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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The methods used by the big unions to get Ed Milliband elec

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  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Indeed, Mr. Jessop. It does seem the tyre problem *may* (with luck) be easier to fix than could be the case.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369

    I can see that accuing rights on the basis of average hours worked over 13 weeks would run the risk of service companies reducing hours on a regular basis, or hiring and firing regularly to prevent to prevent those rights being accrued.

    If Labour want to regain votes that have been leaking to NOTA in its variations then a clear manifesto commitment to ending these abuses would be a vote winner. Even Orange Bookers like me would see the justice of a rule change.

    Alternatively, put MPs on zero hours contracts and see how they like it. It would save a bundle on Gordon Browns salary.


    DavidL said:



    I have spoken out against zero hour contracts on here before. They are an abuse of a dominant market position and they undermine employment law in a way that is completely unacceptable.

    The problem is how you can effectively legislate against them without completely undermining freedom of contract and interfering with part time work.

    I suggest a starting point should be that rights should accrue on the basis of the hours actually worked over the last 4 or 13 weeks regardless of what the contract says; that those employed for more than, say, a month, will be deemed to have the right to the number of hours worked in that month (or at least a proportion of them) and those that work exclusively for one organisation for a qualifying period should be deemed to be employees of that organisation whether they technically work for an agency or not.

    This has been an increasing problem for the best part of 10 years now and it is shameful that the last government did not seek to address the gross unfairness that results. I can only conclude that they were frightened of looking to be in the hands of the unions.

    I was involved in the Temporary and Agency Workers Bill, originally a PMB backed by, cough, UNITE, which tried to address this. The whips did indeed lean on us to oppose it (I was a PPS at the time) but I supported it anyway, not because UNITE asked me to but because it seemed a genuine problem for the reasons DavidL and Fox identify. The government eventually conceded it and we got the Bill. I must admit I've lost track of what happened next, since I've been less close to politics for the last three years. Did it prove ineffective, or was it watered down by the new government?

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    How much more help does Ed need?

    @LabourList: "Time to show the anti trade union brigade the door", says Mark Seddon http://labli.st/14MSPfv
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :^ )

    "The Washington Post has got sniffy in its report on the National Security Agency’s bugging row, calling The Guardian, which broke the story about Edward Snowden, “small and underweight, roughly the size of the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette”. Perhaps the Post, once called “Pravda on the Potomac”, is still smarting about The Guardian’s anti-Bush letter-writing campaign in 2004, which irritated so many voters on the margins in Ohio that the election swung to the sitting Republican President.

    diary@thetimes.co.uk | @timesdiary
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    antifrank said:

    Addendum: Labour would be much improved by having a few more horny-handed sons and daughters of toil in Parliament. Union entryism is to be encouraged if it would have that result.

    Unions probably have their sons and daughters...and they are also married to Harriet Harman.
    And the office manager of a shadow cabinet minister (the candidate they pushed in Falkirk) is so typical in terms of new candidates profile, isn't it?
    Plato said:

    @DavidL
    Perhaps we need to glance back at Militant and see what was going on back then/compare-contrast to now. Len is certainly as far left as they were back then, and now runs the biggest union in the country.
    .

    Len was the "right wing" candidate in Unite election....the opponent was from Socialist Workers Party


  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    tim said:

    How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter? As to the infra red signature, aren't a lot of them going smaller scale to get round it.
    IIRC from a single 1000w light you can nett 0.8kg every 12/13 weeks or so
    Not often that I agree with Tim, but legalise and tax it.

    Piece on R4 about Ofgem calling for a crackdown on electricity theft. Primarily cannabis farms, which is generally done by stealing and bypassing before it gets to the meter.
    Is Ofgem just howling at the moon? If utility co's could stop it they would.

    Why would they stop it voluntarily if it increases usage and therefore their income? Many unfortunate saps pay the enhanced bill for months before realising.

    Whether the utilities can do anything about this depends on the data that they collect. I'm not sure they'll have the data to do this.

    Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-go-hitech-to-find-cannabis-farms-26502055.html
    "How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter?"

    Yep, you are right in that circumstance. Others have been arrested for using their own electricity, or stealing neighbours' power after the meter, which increases their bills.

    Small scale growing is less efficient and more costly. Do you have any evidence that they are going smaller-scale?
    What do you think those police helicopters with infra red cameras are doing during the night all over the country?
    Did you miss the bit where I said:
    "Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well."

    This does not mean that there is increased small-scale use.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    Roger said:

    @Carlotta
    Strange comment from SS. If he looked at his own polls two years out from '97 '01 and '05 the opposition party was at least 10% BEHIND!

    ICM Guardian April 1995
    Con: 26
    Lab: 51

    Opposition party 25 points AHEAD.....
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    antifrank said:

    Addendum: Labour would be much improved by having a few more horny-handed sons and daughters of toil in Parliament. Union entryism is to be encouraged if it would have that result.

    But where would they come from ? Increasingly there is a smaller base for shoopfloor candidates to come from. Labour's union base is more and more public sector.

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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Mark Seddon is the former editor of Tribune, a former left wing NEC member who went to NY to work for Al Jazeera. He also usually complains about being left out by the NEC panels for every late selection he wants to contest.
    Scott_P said:

    How much more help does Ed need?

    @LabourList: "Time to show the anti trade union brigade the door", says Mark Seddon http://labli.st/14MSPfv

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    I must be half-asleep. I can't see this is a problem for Miliband.

    How many people are aware of how Miliband was elected, apart from us daft anoraks? How many people care?

    The tories have no chance of causing him any damage with the claim: 'Miliband in hoc to the unions'. Its what the ordinary Joe thinks anyway (if he thinks about it all).

    I very much doubt 99% of voters could spot Lord Ashcroft in a line-up or find Belize on a map, but by mentioning 'Ashcrofts Millions' several thousand times - voters were led to believe that he was some James Bond Baddy who bankrolled the last election alng with Uncle Rupert.

    Anyone who actually knew the facts - knew it was rubbish, but that's the whole point of the rhetoric and Labour are usually much more ruthless when deploying misinformation than the Tories.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,017
    Utility companies probably find it more efficient to put up with the losses and then recharge the rest of us for the lost revenue. Hence the thieves are stealing from all of us, and the power companies have little incentive to do anything about it.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It's the job of the unions to represent their members (which is why Bob Crow is a successful union leader: Tube staff do pretty well)

    Nick am really not convinced here.

    The Tube drivers do well because the RMT/ASLEF are controlling unions with a monopoly position in a public service where withdrawal of labour can cause significant disruption.

    I suspect that a more constructive union leader than Bob Crow could obtain a better result for his members at less disruption for the public. The impression I get - only from press reports - is that he blows up and threatens to strike at virtually any opportunity, which doesn't seem a viable long-term negotiating stance.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    From Peter Kellner in the Times - this warmed the cockles of my heart. The pendulum has swung.

    " We asked people about their ideal society. Would the government do less and tax less, do more and tax more, or keep the current balance? In the three countries with centre-right governments — Britain, Germany and Sweden — big majorities want the status quo or smaller government.

    In Britain and Germany, support for more tax-and-spend is remarkably low: 13 per cent and 11 respectively. No wonder Britain’s Labour Party and Germany’s Social Democrats now emphasise financial prudence more than social ambition. But it’s not just their policy they have to get right: it’s their broader reputation. As long as voters think that their heart is still set on higher taxes and greater spending, they will struggle to return to power.

    Parties seldom plan more than one election ahead. Our findings suggest that centre-left parties in all four countries — and, by extension, across the developed world — need to rethink their long-term vision as well as their short-term tactics. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article3806422.ece
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Good on you Nick,

    Unions are quite popular when they stick up for their members terms and conditions, much less so when they get bored of this and only take interest in politics. This is as true of the BMA as it is of UNITE.

    I am not directly involved with the zero hours issue in my hospital, but work with these staff every day. Their lives are being blighted by this, with the conscietious ones hardest hit. The "Cant be arsed" will be the only ones left, doing the bare minimum or even less. It is very hard to run an operating list efficiently when the porters go AWOL, but this does not affect the service companys profits.

    Nothing wrong with Unions when they stick to their day job. I have no problem with the unions role in the Labour party, though with the weakness of them outside the public sector they do have distorting effects on policy. Trade Unions started in the private sector and need a revival there, but bosses prefer to keep unemployment and immigration high than treat their workers properly.

    I can see that accuing rights on the basis of average hours worked over 13 weeks would run the risk of service companies reducing hours on a regular basis, or hiring and firing regularly to prevent to prevent those rights being accrued.

    If Labour want to regain votes that have been leaking to NOTA in its variations then a clear manifesto commitment to ending these abuses would be a vote winner. Even Orange Bookers like me would see the justice of a rule change.

    Alternatively, put MPs on zero hours contracts and see how they like it. It would save a bundle on Gordon Browns salary.


    DavidL said:



    I have spoken out against zero hour contracts on here before. They are an abuse of a dominant market position and they undermine employment law in a way that is completely unacceptable.

    The problem is how you can effectively legislate against them without completely undermining freedom of contract and interfering with part time work.

    I suggest a starting point should be that rights should accrue on the basis of the hours actually worked over the last 4 or 13 weeks regardless of what the contract says; that those employed for more than, say, a month, will be deemed to have the right to the number of hours worked in that month (or at least a proportion of them) and those that work exclusively for one organisation for a qualifying period should be deemed to be employees of that organisation whether they technically work for an agency or not.

    This has been an increasing problem for the best part of 10 years now and it is shameful that the last government did not seek to address the gross unfairness that results. I can only conclude that they were frightened of looking to be in the hands of the unions.

    I was involved in the Temporary and Agency Workers Bill, originally a PMB backed by, cough, UNITE, which tried to address this. The whips did indeed lean on us to oppose it (I was a PPS at the time) but I supported it anyway, not because UNITE asked me to but because it seemed a genuine problem for the reasons DavidL and Fox identify. The government eventually conceded it and we got the Bill. I must admit I've lost track of what happened next, since I've been less close to politics for the last three years. Did it prove ineffective, or was it watered down by the new government?

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Charles said:

    It's the job of the unions to represent their members (which is why Bob Crow is a successful union leader: Tube staff do pretty well)

    Nick am really not convinced here.

    The Tube drivers do well because the RMT/ASLEF are controlling unions with a monopoly position in a public service where withdrawal of labour can cause significant disruption.

    I suspect that a more constructive union leader than Bob Crow could obtain a better result for his members at less disruption for the public. The impression I get - only from press reports - is that he blows up and threatens to strike at virtually any opportunity, which doesn't seem a viable long-term negotiating stance.
    Bob Crow has done an enormous amount to benefit his current members - and driverless train manufacturers...
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Mark Seddon is the former editor of Tribune, a former left wing NEC member who went to NY to work for Al Jazeera. He also usually complains about being left out by the NEC panels for every late selection he wants to contest.

    Scott_P said:

    How much more help does Ed need?

    @LabourList: "Time to show the anti trade union brigade the door", says Mark Seddon http://labli.st/14MSPfv

    When some like Seddon wanted to expel Progress from Labour = it said a great deal to past Blairites like me.
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Have the Times published a complete list of CLPs under special measures? Or was it just a tease? I would really like to have it.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    Morris Dancer,

    I recognize that launching Ed Balls into the heart of the sun is a project of national importance and was giving some thought to the Red Mist problem. I think I have a solution:
    There are two related problems.

    1. Excessive G forces in the barrel, reducing Balls to a pool of red sludge before he even exits the muzzle; and
    2. Excessive muzzle velocity in the atmospshere, so that an even intact Balls would explode spectacularly upon leaving the muzzle.

    What you need is to construct the Space Cannon as a very, very long barreled supergun, with the muzzle at an altitude of over 100,000 feet. The Balls projectile could be more gradually accelerated up to the needed 30 or 40 km/s and, if prior deep frozen, would not experience G forces high enough to cause ‘sludging’. A normal rifle bullet accelerates at about 62,000G – but the Balls iceblock could be accelerated at a brisk but survivable few tens of Gs. And since the muzzle is at high altitude the Balls bullet would only suffer minimal hypersonic shock waves as it fully exited the upper reaches of the atmosphere on its way to the sun.

    Ben Nevis is our highest mountain, the government is looking for ‘shovel ready’ investment projects, Scotland needs a boost and we all need cheering up - so it is manifestly obvious that the Queen’s Speech should have included a section on the construction of a supergun up the side of Ben Nevis and beyond from which we could do the necessary. It would, of course, be reusable and indeed the entire PLP could be lined up for launch and the greater national benefit.

    What’s not to like?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Not paying much attention to the Lions tour, but it seems Gatland's gone for a Wales + a few others approach to the starting lineup: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23141552

    10 Welsh, 3 Irish, 2 English.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Have the Times published a complete list of CLPs under special measures? Or was it just a tease? I would really like to have it.

    They haven't - but I've tweeted the reporter and asked her for the details.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Patrick, I appreciate your commitment and insight for this important work.

    Sadly, when the Coalition came to power the plan for a small fleet of Death Stars was not approved due to budget constraints. I rather like the idea of a mountain-based space cannon, although I would prefer construction to wait until after the Scots vote to remain British (I will not risk such my man cannon falling into Scottish hands).
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    Thanks

    Bethnal Green and Poplar will surely be in it. They are under special measurers by ages. I wouldn't be surprised to see something else from that area

    Stoke Central was under special measures. Warley too (and it's more surprising. It's not clear what the problem was there).
    Obviously, many Birmingham CLPs like Ladywood, Hall Green, Hodge Hill...they can barely run Cllr selections without the NEC being called in some of the wards there...you know the Khans and the Hussains battling it out with all the extended family in hands.

    The preview of the article also mentioned both Oldham CLPs. Unsurprising too.

    Slough was put into special measures last year. They were deselecting the council leader and other leading cabinet members.
    Plato said:

    Have the Times published a complete list of CLPs under special measures? Or was it just a tease? I would really like to have it.

    They haven't - but I've tweeted the reporter and asked her for the details.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    How much more help does Ed need?

    @LabourList: "Time to show the anti trade union brigade the door", says Mark Seddon http://labli.st/14MSPfv

    Guido has some cracking quotes from Eric Joyce - Unite's lawyers have been busy sending him letters.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Mr. Patrick, I appreciate your commitment and insight for this important work.

    Sadly, when the Coalition came to power the plan for a small fleet of Death Stars was not approved due to budget constraints. I rather like the idea of a mountain-based space cannon, although I would prefer construction to wait until after the Scots vote to remain British (I will not risk such my man cannon falling into Scottish hands).

    Mountain based? This is surely the best location - sadly though in the UK it was just a set!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2RoBN930ZY

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    Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    edited July 2013
    Take a butchers on Ebay at the amount of hydroponic led kits (which produce less heat) on sale.
    Why pay £20 for a 2 gram bag when you can grow more than even a heavy user can smoke in a 1 square metre grow tent in your spare bedroom? And you can flog your surplus to a few mates. I don't do this, but know a few peeps that do.

    tim said:

    How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter? As to the infra red signature, aren't a lot of them going smaller scale to get round it.
    IIRC from a single 1000w light you can nett 0.8kg every 12/13 weeks or so
    Not often that I agree with Tim, but legalise and tax it.

    Piece on R4 about Ofgem calling for a crackdown on electricity theft. Primarily cannabis farms, which is generally done by stealing and bypassing before it gets to the meter.
    Is Ofgem just howling at the moon? If utility co's could stop it they would.

    Why would they stop it voluntarily if it increases usage and therefore their income? Many unfortunate saps pay the enhanced bill for months before realising.

    Whether the utilities can do anything about this depends on the data that they collect. I'm not sure they'll have the data to do this.

    Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-go-hitech-to-find-cannabis-farms-26502055.html
    "How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter?"

    Yep, you are right in that circumstance. Others have been arrested for using their own electricity, or stealing neighbours' power after the meter, which increases their bills.

    Small scale growing is less efficient and more costly. Do you have any evidence that they are going smaller-scale?
    What do you think those police helicopters with infra red cameras are doing during the night all over the country?
    Did you miss the bit where I said:
    "Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well."

    This does not mean that there is increased small-scale use.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091

    Thanks

    Bethnal Green and Poplar will surely be in it. They are under special measurers by ages. I wouldn't be surprised to see something else from that area

    Stoke Central was under special measures. Warley too (and it's more surprising. It's not clear what the problem was there).
    Obviously, many Birmingham CLPs like Ladywood, Hall Green, Hodge Hill...they can barely run Cllr selections without the NEC being called in some of the wards there...you know the Khans and the Hussains battling it out with all the extended family in hands.

    The preview of the article also mentioned both Oldham CLPs. Unsurprising too.

    Slough was put into special measures last year. They were deselecting the council leader and other leading cabinet members.

    Plato said:

    Have the Times published a complete list of CLPs under special measures? Or was it just a tease? I would really like to have it.

    They haven't - but I've tweeted the reporter and asked her for the details.
    That's another side to the issue: not just when they went into special measures, but how long they remained so.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited July 2013
    OGH is far too modest to mention (or link) to the article about the UNITE problem that was written back in 2009.

    http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/21/is-truelabour-right-to-worry-about-unite/#comments
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    Scafell Pike?
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    Many Unite candidates are not really left wing. For ex in Hampstead they apparently wanted to back Fiona Millar (Campbell) before she pulled out. In some cases, also because the regional committee (which is the body usually making the nomination) is often less left wing than the national leadership.
    In some selections you could see some unions nominating candidate X while the national leader of said union being listed in the endorsement page of candidate Y.
    It happened in Croydon North with GMB nominating Steve Reed while the Gen Sec was backing Shawcross.
    tim said:

    Have the Times published a complete list of CLPs under special measures? Or was it just a tease? I would really like to have it.

    No, I guess because some of it goes back over a decade.
    I see that the Tories think Labours candidate in Hastings is an entryist Militant.
    Currently in deep cover working as a business adviser to Lord Sugar.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,021
    New Anthony Wells article on house effects of opinion poll companies:

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7744
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Re: Unite et al

    It is of course usually easier to subvert another similar organisation and take control, than start a new organisation.

    However, Unite and its associates could: withdraw all funding from Labour, form a new party (like SWP) and try its luck at the ballot box. This would probably split Labour and most likely fail for many of the reasons that the post-WW2 UK Communist party failed.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/profile/57/AndreaParma_82

    Are Welsh Labour also under the same rules as the English CLP?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Plato said:

    Charles said:

    It's the job of the unions to represent their members (which is why Bob Crow is a successful union leader: Tube staff do pretty well)

    Nick am really not convinced here.

    The Tube drivers do well because the RMT/ASLEF are controlling unions with a monopoly position in a public service where withdrawal of labour can cause significant disruption.

    I suspect that a more constructive union leader than Bob Crow could obtain a better result for his members at less disruption for the public. The impression I get - only from press reports - is that he blows up and threatens to strike at virtually any opportunity, which doesn't seem a viable long-term negotiating stance.
    Bob Crow has done an enormous amount to benefit his current members - and driverless train manufacturers...
    Except that Boris has quietly dropped the idea of driverless trains for the forseeable future - hadn't you noticed?

    I'm not really in favour of monopolies throwing their weight about in any context, but my point was that Crow has got his members unusually high pay and job security (you have to have a really, really good reason to sack a Tube driver or they'll sue the pants off you and/or strike forever) while showing a marked indifference to what the public thinks. That's obviously a different role to running a national political party, and both arms of the Labour movement are more or less aware of it even though we grumble about each other.

    Charles could be right that a mild and reasonable union leader would get better results, but it's not obvious to me that in today's dog-eat-dog world it pays off for workers to be mild and reasonable all the time.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Scafell Pike could work. Nice scenery about, too.

    Miss Plato, I don't think they've ever bettered the villainous hideout of a hollowed-out volcano.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    When looking for a lost kitty a year or two ago - I was door-knocking on an estate in Worthing and one house had all the curtains closed mid-afternoon and the smell of cannabis was knocker even from outside the front door. How anyone missed a semi like this is beyond me - I assume locals were also customers!

    Take a butchers on Ebay at the amount of hydroponic led kits (which produce less heat) on sale.
    Why pay £20 for a 2 gram bag when you can grow more than even a heavy user can smoke in a 1 square metre grow tent in your spare bedroom? And you can flog your surplus to a few mates. I don't do this, but know a few peeps that do.

    tim said:

    How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter? As to the infra red signature, aren't a lot of them going smaller scale to get round it.
    IIRC from a single 1000w light you can nett 0.8kg every 12/13 weeks or so
    Not often that I agree with Tim, but legalise and tax it.

    Piece on R4 about Ofgem calling for a crackdown on electricity theft. Primarily cannabis farms, which is generally done by stealing and bypassing before it gets to the meter.
    Is Ofgem just howling at the moon? If utility co's could stop it they would.

    Why would they stop it voluntarily if it increases usage and therefore their income? Many unfortunate saps pay the enhanced bill for months before realising.

    Whether the utilities can do anything about this depends on the data that they collect. I'm not sure they'll have the data to do this.

    Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-go-hitech-to-find-cannabis-farms-26502055.html
    "How can it increase their income if it's nicked from in front of the meter?"

    Yep, you are right in that circumstance. Others have been arrested for using their own electricity, or stealing neighbours' power after the meter, which increases their bills.

    Small scale growing is less efficient and more costly. Do you have any evidence that they are going smaller-scale?
    What do you think those police helicopters with infra red cameras are doing during the night all over the country?
    Did you miss the bit where I said:
    "Much better is the approach of using infra-red cameras from cars and spotter helicopters / planes - the increased heat shows up particularly well."

    This does not mean that there is increased small-scale use.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Not paying much attention to the Lions tour, but it seems Gatland's gone for a Wales + a few others approach to the starting lineup: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23141552

    10 Welsh, 3 Irish, 2 English.

    Without a Scot in the team and full of my celtic cousins this team should be remamed "The Cymru and Odds and Sods Dragons

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091

    Scafell Pike could work. Nice scenery about, too.

    Miss Plato, I don't think they've ever bettered the villainous hideout of a hollowed-out volcano.

    Scafell Pike is one of the dreariest peaks in the Lake District. It really does not have much to commend it aside fro a few feet over its neighbour. The same can be said for Ben Nevis: one of the Highland's worse mountains, although the ridge walk looks fun - I want to do it one day.

    I've always enjoyed Snowdon, though. There're so many different routes up it, all with their own character, and you can have a cup of tea at the top.

    Please despoil the Ben or Scafell Pike with your mammoth erection!
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    OGH is far too modest to mention (or link) to the article about the UNITE problem that was written back in 2009.

    http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/21/is-truelabour-right-to-worry-about-unite/#comments

    Indeed!

    “If the Conservative party had a single donor called UnitePLC that provided 40% of its donations, provided the CEO of the Conservative party, had its Head of PR setup websites for the Conservatives, hired people like Derek McPoison to run smear campaigns, unfairly influenced the process whereby many of its UnitePLC employees become Conservative MPs through donations and Uniteplc block votes in CLPs….. we would all be outraged at the infiltration of the Conservative party by a single company. But if we just changed the word Conservative to Labour in the above and deleted “plc” we arrive at the state of the Labour party.”
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 912
    Ian Robertson speaks for us all:

    "You just wonder if they got a lucky bag and picked some names out. The Lions won the first Test and made eight changes to their squad. The Wallabies won the second and probably won't make any changes. The Lions lose by one point and there are six changes in the team and three guys on the bench who were nowhere near the team for the second Test. I was convinced Brian O'Driscoll should have been named as captain. It's catastrophic leaving him out. He's still one of the top centres in world rugby. He's a fantastic guy and has been on four tours and knows it all inside out. It's a massive mistake."
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    If people want to grow a "bit of personal" and pay the leccy bill then frankly on balance it should be decriminalised. Stops funds to the bigger dealers.

    However an entire house full of plants staffed by illegal Vietnamese and powered by ripped off electricity is not on frankly - to the gallows.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @NickPalmer

    "Except that Boris has quietly dropped the idea of driverless trains for the forseeable future - hadn't you noticed?"

    Perhaps we should ask Sunil if the driverless train seems a more than adequate metaphor for the present Labour party ?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    If people want to grow a "bit of personal" and pay the leccy bill then frankly on balance it should be decriminalised. Stops funds to the bigger dealers.

    However an entire house full of plants staffed by illegal Vietnamese and powered by ripped off electricity is not on frankly - to the gallows.


    How many plants legal and how many plants illegal?
    Er - if you have 9 plants that would be more than enough - I'd imagine you'd end up giving some away...

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Abu Qatada is due out on Sunday - fingers crossed.

    Well done to Mrs May and Co for this one.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2013



    Charles could be right that a mild and reasonable union leader would get better results, but it's not obvious to me that in today's dog-eat-dog world it pays off for workers to be mild and reasonable all the time.

    It's a balance.

    The power of the union comes from a credible threat to strike, not from strikes themselves.

    If management form the view that 'they are going to strike anyway' then they have no incentive to be generous in the initial proposal.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Service PMI hit out of the park - 56.9 v 54.6 expected and 54.9 previous

    "UK service sector growth accelerated to its highest level since March 2011 during June as incoming new business rose at a rate unmatched for six years. The sharp increase in new business led to a marked rise in backlogs of work, and encouraged companies to take on additional staff to the strongest degree since August 2007...

    “The buoyant picture for June means the economy is on course to expand by at least 0.5% in the second quarter, with more growth to come. New orders and job creation across all sectors are now rising at the fastest rates for almost six years, led by the vast services economy, boding well for robust growth momentum to be sustained as we move into the second half of the year"

    http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/d8b5be871614424e84c8dcd2e5573427
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited July 2013

    Plato said:

    Charles said:

    It's the job of the unions to represent their members (which is why Bob Crow is a successful union leader: Tube staff do pretty well)

    Nick am really not convinced here.

    The Tube drivers do well because the RMT/ASLEF are controlling unions with a monopoly position in a public service where withdrawal of labour can cause significant disruption.

    I suspect that a more constructive union leader than Bob Crow could obtain a better result for his members at less disruption for the public. The impression I get - only from press reports - is that he blows up and threatens to strike at virtually any opportunity, which doesn't seem a viable long-term negotiating stance.
    Bob Crow has done an enormous amount to benefit his current members - and driverless train manufacturers...
    Except that Boris has quietly dropped the idea of driverless trains for the forseeable future - hadn't you noticed?

    I'm not really in favour of monopolies throwing their weight about in any context, but my point was that Crow has got his members unusually high pay and job security (you have to have a really, really good reason to sack a Tube driver or they'll sue the pants off you and/or strike forever) while showing a marked indifference to what the public thinks. That's obviously a different role to running a national political party, and both arms of the Labour movement are more or less aware of it even though we grumble about each other.

    Charles could be right that a mild and reasonable union leader would get better results, but it's not obvious to me that in today's dog-eat-dog world it pays off for workers to be mild and reasonable all the time.
    Bob Crow certainly gets results, certainly I'd look very hard into driverless trains if I was in Boris' position.

    I suppose he doesn't want a fight with Crow though given how important the tube is to London as a whole. It is not a good position to be in however, cowed to a union baron.
    This is precisely why Thatcher had to destroy Red Robbo and Scargill.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Surging services growth pushes UK all-sector PMI to highest since March 2011. UK GDP set for at least +0.5% in Q2 twitpic.com/d0jq20

    Thanks to BenM for the tweet.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,021
    Sky News:

    "Egyptian president will resign or be sacked":

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110850/egyptian-president-will-resign-or-be-sacked
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Surging services growth pushes UK all-sector PMI to highest since March 2011. UK GDP set for at least +0.5% in Q2 twitpic.com/d0jq20

    Thanks to BenM for the tweet.

    I blame Osborne...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    Profit making schools will bring chaos and cut standards

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/profit-making-schools-will-bring-chaos-and-cut-standards-8683763.html

    Is that the Messiah Gove in that photo or a cane toad auditioning for Mad Men?

    Has someone told Sweden their schools are in chaos and cutting standards ?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,021
    "European stock markets have taken a tumble as the survival of Portugal's government is thrown into doubt.

    Portuguese share prices plummeted 6% in early trading on Wednesday and other major bourses, including the FTSE 100, fell sharply amid growing uncertainty that the recession-hit country's bailout reform agenda can remain on track.

    Foreign Minister Paulo Portas resigned on Tuesday night, a day after the shock departure of Finance Minister Vitor Gaspar."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1110946/markets-fall-amid-portugal-political-crisis
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Re: Zero Hours Contracts.

    We have probably entered a new era of methods of employment. If we look back to the Middle Ages, most people were self-employed or owed service (often military) to the landowners whose land they farmed or were retainers.

    The coming of the Guilds (and apprenticeships with contracts) created a newish middle class and then the industrial revolution required permanent staff with specific skills who became employed.

    Nowadays, with the advance of globalisation and fast-moving technology, the number of non-skilled employment opportunities has diminished, whilst people with the right skill-sets and experience have become increasingly valuable.

    At the same time countries with employment flexibility are advancing whilst others (like France) with restrictive and costly employment laws and practices are diminishing in the global context.

    In the UK, I have seen a large rise in the use of specialist contractors by many industries and the consultancy with which I am associated now has very few employees. As we serve many 'industries', it is not economic to employ all the specialists we require only at certain times. So (like using solicitors and accountants) we contract in specialists as required. In return they earn a higher hourly rate than when they were employed and our employment costs are reduced (little employer's NI)- at present it is a win-win situation. The major part of our employees are now our R&D people.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Surging services growth pushes UK all-sector PMI to highest since March 2011. UK GDP set for at least +0.5% in Q2 twitpic.com/d0jq20

    Thanks to BenM for the tweet.

    I blame Osborne...
    Whilst not wishing to count chickens before they hatch - things do seem to be on a gentle trend upwards. Those who have rubbished Osborne will no doubt complain it'd all be so much better if blah blah pet subject was implemented sooner.

    Frankly - I'm just relieved things are picking up quietly - inflation isn't going gang-busters and interest rates remain tiny. Slow and steady suits me having endured massive boom-and-bust too many times before.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,021
    edited July 2013
    "Nowadays, with the advance of globalisation and fast-moving technology, the number of non-skilled employment opportunities has diminished, whilst people with the right skill-sets and experience have become increasingly valuable."

    Explains why inequality is rising.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    Profit making schools will bring chaos and cut standards

    Yes, just like all those profit-making airlines, aircraft manufacturers, outsourcing companies, bus companies, GP practices, pathology labs, Edison schools in the US...
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 1m
    Labour's Falkirk report says contender Gregor Poynton, husb of front-bencher Gemma Doyle, recruited 11 members Jun 2012 on single £130 chque

    oooooh dear...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    tim said:

    Profit making schools will bring chaos and cut standards

    Yes, just like all those profit-making airlines, aircraft manufacturers, outsourcing companies, bus companies, GP practices, pathology labs, Edison schools in the US...
    I guess if you work for the BBC, Guardian or the Indy then profit making is an alien concept.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeSmithson

    'You make the big mistake to assume that Ed is weak.

    Just compare him with Dave who always capitulates to his right wing at the slightest sign of bother.

    Dave shouting "weak, weak weak" at EdM is a sign of his own weaknesses.'

    If capitulating and u-turning on all the key issues you've been banging on about for three years isn't weak,then I don't know what is.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Surging services growth pushes UK all-sector PMI to highest since March 2011. UK GDP set for at least +0.5% in Q2 twitpic.com/d0jq20

    Thanks to BenM for the tweet.

    I blame Osborne...
    And the prospects of Mrs Ed purchasing a new tape measure seem to become an ever more distant memory. Do you know I fear :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    tim said:

    Profit making schools will bring chaos and cut standards

    Yes, just like all those profit-making airlines, aircraft manufacturers, outsourcing companies, bus companies, GP practices, pathology labs, Edison schools in the US...
    As someone who worked for BT who was still undergoing the transition from monopoly mindset to market player in the mid 90s - the change in attitude from 'you'll get what you're given when we get around to it' to 'what can we offer to get your custom' is mind-blowing.

    If you hadn't seen it with your own eyes - its impossible to imagine the transformation - and it took at least a decade to begin to even touch 10% of the organisation, and another decade to change it fundamentally.

    It takes generational management turnover to make big steps in any direction.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,021
    We're becoming a nation of millionaires and serfs again, as traditional middle-class jobs disappear thanks to technology.

    I expect society to become a lot nastier in the future as a result, regrettably.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    https://twitpic.com/show/full/d0jsgz

    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Near 6-yr highs: UK all sector PMI shows new business growth fastest since Sep'07. Jobs growth best since Oct'07 twitpic.com/d0jsgz
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    Services PMI: blimey. If that is replicated in the Index of Services Q2 GDP will surprise way too the upside.

    I reckon ONS will be more cautious on the first estimate though.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Rumours begin to filter through that Ed has banned a former Labour campaign song :

    "Things can only get better ...."
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    JackW said:

    Not paying much attention to the Lions tour, but it seems Gatland's gone for a Wales + a few others approach to the starting lineup: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23141552

    10 Welsh, 3 Irish, 2 English.

    Without a Scot in the team and full of my celtic cousins this team should be remamed "The Cymru and Odds and Sods Dragons

    Thing is Gethin Jenkins would've started at loose head if fit and Tipiric must've been in the running for back row too.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Plato said:

    https://twitpic.com/show/full/d0jsgz

    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    Near 6-yr highs: UK all sector PMI shows new business growth fastest since Sep'07. Jobs growth best since Oct'07 twitpic.com/d0jsgz

    Any news on the job prospects of underemployed Cheshire farmers ?

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    On topic: I think Mike is looking at this through too narrow a prism. I agree with those who say this doesn't really impact much on the public consciousness; the unions aren't the bogeymen they used to be (Maggie be praised). Anyway, voters expect Labour to be the party of the unions (that's kinda the idea, right?), and if anything they tend to over-estimate the degree to which unions run the party. They're also not in the least bit interested in the way Ed M got elected, except in respect of him knifing his brother.

    However, that doesn't mean the shenanigans in Falkirk and elsewhere are without significance. That significance is internal to the Labour Party, and is about the battle within the party between those who want to make at least a nominal attempt to face up to the need for reform in the public sector and control of the deficit, and those who want to ensure they have indeed 'got their party back' by ditching the New Labour approach and returning to being unashamedly the party of vested interests. The weakness of Ed Miliband is not that he doesn't face down his opponents - as some have already pointed out, he does have a ruthless streak - but that he can't himself decide which side he is on in that battle. In the absence of any decisive, or even discernible, policy lead from the top, the unions (effectively Unite) are taking matters into their own hands.

    It's their influence on strategic direction, not the public perception of that influence, which matters.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:

    Rumours begin to filter through that Ed has banned a former Labour campaign song :

    "Things can only get better ...."

    I still think of Oh Christmas Tree not The Internationale at Labour Cnf time :^ )
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Here are some idiotic PB-Tory, always-wrong thoughts from me:

    - The Union influence of the likes of McCluskey is the biggest barrier to me voting Labour (my issue with unions is personal). Without that influence I'd consider it.
    - Ed Miliband's decision to tack to Tory economic plans will serve him well around GE2015
    - Jon Cruddas puts a bit of fear in me, and I suspect his policy agenda will be good
    - I don't think Cameron has been weak. Balancing the right wing of your party in power with a left wing coalition partner was always going to be difficult. I believe he has done well
    - Ed can't be RED and have a sensible economic plan. Fair enough. But the UNITE influence is significant because the impression is that McCluskey and co will try to hijack the economic plans if Labour gain power. Voters won't like this. If the McCluskey/Owen Jones lefty plans were popular and workable I'm sure EdM would go that way. They aren't, and he isn't. Holding this line, along with Ed Balls, will be a hard, hard slog between now and GE2015
    - I don't think EdM is weak. Kim Howells knocked it on the head talking of Labour impossibilism. EdM needs to deal with that aspect of what the Unions crave, but can't sensibly get.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Speculation mounts that Ed Balls has been admitted to hospital after chewing wasps all morning !!
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:

    As someone who worked for BT who was still undergoing the transition from monopoly mindset to market player in the mid 90s - the change in attitude from 'you'll get what you're given when we get around to it' to 'what can we offer to get your custom' is mind-blowing.

    If you hadn't seen it with your own eyes - its impossible to imagine the transformation - and it took at least a decade to begin to even touch 10% of the organisation, and another decade to change it fundamentally.

    I saw it as a customer, working in industry at the time. It was indeed quite spectacular. Of course, exactly the same arguments as are used to oppose choice and profit-making organisations in education, almost word-for-word, were deployed by the left at the time to oppose BT privatisation.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    ' his Free Schools have yet to produce one outstanding school'

    Can you tell us which Academies were outstanding two years after they had been set up?

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @Plato

    Lol.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,924
    @ Plato

    But surely the point is that UNITE is not UNITE PLC - it is a voluntary organisation with over a million members. Tory donors consist largely of a few very wealthy individuals. Labours funding might come largely from a handful of unions but there are still over 7 million union members in UK (which actually increased this year). If you include family members etc that is one huge group of people, a fact the Tories fail to grasp when they embark on another spate of union bashing. Wealthy donors provide only money - unions provide money and thousands of foot soldiers on the ground

    I realise that not every union member votes Labour and that the criticism of the way some unions act is justified but insulting union members is pretty counter-productive in my opinion.

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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Financier said:

    Re: Zero Hours Contracts.

    We have probably entered a new era of methods of employment. If we look back to the Middle Ages, most people were self-employed or owed service (often military) to the landowners whose land they farmed or were retainers.

    The coming of the Guilds (and apprenticeships with contracts) created a newish middle class and then the industrial revolution required permanent staff with specific skills who became employed.

    Nowadays, with the advance of globalisation and fast-moving technology, the number of non-skilled employment opportunities has diminished, whilst people with the right skill-sets and experience have become increasingly valuable.

    At the same time countries with employment flexibility are advancing whilst others (like France) with restrictive and costly employment laws and practices are diminishing in the global context.

    In the UK, I have seen a large rise in the use of specialist contractors by many industries and the consultancy with which I am associated now has very few employees. As we serve many 'industries', it is not economic to employ all the specialists we require only at certain times. So (like using solicitors and accountants) we contract in specialists as required. In return they earn a higher hourly rate than when they were employed and our employment costs are reduced (little employer's NI)- at present it is a win-win situation. The major part of our employees are now our R&D people.

    On a personal level, I find these pernicious. Until recently my son had a standard contract with a local company. Due to a drop off in orders, he was put on a zero hours contract. I regard this as little more than now employing him as casual labour but with the hook that if business improves, he could be given a standard contract once again. This inhibits him from looking for another employer as there is still a sense of loyalty to the old one and he regards himself as still 'employed' even though he gets no benefits from this 'employment'.

    I see the increasing use of these contracts as a means of effectively handcuffing an employee with useful skills to a company especially in a job poor market that exists at present.
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    Full all-sector PMI release:

    http://www.markit.com/assets/en/docs/commentary/markit-economics/2013/jul/UK_PMI_13_07_03.pdf

    New orders across the private sector highest since 2007.

    Economists are going to have to revise their revised estimates of GDP growth.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Blue_rog said:

    Financier said:

    Re: Zero Hours Contracts.

    We have probably entered a new era of methods of employment. If we look back to the Middle Ages, most people were self-employed or owed service (often military) to the landowners whose land they farmed or were retainers.

    The coming of the Guilds (and apprenticeships with contracts) created a newish middle class and then the industrial revolution required permanent staff with specific skills who became employed.

    Nowadays, with the advance of globalisation and fast-moving technology, the number of non-skilled employment opportunities has diminished, whilst people with the right skill-sets and experience have become increasingly valuable.

    At the same time countries with employment flexibility are advancing whilst others (like France) with restrictive and costly employment laws and practices are diminishing in the global context.

    In the UK, I have seen a large rise in the use of specialist contractors by many industries and the consultancy with which I am associated now has very few employees. As we serve many 'industries', it is not economic to employ all the specialists we require only at certain times. So (like using solicitors and accountants) we contract in specialists as required. In return they earn a higher hourly rate than when they were employed and our employment costs are reduced (little employer's NI)- at present it is a win-win situation. The major part of our employees are now our R&D people.

    On a personal level, I find these pernicious. Until recently my son had a standard contract with a local company. Due to a drop off in orders, he was put on a zero hours contract. I regard this as little more than now employing him as casual labour but with the hook that if business improves, he could be given a standard contract once again. This inhibits him from looking for another employer as there is still a sense of loyalty to the old one and he regards himself as still 'employed' even though he gets no benefits from this 'employment'.

    I see the increasing use of these contracts as a means of effectively handcuffing an employee with useful skills to a company especially in a job poor market that exists at present.
    Precisely my point - loyalty is the only commodity not measured by the bean-counters who too frequently end up in charge of strategy.

    I've seen it dozens of times - treating people like widgets doesn't work for long, invariably it takes just one person in a group to leave and the majority of the rest [usually the best workers] see that the grass can be greener and follow suit.

    Any manager who fails to spot the rot when a good employee leaves/their silent influence on others is stupid.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    You think Gove will run with this,

    Not yet.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Guido is having much fun this morning http://order-order.com/2013/07/03/labours-union-crisis-goes-to-the-top/

    "The increasing scrutiny of Labour’s relationship with militant unions is becoming a serious problem for Ed. The Times splashes on Labour taking control of 14 constituency parties after internal concerns about attempts to manipulate selections, with Unite caught red-handed trying to stitch up Ilford East. Miliband is still refusing to publish Labour’s report into Unite’s plotting in Falkirk. Until he does this story is just going to snowball…

    Eric Joyce has come out swinging, accusing Unite of threatening to sue him for talking about the allegations:

    “Unite’s middle-class political officer, Jennie Formby, has argued that Unite is desperate to hear what allegations are being made. Odd, then, that I have been for weeks receiving letters from Unite’s middle-class lawyers threatening to sue me for defamation because I’ve been doing just that. No proceedings have actually been initiated yet, mind you. I wonder why?”

    Perhaps most awkwardly of all, the unions are now pointing to this video of Miliband himself defending the right of unions to buy party membership. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w9MpCoUqHM
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    boulayboulay Posts: 4,001
    Isn't it wonderful that a Union called "Unite" is being particularly divisive....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is rather good from the DT re Egypt

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOPPqgOCYAAE9OM.jpg:large
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:

    with Unite caught red-handed trying to stitch up Ilford East.

    Ilford East doesn't exist. It's Ilford North.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    Good news regarding the economic indicators - let's hope Europe doesn't go tits up in the mean time.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    @Blue_Rog

    I fully empathise with your son's predicament.
    In his shoes I would be wondering whether his employer is market-savvy and should have been able to predict a downturn which could have been due to price or technology. Either way, the employer should have been already developing the next 'product/s.'

    Perhaps your son may need to improve his skill sets and so increase his market value and thus his options internationally.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    £ soaaars against the Euro whilst the FTSE plummets 1.3% - funny old game.

    PMQs today ? What health topic will rEd go with today ?

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Heavens above some posts have disappeared, much like the prospects of a Labour government.

    Life imitating PB.

    Hums jauntily .... Things can only get better ....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Here are the 14 CLPs currently under special measures: http://labourlist.org/2013/07/the-kafkaesque-farce-of-the-labour-party-special-measures-revisited/

    Bethnal Green and Bow
    Poplar and Limehouse
    Brentford & Isleworth
    Ealing Southall
    Falkirk West
    Feltham & Heston
    Oldham East and Saddleworth
    Oldham West and Royton
    Birmingham Hall Green
    Birmingham Hodge Hill
    Birmingham Ladywood
    Birmingham Perry Barr
    Warley
    Slough

    "That said, the news that a dozen CLPs have been placed on what effectively amounts to administrative detention for 8 years – one as long as 18 – shows us the real flaw of the “special measures” system. If it actually worked, these CLPs would have been able to exit “special measures” by now and return to normal membership processes. Yet instead they’ve spent the best party of a decade being forced to jump through byzantine hoops by the party in order to recruit members.

    Every CLP – including Falkirk West – should be asking the following questions of the party:

    - Why was my CLP placed under “special measures”? If a report was prepared by the party as part of this process, will it be made public or shared with the CLP?

    - How long has my CLP been under “special measures”?

    - How can my CLP leave “special measures”?

    Because until we know the answers to these questions, it’s impossible to know whether or not “special measures” is a proportionate response to any allegations or wrongdoing. And unless a CLP knows how to leave “special measures”, the party in these areas – finding it harder to recruit new members – could just wither and die..."
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jim Murphy piping up on Unite - any markets on whether he will be reshuffled out ?

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    All fun and games in Egypt today by the looks of it
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I've been watching S1 of the X-Files and this is just perfect - I saw the story but missed the video of the Labour councillor who is having an affair with an alien.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzvCYderVH0

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jim Murphy piping up on Unite - any markets on whether he will be reshuffled out ?

    I'll give you evens he won't be.

    Any with a real bookie ?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited July 2013
    TGOHF said:

    £ soaaars against the Euro whilst the FTSE plummets 1.3% - funny old game.

    PMQs today ? What health topic will rEd go with today ?

    Good morning. Yes Markets are suddenly on the downslope. Worries about Egypt and the rise of oil at over $100 per barrel has sounding the alarms today.

    Question of the day: Is President Obamas brain about to go into a senile stage? His antics of late are more than a little irrational.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    One is in a rather chipper mood this morning, so much so I'm minded to donate a few shillings to the Distressed Former Broxtowe Gentlemens Parliamentary Restoration Fund.

    Ah .... is it tax deductable though ?!?
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    Think Richard N is on the right lines with this one.

    The public generally won't care about the story itself.

    But it could have implications for the strategic direction of Labour, which the public will care about.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jim Murphy piping up on Unite - any markets on whether he will be reshuffled out ?

    I'll give you evens he won't be.

    Any with a real bookie ?

    Try the ones in Ilford East and Ilford West.

    Any with a real farmer ?
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    carlcarl Posts: 750

    Plato said:

    with Unite caught red-handed trying to stitch up Ilford East.

    Ilford East doesn't exist. It's Ilford North.
    Chuckle
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Trouble in Portugal:

    Two more Portuguese ministers expected to resign http://bit.ly/14PIeQz
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Many thanks Plato for the list.

    Surprised not to see Stoke in it
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408

    I can see that accuing rights on the basis of average hours worked over 13 weeks would run the risk of service companies reducing hours on a regular basis, or hiring and firing regularly to prevent to prevent those rights being accrued.

    If Labour want to regain votes that have been leaking to NOTA in its variations then a clear manifesto commitment to ending these abuses would be a vote winner. Even Orange Bookers like me would see the justice of a rule change.

    Alternatively, put MPs on zero hours contracts and see how they like it. It would save a bundle on Gordon Browns salary.


    DavidL said:



    I have spoken out against zero hour contracts on here before. They are an abuse of a dominant market position and they undermine employment law in a way that is completely unacceptable.

    The problem is how you can effectively legislate against them without completely undermining freedom of contract and interfering with part time work.

    I suggest a starting point should be that rights should accrue on the basis of the hours actually worked over the last 4 or 13 weeks regardless of what the contract says; that those employed for more than, say, a month, will be deemed to have the right to the number of hours worked in that month (or at least a proportion of them) and those that work exclusively for one organisation for a qualifying period should be deemed to be employees of that organisation whether they technically work for an agency or not.

    This has been an increasing problem for the best part of 10 years now and it is shameful that the last government did not seek to address the gross unfairness that results. I can only conclude that they were frightened of looking to be in the hands of the unions.

    I was involved in the Temporary and Agency Workers Bill, originally a PMB backed by, cough, UNITE, which tried to address this. The whips did indeed lean on us to oppose it (I was a PPS at the time) but I supported it anyway, not because UNITE asked me to but because it seemed a genuine problem for the reasons DavidL and Fox identify. The government eventually conceded it and we got the Bill. I must admit I've lost track of what happened next, since I've been less close to politics for the last three years. Did it prove ineffective, or was it watered down by the new government?

    Do you mean the Agency Workers regulations 2010? They are still in force. They do not address the question of zero hours contracts although they do give the agency worker the same rights as if he had been employed direct after a qualifying period of 12 weeks provided they stay in the same role. Of course if you have a contractual entitlement to zero hours this really doesn't help you if you are simply offered no work.

This discussion has been closed.