See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
Why? To spite us for leaving?
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
I think the reality that it would be good for the residual EU, and for us, would be quickly realised as they could federate unhindered. So punitive sanctions are unlikely.
The EU is going to still need the UK as an ally whether we are in or out.
European leaders are so exasperated with Britain's demands they they are privately saying that "if Brits want to leave, let them leave", the President of the European Parliament has said.
Quite a few want us to go, and its not in anyone's interest for us to go asn an enemy, we are the fifth largest economy in the world and we are a hell of a big market with a long international reach, including a security council seat. After some wounded words for a few weeks, everyone will want to be friends still.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
Surely, it makes sense to include left-wingers in the Leave campaign?
There are scores of left wingers that could make the left wing case better than George Galloway.
I loathe the man.
You could be mistaken for giving the impression of looking to find excuses to vote "Remain".
Politics, like war, breed strange allies, the two people I most loathe in British politics are on my side in this referendum, it is a little disconcerting and will take some getting used to.
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
Why? To spite us for leaving?
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
Whilst the departure of the UK would be a shock and cause initial hysteria, I expect that would calm down and real politik to take over within a few months. We have 2 years under Article 50 to negotiate exit. You can point to EU politicians who threaten us with the four horsemen of the apocalypse. You can also point to others, like Schulz, who think that if we want to leave we should leave and be allowed to do so.
I think the reality that it would be good for the residual EU, and for us, would be quickly realised as they could federate unhindered. So punitive sanctions are unlikely.
The EU is going to still need the UK as an ally whether we are in or out.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
It would, but I just don't see the EU tearing up treaties and throwing its toys out of the pram just because we've decided to Leave. It makes no sense.
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
One could train anyone to do it? You don't need to be of subcontinental extraction.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
Surely, it makes sense to include left-wingers in the Leave campaign?
There are scores of left wingers that could make the left wing case better than George Galloway.
I loathe the man.
So do I but if you're basing your vote on whether or not people you don't like are on the same side as you, you will always find a good reason not to do it.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
It means that can't import relatives that can be paid a pittance, and instead might have to pay a decent rate and provide training on the job, the horror!
Would Camerons camps in Kent be full of Brits wanting to get into France
No, but they might be full of ISIS sleepers, and yet he appears to be telling us that even if the stream of migrants is KNOWN to contain these sort of elements, we cant actually defend our borders or prevent large camps of immigrants in our country without the help of the French. Well its a view I suppose, but might be a hard sell on the doorstep.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
It means that can't import relatives that can be paid a pittance, and instead might have to pay a decent rate and provide training on the job, the horror!
A significant element of truth of course, and it’s good that the children are moving out into other occupations. Apparently though they tried training courses and couldn’t get anywhere enough “apprentices.” Not personally, a problem for me; I don’t eat in such places more than once or twice a year.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
Curry houses could import "chefs" from Bangladesh , pay them small wages, arrange their accommodation and tie them to the employer. They often didn't speak English so they were unlikely to move into new areas of employment. The Brits like curries so I don't see why by paying much better wages, the houses couldn't recruit and retain staff from the indigenous population. Your curry would cost a bit more.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
It means that can't import relatives that can be paid a pittance, and instead might have to pay a decent rate and provide training on the job, the horror!
I agree with all of this.
I would be prepared to see the cost of Indian meals rise correspondingly, of course, but I wonder whether that downside would be as stoically endured by many of their customers.
JJ Are3 you suggesting that illegals would commandeer or steal the ferry..really..they still have to berth the bugger..
Or swim across to the ship, use smaller boats, etc, etc.
And it is just one possible mechanism: a few already managed to get on a ferry at Calais a few weeks ago.
You seem to be massively underestimating the desire of these people to make it across to the UK.
But I think it's much more likely (though still unlikely) that supporters charter a ship, and the French authorities say they don't have the resources to stop them boarding it. An associate of mine helps out at the Jungle, and he gives the impression he would do anything to help people across. He's being a bit of an idiot IMO ...
Then ship in question wouldn't be allowed to dock. This really is a daft argument.
It doesn't necessarily need to dock. And a ship is just one mechanism by which it *might* occur.
Again, you don't seem to realise how desperate these people are to get over to the UK. Some of these people will be the same ones who will have crossed the Med in all sorts of unseaworthy craft. If you get them near shore many would use anything available to get to land.
The only daftness is exhibited by those who think leaving the EU will instantly cure the migrant problem. What it might do is give us more freedom to act: but that will have to be in partnership with other states, not against them.
As I wrote a few days ago, I would expect to see EU influence make itself felt in the Scottish and Irish questions.
Yes that was rubbish then and it is rubbish now as well
You don't think Brussels would relish the humiliation of a big part of a leaving country rejoining the family and being rescued from nativist Gallowayism-Farageism?
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
Whilst the departure of the UK
I think the reality that it would be good for the residual EU, and for us, would be quickly realised as they could federate unhindered. So punitive sanctions are unlikely.
The EU is going to still need the UK as an ally whether we are in or out.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
It would, but I just don't see the EU tearing up treaties and throwing its toys out of the pram just because we've decided to Leave. It makes no sense.
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
They might not tear up treaties but they might turn a deaf(er) ear to our input. Currently making its way through the EU is the latest financial services regulation document, for example. It is a beast and the UK has lobbied hard for some measures and against others.
My concern is whether we would be at the table if we left the EU for such negotiations. Well of course our viewpoint would be heard, somehow, but those opposed could easily retort: well they're not even members.
Bilateral negotiations with each EU member on the issue would be absurd, which would leave us accepting or rejecting the treaty as a whole.
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
Why? To spite us for leaving?
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
Whilst the departure of the UK would be a shock and cause initial hysteria, I expect that would calm down and real politik to take over within a few months. We have 2 years under Article 50 to negotiate exit. You can point to EU politicians who threaten us with the four horsemen of the apocalypse. You can also point to others, like Schulz, who think that if we want to leave we should leave and be allowed to do so.
I think the reality that it would be good for the residual EU, and for us, would be quickly realised as they could federate unhindered. So punitive sanctions are unlikely.
The EU is going to still need the UK as an ally whether we are in or out.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
It would, but I just don't see the EU tearing up treaties and throwing its toys out of the pram just because we've decided to Leave. It makes no sense.
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
The last sentence won't be acceptable on our side will it? Post-Leave I expect UK opinion will swing dramatically in a Eurosceptic direction. It will become part of who we are (skirts around saying "identity") that we told the EU to get lost. Even people who are currently pro-Remain will become anti.
Well, I guess I expect things to be more antagonistic on both sides than you do.
I think Ed has other aims as an ex leader. He wants to use his intellectual self confidence (oh! how I miss typing these expressions!) to form a powerful and inclusive winning argument on one of the great topics and social needs of the day.
I expect him to be like IDS on steroids. To contribute on a topic such as 'cost of living'.
He will be put forward as a compassionate thoughtful well researched intelligent radical thinker with the added tag of respected statesman providing appealing solutions to a pressing problem. (Be good if he could do it.)
The above suggests he is done with leadership ambition, but 'for the good of the party' is a strong motivator.
The biggest hurdle for him to cross and the hardest for him to convince that he should be leader again? Justine??
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
It means that can't import relatives that can be paid a pittance, and instead might have to pay a decent rate and provide training on the job, the horror!
I agree with all of this.
I would be prepared to see the cost of Indian meals rise correspondingly, of course, but I wonder whether that downside would be as stoically endured by many of their customers.
If they get too expansive, customers will just eat it less frequently and move onto other dining types. It's not as if we have a shortage of restaurants!
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
I reckon they could find more British born willing to work there if they gave them a decent wage and treated them better. I had a mate who worked as a kitchen hand at an Indian restaurant and he was ridiculously abused by his boss.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
Curry houses could import "chefs" from Bangladesh , pay them small wages, arrange their accommodation and tie them to the employer. They often didn't speak English so they were unlikely to move into new areas of employment. The Brits like curries so I don't see why by paying much better wages, the houses couldn't recruit and retain staff from the indigenous population. Your curry would cost a bit more.
Our local curry house is already more expensive for a meal than the local pubs, most of which serve good quality food.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
I reckon they could find more British born willing to work there if they gave them a decent wage and treated them better. I had a mate who worked as a kitchen hand at an Indian restaurant and he was ridiculously abused by his boss.
"The Bangladesh Caterers Association, the trade body that represents curry houses in Britain, says the shortage of chefs is threatening the future of an industry employing more than 100,000 people on high streets across Britain, with predictions that up to a third of restaurants are facing closure."
Alternatively it could be that curry has peaked and other forms of (healthier) food are now in vogue.
And their continued serving of cooking lagers like Cobra etc don't help.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
It means that can't import relatives that can be paid a pittance, and instead might have to pay a decent rate and provide training on the job, the horror!
I agree with all of this.
I would be prepared to see the cost of Indian meals rise correspondingly, of course, but I wonder whether that downside would be as stoically endured by many of their customers.
If they get too expansive, customers will just eat it less frequently and move onto other dining types. It's not as if we have a shortage of restaurants!
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
Surely, it makes sense to include left-wingers in the Leave campaign?
There are scores of left wingers that could make the left wing case better than George Galloway.
I loathe the man.
So do I but if you're basing your vote on whether or not people you don't like are on the same side as you, you will always find a good reason not to do it.
JJ The Med is a different situation to the Channel..and we do still have very active navy..they would simply be towed back to France..
Would they?
You seem utterly unable to understand that these people *want* to get over here more than we (as a nation) want to keep them out. They will find a way, and it's easier for us to prevent them with French help.
OT. Listening to Radio 4 I heard a small piece on the Telegraph's obit of Terry Wogan. Apparently they painted an unpleasant picture. This seemed unlikely so I read it and it was true. They had!
In fact it just described a truth which is that celebs get spoilt the more famous they get but it was crudely unsubtle nonetheless (and anonymous)
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
Why? To spite us for leaving?
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
snipt.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
It would, but I just don't see the EU tearing up treaties and throwing its toys out of the pram just because we've decided to Leave. It makes no sense.
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
The last sentence won't be acceptable on our side will it? Post-Leave I expect UK opinion will swing dramatically in a Eurosceptic direction. It will become part of who we are (skirts around saying "identity") that we told the EU to get lost. Even people who are currently pro-Remain will become anti.
Well, I guess I expect things to be more antagonistic on both sides than you do.
If we leave we will join the EEA and things will be very little different to what the negotiations are likely to achieve. The Outers will always be with us - no solution will please them all. The arguments will only just begin if we leave and the anti immigrant anti asian anti arab anti coloured anti muslim anti breast feeding anti NHS anti every pet prejudice under the sun will only grow in volume.
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
Surely, it makes sense to include left-wingers in the Leave campaign?
There are scores of left wingers that could make the left wing case better than George Galloway.
I loathe the man.
You could be mistaken for giving the impression of looking to find excuses to vote "Remain".
Politics, like war, breed strange allies, the two people I most loathe in British politics are on my side in this referendum, it is a little disconcerting and will take some getting used to.
The important point to remember is that although they might be on the same side of you in the referendum it doesn't make them one iota more likely to get any closer to power or get the rest of their agenda into law. Indeed one could argue that, at least in the case of Farage, a LEAVE result will lessen his chances of making any further political headway.
You will never vote leave, you are too much of a party loyalist, when you are in the voting booth your pencil will adopt a mind of its own and cross in the REMAIN box When the EUParl votes to overturn half of what Dave agreed after the referendum you will kick yourself, but it will be too late by then.
I want to be able to dispute that but I think that's right.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
I reckon they could find more British born willing to work there if they gave them a decent wage and treated them better. I had a mate who worked as a kitchen hand at an Indian restaurant and he was ridiculously abused by his boss.
"The Bangladesh Caterers Association, the trade body that represents curry houses in Britain, says the shortage of chefs is threatening the future of an industry employing more than 100,000 people on high streets across Britain, with predictions that up to a third of restaurants are facing closure."
Alternatively it could be that curry has peaked and other forms of (healthier) food are now in vogue.
And their continued serving of cooking lagers like Cobra etc don't help.
We could do with more restaurants serving distinctive, high-quality, regionally authentic Indian food and charging a higher price for it. We could stand to lose the bog-standard curry house serving fart-inducing slop.
Germany has been willing to overlook serious breaches of law from Russia to maintain relations, and France does deals with very questionable African leaders. Yet these same countries would treat us as 'hostile state' because public didn't support government's position to stay in??
After Cameron played the Islamophobia card this morning, it feels like Remain side is desperate.
Are you awake? Its the outers playing the islamophobIa card. According to them millions of muslims are going to swarm all over us from Germany in great bunches.
JJ I would live to have a large apartment overlooking Sydney Harbour and the Bridge..so effin what..The Migrants will be kept away even without the very limited help of the French It is their problem..not ours and the deeply felt desire of the Canp inhabitants to get on to UK benefits is really no concern of ours..its just tough shit..
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
snipt.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
It would, but I just don't see the EU tearing up treaties and throwing its toys out of the pram just because we've decided to Leave. It makes no sense.
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
The last sentence won't be acceptable on our side will it? Post-Leave I expect UK opinion will swing dramatically in a Eurosceptic direction. It will become part of who we are (skirts around saying "identity") that we told the EU to get lost. Even people who are currently pro-Remain will become anti.
Well, I guess I expect things to be more antagonistic on both sides than you do.
If we leave we will join the EEA and things will be very little different to what the negotiations are likely to achieve. The Outers will always be with us - no solution will please them all. The arguments will only just begin if we leave and the anti immigrant anti asian anti arab anti coloured anti muslim anti breast feeding anti NHS anti every pet prejudice under the sun will only grow in volume.
I'm repeating myself, but I don't think EEA membership is likely, at least in the short/medium term, post-Leave. It would be hugely controversial politically and would only get through Parliament with opposition votes, which would be suicidal for the new Tory leader.
Germany has been willing to overlook serious breaches of law from Russia to maintain relations, and France does deals with very questionable African leaders. Yet these same countries would treat us as 'hostile state' because public didn't support government's position to stay in??
After Cameron played the Islamophobia card this morning, it feels like Remain side is desperate.
Are you awake? Its the outers playing the islamophobIa card. According to them millions of muslims are going to swarm all over us from Germany in great bunches.
So Cameron saying the jungle is coming to Kent is what - anti camper ?
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
Good morning all. It's no surprise that Cameron's embarking on 'Project Fear'. However, he does seem to have a bit of a tin ear at the moment - perhaps poorly advised?
I appreciate that we all flirt with the fallacy of imagining everyone thinking like ourselves, but this Calais gambit is so obviously nonsense, I wonder who he thinks it will play to?
See this is already making me question my intention to vote Leave.
Nigel_Farage: Glad to see @georgegalloway putting forward superb left-wing case for leaving the EU. We must all work together to Leave EU. #bbcsp
Surely, it makes sense to include left-wingers in the Leave campaign?
There are scores of left wingers that could make the left wing case better than George Galloway.
I loathe the man.
You could be mistaken for giving the impression of looking to find excuses to vote "Remain".
Politics, like war, breed strange allies, the two people I most loathe in British politics are on my side in this referendum, it is a little disconcerting and will take some getting used to.
The important point to remember is that although they might be on the same side of you in the referendum it doesn't make them one iota more likely to get any closer to power or get the rest of their agenda into law. Indeed one could argue that, at least in the case of Farage, a LEAVE result will lessen his chances of making any further political headway.
I agree with that but there's no doubt that post-leave politics would be unpredictable.
It wouldn't have been surprising for a post-independence Scotland to lurch to the right, confounding those who thought they were voting for a socialist utopia. It's difficult to say which way the UK post-brexit would turn.
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
Germany has been willing to overlook serious breaches of law from Russia to maintain relations, and France does deals with very questionable African leaders. Yet these same countries would treat us as 'hostile state' because public didn't support government's position to stay in??
After Cameron played the Islamophobia card this morning, it feels like Remain side is desperate.
Are you awake? Its the outers playing the islamophobIa card. According to them millions of muslims are going to swarm all over us from Germany in great bunches.
I don't recall any major politician on outer side doong this. But Cameron has just given then the ok to with his ridiculous claim the Jungle will come to the UK. He has taken debate into the gutter and he will be beaten there.
The inner campaign is such a mess. The two big fights they've made in the last week have been on what Thatcher woud have voted and how many Muslims will get here. Does anyone sensible believe that is good territory for the campaign to be fought on, from Remain perspective??
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
Curry houses could import "chefs" from Bangladesh , pay them small wages, arrange their accommodation and tie them to the employer. They often didn't speak English so they were unlikely to move into new areas of employment. The Brits like curries so I don't see why by paying much better wages, the houses couldn't recruit and retain staff from the indigenous population. Your curry would cost a bit more.
Anecdote on this: when I was on benefit myself briefly in 2010, the English-looking bloke at the next desk, an unemployed chef, told the adviser that he'd like to take a two-week course in Indian cooking as he'd heard there were a lot of jobs in that. The adviser said curtly that if he did that he'd be classed as unavailable for work and therefore have his benefit stopped: "just concentrate on getting a job with what you can do, don't try to change it". Didn't seem to me to be giving the right message.
Conversely, a friend who ran an Indian restaurant said two years later that he'd tried advertising in the trade press for a general chef and he'd offered training in Indian cooking. He'd had zero applications (perhaps he wasn't offering to pay enough, dunno).
In general, I think we underestimate the lack of flexibility in the system at the bottom of the scale - most people don't instinctively retrain and they aren't necessarily encouraged if they want to.
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
On topic: I think the premise is wrong. The next Labour leader, whether another of the hard left or a unifying figure, doesn't need to be someone of cabinet experience. In fact he or she is very unlikely to be so.
We could do with more restaurants serving distinctive, high-quality, regionally authentic Indian food and charging a higher price for it. We could stand to lose the bog-standard curry house serving fart-inducing slop.
There are a ridiculous number of generic curry houses. There is little originality when it comes to the food available. I would argue that the failure to innovate has played a large part in their downfall.
Just using London as an example, Dishoom is incredibly popular at the moment with regular queues well out the door. The waiting staff are from all over the world. There is no reason why they could not employ similar staff in the kitchen.
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
Not Magic Seaweed, we use that all the time for planning purposes along with the Met Office, Fugero and Meteogroup.
But the idea that 14m is exceptional.
In the last two weeks west of Shetlands we have had significant wave heights (that is the steady background waves) of 50 - 60ft and Maximum wave heights of 80ft with a swell of 30-35 ft.
14m happens, literally, every day for much of the winter.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
Even if we take your insight at face value, it means that the Prime Minister, for whatever reason, has sunk to their level. Has he never heard of the notion: "Never pick an argument with an idiot - you get dragged down to their level, and they win on experience..."?
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
Is 'BOOers' the new name for Leave supporters?? I thought BOO was just one of the groups on the leave side?? Whats wrong with 'Leavers'?
If bookies were to operate a book on the sack race for football club Chairmen in the same way as they do for Managers, then Ed Balls, the recently installed head honcho at Norwich City, would surely be the odds-on favourite following the club's recent disastrous sequence of results. What are the chances that fellow Labourite Delia Smith will be cooking his bacon before long?
The Chairman in this case is not the owner though is he. Who owns Norwich, who is the chief exec who actually makes the decisions? In this case I suspect Ball's role is mainly as a front man and looking at the wider aspects of the club - not that I am suggesting he will be of any use at this. BTW - take Chelsea - its owner is Abramovich, but he is not Chairman - that is Bruce Buck. He is hardly in day to day control.
When you look at the success of Leicester in the way they have found players for not much money and turned them into successful parts of a winning side then there are a lot of people in charge of bigger clubs who should sack themselves.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
Have the French said they'll repudiate the Le Touquet Treaty, if we vote to Leave?
France can terminate on two years' notice. It's reasonable to assume that it would if Britain left the EU. It doesn't get much out of it.
Why? To spite us for leaving?
I see no reason why the UK couldn't continue to have strong bilateral relations with France in the event of leaving.
We have a defence treaty with them as well that is in their national interest.
It's fanciful to imagine that Britain can leave the EU without severe short term damage to our relations with other EU countries.
Whilst the departure of the UK would be a shock and cause initial hysteria, I expect that would calm down and real politik to take over within a few months. We have 2 years under Article 50 to negotiate exit. You can point to EU politicians who threaten us with the four horsemen of the apocalypse. You can also point to others, like Schulz, who think that if we want to leave we should leave and be allowed to do so.
I think the reality that it would be good for the residual EU, and for us, would be quickly realised as they could federate unhindered. So punitive sanctions are unlikely.
The EU is going to still need the UK as an ally whether we are in or out.
I'm now clear in my mind that it would be good for the EU for Britain to leave. What I'm not clear about is whether it would be good for Britain for Britain to leave.
I think you're far too optimistic about how quickly realpolitik would take over. I'd date the turning point of Britain's relations with the rest of the EU to Black Wednesday. This would be a far bigger shock than that to those relations.
Itsystem.
The
I would willingly pay c.4bn a year to the EU to facilitate a free market trading deal that including migration controls, if that's what it took to sweeten it.
It's much less than we pay at the moment but we ain't going to get everything we want for free.
The EU have been sick of Britain's equivocation for years. Once we finally make up our minds to Leave (if we Remain the grumbles will continue) I expect that it's just as likely many EU leaders might breathe a sigh of relief.
What they care about is the stability of the residual EU, its other more flaky members and the eurozone. We can offer to help with that from the outside, or we can decide to form our own outer trading ring in a beefed up EFTA that might look decidedly attractive by comparison.
We could do with more restaurants serving distinctive, high-quality, regionally authentic Indian food and charging a higher price for it. We could stand to lose the bog-standard curry house serving fart-inducing slop.
There are a ridiculous number of generic curry houses. There is little originality when it comes to the food available. I would argue that the failure to innovate has played a large part in their downfall.
Just using London as an example, Dishoom is incredibly popular at the moment with regular queues well out the door. The waiting staff are from all over the world. There is no reason why they could not employ similar staff in the kitchen.
London is probably exceptional in comparison to the rest of the country but I am amazed at how many restaurants that are only ever a 1/4 full can survive for so long. I suspect if curry chef wages were increased, productivity would increase rather than the price people pay.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
I reckon they could find more British born willing to work there if they gave them a decent wage and treated them better. I had a mate who worked as a kitchen hand at an Indian restaurant and he was ridiculously abused by his boss.
f restaurants are facing closure."
Alternatively it could be that curry has peaked and other forms of (healthier) food are now in vogue.
And their continued serving of cooking lagers like Cobra etc don't help.
This is one of the most absurd justifications for extra migration ive yet to see. Even an MP brought it up in Parliament.
There is nothing tricky about making dishes that are served in Indian restaurants in the UK. The mixes are all pre made, it's about as difficult as serving low to medium grade pub food.
Not that isnt hard work, as these kind of jobs can be. But there is nothing here that cant be taught in college or on the job in a few months.
Youth unemployment amongst people who are indian/pakistani/bangladeshi is 46%, a pattern that is replicated in the adult population.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
You acknowledge Cameron is talking ****? It's a start, I suppose.
One has to at least consider the possibility that if we vote Leave, the rest of the EU will treat us as a hostile State, and impose a variety of sanctions on us. These could be economic, and they could also involve using migrants as a weapon against us. Though, one would have to question whether it was worth remaining a member of such a club.
Saying they might 'treat us as a hostile state' is far too strong, but of course they will not have any particular reason to do us any special favours.
The whole question of the mechanics and economic and political fall-out from a Leave result in the referendum is one which has received surprisingly little coverage. I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently, and I think there are a lot of different aspects to it both in UK and in European politics. If I get time I might submit a guest article on the subject.
OMG- is this article satire? Labour looking to Margaret Beckett or Ed Miliband. Meeks you really are taking the piss, or you have lost your sanity, or perhaps you have lost any kind of credibility.
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
OMG- is this article satire? Labour looking to Margaret Beckett or Ed Miliband. Meeks you really are taking the piss, or you have lost your sanity, or perhaps you have lost any kind of credibility.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
Richard N siding with Cameron. How surprising.
MP_SE ignorant of the meaning of the word 'bogus' and unable to understand that I wasn't siding with Cameron. How surprising.
OMG- is this article satire? Labour looking to Margaret Beckett or Ed Miliband. Meeks you really are taking the piss, or you have lost your sanity, or perhaps you have lost any kind of credibility.
A little of column A, a little of column B, nothing in column C to lose.
Curry houses could import "chefs" from Bangladesh , pay them small wages, arrange their accommodation and tie them to the employer. They often didn't speak English so they were unlikely to move into new areas of employment. The Brits like curries so I don't see why by paying much better wages, the houses couldn't recruit and retain staff from the indigenous population. Your curry would cost a bit more.
Anecdote on this: when I was on benefit myself briefly in 2010, the English-looking bloke at the next desk, an unemployed chef, told the adviser that he'd like to take a two-week course in Indian cooking as he'd heard there were a lot of jobs in that. The adviser said curtly that if he did that he'd be classed as unavailable for work and therefore have his benefit stopped: "just concentrate on getting a job with what you can do, don't try to change it". Didn't seem to me to be giving the right message.
Conversely, a friend who ran an Indian restaurant said two years later that he'd tried advertising in the trade press for a general chef and he'd offered training in Indian cooking. He'd had zero applications (perhaps he wasn't offering to pay enough, dunno).
In general, I think we underestimate the lack of flexibility in the system at the bottom of the scale - most people don't instinctively retrain and they aren't necessarily encouraged if they want to.
"In general, I think we underestimate the lack of flexibility in the system at the bottom of the scale."
Too right. Unless you are one of the people at the bottom of the system and then you are all too well aware how restrictive the state is over these matters.
OMG- is this article satire? Labour looking to Margaret Beckett or Ed Miliband. Meeks you really are taking the piss, or you have lost your sanity, or perhaps you have lost any kind of credibility.
It is a 200/1 shot which Alastair has stuck two pounds on, which he concedes he will never likely to see again.
The key point from the article is this
but if Labour is to unite around a consensus candidate of stature, the options are very limited indeed.
As ever, politics is full of hilarity. Today's superbly funny spectacle is the BOOers bitching about Cameron making a bogus argument about Calais which is the exact inverse of the bogus argument which the BOOers have made on the same topic.
Richard N siding with Cameron. How surprising.
MP_SE ignorant of the meaning of the word 'bogus' and unable to understand that I wasn't siding with Cameron. How surprising.
It was a safe assumption.
By the way, do you know if we paid that 1.7bn bill to the EU in full?
I mean the Calais scare is so off the radar. Once in the UK those 5,000 or so would simply vanish into the fabric of the UK economy (as too would likely be the many thousands more who the French would be keen to push on). Why the hell would they want to hand around Folkestone in a squalid camp?
The only way the Cameron logic works on this scare is if we have many thousands in the UK who want to get into France via Folkestone. Yes- we do have that. The annual exodus of middle England to their second homes in the Loire Valley. That would be a remarkable sight indeed.
Good morning all. It's no surprise that Cameron's embarking on 'Project Fear'. However, he does seem to have a bit of a tin ear at the moment - perhaps poorly advised?
I appreciate that we all flirt with the fallacy of imagining everyone thinking like ourselves, but this Calais gambit is so obviously nonsense, I wonder who he thinks it will play to?
I admire anyone who has the confidence to put up a 200/1 tip (especially this one), but I won't be rushing to back Ed. I think Alastair is being a tiny bit too dismissive about that losing the last election thing factor. To be fair, he was only 100/1 with Ladbrokes, but I'll push that out to 200/1 if anyone else wants a bet.
If i had to pick a 200/1 political betting selection right now, I might have a go at Kasich to beat Sanders in our US Straight Forecast betting. Seems a lot more likely.
Had an “Indian” (actually of course Bangladeshi) takeway last week and while waiting was reading one of the trade magazines. Lots of complaints about how Britain’s immigration policy will be the death of the curry house, because the children of the immigrants don’t want to be chefs and it’s impossiblde to either recruit locally or import chefs from Bangladesh.
I reckon they could find more British born willing to work there if they gave them a decent wage and treated them better. I had a mate who worked as a kitchen hand at an Indian restaurant and he was ridiculously abused by his boss.
"The Bangladesh Caterers Association, the trade body that represents curry houses in Britain, says the shortage of chefs is threatening the future of an industry employing more than 100,000 people on high streets across Britain, with predictions that up to a third of restaurants are facing closure."
Alternatively it could be that curry has peaked and other forms of (healthier) food are now in vogue.
And their continued serving of cooking lagers like Cobra etc don't help.
We could do with more restaurants serving distinctive, high-quality, regionally authentic Indian food and charging a higher price for it. We could stand to lose the bog-standard curry house serving fart-inducing slop.
The curry shop we got our carryout from on Friday certainly needs a new chef. Ideally one who is not prone to epileptic fits when holding the curry and chilli powder over the sauce.
Storm Imogen: The sea state could reach "phenomenal" - the highest level on the World Meteorological Scale - at times around western coasts, with waves of more than 14m (46ft) possible.
I admire anyone who has the confidence to put up a 200/1 tip (especially this one), but I won't be rushing to back Ed. I think Alastair is being a tiny bit too dismissive about that losing the last election thing factor. To be fair, he was only 100/1 with Ladbrokes, but I'll push that out to 200/1 if anyone else wants a bet.
If i had to pick a 200/1 political betting selection right now, I might have a go at Kasich to beat Sanders in our US Straight Forecast betting. Seems a lot more likely.
Seems to be a coordinate assault by Remain today on several fronts on migration.
Interesting thing, as Guardian feed points out, is that the PM is no longer bothering to try and sell his proposals.
Cameron's a busted flush. That much is obvious.
Just like in April 2015.
Cameron's lost a lot of people that were with him in April 2015. Mainly just highly politically interested right now, but I think public usually follows later.
I mean the Calais scare is so off the radar. Once in the UK those 5,000 or so would simply vanish into the fabric of the UK economy (as too would likely be the many thousands more who the French would be keen to push on). Why the hell would they want to hand around Folkestone in a squalid camp?
The only way the Cameron logic works on this scare is if we have many thousands in the UK who want to get into France via Folkestone. Yes- we do have that. The annual exodus of middle England to their second homes in the Loire Valley. That would be a remarkable sight indeed.
Good morning all. It's no surprise that Cameron's embarking on 'Project Fear'. However, he does seem to have a bit of a tin ear at the moment - perhaps poorly advised?
I appreciate that we all flirt with the fallacy of imagining everyone thinking like ourselves, but this Calais gambit is so obviously nonsense, I wonder who he thinks it will play to?
Seems to be a coordinate assault by Remain today on several fronts on migration.
Interesting thing, as Guardian feed points out, is that the PM is no longer bothering to try and sell his proposals.
Cameron's a busted flush. That much is obvious.
Just like in April 2015.
The big difference being people will feel that there is no chance of a Labour government, no worries about Ed Milliband or Alex Salmond, and not really bothered if Cameron quits from the result because he is going anyway.
Even if we take your insight at face value, it means that the Prime Minister, for whatever reason, has sunk to their level. Has he never heard of the notion: "Never pick an argument with an idiot - you get dragged down to their level, and they win on experience..."?
I don't think that Cameron, and the Remain side generally, can simply ignore the utter nonsense (but politically potent emotion) which the Leave side deploy on migration, especally since the Leave side can't even decide whether they want to retain free movement or not. Given that, I guess the question is: do you answer with logic, or fight populist emotional nonsense with emotional nonsense?
Objectively speaking, both sides are deploying bogus arguments. Welcome to politics.
Seems to be a coordinate assault by Remain today on several fronts on migration.
Interesting thing, as Guardian feed points out, is that the PM is no longer bothering to try and sell his proposals.
The last Yougov poll is probably an outlier. What is clear, is that the proposals that the PM came back with were supposed to seal the deal, but have in reality, done the opposite.
As much as Cameron's jungle scare tactic really doesn't stand up to scrutiny (to political pbCOM asberger types)- it really is quite brilliant politics, using the imagery of the camps to whack the Brexit campaign. It also shows Cameron will do what it takes to keep Britain in the EC- and we all know how Dave can use emotion and manipulation to bat his corner if he has too.
Cameron proves yet again that he is the standout politician of the post Blair crop, something that we all know. He will be such a loss to the Tory party.
Look around. Have you not noticed the posters who supported him then who have turned away from him now? Osborne looks like a prize chump too.
PB.com was full of people saying he was a busted flush before the GE. Osborne's reputation goes up and down with economic confidence.
If the referendum produces a Remain result (at least, a reasonably decisive one), the reputation of both of them will soar. If the result is Leave, that's the end of the Osborne-Cameron era of Conservative politics.
Even if we take your insight at face value, it means that the Prime Minister, for whatever reason, has sunk to their level. Has he never heard of the notion: "Never pick an argument with an idiot - you get dragged down to their level, and they win on experience..."?
Objectively speaking, both sides are deploying bogus arguments. Welcome to politics.
And in Cameron doing so, he is throwing away his aces. I like the guy enormously, am delighted he is Prime Minister - but I don't enjoy having my intelligence insulted by him. He'd be better saying nothing and staying above the fray.
That no-one seems to be there to make his case for him might just suggest he has not even convinced his own side he has come back with enough with which to go into battle....
Comments
At least outside the EU we have far more options on border control, including the potential reduction of 100k in net migration:
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/371
Masterful trolling, only the name is a giveaway. Although @LabourList types will think he's a fellow traveller. https://t.co/H986yj3nuS
For one thing we have useful defence, fiscal and economic strengths that are very useful to the EU and they have many citizens who work here and trading links with London.
I'd expect a lot of noise and fuss pour encourager les autres but a practical deal behind the scenes.
That will probably involve us continuing to pay quite a bit of cash into the system.
Yes that was rubbish then and it is rubbish now as well
Not personally, a problem for me; I don’t eat in such places more than once or twice a year.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/feb/08/cameron-accused-scaremongering-brexit-calais-jungle-england-politics-live
I would be prepared to see the cost of Indian meals rise correspondingly, of course, but I wonder whether that downside would be as stoically endured by many of their customers.
Again, you don't seem to realise how desperate these people are to get over to the UK. Some of these people will be the same ones who will have crossed the Med in all sorts of unseaworthy craft. If you get them near shore many would use anything available to get to land.
The only daftness is exhibited by those who think leaving the EU will instantly cure the migrant problem. What it might do is give us more freedom to act: but that will have to be in partnership with other states, not against them.
1) Le Touquet Treaty regulating UKV+I operations in Calais/Gare du Nord is entirely separate from EU Treaties.
2) Even if France terminates Le Touquet Treaty, there would still be no jungle in Dover/St Pancras, just as there is none currently at LHR.
3) UK fines airlines transporting passengers with no visa: thus airlines police our air borders. The same would be done with rail and sea.
My concern is whether we would be at the table if we left the EU for such negotiations. Well of course our viewpoint would be heard, somehow, but those opposed could easily retort: well they're not even members.
Bilateral negotiations with each EU member on the issue would be absurd, which would leave us accepting or rejecting the treaty as a whole.
Well, I guess I expect things to be more antagonistic on both sides than you do.
I think Ed has other aims as an ex leader. He wants to use his intellectual self confidence (oh! how I miss typing these expressions!) to form a powerful and inclusive winning argument on one of the great topics and social needs of the day.
I expect him to be like IDS on steroids. To contribute on a topic such as 'cost of living'.
He will be put forward as a compassionate thoughtful well researched intelligent radical thinker with the added tag of respected statesman providing appealing solutions to a pressing problem. (Be good if he could do it.)
The above suggests he is done with leadership ambition, but 'for the good of the party' is a strong motivator.
The biggest hurdle for him to cross and the hardest for him to convince that he should be leader again? Justine??
"The Bangladesh Caterers Association, the trade body that represents curry houses in Britain, says the shortage of chefs is threatening the future of an industry employing more than 100,000 people on high streets across Britain, with predictions that up to a third of restaurants are facing closure."
Alternatively it could be that curry has peaked and other forms of (healthier) food are now in vogue.
And their continued serving of cooking lagers like Cobra etc don't help.
Paging @odysseanproject, @Arron_banks, @matthew_elliott, @vote_leave, @LeaveEUOfficial, @Grassroots_Out. https://t.co/rITCUfXuuC
You seem utterly unable to understand that these people *want* to get over here more than we (as a nation) want to keep them out. They will find a way, and it's easier for us to prevent them with French help.
OT. Listening to Radio 4 I heard a small piece on the Telegraph's obit of Terry Wogan. Apparently they painted an unpleasant picture. This seemed unlikely so I read it and it was true. They had!
In fact it just described a truth which is that celebs get spoilt the more famous they get but it was crudely unsubtle nonetheless (and anonymous)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/12132242/Sir-Terry-Wogan-obituary.html
The Outers will always be with us - no solution will please them all. The arguments will only just begin if we leave and the anti immigrant anti asian anti arab anti coloured anti muslim anti breast feeding anti NHS anti every pet prejudice under the sun will only grow in volume.
Its the outers playing the islamophobIa card. According to them millions of muslims are going to swarm all over us from Germany in great bunches.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35516741
Sea state "phenomenal"?
EDIT: this chart from magicseaweed is quite impressive!
http://magicseaweed.com/North-Atlantic-Surf-Chart/2/
I appreciate that we all flirt with the fallacy of imagining everyone thinking like ourselves, but this Calais gambit is so obviously nonsense, I wonder who he thinks it will play to?
It wouldn't have been surprising for a post-independence Scotland to lurch to the right, confounding those who thought they were voting for a socialist utopia. It's difficult to say which way the UK post-brexit would turn.
The inner campaign is such a mess. The two big fights they've made in the last week have been on what Thatcher woud have voted and how many Muslims will get here. Does anyone sensible believe that is good territory for the campaign to be fought on, from Remain perspective??
"I want Leave on my own terms..."
1) Le Touquet Treaty regulating UKV+I operations in Calais/Gare du Nord is entirely separate from EU Treaties.
2) Even if France terminates Le Touquet Treaty, there would still be no jungle in Dover/St Pancras, just as there is none currently at LHR.
3) UK fines airlines transporting passengers with no visa: thus airlines police our air borders. The same would be done with rail and sea.
aka the PM is talking total cr*p
Conversely, a friend who ran an Indian restaurant said two years later that he'd tried advertising in the trade press for a general chef and he'd offered training in Indian cooking. He'd had zero applications (perhaps he wasn't offering to pay enough, dunno).
In general, I think we underestimate the lack of flexibility in the system at the bottom of the scale - most people don't instinctively retrain and they aren't necessarily encouraged if they want to.
Just using London as an example, Dishoom is incredibly popular at the moment with regular queues well out the door. The waiting staff are from all over the world. There is no reason why they could not employ similar staff in the kitchen.
Not Magic Seaweed, we use that all the time for planning purposes along with the Met Office, Fugero and Meteogroup.
But the idea that 14m is exceptional.
In the last two weeks west of Shetlands we have had significant wave heights (that is the steady background waves) of 50 - 60ft and Maximum wave heights of 80ft with a swell of 30-35 ft.
14m happens, literally, every day for much of the winter.
BTW - take Chelsea - its owner is Abramovich, but he is not Chairman - that is Bruce Buck. He is hardly in day to day control.
When you look at the success of Leicester in the way they have found players for not much money and turned them into successful parts of a winning side then there are a lot of people in charge of bigger clubs who should sack themselves.
It's much less than we pay at the moment but we ain't going to get everything we want for free.
The EU have been sick of Britain's equivocation for years. Once we finally make up our minds to Leave (if we Remain the grumbles will continue) I expect that it's just as likely many EU leaders might breathe a sigh of relief.
What they care about is the stability of the residual EU, its other more flaky members and the eurozone. We can offer to help with that from the outside, or we can decide to form our own outer trading ring in a beefed up EFTA that might look decidedly attractive by comparison.
There is nothing tricky about making dishes that are served in Indian restaurants in the UK. The mixes are all pre made, it's about as difficult as serving low to medium grade pub food.
Not that isnt hard work, as these kind of jobs can be. But there is nothing here that cant be taught in college or on the job in a few months.
Youth unemployment amongst people who are indian/pakistani/bangladeshi is 46%, a pattern that is replicated in the adult population.
There's no shortage of people who can do the job.
It must be painful sitting on that fence.
There is some collosal US-UK betting arbitrage going on.
https://www.predictit.org/Ticker/KASICH.RNOM16#data
Will John Kasich win the 2016 Republican presidential nomination?
Latest Price: 10¢
You can't buy "No" at 92 cents. He is 39-1 on Betfair.
https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/696639082970095616
The whole question of the mechanics and economic and political fall-out from a Leave result in the referendum is one which has received surprisingly little coverage. I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently, and I think there are a lot of different aspects to it both in UK and in European politics. If I get time I might submit a guest article on the subject.
Interesting thing, as Guardian feed points out, is that the PM is no longer bothering to try and sell his proposals.
Too right. Unless you are one of the people at the bottom of the system and then you are all too well aware how restrictive the state is over these matters.
The key point from the article is this
but if Labour is to unite around a consensus candidate of stature, the options are very limited indeed.
By the way, do you know if we paid that 1.7bn bill to the EU in full?
The only way the Cameron logic works on this scare is if we have many thousands in the UK who want to get into France via Folkestone. Yes- we do have that. The annual exodus of middle England to their second homes in the Loire Valley. That would be a remarkable sight indeed.
If i had to pick a 200/1 political betting selection right now, I might have a go at Kasich to beat Sanders in our US Straight Forecast betting. Seems a lot more likely.
Objectively speaking, both sides are deploying bogus arguments. Welcome to politics.
Why the hell do they want to hang around Calais in a squalid camp?
What's wrong with France?
The fun starts if Labour get around to installing a half credible leader. After Corbyn anyone will look good, and the Tories are too complacent.
http://youtu.be/t1DWBKk5xHQ
Cameron proves yet again that he is the standout politician of the post Blair crop, something that we all know. He will be such a loss to the Tory party.
If the referendum produces a Remain result (at least, a reasonably decisive one), the reputation of both of them will soar. If the result is Leave, that's the end of the Osborne-Cameron era of Conservative politics.
That no-one seems to be there to make his case for him might just suggest he has not even convinced his own side he has come back with enough with which to go into battle....