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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited April 2016
    With about 10% of the vote in I predicted last night:

    OK Prediction:

    Sanders 48 Clinton 38
    Cruz 39 Trump 3

    Sanders beat the polling slightly that was based on, but "not quite" proportional allocation (Thresholds) mean Clinton has outperformed her raw vote number to delegate conversion (The result being a wash !)

    And Trump has outperformed relatively in CDs 3 and 7 to land 6 rather than 3 delegates.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,901

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Mr. Roger, don't feel bad. Mr. Eagles used 'license' as a noun the other day.

    On typos, I always thought it was marshmellow, rather than marshmallow. I was perplexed when I discovered I was wrong.

    There's one golden rule about typos on the internet.

    You can spot everyone else's typos, but never your own.
    Not just on the Internet either. Apparently it's because your brain reads what it know's it's written, not what it has actually written.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Cruz and Sanders got victories.
    Hillary and Trump got more delegates than they might have expected to based off the raw vote numbers.

    KASICH GOT SMOKED
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Quidder, same thing happens if you write the wrong word but know what you meant. It's why people checking their own work can miss that, or even when they skip words entirely and sentences don't actually make sense.

    It's why proofreading is hell.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    If you're either an establishment GOPer or very conservative or very evangelical, Cruz makes perfect sense. He's reliably conservative, genuinely God-worshipping and not mad. Trump is none of these things.

    Sanders won big because of huge youth turnout - students standing in line for over 2 hours to vote. The "mobilise the people who don't vote much" strategy is working for him, and Labour should be studying how he does it.

    New York may be decisive for both races. Cruz clearly has the momentum now and if he wins in NY he may wrap up nearly all the remaining states and leave Trump looking like a hopeless loser by the time of the convention. Similarly, Sanders really need to win in NY to break the "respectable second place" meme. I think Cruz has the better chance of the two - the polls can change quickly if a rival campaign looks shambolic. The closed primary in NY helps Clinton, as does the somewhat larger black vote, her Senate record and the fact that Wall Street staff (not a trivial number) actually get to vote here against the anti-Wall Street candidate.

    Sanders didn't help himself with a lot of endearingly honest "I don't know" replies to a high-profile review - not sure how he'd restructure the banks, not sure where he'd hold prisoners if not Guantanamo, etc. Clinton is not hugely liked, but she is really the only seriously competent Presidential candidate out there apart from Kasich.

    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    2:38 am
    Speedy said:

    Trump comes in with a lead in the Madison suburbs and in the far NW.
    That means that he will probably win CD-3 and 7.

    CD-2 is the only one that we don't know yet.

    Speedy said:

    CD-2 looks like it's going to go to Cruz.

    Props to @Speedy. That looks like it was spot on.
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    Mr. Roger, don't feel bad. Mr. Eagles used 'license' as a noun the other day.

    On typos, I always thought it was marshmellow, rather than marshmallow. I was perplexed when I discovered I was wrong.

    There's one golden rule about typos on the internet.

    You can spot everyone else's typos, but never your own.
    ...what it know's it's written...
    ...you prove your own point...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    I don't have time to explain all the reasons as I have to dash but as with a lot of vehicles that tax dodgers use there is often legitimate reasons they exist in the first place & why it is difficult for government / authorities just to say because you have a company in BVI you are a tax dodger etc. Same with transfer pricing that lots of companies exploit to.lower their tax expose there are legit uses for that, then there are companies taking the piss.



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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    edited April 2016
    I find it amusing that people who are against Trump in the GOP are trying to unite behind Ted Cruz. The guy is completely insane, between Trump and Cruz I would definitely pick Trump. Out of all the candidates Kasich seems the most sound and most likely to win (the GE), but is also the most middle of the road candidate so won't appeal to the batshit crazy types in the GOP.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited April 2016
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    There really is no reason to use Panama - the Isle of Man, Guernsey etc can all be used in this way.

    @Roger is quite right.

    However going after Cameron for what his Dad did is just as fetid as the attacks on Ed regarding Ralf.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    "In spite of a late poll showing him 10% in the lead Donald Trump was soundly beaten by Ted Cruz in the Wisconsin primary. All the delegates bar three go to Cruz. "

    Wrong !
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    So they don't adhere to the concept of global taxation? Seems like a decent place to do business!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,006

    Of all the candidates in the race for president, the only one I could conceivably vote for is Sanders. And that staggers me.

    The question then arises: would a Sanders presidency actually be able to do anything?

    It depends on the Senate. It is currently R54 D46 (including two independents one of whom is Sanders). Democrats need four more Senators to make it 50/50 with a Democrat VP having the casting vote.

    There are 10 Democrat seats and 24 Republican seats up for grabs this time. Most of them are safe. But a few aren't.

    In order of probability of Democrat gain, the weakest Republican seats are:

    Wisconsin: 4% D poll lead according to RCP.
    Illinois: 3% D poll lead
    Ohio: 1% R lead. Rob Portman defending but a statistical deadheat.
    Arizona: 1% R lead. John McCain struggling here.
    Florida: No polls but Marco Rubio not standing again. A toss up.
    New Hampshire: 5% R lead. Kelly Ayotte doing well here and will probably hold on.
    Pennsylvania: 9% R lead. But the gap is narrowing. Latest poll was 5% R lead. Probably a Republican hold.

    Only risky Democrat seat is Nevada where Harry Reid is retiring. No polls. Should be a Democrat hold.

    My current best guess is the new Senate will be 49D, 51 R but I'm monitoring this closely as new polls come out. I haven't found any Senate betting opportunities yet. I guess that will come later.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Crucial intervention in #juniorcontract from Patients Association.As one of their members,I support their stance on contractual imposition.As I understand it,the employer has to be fair and reasonable and contractual imposition is neither.Bog standard contract law includes the key word "consent" and as the BMA has not given consent in acting for its members,NHS employers are in clear breach of contract.I'd start crowdfunding for the cost of 35,000 E.T. applications immediately.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/junior-doctors-strike-patients-association-says-it-is-glad-to-see-contract-imposition-being-a6970411.html
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    So, what plausible obstacles are there to a Hillary Presidency?

    Sanders. I think she does need to win NY and bring to an end this series of second places, even though they haven't harmed her a lot in delegate count. She needs to change the narrative in other words. But she is very likely to win NY and will resume the undisputed front-runner mantle.

    The GOP. Kasich made no headway last night. They are going to nominate Trump or Cruz. Hillary will beat either of them.

    The FBI. Emails, whatever.

    She has a hand on the trophy.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    MaxPB said:

    I find it amusing that people who are against Trump in the GOP are trying to unite behind Ted Cruz. The guy is completely insane, between Trump and Cruz I would definitely pick Trump. Out of all the candidates Kasich seems the most sound and most likely to win (the GE), but is also the most middle of the road candidate so won't appeal to the batshit crazy types in the GOP.

    Where Trumps wins over Cruz is that I can't ever see Trump using nukes "because God told me to do it..." Cruz on the other hand.....yikes.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/717626612913725441

    Says something about her judgement, to back the wrong horse.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    rcs1000 said:

    Me too. I honestly can't think of anything about Cruz that's attractive, looking like the offspring of Grandpa Munster doesn't help either. He's just creepy.

    DavidL said:

    I'm looking forward to a sane knowledgeable discussion on here after enduring endless ill informed Never Trump stuff everywhere else. I want to throw things at the British media. It's so incredibly tedious.

    That many are talking up Cruz is beyond me. Do they know anything about his political positioning?

    Didn't Trump get 2 districts?

    I agree. I am no fan of Trump but given a forced choice between him and Lyin' Ted I would vote Trump in a heart beat.
    Cruz appeals to the kind of American who would cut her wrists before she'd fly into Heathrow. There are lots of them.

    Is that so she could experience the NHS up close and personal?
    Cut wrists would count as emergency treatment so Ms Yankee-Doodle would probably get quite a good deal out of the NHS.
    A friend visiting the UK from Guernsey had a nasty accident - the NHS treated him superbly and saved his life - once he was stable they politely asked how he was going to pay - fortunately his company insurance covered the hundreds of thousands involved.....
    Was it a motor vehicle accident? These have been chargeable by the NHS for a long time.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/nhs-to-claw-back-road-crash-costs-1176039.html
    No, fell into a pit in an unsecured building site next to the pavement
    Possibly recoverable from the builders liability insurance then.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Unless Trump withdraws I can't see Cruz winning New York. It is Con Gain Bootle surely?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MaxPB..Global Taxation is a complete non starter..
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Pulpstar said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    There really is no reason to use Panama - the Isle of Man, Guernsey etc can all be used in this way.

    @Roger is quite right.

    However going after Cameron for what his Dad did is just as fetid as the attacks on Ed regarding Ralf.
    How much of the money held was actually in Panama as opposed to other tax havens, e.g. BVIs?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    So does anyone have any info on today's referendum in the Netherlands on the EU-Ukraine deal. I don't really get what the fuss is about, but apparently the people are going to vote it down and the EU-Ukraine deal is then dead in the water as the Dutch government is going to respect the will of the people and rescind their ratification.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Panama Papers: offshore firm set up by Cameron's father was moved to Ireland in year son became PM
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/panama-papers-david-cameron-forced-to-declare-tax-affairs-amid-o/
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    MikeK said:
    Remain isn't making an argument. Feeble doesn't begin to cover it. The only reason they aren't fifteen points behind is that the Leave campaign is just as feeble.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Panama Papers: offshore firm set up by Cameron's father was moved to Ireland in year son became PM
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/panama-papers-david-cameron-forced-to-declare-tax-affairs-amid-o/

    We already knew this too...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Well well,

    Looks like Sanders has won Nevada !

    "Despite losing the state on Feb. 20 in the caucus, Bernie Sanders' campaign swarmed the Clark County caucus and probably flipped two delegates from Hillary Clinton's camp.

    Clinton was presumed to have a 20-15 delegate edge after the caucus based on her 5 percentage point win in the caucuses. But because the caucus process allows some delegates to be unbound, 12 of those were up for grabs at the 17 county conventions Saturday. Sanders had 600 more delegates in Clark on Saturday despite losing the state's most populous county by nearly 10 percentage points.

    That is expected to switch two delegates to Sanders, giving Clinton an 18-17 lead in Nevada, but that is still pending the results of the state convention next month when those 12 slots could again change. (Sanders also dominated in Washoe and did well elsewhere.) Ah, the caucus process."
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    MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    Marquee Mark said
    But the republicans are so screwed if they are going in to bat for Cruz. It would be like the Conservatives having their Last Great Hope as John Redwood.....

    It pains me to say it, as someone who stood twice against JR, but I think he would be far more palatable than Cruz. In terms of rightwingnuttery, if Thatcher is the sun, John Redwood would be Mercury and Cruz would be Jupiter - much larger, greater ability to suck people into his orbit, and much much further out.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    It's virtually impossible for Trump to go to the convention as the loser (though coming out of it is a different story). He's +250 at the moment so Cruz is going to have to make progress in NY, NJ and CA, all of which he's currently way behind in.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Crucial intervention in #juniorcontract from Patients Association.As one of their members,I support their stance on contractual imposition.As I understand it,the employer has to be fair and reasonable and contractual imposition is neither.Bog standard contract law includes the key word "consent" and as the BMA has not given consent in acting for its members,NHS employers are in clear breach of contract.I'd start crowdfunding for the cost of 35,000 E.T. applications immediately.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/junior-doctors-strike-patients-association-says-it-is-glad-to-see-contract-imposition-being-a6970411.html

    Patients' Association? Are they significant? I've never heard of them.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    Outside of the notion of Kasich being Trump's Veep pick, it may just be that Kasich can't abide the idea of either Cruz being the Republican candidate - or seeing somebody who has won no delegates, and has had no scrutiny from the primary process, being parachuted in as candidate. It doesn't, you know, feel right... And Kasich does seem like a decent guy. A bit underwhelming, but probably the one in the field who you would trust to look after your kids for an afternoon or invest your pension pot.....
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    MrsB said:

    Marquee Mark said
    But the republicans are so screwed if they are going in to bat for Cruz. It would be like the Conservatives having their Last Great Hope as John Redwood.....

    It pains me to say it, as someone who stood twice against JR, but I think he would be far more palatable than Cruz. In terms of rightwingnuttery, if Thatcher is the sun, John Redwood would be Mercury and Cruz would be Jupiter - much larger, greater ability to suck people into his orbit, and much much further out.

    So that great big red spot on Cruz would be proof of that National Enquirer story being true!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,427

    MikeK said:
    Remain isn't making an argument. Feeble doesn't begin to cover it. The only reason they aren't fifteen points behind is that the Leave campaign is just as feeble.
    Can't agree. Remain is making an argument: leaving is an economic leap in the dark.

    In effect, asking, do you feel lucky punk? :-)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    So do you think that Trump will offer Kasich the VP spot (and a free run at 2020) if it goes to a contested convention?
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    MikeK said:
    Remain isn't making an argument. Feeble doesn't begin to cover it. The only reason they aren't fifteen points behind is that the Leave campaign is just as feeble.
    It's more Shock and Awful than Shock and Awe
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    MrsB said:

    Marquee Mark said
    But the republicans are so screwed if they are going in to bat for Cruz. It would be like the Conservatives having their Last Great Hope as John Redwood.....

    It pains me to say it, as someone who stood twice against JR, but I think he would be far more palatable than Cruz. In terms of rightwingnuttery, if Thatcher is the sun, John Redwood would be Mercury and Cruz would be Jupiter - much larger, greater ability to suck people into his orbit, and much much further out.

    Taking on Redwood is not a task I envy. He is a formidable campaigner and has one of the most solid majorities in the HoC. Even in 1997 he got more than 50% of the vote I believe.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited April 2016
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    edited April 2016

    MikeK said:
    Remain isn't making an argument. Feeble doesn't begin to cover it. The only reason they aren't fifteen points behind is that the Leave campaign is just as feeble.
    It's more Shock and Awful than Shock and Awe
    It's almost as if Remain thought they couldn't lose and Leave thought they couldn't win - and have put in the intellectual effort accordingly.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    Panama Papers: offshore firm set up by Cameron's father was moved to Ireland in year son became PM
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/panama-papers-david-cameron-forced-to-declare-tax-affairs-amid-o/

    Ah, The Telegraph, owned by the reclusive Barclay brothers, residents of Sark for tax avoidance purposes.

    It's funny how the press are so eager to run these stories, in view of their own tax affairs. The Guardian (linked to the Caymans), and The Daily Mail (owner dodges tax through complicated non-dom status) should get their own houses in order and pay their fair share, before criticising others.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    Outside of the notion of Kasich being Trump's Veep pick, it may just be that Kasich can't abide the idea
    MaxPB said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    So do you think that Trump will offer Kasich the VP spot (and a free run at 2020) if it goes to a contested convention?
    Kasich as Trump's VP provides some stability and moderation to the ticket. Kasich also polls very well against Clinton. However the VP pick usually is of very limited value. The usual notion is "do no harm". In that Kasich is a safe and IMO a modestly useful choice.

    Nevertheless in the final analysis Clinton will defeat Trump with ease.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Next Labour leader market.Angela Eagle too big at 25-1? Pink News thinks so.

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/05/angela-eagle-could-become-first-lgbt-labour-leader-following-corbyn-coup/
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    European Commission to unveil new EU asylum options

    The European Commission is expected to suggest either a modest change that preserves the current system but adds a "fairness" provision so a country struggling to cope can get help.

    A second, more radical option would be to scrap the existing rules and distribute refugees around Europe.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35974982
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,661
    @MarqueeMark - the three arguments Remain are putting forward are (1) sensible, moderate people back Remain, like David Cameron, whom you trust (2) better the devil you know and, (3) if that doesn't grab you, the seven horsemen of the apocalypse will

    I think that'll be enough for the centrist "haves", in social groups AB in particular, to vote Remain but the question is whether it's enough to overcome those who "have not", or are so disillusioned with the EU that their high motivation to turn out, and apathy elsewhere, just tips it over the edge.

    The key thing is whether the desire for change overcomes the fear of risk.

    I think the only conclusion the Remain campaign reaches on any of these sort of poll findings is that the solution is "More Fear".
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    MrsB said:

    Marquee Mark said
    But the republicans are so screwed if they are going in to bat for Cruz. It would be like the Conservatives having their Last Great Hope as John Redwood.....

    It pains me to say it, as someone who stood twice against JR, but I think he would be far more palatable than Cruz. In terms of rightwingnuttery, if Thatcher is the sun, John Redwood would be Mercury and Cruz would be Jupiter - much larger, greater ability to suck people into his orbit, and much much further out.

    I have high regard for Redwood's intellect. And he is well regarded in his constituency. But as for the wider world, he is liberally doused in voter repellant...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Urquhart, they tried distribution before. It didn't work practically and countries like the Czech Republic and Hungary are unlikely to go along with it.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,661
    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    If Trump is 30 short, say, are there enough unbound delegates available in the 1st round who might back him to get him over the line to settle this quickly?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,715

    European Commission to unveil new EU asylum options


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35974982

    Option 1. The lunatics take over.

    Oh no, that's the status quo.
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    MaxPB said:

    So does anyone have any info on today's referendum in the Netherlands on the EU-Ukraine deal. I don't really get what the fuss is about, but apparently the people are going to vote it down and the EU-Ukraine deal is then dead in the water as the Dutch government is going to respect the will of the people and rescind their ratification.

    The polls indicate it will be voted down today triggering a crisis in the EU. The EU, as only they could, apparently have said the result is only advisory so no doubt they will prevaricate and in the end ignore the result. The problem for the EU is that every time they refuse the democratic will of an individual Country they tighten the rope round their own neck and advance the cause of the right and it may also have a considerable influence on Brexit. These are very interesting times and I am finding it increasingly difficult to come to a decision on how I will vote in June.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AlanRoden: New TNS #sp16 opinion poll: https://t.co/S6rqxKdAM9
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,402
    Quote function again not working.

    If Mrs B is who I think she must be, she managed two very respectable second places against Redwood, with Labour a long way behind in third. In a constituency with Wokingham's demographic and economic makeup, that's a pretty formidable achievement in itself.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016
    David Cameron, his wife and their children will not benefit from offshore funds or trusts in the future, a spokesman has said in a further statement this morning.

    Presuming all this is true, PR department at No. 10 wants shooting. 4 different statements over 3 days have kept this story running. They could have shut it down on day 1, the "its a private matter" was the dumbest of the lot of them.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,402
    edited April 2016

    European Commission to unveil new EU asylum options


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35974982

    Option 1. The lunatics take over.

    Oh no, that's the status quo.
    It's baffling. Why is quote working for some posts and not others?

    The main point I wish to make is; that remark is grossly unfair and defamatory. I suggest you withdraw it before everyone who has been certified sues for libel.

    I'll get my coat because I need a haircut.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    So does anyone have any info on today's referendum in the Netherlands on the EU-Ukraine deal. I don't really get what the fuss is about, but apparently the people are going to vote it down and the EU-Ukraine deal is then dead in the water as the Dutch government is going to respect the will of the people and rescind their ratification.

    The polls indicate it will be voted down today triggering a crisis in the EU. The EU, as only they could, apparently have said the result is only advisory so no doubt they will prevaricate and in the end ignore the result. The problem for the EU is that every time they refuse the democratic will of an individual Country they tighten the rope round their own neck and advance the cause of the right and it may also have a considerable influence on Brexit. These are very interesting times and I am finding it increasingly difficult to come to a decision on how I will vote in June.
    One complication is that it under Dutch law it is only advisory and that is especially so if turnout is under 30%. I know pro-ratification Dutch who are abstaining rather than voting in favour as they think the best way to "win" is to not turnout so the 30% threshold isn't met.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    David Cameron, his wife and their children will not benefit from offshore funds or trusts in the future, a spokesman has said in a further statement this morning.

    Have they in the past? That's the missing tense.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    ydoethur said:

    Quote function again not working.

    If Mrs B is who I think she must be, she managed two very respectable second places against Redwood, with Labour a long way behind in third. In a constituency with Wokingham's demographic and economic makeup, that's a pretty formidable achievement in itself.

    I'm amused by the name of the 2010 UKIP candidate in Wokingham.

    Time for bed.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Horrendous weather in Yorkshire. Cold, rainy, windy.

    I can only assume this dreadful weather has been caused by the possibility of the Netherlands voting against the EU deal.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    If Trump is 30 short, say, are there enough unbound delegates available in the 1st round who might back him to get him over the line to settle this quickly?
    If Trump is just shy then it will be the weeks leading to the convention that will be critical. Will the GOP establishment attempt to deny him in such circumstance? - if so, it'll be a political bloodbath.

    The pressure on the swing unbound delegates from all sides to carry Trump over or deny him will be huge. The clear winner will be Clinton.
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    TNS Scotland.


    Sleazy broken Nats on the slide/Con surge

    Constituency:

    SNP 56% (-4), Lab 19% (-2), Con 15% (+2), Lib Dem 6% (+2)

    Region:

    SNP 47% (-8), Lab 21% (0), Con 15% (+2), Lib Dem 6% (+2), Green 8% (+2)

    http://www.tns-bmrb.co.uk/press-release/large-preference-scotland-remaining-eu-many-still-unsure
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016

    David Cameron, his wife and their children will not benefit from offshore funds or trusts in the future, a spokesman has said in a further statement this morning.

    Have they in the past? That's the missing tense.
    We had this discussion last night, I don't think he can answer that with a definite No, because by benefit what do we mean. Any money / gifts he ever got from his father could potentially be classed as such, his wife was part of a sale of a company where she had shares in and potential that the deal was setup to be tax efficient etc etc etc.

    The reality is that everybody will probably have "befitted" from some sort of tax efficiency / minimization somewhere, be it 2nd / 3rd / 4th hand and you probably never know because you aren't privy to all your relatives financial dealings.

    Also, if you really want to nit pick, the statement says him, his wife, his kids, we know his brother and sisters already got left the keys to the families homes before his fathers death and got more in the will.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    edited April 2016


    The key thing is whether the desire for change overcomes the fear of risk.

    I think the only conclusion the Remain campaign reaches on any of these sort of poll findings is that the solution is "More Fear".

    My biggest criticism of Leave is that they have not yet framed the argument as there being no safe, comfortable status quo. In reality, we are being offered two choices - out of the EU, or absorbed more deeply into it. Both are a leap into the dark. As was mentioned earlier - do you feel lucky punk? (Hint: one of these outcomes requires the French to play nice with us for untold decades....)

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,077

    Another triumph for the Nats (£):

    It was a politically motivated attempt to force the country’s most famous confectionery company to crumble. After Tunnock’s branded its classic snack product as the “Great British Tea Cake”, Scottish nationalists responded with fury and called for a boycott.

    But it has emerged that the campaign backfired spectacularly, with sales soaring following the controversy.

    The Lanarkshire company has revealed that it struggled to cope with demand and sold hundreds of thousands more biscuits after they were branded “traitors” by irate cybernats.


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nationalist-storm-over-a-british-tea-cake-delivers-big-boost-to-tunnocks-sales-vr6xbqn3j

    Lord Haw haw in fine form today
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,661
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    If Trump is 30 short, say, are there enough unbound delegates available in the 1st round who might back him to get him over the line to settle this quickly?
    If Trump is just shy then it will be the weeks leading to the convention that will be critical. Will the GOP establishment attempt to deny him in such circumstance? - if so, it'll be a political bloodbath.

    The pressure on the swing unbound delegates from all sides to carry Trump over or deny him will be huge. The clear winner will be Clinton.
    What's interesting is that we've sort of been here before: back in 2008 with the Democrat race all the talk was of how all the superdelegates were for Hillary, and would take her over the line.

    In the end they decided to follow the democrat will and plump for Obama.

    Doesn't mean the Republicans will be similarly sensible, of course.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    malcolmg said:

    Another triumph for the Nats (£):

    It was a politically motivated attempt to force the country’s most famous confectionery company to crumble. After Tunnock’s branded its classic snack product as the “Great British Tea Cake”, Scottish nationalists responded with fury and called for a boycott.

    But it has emerged that the campaign backfired spectacularly, with sales soaring following the controversy.

    The Lanarkshire company has revealed that it struggled to cope with demand and sold hundreds of thousands more biscuits after they were branded “traitors” by irate cybernats.


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nationalist-storm-over-a-british-tea-cake-delivers-big-boost-to-tunnocks-sales-vr6xbqn3j

    Lord Haw haw in fine form today
    How's your oil boom going?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,271
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/717644489570000897

    Once Coburn really starts his charm offensive, these 30% DK/WVs are in the bag.
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    ICM weekly #EUref poll has
    REMAIN 44%
    LEAVE 43%
    DK 13%
  • Options

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/717644489570000897

    Once Coburn really starts his charm offensive, these 30% DK/WVs are in the bag.

    I really enjoyed his STV/Facebook Q&A
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,661


    The key thing is whether the desire for change overcomes the fear of risk.

    I think the only conclusion the Remain campaign reaches on any of these sort of poll findings is that the solution is "More Fear".

    My biggest criticism of Leave is that they have not yet framed the argument as there being no safe, comfortable status quo. In reality, we are being offered two choices - out of the EU, or absorbed more deeply into it. Both are a leap into the dark. As was mentioned earlier - do you feel lucky punk? (Hint: one of these outcomes requires the French to play nice with us for untold decades....)

    They have four weeks to get their act together. After which all Hell will break loose.

    I hope they are prepared for that.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,901
    watford30 said:

    Panama Papers: offshore firm set up by Cameron's father was moved to Ireland in year son became PM
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/panama-papers-david-cameron-forced-to-declare-tax-affairs-amid-o/

    Ah, The Telegraph, owned by the reclusive Barclay brothers, residents of Sark for tax avoidance purposes.

    It's funny how the press are so eager to run these stories, in view of their own tax affairs. The Guardian (linked to the Caymans), and The Daily Mail (owner dodges tax through complicated non-dom status) should get their own houses in order and pay their fair share, before criticising others.
    You make a good point. I wonder whether the Barrclay Brothers in particular are feeling a little uneasy at the direction their paper is going with this. They have a reputation among the Sarkese for walking away if things aren't to their liking
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:



    Cruz will be crushed in New York - his "New York Values" contempt comment is proving about as popular as an endorsement from Marine Le Pen for Jezza in Labour circles.

    Sanders problem is he hasn't been able to break Clinton's lock on the minority vote and that isn't going to happen in New York either.

    Agreed, but the black vote in NY is 15%, bigger than the 10% in WI but not enormous. The real Sanders problem there is that it's a closed primary and his strength is among independents.

    On third party runs - Sanders certainly won't: the Democrat contest has been relatively polite and he'll congratulate Hillary warmly and settle for some policy pledges, I guess. Trump might - it's very late in the day, too late in some states, but he can run as a write-in candidate even there. But it might have less impact than we think if he reaches the convention as a shambling loser.

    That said, we have yet to see the media spotlight really focus on Cruz (and Sanders). After 6 months of watching Trump's every misstep, it's Cruz's turn to stumble.
    Hispanics also make up another 17% of the vote in New York State.

    My own numbers put Trump in the 1200-1230 range - Right on the cusp. Interestingly Trump and Kasich have been relatively polite to each other .. Can't think why ?? .. :smile:
    If Trump is 30 short, say, are there enough unbound delegates available in the 1st round who might back him to get him over the line to settle this quickly?
    If Trump is just shy then it will be the weeks leading to the convention that will be critical. Will the GOP establishment attempt to deny him in such circumstance? - if so, it'll be a political bloodbath.

    The pressure on the swing unbound delegates from all sides to carry Trump over or deny him will be huge. The clear winner will be Clinton.
    What's interesting is that we've sort of been here before: back in 2008 with the Democrat race all the talk was of how all the superdelegates were for Hillary, and would take her over the line.

    In the end they decided to follow the democrat will and plump for Obama.

    Doesn't mean the Republicans will be similarly sensible, of course.
    Iirc, in 2008 Hillary moved Obama's nomination. It's a little hard to see Cruz (or Trump!) doing that.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Interesting piece here on discord at the top of the Iranian political system:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35960029
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'the Dutch government is going to respect the will of the people and rescind their ratification'

    Really? This is precisely what Cameron claimed he couldn't do on Lisbon, right?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2016
    O/T Last night I chaired the EU Referendum meeting I've mentioned previously. The participants were local (rural/village or small town) Conservative Party members, mostly prosperous, middle-age upwards, and including a number of local councillors. I'd written a non-partisan briefing paper* describing the options (which I'd checked with some Leavers to try to ensure it was balanced). After a brief introduction we had one member explaining why he was going to vote Leave, and I explained why I was going to vote Remain. We then had a good discussion amongst all the members. As you'd expect, all of the arguments were ones we've rehearsed here, but nonetheless some interesting points emerged:

    1. The universal view was that people felt very uninformed about the issues; many participants said that my paper was the first clear account they had seen. There was criticism of both campaigns, and of the government, and of the media, for not explaining the issues properly. (And bear in mind that these are politically engaged and generally well-informed people, who are reliable voters).

    2. We held a straw poll at the end of the evening. The result, rather to my surprise, split almost equally three ways between Remain, Leave and Undecided. Leave was the winner, but only just. The bit that most surprised me was the large number who are still undecided.

    3. There was absolutely no bitterness or animosity towards those on the other side of the argument, or towards the leadership (although some are not Cameron fans!). At least on this sample the party is split but not at war.

    4. I also asked for a show of hands on a secondary question: "Irrespective of whether you support Remain or Leave, if the result is Leave would you prefer an EEA-style deal retaining freedom of movement, or a looser deal where we are not subject to freedom of movement but would be taking a greater economic risk". The result was overwhelmingly in favour of the latter.

    I've no idea how representative any of this is, of course.

    * Downloadable here: http://www.microapl.com/download/EUReferendumBriefingPaper.pdf
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,901
    edited April 2016
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,661

    O/T Last night I chaired the EU Referendum meeting I've mentioned previously. The participants were local (rural/village or small town) Conservative Party members, mostly prosperous, middle-age upwards, and including a number of local councillors. I'd written a non-partisan briefing paper* describing the options (which I'd checked with some Leavers to try to ensure it was balanced). After a brief introduction we had one member explaining why he was going to vote Leave, and I explained why I was going to vote Remain. We then had a good discussion amongst all the members. As you'd expect, all of the arguments were ones we've rehearsed here, but nonetheless some interesting points emerged:

    1. The universal view was that people felt very uninformed about the issues; many participants said that my paper was the first clear account they had seen. There was criticism of both campaigns, and of the government, and of the media, for not explaining the issues properly. (And bear in mind that these are politically engaged and generally well-informed people, who are reliable voters).

    2. We held a straw poll at the end of the evening. The result, rather to my surprise, split almost equally three ways between Remain, Leave and Undecided. Leave was the winner, but only just. The bit that most surprised me was the large number who are still undecided.

    3. There was absolutely no bitterness or animosity towards those on the other side of the argument, or towards the leadership (although some are not Cameron fans!). At least on this sample the party is split but not at war.

    4. I also asked for a show of hands on a secondary question: "Irrespective of whether you support Remain or Leave, if the result is Leave would you prefer an EEA-style deal retaining freedom of movement, or a looser deal where we are not subject to freedom of movement but would be taking a greater economic risk". The result was overwhelmingly in favour of the latter.

    I've no idea how representative any of this is, of course.

    * Downloadable here: http://www.microapl.com/download/EUReferendumBriefingPaper.pdf

    Thanks for this summary, Richard, very interesting.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure
    And when has a BBC talking head ever been wrong...Even on the secrecy aspect, that does not equal anything illegal or immoral....

    Panama has other advantages. It is the cross roads of North America / Latin America, while being stable (and unofficially protected by the US). It uses the USD. It is easy to get people who are bilingual. I don't fancy wanting to base my business in Columbia thanks, when I can do it in Panama.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    Horrendous weather in Yorkshire. Cold, rainy, windy.

    I can only assume this dreadful weather has been caused by the possibility of the Netherlands voting against the EU deal.

    No. It's because you bought a dog that needs walking.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure
    And when has a BBC talking head ever been wrong...Even on the secrecy aspect, that does not equal anything illegal or immoral....

    Panama has other advantages. It is the cross roads of North America / Latin America, while being stable (and unofficially protected by the US). It uses the USD. It is easy to get people who are bilingual. I don't fancy wanting to base my business in Columbia thanks, when I can do it in Panama.
    The BBC are unlikely to wheel out a tax expert who disagrees with their meme. They have form.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Mark, all dogs need walking...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    Mr. Mark, all dogs need walking...

    But some need walking further than others....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016
    Ramon Fonseca said the leak was not an "inside job" - the company had been hacked by servers based abroad.

    The company has accused media organisations reporting the leak of having "unauthorised access to proprietary documents and information taken from our company" and of presenting this information out of context.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35975503
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure
    snip
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Update from Hillary:

    " Friend --

    It seems the Sanders campaign is finally seeing the writing on the wall: Hillary has won more votes AND more pledged delegates in this election -- her lead in both is nearly insurmountable.

    So this morning, Bernie’s campaign manager claimed the convention could be an “open convention,” and declared they’re going to try and flip delegates’ votes, overturning the will of the voters. "
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Ramon Fonseca said the leak was not an "inside job" - the company had been hacked by servers based abroad.

    The company has accused media organisations reporting the leak of having "unauthorised access to proprietary documents and information taken from our company" and of presenting this information out of context.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35975503

    Of course they say all that... much more defensible to a client
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,077
    Scott_P said:

    @AlanRoden: New TNS #sp16 opinion poll: https://t.co/S6rqxKdAM9

    Tory surge over yet again I see
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Roger said:

    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure

    It's only fairly recently that places such as Guernsey and Switzerland (under pressure from the UK and EU) have started to insist on disclosure, isn't it? Anonymous accounts and companies controlled via bearer shares used to be commonplace in many jurisdictions.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016

    Ramon Fonseca said the leak was not an "inside job" - the company had been hacked by servers based abroad.

    The company has accused media organisations reporting the leak of having "unauthorised access to proprietary documents and information taken from our company" and of presenting this information out of context.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35975503

    Of course they say all that... much more defensible to a client
    Well yes, its a bit like "my twitter was hacked excuse"...but if they have. Bit tricky. Handling stolen stuff and all that.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Roger said:

    watford30 said:

    Panama Papers: offshore firm set up by Cameron's father was moved to Ireland in year son became PM
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/05/panama-papers-david-cameron-forced-to-declare-tax-affairs-amid-o/

    Ah, The Telegraph, owned by the reclusive Barclay brothers, residents of Sark for tax avoidance purposes.

    It's funny how the press are so eager to run these stories, in view of their own tax affairs. The Guardian (linked to the Caymans), and The Daily Mail (owner dodges tax through complicated non-dom status) should get their own houses in order and pay their fair share, before criticising others.
    You make a good point. I wonder whether the Barrclay Brothers in particular are feeling a little uneasy at the direction their paper is going with this. They have a reputation among the Sarkese for walking away if things aren't to their liking
    The newspapers are loathe to print unfavourable reports on the personal lives or financial affairs of their respective owners, for obvious reasons.

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Dr P,

    "Sanders didn't help himself with a lot of endearingly honest "I don't know" replies."

    Therein lies a problem. We shouldn't elect politicians because of their knowledge of a particular aspect of a subject. We should elect them on their judgement. Get the best advice, and judge the alternatives.

    Ed Balls wouldn't be a good Chancellor because he had a third of a degree in economics, nor would Osborne because he can hang a roll of wallpaper.

    You suggest we elect the best bluffers, and unfortunately, you're right.

    Jezza may be honest but he'll never admit he doesn't know anything, even if he struggles to do up his own buttons. And even worse, he'll ask only people who agree with him (I think that button goes there ... oops).
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Ramon Fonseca said the leak was not an "inside job" - the company had been hacked by servers based abroad.

    The company has accused media organisations reporting the leak of having "unauthorised access to proprietary documents and information taken from our company" and of presenting this information out of context.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35975503

    Of course they say all that... much more defensible to a client
    Well yes, its a bit like "my twitter was hacked excuse"...but if they have. Bit tricky. Handling stolen stuff and all that.
    well if it's leaked it isn't "clean" - there must be rules about using it already, public interest probably in there somewhere
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT

    "Only little people pay taxes" Leona Helmsley.

    It seems to be the consensus that ANYONE who has their money in a 'tax haven' (eg Panama) as opposed to a 'low tax jurisdiction' (eg Guernsey) is doing so to hide nefarious activities such as money laundering sanctions busting and tax evasion. There can be NO other reason.

    After the Panama revelations anyone with money in such a jurisdiction is now coming under scrutiny. After the Iceland PM the second casualty looks like being the new President of FIFA.

    A tiny tip of an extremely fetid iceberg

    Oh dear.

    As usual you are totally wrong that there is no other reason but something illegal to have such structures. The Panama papers have actually shown that & even with all the fuss about Cameron's father the guardian stress time & time again he did nothing illegal.
    Why then use Panama?
    Because Panama doesn't tax income outside it's jurisdiction. Hence a Panama fund can have US UK German investors each of whom faces no tax cost apart from what they are required to pay in their domestic market.
    That is not the view of the tax expert the BBC wheeled out this morning. He was unequivocal-unlike yesterday when he was hesitant-that there can be NO reason other than secrecy for using Panama rather than for example Guernsey which insist on disclosure
    And who was this tax expert? Not the egregious Richard Murphy, perhaps? He's no more a tax expert than I'm a marathon runner.

  • Options
    The Indonesians don't mess about do they.

    Indonesia destroyed 23 foreign fishing boats on Tuesday, as worsening relations over the disputed South China Sea drive countries to take tougher action to defend their maritime sovereignty.

    Maritime and Fisheries Minister Susi Pudjiastuti said her agency sank 10 Malaysian and 13 Vietnamese boats that were caught fishing illegally in Indonesian waters.

    She vowed to mete out the same punishment to any vessel found poaching, no matter its origin. “If there is an illegal fishing boat from America, we will also sink it,” Ms. Pudjiastuti said.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/indonesia-blows-up-23-foreign-fishing-boats-to-send-a-message-1459852007
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    European Commission to unveil new EU asylum options

    The European Commission is expected to suggest either a modest change that preserves the current system but adds a "fairness" provision so a country struggling to cope can get help.

    A second, more radical option would be to scrap the existing rules and distribute refugees around Europe.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35974982

    Imagine Corbyn in control of the opt-out.

This discussion has been closed.