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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Extraordinary scenes at the GOP convention as Ted Cruz does

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Extraordinary scenes at the GOP convention as Ted Cruz doesn’t back Trump and says “Vote with your conscience”

Overnight in Cleveland, Ohio, the contender who had run Trump closest in the primaries, Senator Ted Cruz, had a different approach and refused to back the man who 24 hours beforehand had officially become the nominee. Cruz was also speaking in prime time, that part of the night’s proceeding that were getting the most TV time.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Eerste!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Second :D
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Morning all.

    I am off to Putin's Russia - St Petersburg to be precise - in a couple of hours.

    Last time I left the country Brexit happened. Let's hope nothing equally momentous happens this time!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Lyin' Ted
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,522
    Not sure the Cruz speech will harm Trump particularly, he'll probably wear it as a badge of honour. Normal rules don't apply to him.

    Foreign policy messups have more potential to be difficult for him.
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    There is of course the theory that Trump is trying to lose, but is being far too conventional in going about it...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Cyclefree said:

    Morning all.

    I am off to Putin's Russia - St Petersburg to be precise - in a couple of hours.

    Last time I left the country Brexit happened. Let's hope nothing equally momentous happens this time!

    If OGH is on holiday, consider your trip cancelled!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,668
    Perhaps he really doesn't want to win?

    Trump is Monty Brewster and I claim my five pounds.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Not sure the Cruz speech will harm Trump particularly, he'll probably wear it as a badge of honour. Normal rules don't apply to him.

    Foreign policy messups have more potential to be difficult for him.

    Agree on the former. Not so sure on the latter. He had already lost a lot of the foreign policy conservatives. My wife and I included.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Looks like sour grapes, Cruz may have damaged himself politically far more than Trump.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For him:

    - Hillary is a crap campaigner.
    - 'Crooked Hillary' will stick because it has enough basis to
    - He has more positive messages than she does (even if they're either vacuous or daft)
    - He has more chance of landing a knock-out punch in the primaries because there's more chance of him doing or saying something unexpected that she wasn't ready to respond to
    - Hillary's favourability ratings have headed steadily south during the campaign; Trump's have fluctuated

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    Logically, if it's hard to call then the value ought to lie with the one at 5/2 but whether it does relies on how solid Hillary's lead is. If, ignoring minor candidates, Trump can easily reach 46 but struggles to pass 48 then her lead, narrow though it might be, is solid.

    Is that the case? My gut instinct is not. That her general crapness introduces a weakness to her figures based not on switching but on the risk of losses to outside the two main candidates. She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Looks like sour grapes, Cruz may have damaged himself politically far more than Trump.

    I'd forgotten how weird and creepy looking Lyin' Ted is. The complete TV evangelist - and that's not a compliment.

    I watched the clips and thought he just appeared silly and mean. Trump waving from the back upstaged him, and looked much more in touch.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Interesting. The BBC have a story from Thatcher's archives about an episode of Today which aired a short story that compared Thatcherism to the Final Solution which they now admit was 'unwise' to air (lawyers thought it was clearly libelous). So they publish the entire libel again as part of the new story ... ;o
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For him:

    - Hillary is a crap campaigner.
    - 'Crooked Hillary' will stick because it has enough basis to
    - He has more positive messages than she does (even if they're either vacuous or daft)
    - He has more chance of landing a knock-out punch in the primaries because there's more chance of him doing or saying something unexpected that she wasn't ready to respond to
    - Hillary's favourability ratings have headed steadily south during the campaign; Trump's have fluctuated

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    Logically, if it's hard to call then the value ought to lie with the one at 5/2 but whether it does relies on how solid Hillary's lead is. If, ignoring minor candidates, Trump can easily reach 46 but struggles to pass 48 then her lead, narrow though it might be, is solid.

    Is that the case? My gut instinct is not. That her general crapness introduces a weakness to her figures based not on switching but on the risk of losses to outside the two main candidates. She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.

    What's the likelihood of previous DNVers coming out of the woodwork? Trump seems to be appealing to a great many disenfranchised. I'm wary on these - we saw what Brexit did and caught many out.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    Your nightmares are pretty tame, are they not?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    That's some weird cheese you've been eating :open_mouth:
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Mortimer said:

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    Your nightmares are pretty tame, are they not?
    At least he wasn't naked too.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    That's not a nightmare; it's a prophesy. Train, young jedi - the force is strong in you.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    ... She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.

    On 2, Hillary's campaign team has made loads of basic mistakes, including verifiably untrue statements about the emails and the whole "I'm with her" tagline, which unbelievably they are still sticking with.

    On 4, I fell for the "Trump will never break through his ceiling" thing when he was at 17% in the primaries, arguing he could not get above 20-25%. I won't make that mistake again. Although he will have a tougher time with the whole electorate than he did in the primary selectorate, who knows how he'll fair with independents faced with the devil's choice of him vs Hillary?

    By all reasonable analysis, there should never have been a Trump campaign beyond September 2015. That he is the candidate means that everything political observers knew is not applicable.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,732
    For TSE, joining the dots.

    Guido did some work on that address in Shad Thames.

    He says it is the home of one Jon Lansmann.
    http://order-order.com/2015/11/02/peoples-momentum-promotes-our-values-with-million-pound-flat/

    Bought when Mr Lansmann moved from his previous address:
    http://order-order.com/2016/03/21/through-the-keyhole-lansmans-1-5-million-pad/

    A £4 enquiry to the Land Registry for the Deeds may not go amiss.

    Some of the millions may have come from activities involving developing former community hostels etc into flats, through tax efficient corporate structures!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12060177/The-cheerleader-for-Corbyn-who-supports-sons-schemes-to-sell-off-homeless-hostels.html

    Property activities would be all of a muchness with eg Michael Meacher.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,668

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    I'm hoping it's more like The Wicker Man for lefties and Remainers, actually.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    I'm hoping it's more like The Wicker Man for lefties and Remainers, actually.
    A bonfire of the vanities and the insanities?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    There is a world within which it is entirely possible that "in" the single market can be accompanied by a restriction on FMoP.

    Of coures the orthodoxy is that the EU would never allow it, given its central pillar status, but these are negotiations. The more we hear from DD et al that this is to be our position, the more likely your nightmare scenario will transpire.

    What happens after that? Well it would be a first ("the UK model") and would require some contortions by the EU. But the EU is after all a collection of individual states, each sovereign (!), so they might decide it is in everyone's best interest.

    A tail event, IMO, but not impossible. But of course by that time everyone will have lost interest and if DD goes marching into battle under the flag of Single Market no Free Movement, only about 1.5% of the population will be following what actually happens next.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,475
    I can see why people would be reluctant to back Hillary. Yes she has negatives and isn't the perfect candidate, who is? However the fundamentals favour her, she has huge advantages among non-whites and is a far better candidate than her press which has an air of gratuitous misogyny.

    Trump isn't altering the field of play in any meaningful sense. Every US election I've followed the Republicans target MI, PA and talk excitedly about NJ. Every time all of them end up reliably in the Dem column. I don't see much altering from the 2012 map tbh
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Good morning, everyone.

    Little less sweltering, which is super.

    Mr. Submarine, the PMQs performance must've been good to terrify your subconscious so :p

    On-topic: hard but not impossible to see Trump winning. I wonder which result would be best for Britain.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MTimT said:

    Interesting. The BBC have a story from Thatcher's archives about an episode of Today which aired a short story that compared Thatcherism to the Final Solution which they now admit was 'unwise' to air (lawyers thought it was clearly libelous). So they publish the entire libel again as part of the new story ... ;o

    The libel, if any, lay in the title. Ironically, the 50-word short story itself is a diatribe against legalising drugs that could easily have come from the authoritarian right (or left).
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36847893

    The other odd thing is that while Denis complained, there is no evidence Mrs Thatcher herself even heard it.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Looks like sour grapes, Cruz may have damaged himself politically far more than Trump.

    I'd forgotten how weird and creepy looking Lyin' Ted is. The complete TV evangelist - and that's not a compliment.

    I watched the clips and thought he just appeared silly and mean. Trump waving from the back upstaged him, and looked much more in touch.
    Considering the personal abuse that Trump has centered his campaign on, I am not at all surprised that Cruz has refused to endorse him.

    If Ted said "vote Trump" then he really would be "Lyin' Ted".
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    F1: Sauber bought by finance group:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36848200
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    Is OGH ok? Not seen many comments from him lately.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    MTimT said:

    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    ... She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.

    On 2, Hillary's campaign team has made loads of basic mistakes, including verifiably untrue statements about the emails and the whole "I'm with her" tagline, which unbelievably they are still sticking with.

    On 4, I fell for the "Trump will never break through his ceiling" thing when he was at 17% in the primaries, arguing he could not get above 20-25%. I won't make that mistake again. Although he will have a tougher time with the whole electorate than he did in the primary selectorate, who knows how he'll fair with independents faced with the devil's choice of him vs Hillary?

    By all reasonable analysis, there should never have been a Trump campaign beyond September 2015. That he is the candidate means that everything political observers knew is not applicable.
    Both true to an extent but it's a relative game. I would never claim that Hillary's team won't make any mistakes but I'd stand by my comment that they're much less likely to make as many, or, when they do, that they'll be as bad.

    I tipped Trump early on because once he'd been in the lead for three months (which was still 2015), it was clear that his campaign had staying power and - crucially - that no-one else's seemed to. But he does have a limit; we only need to look at how deeply he's disliked by a lot of people to know that. His chance is that Hillary is nearly as deeply disliked by nearly as many. We really need to think about this election in terms of millions of voters, rather than in terms of percentages. Turnout will be absolutely key.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,475
    Mr Dancer the best result for Britain is definitely not having Trump as President. I'm wondering though if the liberal left are like the boy who cried wolf. On both sides of the pond they shriek blue murder about even moderate centre right politicians with embarrassing hyperbole. There would be a sense of poetic justice if their shrieking was ignored at the moment it ought to be heeded.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Gisella Stuart on Today proving why she should lead the Labour Party....
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,475
    Mortimer said:

    Gisella Stuart on Today proving why she should lead the Labour Party....

    It shouldn't be but her accent would be a huge problem for a certain subset of Labour voters who aren't as liberal and cuddly as all that
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2016
    Bloomberg - Trump Says US May Not Defend NATO Allies Against Russia Attack http://bloom.bg/29Xdadc

    Trump endorses Erdogan's crackdown and threatens to not meet NATO obligations. How does this "Make America Great Again"?

    A Trump Presidency really is a destabilising force in an unstable world.
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    I woke up this morning with an interesting thought on the upcoming presidential election.

    It seems that the conventional wisdom is that a strong Johnson campaign will hurt Trump and let Hillary win relatively easily. But what if that is wrong, what if the effect is the exact opposite and Johnson eats into Hillary's vote letting Trump squeeze through the middle.

    Surely the mainstream Democrat position is much closer to the Libertarian one than the Libertarian position is to Republicans? Are mainstream Republicans really going to be drawn to someone who wants to end the war on drugs and is avowedly pro-choice?

    If Sanders was the Democrat candidate, offering a progressive economic platform, then there wouldn't be a risk but Hillary is a mainstream economically conservative Democrat which offers little separation from what the mainstream Republicans offer.

    In basic terms, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between the economic platforms of Hillary, Trump and Johnson. While on the social platform, Trump might be a liberal historically but he has pivoted to at least say conservative things, meanwhile in terms of socially liberal policy, Johnson is a far more attractive option to a lot of potential Democrats than Hillary.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Good morning, everyone.

    Little less sweltering, which is super.

    Mr. Submarine, the PMQs performance must've been good to terrify your subconscious so :p

    On-topic: hard but not impossible to see Trump winning. I wonder which result would be best for Britain.

    Hillary, without question. She is a creature of the Beltway, with all the assumptions that come with that, which includes fairly unquestioning support for Nato and a don't-rock-the-boat attitude. Trump is weak on Nato and uncomfortably close to Putin, which ought to be a cause for grave concern in eastern Europe. Indeed, he'd be the most isolationist president since before WWII and could quite easily knock down what remains of the useful post-War international edifice.
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    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,027

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    Continual gloating sticks in the craw..,, Most people will accept it if its very occassional
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For him:

    - Hillary is a crap campaigner.
    - 'Crooked Hillary' will stick because it has enough basis to
    - He has more positive messages than she does (even if they're either vacuous or daft)
    - He has more chance of landing a knock-out punch in the primaries because there's more chance of him doing or saying something unexpected that she wasn't ready to respond to
    - Hillary's favourability ratings have headed steadily south during the campaign; Trump's have fluctuated

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    Logically, if it's hard to call then the value ought to lie with the one at 5/2 but whether it does relies on how solid Hillary's lead is. If, ignoring minor candidates, Trump can easily reach 46 but struggles to pass 48 then her lead, narrow though it might be, is solid.

    Is that the case? My gut instinct is not. That her general crapness introduces a weakness to her figures based not on switching but on the risk of losses to outside the two main candidates. She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.

    What's the likelihood of previous DNVers coming out of the woodwork? Trump seems to be appealing to a great many disenfranchised. I'm wary on these - we saw what Brexit did and caught many out.
    The difference is that even if those voters turn out, most of them are in uncompetitive states. But it could make Pennsylvania or Ohio a very close run thing.

    And of course Trump could motivate voters belonging to groups that are scared of him becoming president (e.g. minorities) to turn out more than usual as well.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MTimT said:


    By all reasonable analysis, there should never have been a Trump campaign beyond September 2015. That he is the candidate means that everything political observers knew is not applicable.

    Is Trump sui generis or has he proved the Tea Party is not popular for its policies but because it is anti-establishment, and that Trump won because he is even more NOTA, despite espousing policies on most issues that made people wonder if he is not really a Democrat.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,070
    The Trump line about the Baltics is scary. These are liberal democracies that are members of NATO.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    If Trump wins and breaks NATO will the British join the EU Army?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    Jon Craig from Sky was squealing with delight over that. I've never seen him so !!!!!!! If he was a seal, he'd have clapped. Even Faisal liked it and couldn't resist looking happy - I can only assume he's looking forward to comparing her uncharitably to Thatcher.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472

    PlatoSaid said:

    Does the value still lies with the Donald? I find it very difficult to call right now.

    For him:

    - Hillary is a crap campaigner.
    - 'Crooked Hillary' will stick because it has enough basis to
    - He has more positive messages than she does (even if they're either vacuous or daft)
    - He has more chance of landing a knock-out punch in the primaries because there's more chance of him doing or saying something unexpected that she wasn't ready to respond to
    - Hillary's favourability ratings have headed steadily south during the campaign; Trump's have fluctuated

    For her:

    - Trump gives himself far more opportunity to sabotage his own campaign
    - Hillary's campaign team is much less likely to make basic mistakes
    - Trump's ratings are even worse than hers, and have been throughout
    - Trump's support is generally too narrow and seems unlikely to break through much beyond what he has; he's relying on Obama supporters abstaining or going third-party
    - She has been ahead in the head-to-heads pretty much throughout, across the country and in the swing states
    - Trump has a problem with women on the campaign trail and could easily be too personally offensive, making an attack on her sound like one on all women.

    Logically, if it's hard to call then the value ought to lie with the one at 5/2 but whether it does relies on how solid Hillary's lead is. If, ignoring minor candidates, Trump can easily reach 46 but struggles to pass 48 then her lead, narrow though it might be, is solid.

    Is that the case? My gut instinct is not. That her general crapness introduces a weakness to her figures based not on switching but on the risk of losses to outside the two main candidates. She should still be favourite but I wouldn't give her much more than a 60% chance.

    What's the likelihood of previous DNVers coming out of the woodwork? Trump seems to be appealing to a great many disenfranchised. I'm wary on these - we saw what Brexit did and caught many out.
    The difference is that even if those voters turn out, most of them are in uncompetitive states. But it could make Pennsylvania or Ohio a very close run thing.

    And of course Trump could motivate voters belonging to groups that are scared of him becoming president (e.g. minorities) to turn out more than usual as well.
    Won't we expect minority turnout to fall post-Obama? Positive motivation is always better than negative.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 912

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    The press will build you up first, so that the fall, when (not if) it comes will be greater!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    rcs1000 said:

    The Trump line about the Baltics is scary. These are liberal democracies that are members of NATO.

    Trident will deter Putin, May told me.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited July 2016

    If Trump wins and breaks NATO will the British join the EU Army?

    UK under command of foreign troops - unconscionable. Oh, well apart from SACEUR. But that's different. The right kind of foreign troop. What happens if they become the wrong kind.

    The irony being that the US might prove to be a far less stable administration for HMF to be under command of.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Jim, well, that's how the parable ends up going.

    Mr. Kendrick, I did think it may have been overdoing things.

    However, she might only see Corbyn (for PMQs) a few times, and it was her first outing, so she will have wanted to lay down a marker.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    You saw gloating, others saw the punch line to a planned "joke". If the commentary from the people paid to watch and write about this stuff, is anywhere close to being accurate it was exceptionally effective
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    Given what's happening in Turkey, I'd prefer the candidate who prioritises sorting out the West's relationship with Russia, rather than the candidate who's compared Putin with Hitler.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    Oh, we HAVE to see that....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    He should have done 'Cull Me Maybe'.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    edited July 2016
    The irony is that Trump's comments are in line with a lot of the Left in this country.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,475
    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    I'm sorry what? I always thought Clegg had the advantage over the rest of his party of being sane and serious. Sadly I was mistaken.
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    The Royal Navy's woes continue.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3700175/British-nuclear-submarine-forced-dock-Gibraltar-crashing-merchant-vessel-training-mission-Med.html

    Although the DM has a strange definition of "undamaged" judging from the picture.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    Looked pretty strong to me. The kind of stuff the public like in a leader (scores very well on best leader/strongest PM)
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,522
    edited July 2016
    saddened said:

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    You saw gloating, others saw the punch line to a planned "joke". If the commentary from the people paid to watch and write about this stuff, is anywhere close to being accurate it was exceptionally effective
    I didn't see gloating either. I do think the velociraptor analogy was very apt though. Poor Jezza was being absolutely annihilated. Because of the mis-match between May and Corbyn in ability and style, I could see that she could come across as being unduly pugnacious (there was a moment of that with Farron later, too) and too quick to have a go. That said, Thatcher dined out on having a go at everyone in the Commons for about 10 years.
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    I had a nightmare last night. Not a metaphorical nightmare an actual one. It was very vivid and powerful. It was next spring. May was at the podium in Downing Street confirming that the Article 50 notification had been sent and was formally lodged that morning. She was now tabling a motion for an early disolution of parliament to seek a mandate for her negotiating strategy. That the Strategy was Shrodingers EEA membership, being both in the Single Market fully but heavily restricting immigration didn't matter. By casting off the 35% at the edges of militant remain and and leave she tapped into a deep need for closure and clarity in the centre. The formula " Brexit must mean Brexit " was alchemical. It transmuted uncertainty into certainty so no body cared what Brexit was just that it had happened. In addition the radically increased majority she won meant she could deliver the compromisescneeded in parliament. With the SNP hold almost all it's seats the result for Labour was worse in seats and vote share than 1983. At the end of the nightmare May stood in a circle of many arms in a dance. Like Shiva the Destroyer.

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ToryJim said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    I'm sorry what? I always thought Clegg had the advantage over the rest of his party of being sane and serious. Sadly I was mistaken.
    Unlike the Edstone, someone realised that it would be an own goal.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    He should have done 'Cull Me Maybe'.
    :lol:

    Very good!
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Lowlander said:

    The Royal Navy's woes continue.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3700175/British-nuclear-submarine-forced-dock-Gibraltar-crashing-merchant-vessel-training-mission-Med.html

    Although the DM has a strange definition of "undamaged" judging from the picture.

    I read it as the merchant vessel was undamaged.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    saddened said:

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    You saw gloating, others saw the punch line to a planned "joke". If the commentary from the people paid to watch and write about this stuff, is anywhere close to being accurate it was exceptionally effective
    I didn't see gloating either. I do think the velociraptor analogy was very apt though. Poor Jezza was being absolutely annihilated. Because of the mis-match between May and Corbyn in ability and style, I could see that she could come across as being unduly pugnacious (there was a moment of that with Farron later, too) and too quick to have a go. That said, Thatcher dined out on having a go at everyone in the Commons for about 10 years.
    It just goes to show. If TM hadn't been practicing that all morning into the mirror then I'm a banana. She still didn't deliver it "naturally". And yet such is the expectation that Jezza would come off worse in any exchange, it was hailed as a triumph.

    I can also bet that she will have come away from that uber-planned joke thinking somewhere "that isn't me".
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Patrick said:

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?

    Join the Labour party ....

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    ToryJim said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    I'm sorry what? I always thought Clegg had the advantage over the rest of his party of being sane and serious. Sadly I was mistaken.
    According to a LD staffer - they hoped to show him in a light-hearted way and hoped it'd go viral. That was a lucky escape. I honestly can't get my head around some of these *ideas*. The EdStone still wins hands down.
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    edited July 2016

    Lowlander said:

    The Royal Navy's woes continue.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3700175/British-nuclear-submarine-forced-dock-Gibraltar-crashing-merchant-vessel-training-mission-Med.html

    Although the DM has a strange definition of "undamaged" judging from the picture.

    I read it as the merchant vessel was undamaged.
    A submarine is a boat. A merchant vessel would be a ship.

    But you could be right and its just the headline that's confusing.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,070
    tlg86 said:

    The irony is that Trump's comments are in line with a lot of the Left in this country.

    Protectionist - check
    Isolationist - check

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.
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    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Abbott showing her ability on R4, it appears working for Pfizer is just beyond the pale but meeting with the IRA during the troubles and standing on podiums with Hamas supporters is ok.
    Dear god she is awful.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The irony is that Trump's comments are in line with a lot of the Left in this country.

    Protectionist - check
    Isolationist - check

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.
    Bravo Robert - if only there was someone in the media who could explain this to the very occasionally correct but often wrong Lefty isolationists.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MTimT said:

    Interesting. The BBC have a story from Thatcher's archives about an episode of Today which aired a short story that compared Thatcherism to the Final Solution which they now admit was 'unwise' to air (lawyers thought it was clearly libelous). So they publish the entire libel again as part of the new story ... ;o

    No longer libelous - you can't libel the dead
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    ToryJim said:

    Mr Dancer the best result for Britain is definitely not having Trump as President. I'm wondering though if the liberal left are like the boy who cried wolf. On both sides of the pond they shriek blue murder about even moderate centre right politicians with embarrassing hyperbole. There would be a sense of poetic justice if their shrieking was ignored at the moment it ought to be heeded.

    Indeed. If the liberal left didn't have a habit for getting overworked by every little stupid thing in the world then we would not be in this position. Trump is a symptom of Americans getting sick of the PC culture war that seems to have taken their country over.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    saddened said:

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    You saw gloating, others saw the punch line to a planned "joke". If the commentary from the people paid to watch and write about this stuff, is anywhere close to being accurate it was exceptionally effective
    I didn't see gloating either. I do think the velociraptor analogy was very apt though. Poor Jezza was being absolutely annihilated. Because of the mis-match between May and Corbyn in ability and style, I could see that she could come across as being unduly pugnacious (there was a moment of that with Farron later, too) and too quick to have a go. That said, Thatcher dined out on having a go at everyone in the Commons for about 10 years.
    I thought she was rather mean to Farron with her parting shot - he looked squished after offering a friendly welcome type question. How old is Tim? He's got that permanent teenager manner - I find him very hard to take seriously.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.

    Trump or no Trump, I doubt Putin would expect a military response to an incursion in Estonia even today. What constrains Putin is his analysis of his own and his country's interests, not tough words from the US President.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,668

    If Trump wins and breaks NATO will the British join the EU Army?

    In your dreams.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,070

    If Trump wins and breaks NATO will the British join the EU Army?

    In your dreams.
    Donald Trump could presage the end of NATO. In that circumstance, I would (a) be fully understanding of our continental neighbours pooling their military forces; and (b) be supportive of a defensive alliance with the EU.
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    MTimT said:

    Interesting. The BBC have a story from Thatcher's archives about an episode of Today which aired a short story that compared Thatcherism to the Final Solution which they now admit was 'unwise' to air (lawyers thought it was clearly libelous). So they publish the entire libel again as part of the new story ... ;o

    The libel, if any, lay in the title. Ironically, the 50-word short story itself is a diatribe against legalising drugs that could easily have come from the authoritarian right (or left).
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36847893

    The other odd thing is that while Denis complained, there is no evidence Mrs Thatcher herself even heard it.

    Bloomberg - Trump Says US May Not Defend NATO Allies Against Russia Attack http://bloom.bg/29Xdadc

    Trump endorses Erdogan's crackdown and threatens to not meet NATO obligations. How does this "Make America Great Again"?

    A Trump Presidency really is a destabilising force in an unstable world.



    Did he mean all allies or just Turkey?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    TOPPING said:

    saddened said:

    May's performance at PMQs has had a strangely good press.

    The leaning over the dispatch box 'Remind you of anybodY/' looked liked gloating. She'd won the point already. The public forgives many things but gloatig sticks in the craw.

    You saw gloating, others saw the punch line to a planned "joke". If the commentary from the people paid to watch and write about this stuff, is anywhere close to being accurate it was exceptionally effective
    I didn't see gloating either. I do think the velociraptor analogy was very apt though. Poor Jezza was being absolutely annihilated. Because of the mis-match between May and Corbyn in ability and style, I could see that she could come across as being unduly pugnacious (there was a moment of that with Farron later, too) and too quick to have a go. That said, Thatcher dined out on having a go at everyone in the Commons for about 10 years.
    It just goes to show. If TM hadn't been practicing that all morning into the mirror then I'm a banana. She still didn't deliver it "naturally". And yet such is the expectation that Jezza would come off worse in any exchange, it was hailed as a triumph.

    I can also bet that she will have come away from that uber-planned joke thinking somewhere "that isn't me".
    Michael Deacon said in six years of watching her HoC's performances - she's managed one feeble/scripted joke. Thatcher didn't do jokes either - her attempts at conference were painful.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    Listening to Trump's Chief Policy Adviser the pitch is the same as the Brexiters'. The world is out of control and run by the elite; it's time to take back control.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2016
    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?

    Join the Labour party ....

    Now that would be a nightmare.....unless I paid £25 to get Jezza re-elected.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    edited July 2016
    I'm continually surprised by all the Brexit fans on here who are sniffy about Trump's views on foreign policy.

    The closest analogy I can think of is Scottish nationalists who want independence, but only within the safety of EU. They want Brexit, but only under Pax Americana.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The irony is that Trump's comments are in line with a lot of the Left in this country.

    Protectionist - check
    Isolationist - check

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.
    I was thinking more along the lines that the Left in the country thinks the US is a bully that has no right to lecture the rest of the world about democracy and the such like. But your points are very valid.

    I suspect Trump is just positioning himself to exert more spending from Europe on defence - and I don't blame him.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    Patrick said:

    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?

    Join the Labour party ....

    Now that would be a nightmare.....unless I paid £25 to get Jezza re-elected.
    You wouldn't even have had to paid - there are Facebook and crowdfunding sites clearly intended to pay the £25 for you...
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    PlatoSaid said:

    ToryJim said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    I'm sorry what? I always thought Clegg had the advantage over the rest of his party of being sane and serious. Sadly I was mistaken.
    According to a LD staffer - they hoped to show him in a light-hearted way and hoped it'd go viral. That was a lucky escape. I honestly can't get my head around some of these *ideas*. The EdStone still wins hands down.
    I see your EdStone and raise you William Hague in a baseball cap.

    To be serious, these people infest politics. Two backfiring stunts from Gordon Brown: the trip to Iraq, after he'd won because he was not Tony Blair, and having Mrs Thatcher round for tea. David Cameron cycling to work with a chauffeur in tow, from his windmill-powered home. I just wish someone would pay me a hundred grand a year for fatuous advice.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    edited July 2016
    TOPPING said:

    Listening to Trump's Chief Policy Adviser the pitch is the same as the Brexiters'. The world is out of control and run by the elite; it's time to take back control.

    You'll offend people on here saying that. Trump is clearly Bad Brexit like Farage, not Good Brexit like Hannan.
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    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?

    Join the Labour party ....

    Now that would be a nightmare.....unless I paid £25 to get Jezza re-elected.
    You wouldn't even have had to paid - there are Facebook and crowdfunding sites clearly intended to pay the £25 for you...
    Is it too late? Can I still do my bit to ensure the continued glory of Kim Jong Jez?
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr PB,

    "If the liberal left didn't have a habit for getting overworked by every little stupid thing in the world then we would not be in this position."

    Hyperbole is the stock-in-trade of the Jezzarites too. No one is ambivalent, they are either comrades or Nazis. They don't differentiate between LDs and the National Front. As was said earlier, they are always the boy who cries Wolf.

    When you are seventeen, you see the world in black and white, and some people never grow up.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    rcs1000 said:

    If Trump wins and breaks NATO will the British join the EU Army?

    In your dreams.
    Donald Trump could presage the end of NATO. In that circumstance, I would (a) be fully understanding of our continental neighbours pooling their military forces; and (b) be supportive of a defensive alliance with the EU.
    One imagines if the EU were in a position to defend itself without relying on massive US defence spending then this wouldn't be an issue. A lot of people in the US are getting sick of European nations freeloading. Even I don't think it is right that Germany are able to get away with defence spending at 1% of GDP without being kicked out of NATO.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The irony is that Trump's comments are in line with a lot of the Left in this country.

    Protectionist - check
    Isolationist - check

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.
    I was thinking more along the lines that the Left in the country thinks the US is a bully that has no right to lecture the rest of the world about democracy and the such like. But your points are very valid.

    I suspect Trump is just positioning himself to exert more spending from Europe on defence - and I don't blame him.
    That's my take on it too. The US spends more on military bands than most EU countries pay into NATO.

    They're freeloading - and if they're serious about keeping Russia at bay, well they need to put their money where their mouth is.
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    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819

    rcs1000 said:

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.

    Trump or no Trump, I doubt Putin would expect a military response to an incursion in Estonia even today. What constrains Putin is his analysis of his own and his country's interests, not tough words from the US President.
    Estonia is a NATO state and EU member , and a thriving democracy. If there was no military response to an invasion then NATO and the EU should just close up shop. An invasion of Estonia is an invasion of all NATO states - there is no getting around the fact that we are obligated to defend all NATO members militarily if needed.

    I think the Baltic states are safe - Putin is no madmen, he isn't going to take a punt on global war just to gain some old territory. Non EU /NATO states however are at much higher risk, as NATO is able to shy away from those invasions.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    It won't be a classic military invasion. It will be what Putin has mastered elsewhere. Does Article 5 cover rioting Russophones ? Then if the riots start burning property ? Then low grade terrorism ? The high grade terrorism against Baltic state forces ? Does Article 5 cover internal dissent ? Then elected committees of rioters declare autonomy and humanitarian aid conveys of " Patriots " start crossing the Russian Border. And all during the months this is unfolding Trump is saying. " Of course I stand by article 5 but it doesn't apply here. " Then he flies to Moscow to mediate and comes back with a trade deal. It will be a black comedy version of the Jim Hacker " Button? " scene.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    Patrick said:

    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    JackW said:

    Patrick said:

    I like your nightmares. Can I have one too please?

    Join the Labour party ....

    Now that would be a nightmare.....unless I paid £25 to get Jezza re-elected.
    You wouldn't even have had to paid - there are Facebook and crowdfunding sites clearly intended to pay the £25 for you...
    Is it too late? Can I still do my bit to ensure the continued glory of Kim Jong Jez?
    Sadly not, 5pm yesterday was the deadline.

    The wording of some of the sites was cute, though:

    "Sometimes if you just had £25 to help towards something important it would make all the difference. There are many people who could probably spare £25 for someone who needs it much more than they do. This group is about bringing those categories of people together. Don’t think of it as begging, just think of it as direct socialism"
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    ToryJim said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    From Red Box email - WTF?

    "I am not making this up, I promise. In the weeks before polling day last year the deputy prime minister spent several days, and almost £8,000 of party funds, starring in a shot-for-shot re-creation of the video for I Really Like You by Carly Rae Jepsen, the Canadian singer."

    I'm sorry what? I always thought Clegg had the advantage over the rest of his party of being sane and Oh. Sadly I was mistaken.
    According to a LD staffer - they hoped to show him in a light-hearted way and hoped it'd go viral. That was a lucky escape. I honestly can't get my head around some of these *ideas*. The EdStone still wins hands down.
    I see your EdStone and raise you William Hague in a baseball cap.

    To be serious, these people infest politics. Two backfiring stunts from Gordon Brown: the trip to Iraq, after he'd won because he was not Tony Blair, and having Mrs Thatcher round for tea. David Cameron cycling to work with a chauffeur in tow, from his windmill-powered home. I just wish someone would pay me a hundred grand a year for fatuous advice.
    Oh my, the baseball cap. Forgotten that. Still, could've been worse - if he'd worn it backwards :open_mouth:
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207

    I'm continually surprised by all the Brexit fans on here who are sniffy about Trump's views on foreign policy.

    The closest analogy I can think of is Scottish nationalists who want independence, but only within the safety of EU. They want Brexit, but only under Pax Americana.

    Not really. I think it's one reason why we need our own nuclear deterrent. I suppose the EU has France and if Russia did try it on I'm sure the French, Germans and Italians would be up for the fight...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Lowlander said:

    The Royal Navy's woes continue.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3700175/British-nuclear-submarine-forced-dock-Gibraltar-crashing-merchant-vessel-training-mission-Med.html

    Although the DM has a strange definition of "undamaged" judging from the picture.

    I think the merchant ship was undamaged, not the sub!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    rcs1000 said:

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.

    Trump or no Trump, I doubt Putin would expect a military response to an incursion in Estonia even today. What constrains Putin is his analysis of his own and his country's interests, not tough words from the US President.
    Estonia is a NATO state and EU member , and a thriving democracy. If there was no military response to an invasion then NATO and the EU should just close up shop. An invasion of Estonia is an invasion of all NATO states - there is no getting around the fact that we are obligated to defend all NATO members militarily if needed.

    I think the Baltic states are safe - Putin is no madmen, he isn't going to take a punt on global war just to gain some old territory. Non EU /NATO states however are at much higher risk, as NATO is able to shy away from those invasions.
    The question is, when is an invasion an invasion? It's something subject to a lot of political fudge if needed, especially with the tactics of deniability being honed by Russia. I think in practice we'd just ramp up the sanctions.

    As you said, Putin isn't a madman so it's highly hypothetical. Something like this could only happen after a chain of other events that are themselves unlikely.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    rcs1000 said:

    Of course, the irony is that by saying you wouldn't defend Estonia, for instance, you encourage Putin's Russia - which is suffering from the low oil price and the fact that the Europeans can now buy gas from Australia, Qatar and the US - to invade. Your desire to avoid entanglements ultimately encourages them.

    Trump or no Trump, I doubt Putin would expect a military response to an incursion in Estonia even today. What constrains Putin is his analysis of his own and his country's interests, not tough words from the US President.
    Estonia is a NATO state and EU member , and a thriving democracy. If there was no military response to an invasion then NATO and the EU should just close up shop. An invasion of Estonia is an invasion of all NATO states - there is no getting around the fact that we are obligated to defend all NATO members militarily if needed.

    I think the Baltic states are safe - Putin is no madmen, he isn't going to take a punt on global war just to gain some old territory. Non EU /NATO states however are at much higher risk, as NATO is able to shy away from those invasions.
    If the Baltic states upped their collective defence expenditure from 1% of GDP to the minimum 2% of GDP there wouldn't be much of a threat from Putin, US sabre-rattling or not. That's the basic issue here, of the 28 EU nations, only four spend more than 2% of GDP on defence and two of those are a consequence of a shrinking economy, Portugal and Greece, leaving just the UK and France. It isn't right that our defence spending guarantees the safety of the rest of Europe, I'm sure the French feel the same and undoubtedly the US for whom Europe is pretty far away and has been pursuing an agenda which is not to their benefit.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    CD13 said:

    Mr PB,

    "If the liberal left didn't have a habit for getting overworked by every little stupid thing in the world then we would not be in this position."

    Hyperbole is the stock-in-trade of the Jezzarites too. No one is ambivalent, they are either comrades or Nazis. They don't differentiate between LDs and the National Front. As was said earlier, they are always the boy who cries Wolf.

    When you are seventeen, you see the world in black and white, and some people never grow up.

    I switched Sky off for most of the last two days - they went on and on about Melania Trump's speech. I really couldn't give a toss if it included a dozen words of apple pie from eight years ago.

    It's media bubble stuff like makes me roll my eyes and ignore them.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Miss Plato, must agree. Not a Farron fan, but it was a shade unnecessary.
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