Demographically and electorally, the Democratic Party has the stronger hand. For Trump to win, I would hammer the illegal immigration issue, securing the border, renegotiating trade deals that have cost us factories, jobs and rising wages, and after securing the party base, go for victory in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, by campaigning against the Clinton trade policies that de-industrialized Middle America and on a new Trump trade agenda to re-industrialize America.
Bring the jobs back!
With Obama not running, there is no reason Trump, a builder and job creator, could not win more of the African American vote than McCain who lost it 24-1. There is no reason Trump cannot win more Hispanics, who respond to strong leaders and job creators. Romney lost over 70 percent of the Hispanic vote.
Given the situation in the country and the world, the issues for Trump are backing up the men in blue, building a wall to secure the border against illegal immigrants, cracking down on corporations that hire illegals rather than Americans, making America the strongest nation on Earth, but staying out of wars that are none of our business. And paying back 10 times over those who attack us — the Jacksonian stance.
Lastly, as Democrats and a hostile media will seek to make Trump the issue, the Republicans should, if she is nominated, make Hillary the issue. Do we really want to go back through all that again, or roll the dice on a better, brighter and surely more exciting future?
Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates
Carson's figures are better although Rubio would be the better candidate.
It won't be either of them though. It'll be Cruz or Trump.
The more interesting question is on the Democrats' side. Hillary really ought to win but if she does, she's going to stumble for a while. Could he do it? I've not really given it serious consideration until this last week but all the momentum is in his direction and has been for months now (if from a very low base)
Mike's observation about the polarisation of the debate is right. The US might just get the election such polarisation deserves: Sanders v Cruz (or Trump)
Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.
Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.
What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?
Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.
Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.
Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.
Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.
If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?
Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.
Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.
Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.
Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.
What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?
Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.
Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.
Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.
Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.
If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?
The Republican Party has always been the party of business and the party of free trade. If Donald Trump is the candidate, it will be turning its back on the support of millions of moderate Republicans.
Donald Trump would be the Left Wing candidate, and Hillary Clinton the Right Wing one.
@rowenamason: Two Labour MPs have just asked questions in Commons effectively inviting Tory frontbench to criticise Labour leadership stance on Trident
@rowenamason: Two Labour MPs have just asked questions in Commons effectively inviting Tory frontbench to criticise Labour leadership stance on Trident
Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.
Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.
Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
Yes, I'd agree with all that - it sounds like there's a lot of scope for movement before November. What'd be interesting to see would be equivalent figures for Sanders and Hillary.
I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.
Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.
Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.
Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
I guess they find Trump personally offensive. Also, his whackier statements invite ridicule.
Interesting also to see (on these favourability figures at least) that Trump is not seen particularly favorourably by Republicans: sixth out of the nine mentioned. This seems counter-intuitive given his strong position in the state and national polls.
It's a confusing picture, but I am beginning to think that he might get the nomination and even the presidency. In particular, I've been impressed that he seems to be learning how to do this politics malarkey. His recent debate performances are much improved - for example, his response to Ted Cruz's hamfisted 'New York values' attack in the latest debate was masterly.
Conor Pope Lab benches near empty for Defence Qs. Woodcock, P McFadden, K Jones, D Hanson, M Moon, D Jarvis all here - but not to support unilateralism
Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.
Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.
What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?
Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.
Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.
Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.
Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.
If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?
The Republican Party has always been the party of business and the party of free trade. If Donald Trump is the candidate, it will be turning its back on the support of millions of moderate Republicans.
Donald Trump would be the Left Wing candidate, and Hillary Clinton the Right Wing one.
Interesting also to see (on these favourability figures at least) that Trump is not seen particularly favorourably by Republicans: sixth out of the nine mentioned. This seems counter-intuitive given his strong position in the state and national polls.
It's a confusing picture, but I am beginning to think that he might get the nomination and even the presidency. In particular, I've been impressed that he seems to be learning how to do this politics malarkey. His recent debate performances are much improved - for example, his response to Ted Cruz's hamfisted 'New York values' attack in the latest debate was masterly.
If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with
Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!
On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
This so misses the point in regards to BBC problem on these kind of issues. It isn't that they insist on calling them ISIS or so called Islamic State etc, it is a) the reasoning behind how they come to this decision and b) there continued insistence in relation to calling terrorists anything but exactly. The mindset of those higher up is so warped it is unbelievable, it is just out of JJ playbook.
That, at least, would be something to attack them over...the explanation. I still believe, whatever their reasoning the BBC's choice of words is the most appropriate, and whinging on about it seems needless.
Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates
Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
I presume the thinking is that the rest of the field drops out, Jeb's money goes to him, and everyone who doesn't want Trump votes for him?
Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
Some terrible assumptions in there. But personally I have a bigger red number on Bush than Rubio - for these reasons. The Fair value of my Rubio red is greater than Bush though - so swings/roundabouts.
Trump 5-4 Cruz 5-2 Rubio 9-2 Bush 20s
Perhaps something like that should be correct ?
How much of the market should a dutch of Cruz/Trump make up.
I think I saw Rubio behind Bush in some recent polling mind, so 9-2 could well be far too generous...
Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.
Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.
Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
Maybe the Democrats dislike Trump's personality rather than his policies. Cruz is getting ignored at the moment as Trump dominates the airwaves.
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with
Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!
On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.
You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment
Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates
Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
I presume the thinking is that the rest of the field drops out, Jeb's money goes to him, and everyone who doesn't want Trump votes for him?
Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
Some terrible assumptions in there. But personally I have a bigger red number on Bush than Rubio - for these reasons. The Fair value of my Rubio red is greater than Bush though - so swings/roundabouts.
Trump 5-4 Cruz 5-2 Rubio 9-2 Bush 20s
Perhaps something like that should be correct ?
How much of the market should a dutch of Cruz/Trump make up.
I think I saw Rubio behind Bush in some recent polling mind, so 9-2 could well be far too generous...
I agree Bush is a dead duck.
But I don't know enough about American politics to know if Trump will cruise to victory through a divided field, or whether the later states will become a Rubio/Trump fight after the likes of Kasich/Bush/Carson and perhaps even Cruz if he does badly pull out, and edge it to Rubio in delegates?
If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with
Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!
On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.
You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment
I think Cruz walks Iowa, with a high 30s share of the vote. And I think Rubio does surprisingly well, scoring a very good third on 18-20%. He may even beat Trump for second.
(Trump will underperform because: (a) as Obama proved in '08, caucuses are all about ground game, and he has none; and (b) his voters aren't natural Republican caucus goers. Rubio will outperform because there's a guy at a caucus, and he's the lone Kasich fan, and he'll go join Rubio rather than embarassingly stand on his own.)
Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.
Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
Trump will underperform because: (a) as Obama proved in '08, caucuses are all about ground game, and he has none; and (b) his voters aren't natural Republican caucus goers. Rubio will outperform because there's a guy at a caucus, and he's the lone Kasich fan, and he'll go join Rubio rather than embarassingly stand on his own.
That's plausible. Things could loom very different once people start voting.
The caucus system sounds kind of fun tbh. You want plenty of alcohol mind you, which I guess you don't get.
If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.
You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment
The good news is that my book on the final winner of the presidency is rather healthier, thanks to some early bets I got on at 4/1 on a female winner. I think I might be about to play safe and lay some of that off..
» show previous quotes A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!
Well done sir!
Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.
PS
$28........
Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.
Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.
Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.
They don't know who he is, presumably.
Kasich backed down on Walker-like legislation in Ohio and then went for Obamacare. He is a pragmatist with a long track record of working both sides of the aisle. He is as liberal as it gets within the current GOP - more so than Christie and with a better actual track record on fiscal and governance issues than Christie.
» show previous quotes A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!
Well done sir!
Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.
PS
$28........
Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.
Remind us how the SNP have reduced the cost of crude oil on the world markets.
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
In the last few Parliaments ICM tended to come up with the lowest Labour scores - and higher LibDem figures.
I look forward to the real votes being counted at the May elections. I'd be surprised if they show Labour doing anything like as well as this poll implies.
In the last few Parliaments ICM tended to come up with the lowest Labour scores - and higher LibDem figures.
That's because their spiral of silence adjustment was based around trying to get a sample where 25% of voters said they voted LibDem in 2010. Now it's based around 8% in 2015, there won't be a (completely inaccurate as it turned out) shy LibDem bonus.
WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
The point about unrealistic expectations of guaranteed future success from some Tories is quite reasonable. However, the Tories should barely have any leads if at all, given if many of their supporters would say they have been less than optimal since the GE, and at this stage last time in the electoral cycle Ed M was leading them I believe.
Now, that Lab can even score 35%, even if it is an overestimate, should give some pause to Tories, since as you suggest if he was as terrible as they think he should be given his statements, they'd be even further behind. But that they are behind is pretty notable nevertheless.
Even if the world is not preparing, guaranteed, for 1000 year Tory empire, it isn't a good poll for Labour, except in relative terms.
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.
Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
That's why I prefaced it with 'not going to happen'.
Kasich will not win the primaries because of that fact. But faced with either Hillary or Bernie in a general, he would win the centre. His inability to excite the GOP will hurt some, but:
Case 1: Running against Hillary. Here equally the Dems will not have an excited base and Kasich is so 'moderate' in US terms that his being the GOP candidate will not fire up the Dem base as Cruz or Trump would.
Case 2: Running against Bernie. Bernie will fire up the liberal wing of the Dems, but not the moderates, and he will turn off Independents, ensuring a bigger win for Kasich in that camp.
Net net, if Kasich could get the nomination, I would see him winning the General handily.
Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.
They don't know who he is, presumably.
Kasich backed down on Walker-like legislation in Ohio and then went for Obamacare. He is a pragmatist with a long track record of working both sides of the aisle. He is as liberal as it gets within the current GOP - more so than Christie and with a better actual track record on fiscal and governance issues than Christie.
Why should he not be ahead with Dems?
I was just being flippant - he does sound more appealing from the Dem perspective than the others from what you say.
I know little about the POTUS race, but looking at those figures, Carson looks the best candidate. He has the highest score with both Republicans and Independents and his Democrat score is pretty good too.
» show previous quotes A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!
Well done sir!
Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.
PS
$28........
Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.
Remind us how the SNP have reduced the cost of crude oil on the world markets.
The same way they were going to force the currency union I expect......
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
You do realise that the Tories didn't win the 2005 election, right?
Michael Crick The answer to my quiz question - Ford was last US President not to visit Britain during his presidency; Johnson the last elected president
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
And they lost the next one. So not much to be joyful about on their end even with a 35%.
Must be some decent odds on Labmost seats for 2020 though.
I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.
He's entitled to since he wrote the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines.
Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.
Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
That's why I prefaced it with 'not going to happen'.
Kasich will not win the primaries because of that fact. But faced with either Hillary or Bernie in a general, he would win the centre. His inability to excite the GOP will hurt some, but:
Case 1: Running against Hillary. Here equally the Dems will not have an excited base and Kasich is so 'moderate' in US terms that his being the GOP candidate will not fire up the Dem base as Cruz or Trump would.
Case 2: Running against Bernie. Bernie will fire up the liberal wing of the Dems, but not the moderates, and he will turn off Independents, ensuring a bigger win for Kasich in that camp.
Net net, if Kasich could get the nomination, I would see him winning the General handily.
Interesting, thanks.
If you have a second, I'd be interested to know how you think Sanders comes across to a US audience. To me he seems too much of a denounce-bad-stuff politician, not at all executive or Presidential.
@paulwaugh: 'Moderates' will push for secret ballot of PLP on motion re SRotheram/NEC. Corbyn allies will push for show of hands https://t.co/y50nEI80xv
WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
The point about unrealistic expectations of guaranteed future success from some Tories is quite reasonable. However, the Tories should barely have any leads if at all, given if many of their supporters would say they have been less than optimal since the GE, and at this stage last time in the electoral cycle Ed M was leading them I believe.
Now, that Lab can even score 35%, even if it is an overestimate, should give some pause to Tories, since as you suggest if he was as terrible as they think he should be given his statements, they'd be even further behind. But that they are behind is pretty notable nevertheless.
Even if the world is not preparing, guaranteed, for 1000 year Tory empire, it isn't a good poll for Labour, except in relative terms.
I don't think electoral history backs you on this. It is not uncommon for a re-elected Government to be still ahead 8 months later. In the Parliaments elected in 1987 and 1959 it took two years for Labour to take the lead.Similarly ICM had Labour 15% ahead 8 months into the 2001 Parliament - with some pollsters still giving them leads in excess of 20%. Back in 1966 Labour retained a lead 8 months later. Compared with those four precedents today's figures are not at all disastrous for Labour and nowhere near the ballpark predicted by the more hysterical ultra Tory optimists last Summer/early Autumn.
How can ICM still be in business when he's essentially saying "our polls are rubbish"? And that seems to go for most of the other polling companies, I really don't get why they are still being paid for this.
I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.
He's entitled to since he wrote the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines.
He served as White House Communications Director for two years.
Could you provide links to evidence that he wrote the "the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines"?
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
And they lost the next one. So not much to be joyful about on their end even with a 35%.
Must be some decent odds on Labmost seats for 2020 though.
But the Labour lead at the following election was 12% to 20% plus narrower than the polls were showing in Feb 2002!
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
Martin Boon estimates Labour are nearer 28/29%
Do we care? I think the entire country can work out how many beans make 5. Polls at this stage with the EU referendum in the offing are meaningless. I do not expect Labour under Corbyn to collapse into nothingness. But that is not the point. I do not expect Labour to win the 2020 election. The other point is that Labour have regressed, Labour have contracted, retreated, into a left wing redoubt. Cut off and surrounded. Where is the relief column? How long will the water last.
I see the Dutch Labour Party are facing utter destruction, it's good to see such a toxic brand being destroyed throughout Europe.
Would any other party in the parliament work with Wilders?
Dutch politics are going to be very interesting in 2015. The PVV is certainly going to top the polls, but whether they will get 40 odd seats (Peil) or 30-33 (De Stemming, Ipsos and TNS) will make a big difference.
Support for the Euro is very strong in the Netherlands, with "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands" being something like 75-21 in favour, which must be one of the highest in the whole Eurozone.
This makes them a difficult bedfellow for most of the other parties. There will probably be five parties with 15 to 20 seats apiece, which will mean that whatever comes out will be a very rainbow coalition.
I could see PVV + CDA + D66 sort of working, although D66 and the PVV are like the LibDems and UKIP...
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
Lol but the Tories were doing so much better in 1867! spinning right round right round right round....
Anecdote alert. I belong to a Creative Writing Group (15 OAP's) and for last week's meeting we were asked to do, inter alia, a political speech designed to be given to an unsympathetic audience. Not many took that option but one who did gave a rip-roaring pro-Labour speech, at the end of which someone said "What was wrong with that?" Most of us of us seemed happy with the sightly left of Corbyn agenda proposed.
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
Lol but the Tories were doing so much better in 1867! spinning right round right round right round....
Referring you to facts which you might find unpalatable is not spinning in any sense - but you appear determined to reveal the extent of your own ignorance.
But surely ICM - and the other pollsters - carry out appropriate adjustments to deal with that!
Yes but Boon is essentially saying that even with those adjustments they don't do enough to correct for the poor sample.
So telephone polls are seriously flawed, and online panel polling is serious flawed. It seems that the only method that works okay is expensive and intensive doorstep or face-to-face polling, and nobody is willing to pay for that to be done on a regular basis for voting intention polls.
Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. Your point is?
Comments
Love that pic!
Support for the Union will not.
Tick tock.
Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates
In the abstract I think she'll win against Trump or Cruz. When I see her speaking I immediately start to have doubts.
Bring the jobs back!
With Obama not running, there is no reason Trump, a builder and job creator, could not win more of the African American vote than McCain who lost it 24-1. There is no reason Trump cannot win more Hispanics, who respond to strong leaders and job creators. Romney lost over 70 percent of the Hispanic vote.
Given the situation in the country and the world, the issues for Trump are backing up the men in blue, building a wall to secure the border against illegal immigrants, cracking down on corporations that hire illegals rather than Americans, making America the strongest nation on Earth, but staying out of wars that are none of our business. And paying back 10 times over those who attack us — the Jacksonian stance.
Lastly, as Democrats and a hostile media will seek to make Trump the issue, the Republicans should, if she is nominated, make Hillary the issue. Do we really want to go back through all that again, or roll the dice on a better, brighter and surely more exciting future?
http://buchanan.org/blog/124610-124610
Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.
It won't be either of them though. It'll be Cruz or Trump.
The more interesting question is on the Democrats' side. Hillary really ought to win but if she does, she's going to stumble for a while. Could he do it? I've not really given it serious consideration until this last week but all the momentum is in his direction and has been for months now (if from a very low base)
Mike's observation about the polarisation of the debate is right. The US might just get the election such polarisation deserves: Sanders v Cruz (or Trump)
Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.
What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?
Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.
Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.
Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.
Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.
If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?
http://buchanan.org/blog/what-bernie-and-the-donald-portend-124592
Roger Stone looks at the risk of a brokered convention.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/14/would-a-brokered-convention-stop-donald-trump/
Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.
Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.
Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
Donald Trump would be the Left Wing candidate, and Hillary Clinton the Right Wing one.
"Via @mtomasky My favourite Twitter pic of the weekend"
Bravo! Very funny.
OT Another film of the year 'Room'. Not for the PB Star Wars franchise but for those with wider tastes it's a must-see.
It's a confusing picture, but I am beginning to think that he might get the nomination and even the presidency. In particular, I've been impressed that he seems to be learning how to do this politics malarkey. His recent debate performances are much improved - for example, his response to Ted Cruz's hamfisted 'New York values' attack in the latest debate was masterly.
Lab benches near empty for Defence Qs. Woodcock, P McFadden, K Jones, D Hanson, M Moon, D Jarvis all here - but not to support unilateralism
http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/01/17/andrew-jackson-revenant/
comparing Trump with Andrew Jackson, which strikes me as a fair comparison. Hillary is not the worst fit as John Q Adams.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-really-unpopular-with-general-election-voters/
If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with
Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 40% (+1)
LAB: 35% (+1)
UKIP: 10% (-)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
GRN: 3% (-)
(via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)
On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
Trump 5-4
Cruz 5-2
Rubio 9-2
Bush 20s
Perhaps something like that should be correct ?
How much of the market should a dutch of Cruz/Trump make up.
I think I saw Rubio behind Bush in some recent polling mind, so 9-2 could well be far too generous...
Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment
But I don't know enough about American politics to know if Trump will cruise to victory through a divided field, or whether the later states will become a Rubio/Trump fight after the likes of Kasich/Bush/Carson and perhaps even Cruz if he does badly pull out, and edge it to Rubio in delegates?
The Trump fundamentals there are not good.
(Trump will underperform because: (a) as Obama proved in '08, caucuses are all about ground game, and he has none; and (b) his voters aren't natural Republican caucus goers. Rubio will outperform because there's a guy at a caucus, and he's the lone Kasich fan, and he'll go join Rubio rather than embarassingly stand on his own.)
Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
The caucus system sounds kind of fun tbh. You want plenty of alcohol mind you, which I guess you don't get.
CarlottaVance said:
» show previous quotes
A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!
Well done sir!
Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.
PS
$28........
Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.
John Kasich 320.00 £3.00 £957.00
Why should he not be ahead with Dems?
Even ICM don't believe the Labour score
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Dutch_general_election#Seats
Now, that Lab can even score 35%, even if it is an overestimate, should give some pause to Tories, since as you suggest if he was as terrible as they think he should be given his statements, they'd be even further behind. But that they are behind is pretty notable nevertheless.
Even if the world is not preparing, guaranteed, for 1000 year Tory empire, it isn't a good poll for Labour, except in relative terms.
Kasich will not win the primaries because of that fact. But faced with either Hillary or Bernie in a general, he would win the centre. His inability to excite the GOP will hurt some, but:
Case 1: Running against Hillary. Here equally the Dems will not have an excited base and Kasich is so 'moderate' in US terms that his being the GOP candidate will not fire up the Dem base as Cruz or Trump would.
Case 2: Running against Bernie. Bernie will fire up the liberal wing of the Dems, but not the moderates, and he will turn off Independents, ensuring a bigger win for Kasich in that camp.
Net net, if Kasich could get the nomination, I would see him winning the General handily.
So is the poll rubbish?
Rubbish in, rubbish out. These polls are really a waste of time.
Would any other party in the parliament work with Wilders?
The answer to my quiz question - Ford was last US President not to visit Britain during his presidency; Johnson the last elected president
Must be some decent odds on Labmost seats for 2020 though.
If you have a second, I'd be interested to know how you think Sanders comes across to a US audience. To me he seems too much of a denounce-bad-stuff politician, not at all executive or Presidential.
Bob The Builder is especially likely to have an extremely negative view of people like Miliband and Corbyn.
They make too many easy contacts with 9-5 office workers and DE voters.
Mori is more broadly informative because they provide homeowner, FT/PT worker and work sector subsamples.
Corbyn allies will push for show of hands https://t.co/y50nEI80xv
Could you provide links to evidence that he wrote the "the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines"?
The only thing we can take from this poll is that political polling in this country is seriously broken.
#Indonesia #Poland #Thailand #France https://t.co/9ZiS9Q1zsD
The other point is that Labour have regressed, Labour have contracted, retreated, into a left wing redoubt. Cut off and surrounded. Where is the relief column? How long will the water last.
Support for the Euro is very strong in the Netherlands, with "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands" being something like 75-21 in favour, which must be one of the highest in the whole Eurozone.
This makes them a difficult bedfellow for most of the other parties. There will probably be five parties with 15 to 20 seats apiece, which will mean that whatever comes out will be a very rainbow coalition.
I could see PVV + CDA + D66 sort of working, although D66 and the PVV are like the LibDems and UKIP...
Most of us of us seemed happy with the sightly left of Corbyn agenda proposed.
So telephone polls are seriously flawed, and online panel polling is serious flawed. It seems that the only method that works okay is expensive and intensive doorstep or face-to-face polling, and nobody is willing to pay for that to be done on a regular basis for voting intention polls.