lord-hall-over-ids-interview/
"First day in the job and already the Tories are complaining to Lord Hall. Media Guido has a letter sent by Tory MP Dominic Raab complaining about the “market trader” David Bennett who was used by the Today Programme to put that question to IDS. "
He did however have one great story about a woman that was answering questions when they were assessing her benefits eligibility. When asked who the father was to one of her children, she didn't know. The questioner asked how it was she didn't know, was it that there were several men around the time she conceived and she wasn't sure when it happened? "Oh, I know when it happened - it was one time in the McDonald's toilets. It's just that he never took off his motorcycle helmet..."
- Iain Malcolm as we have all understood.
- his brother Cllr Ed. He's allegedly not a particular shining star. Ahead of a past selection, there were rumours he was undertaking public speaking training.
- Tina Roche. She has confirmed she will apply. Previously shortlisted for Redcar, she is assistant branch secretary of Unison South Tyneside.
- Sherie Murphy. Previously shortlisted in Redcar too, she represents Boldon Colliery ward on South Tyneside Council.
- Emma Lewell-Buck. Recently shortlisted for Carlisle, she's another South Tyneside Cllr (her ward is in Jarrow constituency.
- Can the runner up in Middlesbrough selection (Progress backed and pushed by David Miliband at the time) be interested in South Shields? He's from Teesside rather than Tyneside.
- Lewis Atkinson. He run for the NEC in 2012 outside of the official slates. In the past he stood for local elections in both Sunderland and South Tyneside. He's from Gateshead CLP.
And obviously a couple of SpAds, a Cllr Hussain and some Islington Cllrs.
All these people with their faux indignation because the article says he is on benefits make me laugh. Do you really believe this (I can't call him a man) would have had this many children if he had to go out and work to provide for them?
The paper is only reflecting what a large section of the population think. No doubt many polis would like to express the same; they can't for obvious reasons.
Nice to see our resident, intellectually-challenged, lefties get into such a lather over this: They know not the difference between right and wrong. Maybe Smukesh should return and analyse them: Are these signs of repressed feelings...?
PR brilliance from a comedy govt. that keeps raising the bar on how not to do it.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100…
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this…
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that’s what they decided to do..
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
“Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20″. Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?
How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.
“I only got a pound out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,”but he got £10!”
“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a pound too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”
“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!”
“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
Re-posted from Pete Ross
The Mail is the most popular non red top (quality) newspaper for LD voters. Must be why OGH quotes it? ....... he ducks.....
I'd love to see the methodology behind this. I'd call myself working class aspirational sort. The sort of voter who doesn't want to be blue-collar, but white collar. That's very much the attitude of my parents and grandparents.
I suspect the 16% of Mail reader who vote LibDem are more in number than the 44% of Indy or 37% of Guardian readers than do.
"Oh, I know when it happened - it was one time in the McDonald's toilets. It's just that he never took off his motorcycle helmet..."
Splutters.
Should the ECB required to lend money to all Eurozone countries in all circumstances?
Should the BoE be required to lend money to the government?
The ECB was setup from the start to make primary funding of government deficits illegal. If countries didn't like that condition, their democratically elected representatives were not required to vote for their country to join the Euro.
Pretty poor really.
If you have 100 properties under-occupied in the social housing sector and no vacancies, and 90 properties in the private sector occupied in over-crowded conditions by families because the council can't find bigger properties for them, plus ten vacant small properties in the private sector, it will look as though 90 of the 100 households in the first category have nowhere to go.
Err, not quite. It will seem that that is so, until you have a sudden flash of illumination and realise that by vacting the larger properties, they create opportunies for families currently in over-crowded conditions to move, freeing up a smaller properties for the first group.
YouGov @YouGov 1m
42% of the public believe Labour would have been better off with David Miliband as leader, up 6% from 2011 - http://y-g.co/11l3ZIt
"OK a correction. The Daily Mail with 1.86m readers is at 16% the 2nd most popular newspaper for Lib Dem voters. The Sun (2.4m 18%) is the most popular. Both have gone for the welfare Philpott angle."
The Sun is the favourite.
Does that make you feel better about yourself?
Professor Kamerschen has denied writing the piece. Doesn't make it any less interesting, mind.
"Oh - I see from Vanilla's *mentions* that someone who isn't meant to comment about me has just done so."
Who isn't meant to comment about you and why and who passed this bizarre judgement?
More of a Rand Paul fan for future reference.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/21-22/90/contents/enacted
Most private doctors also work in the NHS. A fact which interacts badly with the pb meme that everyone in the public sector votes Labour, and in the private sector Conservative.
Through the LTRO, and other emergency liquidity measures, you would find it hard to make the case that the ECB has failed to be the lender of last resort to the Eurozone banking sector.
http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/Definitive_guideline_TICs__totality_Final_web.pdf
Luke McCormick received a seven year and four month sentence for being drunk and falling asleep at the wheel and killing two children in another vehicle.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/3145435/Plymouth-goalkeeper-Luke-McCormick-jailed-for-killing-boys-in-drunken-crash.html
and he was out in less than four years
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2155883/Drink-drive-McCormick-freed-prison--day-anniversary-boys-deaths.html
http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/75671/the_sun_tuesday_2nd_april_2013.html
" IT’S hard to imagine a more repulsive creature than Mick Philpott, the lowlife benefits scrounger convicted of killing six of his children in a fire. And who paid for his disgusting lifestyle? We did.
Philpott may be the dregs of humanity. But the welfare system helped him every step of the way.
Thousands a month in handouts flowed into the council home he shared with wife Mairead — also convicted of the killings — and mistress Lisa Willis.
The more children he produced, the richer the State made him. He fathered 17 while dodging work and sponging off partners.
He grasped every benefit going while demanding bigger council houses for his tribe. Was such feckless greed what the founding fathers of the welfare state intended to promote?
Philpott hatched the fire plot after his mistress walked out with her five kids, losing him a fortune in benefits. Those who oppose welfare reform should reflect on the central lesson of this case.
When benefits are so generous, easily obtainable and dished out indiscriminately, they can debase humanity — a point Labour and the churches refuse to grasp.
Instead of providing a safety net, they become an invitation to laze life away on the taxpayer — and, in Philpott’s case, wallow in a stew of sexual depravity.
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/4508014/The-Sun-says-Building-for-the-future.html#ixzz2POPbRhV4
This one stuck in my mind re sentencing.
"The car driver who caused the Selby rail crash which killed 10 people has said it was "fate" that the accident happened.
Gary Hart, whose Land Rover veered off the M62 and on to the track after he fell asleep at the wheel, spoke out on the 10th anniversary of the crash. He said: "I believe in fate and I was meant to be there that morning."
Meanwhile, Mary Dunn, whose train driver husband was killed, has said she cannot forgive Hart for what happened. The crash, at Great Heck near Selby, North Yorkshire, happened after Hart's Land Rover plunged off the motorway on to the East Coast main line.
This caused a 125mph London express train and a 1,800-tonne freight train, driven by Mr Dunn, to collide, killing six passengers, four railway staff and injuring more than 80 others. Hart, of Strubby, Lincolnshire, was unable to move his vehicle off the tracks and was calling the emergency services when the crash happened.
He had had little sleep the night before and was later found guilty of 10 counts of causing death by dangerous driving. Hart was sentenced to five years in prison. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-12591249
*chortle*
Time for some North Korean style workcamps for the lefty liberals who've fecked up UK society if you ask me.
I'll dig out some links either later on this evening or tomorrow, which can explain better why I'm an advocate of concurrent sentencing in most circumstances.
I'm on my phone, and I can't log into the places I need to dig out the articles and research.
I suspect doing the same for his son in 2016 will be similarly profitable.
9:28AM
@currystar
The numbers just don't add up for housing swaps
Seriously do you believe that? Go on any RSL or Council mutual exchange register or the national HomeSwappers website. There are thousands of people in smaller accommodation desperate to move to larger accommodation. In the vast majority of areas the number of 1 or two bedroom properties in the Council or large RSLs housing stock vastly outweighs 3 or 4 bedroom accommodation. Any single person in a three bedroom property could get an exchange to a one bedroom flat instantly in any area of the country. It is just nonsense to say otherwise. .
9:28AM
@currystar
The numbers just don't add up for housing swaps
Also why would Councils operate a Tenants Incentive Scheme where they pay people to move to smaller accommodation, if such smaller accommodation does not exist?
* FT Concise Posting Compendium (2013)
In fact one of them was arrested in connection with a murder, beat that!
Do you agree that this issue will hurt Labour and the Lib Dems with the voters? That is the key question.
I think that when one posts using their shoe-size, it tells the rest of us where they are intellectually ;^ )
"I have cancer. It started in my gall bladder, has infected both lobes of my liver and probably also my pancreas and some lymph nodes, plus one tumour is massed around a group of major blood vessels in the same volume, effectively ruling out any chance of surgery to remove the tumours either in the short or long term.
The bottom line, now, I'm afraid, is that as a late stage gall bladder cancer patient, I'm expected to live for 'several months' and it’s extremely unlikely I'll live beyond a year. So it looks like my latest novel, The Quarry, will be my last.
As a result, I've withdrawn from all planned public engagements and I've asked my partner Adele if she will do me the honour of becoming my widow (sorry - but we find ghoulish humour helps). By the time this goes out we'll be married and on a short honeymoon. We intend to spend however much quality time I have left seeing friends and relations and visiting places that have meant a lot to us. Meanwhile my heroic publishers are doing all they can to bring the publication date of my new novel forward by as much as four months, to give me a better chance of being around when it hits the shelves..."
Seems to be changing his mind on immigration and is all for fiscal sanity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS4C7bvHv2w
http://www.cityam.com/article/private-expertise-can-cure-nhs-here-s-what-we-ve-done-already
http://www.cityam.com/article/economics-teaching-bankrupt-it-s-time-abandon-failed-old-models
URL's say it all.
I suppose a major difference is that one killed himself, so was quite possibly suffering one kind of breakdown, while the other was plotting to make money by risking his kids lives,
I don't get why the rich guy didn't just kill himself rather than his family first though.
Quantity is hardly the same as quality. MPs and tabloid journos holding somewhere around the same level of trust with the public as bankers. That isn't a good thing in case you didn't grasp it. Of course not because it's bullshit. It's bullshit now and it will still be bullshit tomorrow.
I think that when one posts using their shoe-size, it tells the rest of us where they are intellectually. Those who give this Mail headline any serious credence or justification prove that conclusively. ;^)
Cameron will not be backing the Mail on this one unless he has descended into complete lunacy.
"I don't get why the rich guy didn't just kill himself rather than his family first though"
Isn't the psychopathy to do with punishing others/taking them with him in that case in a weird 'if I can't have them neither can you' motive? It's quite common for spouses to kill their own children when they commit suicide because they believe the world is too horrible to leave them behind and its an act of kindness to kill them too.
We see several cases a year when this happens.
It is articles like those that prove the need for press controls. Once ordinary people find out that they can have far better clinical outcomes and treatment under the NHS but in privately run hospitals, where will it end? Thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of NHS managers will be thrown onto the scrap heap, nurses will be obliged to nurse, bureaucrats will have no meetings to go to, it will be the start of a very slippery slope. Ultimately public servants will have to focus on providing services to the public. It will be the end of civilisation as we know it.
No, it is quite impossible. HMG must reopen Leveson and introduce proper controls on the press.
Bugger, Bugger, Bugger, Bugger.
"Do you agree that this issue will hurt Labour and the Lib Dems with the voters? That is the key question."
Everyone knows that the Philpotts were Tories
Not all are sex tourists to be fair.
As Junior is about I thought I'd this post this link....
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/bookstore/
If TD can defer the costs of his site by "hosting" an Amazon bookstore could you and OGH not do summinck similar? Better than the muntah idea of "badges-for-bundles"....
If only Chris Huhne had spoken to Carlos Tevez
a) This is the highest-powered group of blog commenters this side of the Bilderberg blog (invitation only).
b) My understanding of the word 'Elite' is very flawed.
c) The BBC quiz is a load of bollocks.
Answers on a postcard to the usual address.
I'll look into it, thanks.
And now back to work.
Mind you, they mostly live in Cheshire.