Had to check this, because I thought someone might have been pulling John Inverdale's leg (he mentioned this on the rugby yesterday), but England was once captained by Lancelot Slocock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancelot_Slocock
His parents picked an interesting name. "Hmm. He may get ribbed at school because he's called Slocock. What name should we give him, darling?" "Something everyday. Innuendo-free. How about... Lancelot?"
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
He shouldn't because of IDS.
But because he's unpopular with party members, and the electorate. Osborne as leader would be a liability. The Tories are unlikely to win a majority with him in charge. Not now, with the reputation he's acquired.
I'd almost prefer Corbyn. At least he's up front about fr@cking you over, rather than a devious Brown look-a-like.
As has been said before, Osborne comes across as somewhat cruel and unfeeling. And if IDS resigns because he is, that only re-inforces such a view.
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
Not just because of that, but because it weakens his position with MPs, and in any case his ambitions rely on being lucky withinthe world economy, that is his position was already weak.
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
He shouldn't because of IDS.
But because he's unpopular with party members, and the electorate. Osborne as leader would be a liability. The Tories are unlikely to win a majority with him in charge. Not now, with the reputation he's acquired.
I'd almost prefer Corbyn. At least he's up front about fr@cking you over, rather than a devious Brown look-a-like.
It is hard to see who Osborne is popular with! Not going to gain votes from the centre either. Doomed even before it gets to a party vote.
Several posters here made him between 1-3 and 1-6 to get to the final two. Now that may have moved out a little, but I'm not conceeding yet !
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Btw on this "despite recent events the Tories still retain their blood lust for power" - you could have fooled me.
Lol, yes I thought this too.
Having been dragged into power in the coat tails of Cameron and Osborne, the Tory hard right seem to have deluded themselves that they are popular with the public and good at politics.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Personally, I think he will be a failure if the party shifts away from the centre ground towards the right. The core of his leadership has been an attempt to make the part electable, and there will be a black mark over him if the party shifts away from that. Note: that is not saying his successor has to follow Cameronism, whatever that is.
Centrists, rather unsurprisingly, continue to conflate sitting in the centre with winning, overlooking the elephant in the room of Fatcha, well off to the centre-right, massive landslide victory that Cameron can only dream of. At best you could say that given two equally crap leaders, the most centrist will probably win by default, but talent trumps Centrism every time.
I still personally struggle with the idea that Cameron is a massively successful leader for scraping a paper thin majority against someone as flawed as Ed Miliband, had he been facing Gordon Brown again (or probably either Mr or Mrs Balls) he would never have got a majority, and against someone with actual talent like Blair he would have been toast. "Not as crap as Ed" would be a more accurate description, but probably not going to be that popular with the tory brown-nose brigade.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
He shouldn't because of IDS.
But because he's unpopular with party members, and the electorate. Osborne as leader would be a liability. The Tories are unlikely to win a majority with him in charge. Not now, with the reputation he's acquired.
I'd almost prefer Corbyn. At least he's up front about fr@cking you over, rather than a devious Brown look-a-like.
It is hard to see who Osborne is popular with! Not going to gain votes from the centre either. Doomed even before it gets to a party vote.
Several posters here made him between 1-3 and 1-6 to get to the final two. Now that may have moved out a little, but I'm not conceeding yet !
Whoever was the Other, Osborne wouldn't beat them. I've always had grave doubts that Osborne would succeed Cameron, expressed freely on here. His recent pathetic showing on the Renegotiation and the PIP a cripple fiasco have indeed ended that slenderest of hopes.
I think for the succession, the Tories will do what they did with Cameron, and dip down a generation. The next leader is barely forty, is my guess.
Steve Richards makes a good point that a lot of this is back to front. I suspect the anger directed towards IDS is that he's positioned himself to the kinder side of the Tories when he's supposed to be on the nasty side of the party.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Suzanne Evans was pretty lucid. Easy to see why Farage sees her as a threat.
Miss Plato, if Altmann[sp] wrote and released that with the agreement of Number Ten, then Cameron's taken the decision to deepen an already significant rift.
If not, Cameron needs to get the likes of Osborne and Gove to persuade their allies to calm things down.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Suzanne Evans was pretty lucid. Easy to see why Farage sees her as a threat.
I've just googled Priti Patel. I suggest she'd have the male vote sewn up. Or am I just being shallow as usual?
I believe the acceptable way to not appear shallow would be to say she is telegenic. But I've heard she's actually pretty crap in interviews and the like. Running for leader would be a different experience and done of the other candidates aren't great at interviews either, Boris springs to mind, so maybe she woukd do ok on that score.
Priti is not my cup of tea. Her political views aside, she has a cold persona that comes across very poorly in interviews. I am not too bothered by her views on capital punishment, as it would never get through parliament. Support for her does seem to arise from a desire for tokenism rather than any real star quality.
In terms of eye candy, I would commend Stella Creasy, or for those who travel on the other bus Stephen Crabb. Past experience of such fellows is that expressed views fade over time.
I find Patel too right wing for my tastes, but completely disagree with your assessment of her. In interviews, she seems credible, serious and impassioned. The only time I have seen her undone was when she had to defend her capital punishment views on QT. She ended having to argue miscarriages of justice don't happen.
If she's smart she will "evolve" to just preferring long sentences and will turn a negative with Joe Public into an electoral asset.
Miss Plato, also key in history (one of the reasons so little is known of Lysimachus, one of the major Diadochi figures, may be because he destroyed the city of Cardia and moved its population to his new capital Lysimacheia. Hieronymus of Cardia was the prime historian for the period... [which may also explain the generally kind treatment of Eumenes of Cardia]).
As an example; a PM could stand up and say: "We will to enact a law to do x." They put a law in front of the house that more or less does x, and it gets voted down. The mistake there is to say "will", instead of "intend", but people who view the politician poorly will mix those up anyway.
A good leader ( with good whips ) should have the measure of their party, and know what they are going to be able to get past them, and what is going to be tough, and what is going to be impossible. They should also know what is in their power, and what isnt.
Saying you are going to bring immigration down to 10s of thousands then over 200,000 arrive every year under freedom of movement from within the EU is at best being disingenuous, if not outright lying, it claims you can do something you have no way of delivering.
Saying we will legislate to do X when you (should) know that 50 of your back benchers oppose it, and hoping you can brow-beat MPs at the last minute is at best foolhardy, if not downright dishonest.
Cameron appeared completely surprised that more than half his parliamentary party want to LEAVE, he plainly expected it to be the usual couple of dozen troublemakers, is that poor leadership, or does he need to sack his whips, and is employing incompetent whips actually just poor leadership. If a CEO went to the board and said the company wasn't making profits because the whipssalesforce sucked, the board would likely say getting the right whipssalesforce was part of his job.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
Similar to Corbyn in that it was an insult to the electorate to ask them to take him seriously as a potential Prime Minister.
But so far as I know he has never made common cause with Holocaust deniers or South American fascist governments.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Suzanne Evans was pretty lucid. Easy to see why Farage sees her as a threat.
Her UKIP manifesto was far more professional than the previous one put together by Farage's mates in the Golf club bar.
This is a bit silly on the Marr show. Surely they should have just started with the IDS interview rather than get pundits to speculate further on the resignation. Why not just cut to the chase?
Suzanne Evans was pretty lucid. Easy to see why Farage sees her as a threat.
Her UKIP manifesto was far more professional than the previous one put together by Farage's mates in the Golf club bar.
I thought theirs was the slickest of the 2015 manifestos.
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
He shouldn't because of IDS.
But because he's unpopular with party members, and the electorate. Osborne as leader would be a liability. The Tories are unlikely to win a majority with him in charge. Not now, with the reputation he's acquired.
I'd almost prefer Corbyn. At least he's up front about fr@cking you over, rather than a devious Brown look-a-like.
It is hard to see who Osborne is popular with! Not going to gain votes from the centre either. Doomed even before it gets to a party vote.
Several posters here made him between 1-3 and 1-6 to get to the final two. Now that may have moved out a little, but I'm not conceeding yet !
Whoever was the Other, Osborne wouldn't beat them. I've always had grave doubts that Osborne would succeed Cameron, expressed freely on here. His recent pathetic showing on the Renegotiation and the PIP a cripple fiasco have indeed ended that slenderest of hopes.
I think for the succession, the Tories will do what they did with Cameron, and dip down a generation. The next leader is barely forty, is my guess.
Rudd vs Crabb, with Fox and Boris as also-rans? Stranger things have happened (a certain Labour MP scooping 60% of the vote springs to mind).
Paul Waugh Lamont: 'In office but not in power' Howe: 'Bats hv been broken by the team captain' IDS? 'Not all in this together' https://t.co/lYYuzHI3th
Paul Waugh This NHS story is extraordinary, especially claims that Simon Stevens was 'leant on'. Is Laws right? On another day this wd be the top story
Tim Shipman BREAKING: Now Justin Tomlinson, junior DWP minister, backs IDS over Altmann https://t.co/M0yu9GVjNz
Just a question if the grenades start doing collateral damage beyond the department I guess. Directly that is, obviously the fact of them is damaging.
Giving Altmann is former New Labour, I'm guessing she is mainly being motivated by EU issue. They are trying to character assasinate IDS to distract from Osborne's anti-Robin Hood budget blunder.
For all his claims to be a reformer, IDS has been a danger to the Tory Party. He tried to assassinate Major, is trying to do the same to Cameron, was a failure as Party Leader and did not demonstrate any real achievements at DWP. The Brexit Tory MPs are being very noisy because they believe that they are losing the battle on the referendum.
Tim Shipman BREAKING: Now Justin Tomlinson, junior DWP minister, backs IDS over Altmann https://t.co/M0yu9GVjNz
Just a question if the grenades start doing collateral damage beyond the department I guess. Directly that is, obviously the fact of them is damaging.
Giving Altmann is former New Labour, I'm guessing she is mainly being motivated by EU issue. They are trying to character assasinate IDS to distract from Osborne's anti-Robin Hood budget blunder.
Tim Shipman BREAKING: Now Justin Tomlinson, junior DWP minister, backs IDS over Altmann https://t.co/M0yu9GVjNz
Just a question if the grenades start doing collateral damage beyond the department I guess. Directly that is, obviously the fact of them is damaging.
Giving Altmann is former New Labour, I'm guessing she is mainly being motivated by EU issue. They are trying to character assasinate IDS to distract from Osborne's anti-Robin Hood budget blunder.
Yes, probably. He suggested Cameron and co are insincere about being fair to people (some may well agree) and undermined their entire argument on the cuts, they're trying to suggest he's insincere about his motivations for making that attack (again, some will agree) and a dishonourable cad to boot.
We'll see who takes this the furthest, escalates it the most, but in this fight no one started out on the high road, and cannot honestly claim shock or upset at the other side trying to hit them back. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the budget or the EU, in this IDS fight tactically at least they've acted the same.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
For all his limited appeal at least Corbyn is a human being. For those ideologically on the 'left' he makes sense. Just an old fashioned lefty whose time has probably passsed.
IDS is an altogether different kettle of fish. We can all agree he's hopeless but beyond that to non Tories he's also as unpleasant and disloyal a human being as even Shakespeare could have dreamt up
Your definition of a human being is someone on the political Left.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
For all his claims to be a reformer, IDS has been a danger to the Tory Party. He tried to assassinate Major, is trying to do the same to Cameron, was a failure as Party Leader and did not demonstrate any real achievements at DWP. The Brexit Tory MPs are being very noisy because they believe that they are losing the battle on the referendum.
Why is everyone trying to turn this into an argument about the referendum? The only relevance of the EU debate is, I suspect, that it is the motivation for Osborne's giveaway. But whatever his motives, he has lost all credibility when it comes to deficit reduction.
I think that this is the watershed in the referendum. The obvious schism in the conservative party has rocketed to the top of the news agenda and may well motivate the remain campaign by all the pro parties as they now see how ruthless the brexit can be.
God bless TSE's puns and the subject of this thread, the heir apparent to the Baronetcy of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford
I was up until 2 am desperately trying to get in an Osborne Ultimatatum pun. I failed.
Hasn't he already done that? "Do you want to vote Leave, or have a career?"
For all his claims to be a reformer, IDS has been a danger to the Tory Party. He tried to assassinate Major, is trying to do the same to Cameron, was a failure as Party Leader and did not demonstrate any real achievements at DWP. The Brexit Tory MPs are being very noisy because they believe that they are losing the battle on the referendum.
Why is everyone trying to turn this into an argument about the referendum?
Everything about Tory politics at the moment is connected to it. I've no reason to doubt IDS' primary motivation is about what he said it was, but without the context of the wider political debate and being permitted to express open dissatisfaction with the government, and with the timing of the referendum so close, would he have been as likely to resign? Possibly not. Would Osborne, as you say, have done dome of the things IDS says provoked him? Possibly not.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
For all his limited appeal at least Corbyn is a human being. For those ideologically on the 'left' he makes sense. Just an old fashioned lefty whose time has probably passsed.
IDS is an altogether different kettle of fish. We can all agree he's hopeless but beyond that to non Tories he's also as unpleasant and disloyal a human being as even Shakespeare could have dreamt up
Your definition of a human being is someone on the political Left.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
You're talking about the right. No one does moral superiority like a right winger.
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
I may be in a small minority on here but I actually quite like IDS, and think he's a decent man.
He spent a lot of time back in 2002-2003 trying to get the Conservatives to focus on helping the poorest in our society, highlighting the plight of our roughest estates, and helped make social justice a policy focus that's now part of the conservative mainstream.
Ironically, I don't support him on this particular issue, and would side with Osborne (shock) instead, but I can understand why he's had enough, particularly since Osborne has zero respect for him and doesn't bother to hide it.
Why should Osborne abandon his leadership hopes just because Ian Duncan Shit wants him to ?
He shouldn't because of IDS.
But because he's unpopular with party members, and the electorate. Osborne as leader would be a liability. The Tories are unlikely to win a majority with him in charge. Not now, with the reputation he's acquired.
I'd almost prefer Corbyn. At least he's up front about fr@cking you over, rather than a devious Brown look-a-like.
It is hard to see who Osborne is popular with! Not going to gain votes from the centre either. Doomed even before it gets to a party vote.
Several posters here made him between 1-3 and 1-6 to get to the final two. Now that may have moved out a little, but I'm not conceeding yet !
Whoever was the Other, Osborne wouldn't beat them. I've always had grave doubts that Osborne would succeed Cameron, expressed freely on here. His recent pathetic showing on the Renegotiation and the PIP a cripple fiasco have indeed ended that slenderest of hopes.
I think for the succession, the Tories will do what they did with Cameron, and dip down a generation. The next leader is barely forty, is my guess.
Rudd vs Crabb, with Fox and Boris as also-rans? Stranger things have happened (a certain Labour MP scooping 60% of the vote springs to mind).
Amber Rudd makes Ken Clarke look eurosceptic.
One thing I will bet my mortgage on: there will not be two Remainers in the final two.
Miss Plato, if Altmann[sp] wrote and released that with the agreement of Number Ten, then Cameron's taken the decision to deepen an already significant rift.
If not, Cameron needs to get the likes of Osborne and Gove to persuade their allies to calm things down.
Beyond the bounds of credibility to believe that Altmann's attack-dog-letter was not written with No.10's blessing .... since the "renegotiation", there's definitely been a return of powers to No.10.
Anybody claiming Cameron lacks intelligence is plain silly, he's clearly highly intelligent. When his son died he handled enormous grief with great dignity, in public at least, and I admired him for that. Where he falls down is lack of judgement and a feel for ordinary people, he appointed Coulson to overcome that deficiency and it backfired spectacularly. Cameron might think that everybody goes skiing and has friends round for supper but they just don't, for the vast majority life is a drudge and Cameron and Osborne simply don't understand that. His PR stunts at football matches are pathetic.
Cameron inspires loyalty in certain people, look at the fawning sycophancy from some on here. But the inherent flaw is that sycophants are weak, they need to be led and guided, if you surround yourself with friends and sycophants you think you're strong but you are weak.
As for Hancock, the bloke epitomises everything the public loathe in politicians, he'd be a massive nail in the tory coffin.
I don't see fawning sycophants on here, just people who (in the large) agree with what Cameron is doing. Is that so unreasonable?
You clearly don't read all of the posts. I won't name names but there are several people who have stated they favour Leave but don't want to see Cameron resign ib perceived failure.
Incidentally, what IS Cameron doing?
I'm not a Cameron sycophant, but I don't want to necessarily see him resign even though I back Leave.
Overall he's the best leadership candidate the Tories have at the moment - better than Patel or Boris or Gove. I could see a Rudd or Truss getting it next time, which would be interesting (2 female Tory leaders vs 0 for Labour).
He certainly shouldn't handle the Brexit negotiations though: I'd probably look at Gove being foreign secretary (would move Hammond to Chancellor as I suspect he'd be good at that role) and having overall leadership for the Brexit negotiations.
Cameron should then stand down once the new relationship is sorted to allow a fresh start.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
For all his limited appeal at least Corbyn is a human being. For those ideologically on the 'left' he makes sense. Just an old fashioned lefty whose time has probably passsed.
IDS is an altogether different kettle of fish. We can all agree he's hopeless but beyond that to non Tories he's also as unpleasant and disloyal a human being as even Shakespeare could have dreamt up
Your definition of a human being is someone on the political Left.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
You're talking about the right. No one does moral superiority like a right winger.
And your hyper-partisan reflex actions trump your brain, yet again.
I thought Mr Meeks thought Ms Altmann was a waste of space? No doubt he will correct me if I'm wrong.
Completely O/T: Professor Frank Furedi is talking a lot of sense about inquiries into historic child abuse and the way the justice system is being manipulated and the principle of innocence until proven guilty is being lost. On Radio 4. Worth listening to.
Anybody claiming Cameron lacks intelligence is plain silly, he's clearly highly intelligent. When his son died he handled enormous grief with great dignity, in public at least, and I admired him for that. Where he falls down is lack of judgement and a feel for ordinary people, he appointed Coulson to overcome that deficiency and it backfired spectacularly. Cameron might think that everybody goes skiing and has friends round for supper but they just don't, for the vast majority life is a drudge and Cameron and Osborne simply don't understand that. His PR stunts at football matches are pathetic.
Cameron inspires loyalty in certain people, look at the fawning sycophancy from some on here. But the inherent flaw is that sycophants are weak, they need to be led and guided, if you surround yourself with friends and sycophants you think you're strong but you are weak.
As for Hancock, the bloke epitomises everything the public loathe in politicians, he'd be a massive nail in the tory coffin.
I don't see fawning sycophants on here, just people who (in the large) agree with what Cameron is doing. Is that so unreasonable?
You must be blind , the "I'm all right Jack" well off goggle eyed right wingers on here are drooling sycophants for Cameron. Tories are like the tin man , no heart , greedy self seeking and would push their granny under a bus to get more money.
People are writing off Osborne far too quickly. There will be value in that at some point. Maybe not just yet though.
Well I'm not selling him off for a penny in the pound. IDS is bringing the bet back from "critical" to "stable" on the life support machine with this interview though.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
For all his limited appeal at least Corbyn is a human being. For those ideologically on the 'left' he makes sense. Just an old fashioned lefty whose time has probably passsed.
IDS is an altogether different kettle of fish. We can all agree he's hopeless but beyond that to non Tories he's also as unpleasant and disloyal a human being as even Shakespeare could have dreamt up
Your definition of a human being is someone on the political Left.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
You're talking about the right. No one does moral superiority like a right winger.
And your hyper-partisan reflex actions trump your brain, yet again.
If no-one mentioned parties,how can you be partisan? Sick of right wingers blind to their own prejudice and political correctness.
I thought Mr Meeks thought Ms Altmann was a waste of space? No doubt he will correct me if I'm wrong.
Completely O/T: Professor Frank Furedi is talking a lot of sense about inquiries into historic child abuse and the way the justice system is being manipulated and the principle of innocence until proven guilty is being lost. On Radio 4. Worth listening to.
He has written quite a bit on the subject, for example:
Anybody claiming Cameron lacks intelligence is plain silly, he's clearly highly intelligent. When his son died he handled enormous grief with great dignity, in public at least, and I admired him for that. Where he falls down is lack of judgement and a feel for ordinary people, he appointed Coulson to overcome that deficiency and it backfired spectacularly. Cameron might think that everybody goes skiing and has friends round for supper but they just don't, for the vast majority life is a drudge and Cameron and Osborne simply don't understand that. His PR stunts at football matches are pathetic.
Cameron inspires loyalty in certain people, look at the fawning sycophancy from some on here. But the inherent flaw is that sycophants are weak, they need to be led and guided, if you surround yourself with friends and sycophants you think you're strong but you are weak.
As for Hancock, the bloke epitomises everything the public loathe in politicians, he'd be a massive nail in the tory coffin.
I don't see fawning sycophants on here, just people who (in the large) agree with what Cameron is doing. Is that so unreasonable?
You must be blind , the "I'm all right Jack" well off goggle eyed right wingers on here are drooling sycophants for Cameron. Tories are like the tin man , no heart , greedy self seeking and would push their granny under a bus to get more money.
IDS sounded sincere and spoke from whatever he has instead of a heart. Marr said to him "disabled people will react with hollow laughter". Because whilst he seems to think he was acting to improve people's lives he really really wasn't. A man so disconnected with the impact of his reforms who then sits the moralising about the immorality if Osborne.
IDS is the living proof that Tories are a totally separate breed of sentient beings.
Could any other group anywhere ever have voted to make him their leader?
Be fair Roger, he was a better leader than Corbyn is. IDS comes across as faintly dim and rather useless, while Corbyn is just terrifying.
I know you are no fan of Corbyn, before you say it. But the implication that no other group could make such a cretinous mistake is one that was firmly disproved seven months ago.
For all his limited appeal at least Corbyn is a human being. For those ideologically on the 'left' he makes sense. Just an old fashioned lefty whose time has probably passsed.
IDS is an altogether different kettle of fish. We can all agree he's hopeless but beyond that to non Tories he's also as unpleasant and disloyal a human being as even Shakespeare could have dreamt up
Your definition of a human being is someone on the political Left.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
You're talking about the right. No one does moral superiority like a right winger.
And your hyper-partisan reflex actions trump your brain, yet again.
If no-one mentioned parties,how can you be partisan? Sick of right wingers blind to their own prejudice and political correctness.
Read my post again: I made no statement about right-wingers.
I was simply calling out Roger's prejudice calling into question the humanity of anyone not on the political Left, which I think is outrageous.
You saw that as an attack on your political philosophy, and the only instinct you know when you perceive that to be taking place is to counter-attack yourself in a partisan manner.
Wow, that was absolutely brutal from IDS. And clearly heartfelt and genuine.
The basic charge was one that a few of us have been making for a while: Osborne is focused on feeding and looking after the Tory client state. Those who do not vote Tory are not worth bothering about. Savage.
Faisal Islam Just received three supportive statements from DWP ministers for Iain Duncan Smith re Altmann: Shailesh Vara first https://t.co/nqhdclBHAv
Anybody claiming Cameron lacks intelligence is plain silly, he's clearly highly intelligent. When his son died he handled enormous grief with great dignity, in public at least, and I admired him for that. Where he falls down is lack of judgement and a feel for ordinary people, he appointed Coulson to overcome that deficiency and it backfired spectacularly. Cameron might think that everybody goes skiing and has friends round for supper but they just don't, for the vast majority life is a drudge and Cameron and Osborne simply don't understand that. His PR stunts at football matches are pathetic.
Cameron inspires loyalty in certain people, look at the fawning sycophancy from some on here. But the inherent flaw is that sycophants are weak, they need to be led and guided, if you surround yourself with friends and sycophants you think you're strong but you are weak.
As for Hancock, the bloke epitomises everything the public loathe in politicians, he'd be a massive nail in the tory coffin.
I don't see fawning sycophants on here, just people who (in the large) agree with what Cameron is doing. Is that so unreasonable?
You must be blind , the "I'm all right Jack" well off goggle eyed right wingers on here are drooling sycophants for Cameron. Tories are like the tin man , no heart , greedy self seeking and would push their granny under a bus to get more money.
Yawn. Keep playing the broken record..
I see you have nothing of value to add as ever, back under your rock.
Wow, that was absolutely brutal from IDS. And clearly heartfelt and genuine.
The basic charge was one that a few of us have been making for a while: Osborne is focused on feeding and looking after the Tory client state. Those who do not vote Tory are not worth bothering about. Savage.
How true though, just unusual for a Tory to say it.
I've often said that Cameron's background as an account exec is poor training for a PM. As a profession they've been described as 'waiters who think they're chefs'. Their job is to deliver and SELL more talented people's ideas. And the good ones can be exceptionally good
Once in a blue moon you can say 'cometh the hour cometh the man'. if ever the stage has been set for Cameron to exhibit his particular talent this referendum is it.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancelot_Slocock
His parents picked an interesting name.
"Hmm. He may get ribbed at school because he's called Slocock. What name should we give him, darling?"
"Something everyday. Innuendo-free. How about... Lancelot?"
Having been dragged into power in the coat tails of Cameron and Osborne, the Tory hard right seem to have deluded themselves that they are popular with the public and good at politics.
Uh-oh. DWP minister Shailesh Vara texted IDS last night: "Ros’s recollection does not accord with mine". (h/t @ShippersUnbound)
I still personally struggle with the idea that Cameron is a massively successful leader for scraping a paper thin majority against someone as flawed as Ed Miliband, had he been facing Gordon Brown again (or probably either Mr or Mrs Balls) he would never have got a majority, and against someone with actual talent like Blair he would have been toast. "Not as crap as Ed" would be a more accurate description, but probably not going to be that popular with the tory brown-nose brigade.
I'm waiting for IDS response then will turn off
Tim Shipman
BREAKING: Now Justin Tomlinson, junior DWP minister, backs IDS over Altmann https://t.co/M0yu9GVjNz
I think for the succession, the Tories will do what they did with Cameron, and dip down a generation. The next leader is barely forty, is my guess.
If not, Cameron needs to get the likes of Osborne and Gove to persuade their allies to calm things down.
Navigating the personal loyalty factor when reading journo stuff is key in spats like this.
If she's smart she will "evolve" to just preferring long sentences and will turn a negative with Joe Public into an electoral asset.
Saying you are going to bring immigration down to 10s of thousands then over 200,000 arrive every year under freedom of movement from within the EU is at best being disingenuous, if not outright lying, it claims you can do something you have no way of delivering.
Saying we will legislate to do X when you (should) know that 50 of your back benchers oppose it, and hoping you can brow-beat MPs at the last minute is at best foolhardy, if not downright dishonest.
Cameron appeared completely surprised that more than half his parliamentary party want to LEAVE, he plainly expected it to be the usual couple of dozen troublemakers, is that poor leadership, or does he need to sack his whips, and is employing incompetent whips actually just poor leadership. If a CEO went to the board and said the company wasn't making profits because the whipssalesforce sucked, the board would likely say getting the right whipssalesforce was part of his job.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Lamont: 'In office but not in power'
Howe: 'Bats hv been broken by the team captain'
IDS? 'Not all in this together' https://t.co/lYYuzHI3th
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35850766
This NHS story is extraordinary, especially claims that Simon Stevens was 'leant on'. Is Laws right? On another day this wd be the top story
The Brexit Tory MPs are being very noisy because they believe that they are losing the battle on the referendum.
We'll see who takes this the furthest, escalates it the most, but in this fight no one started out on the high road, and cannot honestly claim shock or upset at the other side trying to hit them back. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the budget or the EU, in this IDS fight tactically at least they've acted the same.
Good day to all.
Like plenty of left-wingers, you think there's something morally and ethically defective with anyone who isn't.
What a load of shite
Good thread, btw.
So it is hugely relevant.
He spent a lot of time back in 2002-2003 trying to get the Conservatives to focus on helping the poorest in our society, highlighting the plight of our roughest estates, and helped make social justice a policy focus that's now part of the conservative mainstream.
Ironically, I don't support him on this particular issue, and would side with Osborne (shock) instead, but I can understand why he's had enough, particularly since Osborne has zero respect for him and doesn't bother to hide it.
One thing I will bet my mortgage on: there will not be two Remainers in the final two.
In the words of Clem, not up to it.
Overall he's the best leadership candidate the Tories have at the moment - better than Patel or Boris or Gove. I could see a Rudd or Truss getting it next time, which would be interesting (2 female Tory leaders vs 0 for Labour).
He certainly shouldn't handle the Brexit negotiations though: I'd probably look at Gove being foreign secretary (would move Hammond to Chancellor as I suspect he'd be good at that role) and having overall leadership for the Brexit negotiations.
Cameron should then stand down once the new relationship is sorted to allow a fresh start.
(I suspect he will resign immediately though)
Unlike when Boris was on recently.
Lol.
Seriously ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought Mr Meeks thought Ms Altmann was a waste of space? No doubt he will correct me if I'm wrong.
Completely O/T: Professor Frank Furedi is talking a lot of sense about inquiries into historic child abuse and the way the justice system is being manipulated and the principle of innocence until proven guilty is being lost. On Radio 4. Worth listening to.
Either that or has been got at over the last 24 hours.
Ouch
I'll say it again: I think IDS really genuinely believes in welfare reform, and is genuinely frustrated he hasn't got anyway.
At worst, he hates Osborne, and is disappointed in Cameron, but I don't think he's scorched earth.
Sometimes the media hype and drama is just that.
IDS holding his own and laying it all out on Marr this morning. First time I've seen him talk with vigor and from the heart.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/operation-midland-treating-fiction-as-fact/17473#.Vu5yzBBFDqA
The Marr show is a weird old curates egg. Much as I might love Natalie Merchant, why would I want to combine her on a show with IDS???
IDS is no Sir Geoffrey Howe
No, but he has laid out in no uncertain terms why he resigned. Not everyone is a treacherous, back stabbing killer, like Howe.
I was simply calling out Roger's prejudice calling into question the humanity of anyone not on the political Left, which I think is outrageous.
You saw that as an attack on your political philosophy, and the only instinct you know when you perceive that to be taking place is to counter-attack yourself in a partisan manner.
The basic charge was one that a few of us have been making for a while: Osborne is focused on feeding and looking after the Tory client state. Those who do not vote Tory are not worth bothering about. Savage.
Just received three supportive statements from DWP ministers for Iain Duncan Smith re Altmann: Shailesh Vara first https://t.co/nqhdclBHAv
Yes, he's not the smartest Tory in the party, and he was a huge failure as leader, but, give him a break: he's not an unpleasant or nasty man.
Once in a blue moon you can say 'cometh the hour cometh the man'. if ever the stage has been set for Cameron to exhibit his particular talent this referendum is it.
I think many here will be surprised