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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two weeks to go until Iowa: White House Race Round up

SystemSystem Posts: 12,293
edited 2016 18 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two weeks to go until Iowa: White House Race Round up

Via @mtomasky My favourite Twitter pic of the weekend

pic.twitter.com/Ps6MPVx08o

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Go Hillary!

    Love that pic!
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    malcolmg said:


    No sho without Scotland hating Punch , is there

    A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!

    Well done sir!

    Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.

    PS

    $28........
    At some point, the oil price will start to rise.

    Support for the Union will not.

    Tick tock.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    As I mentioned earlier, I thought Hillary was wooden last night (admittedly I only watched the first 45 minutes).

    In the abstract I think she'll win against Trump or Cruz. When I see her speaking I immediately start to have doubts.
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Demographically and electorally, the Democratic Party has the stronger hand. For Trump to win, I would hammer the illegal immigration issue, securing the border, renegotiating trade deals that have cost us factories, jobs and rising wages, and after securing the party base, go for victory in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, by campaigning against the Clinton trade policies that de-industrialized Middle America and on a new Trump trade agenda to re-industrialize America.

    Bring the jobs back!

    With Obama not running, there is no reason Trump, a builder and job creator, could not win more of the African American vote than McCain who lost it 24-1. There is no reason Trump cannot win more Hispanics, who respond to strong leaders and job creators. Romney lost over 70 percent of the Hispanic vote.

    Given the situation in the country and the world, the issues for Trump are backing up the men in blue, building a wall to secure the border against illegal immigrants, cracking down on corporations that hire illegals rather than Americans, making America the strongest nation on Earth, but staying out of wars that are none of our business. And paying back 10 times over those who attack us — the Jacksonian stance.

    Lastly, as Democrats and a hostile media will seek to make Trump the issue, the Republicans should, if she is nominated, make Hillary the issue. Do we really want to go back through all that again, or roll the dice on a better, brighter and surely more exciting future?


    http://buchanan.org/blog/124610-124610
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,832
    Afternoon all,

    Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,029
    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Carson's figures are better although Rubio would be the better candidate.

    It won't be either of them though. It'll be Cruz or Trump.

    The more interesting question is on the Democrats' side. Hillary really ought to win but if she does, she's going to stumble for a while. Could he do it? I've not really given it serious consideration until this last week but all the momentum is in his direction and has been for months now (if from a very low base)

    Mike's observation about the polarisation of the debate is right. The US might just get the election such polarisation deserves: Sanders v Cruz (or Trump)
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.

    Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.

    What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?

    Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.

    Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.

    Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.

    Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.

    If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?


    http://buchanan.org/blog/what-bernie-and-the-donald-portend-124592

    Roger Stone looks at the risk of a brokered convention.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/14/would-a-brokered-convention-stop-donald-trump/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    I'm surprised at a few things in that poll:

    Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.

    Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.

    Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    LondonBob said:

    Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.

    Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.

    What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?

    Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.

    Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.

    Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.

    Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.

    If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?


    http://buchanan.org/blog/what-bernie-and-the-donald-portend-124592

    Roger Stone looks at the risk of a brokered convention.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/14/would-a-brokered-convention-stop-donald-trump/

    The Republican Party has always been the party of business and the party of free trade. If Donald Trump is the candidate, it will be turning its back on the support of millions of moderate Republicans.

    Donald Trump would be the Left Wing candidate, and Hillary Clinton the Right Wing one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rowenamason: Two Labour MPs have just asked questions in Commons effectively inviting Tory frontbench to criticise Labour leadership stance on Trident
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OT..fpt..Labour is getting its collective butt well and truly whupped in the HOC Defence debate
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Scott_P said:

    @rowenamason: Two Labour MPs have just asked questions in Commons effectively inviting Tory frontbench to criticise Labour leadership stance on Trident

    Woodcock?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,029
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm surprised at a few things in that poll:

    Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.

    Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.

    Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.

    Yes, I'd agree with all that - it sounds like there's a lot of scope for movement before November. What'd be interesting to see would be equivalent figures for Sanders and Hillary.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm surprised at a few things in that poll:

    Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.

    Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.

    Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.

    I guess they find Trump personally offensive. Also, his whackier statements invite ridicule.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited 2016 18

    "Via @mtomasky My favourite Twitter pic of the weekend"

    Bravo! Very funny.

    OT Another film of the year 'Room'. Not for the PB Star Wars franchise but for those with wider tastes it's a must-see.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Kevan Jones' face as Tory defence minister heaps praise on him. https://t.co/KlMVjtEIpi
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752

    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
    I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Interesting also to see (on these favourability figures at least) that Trump is not seen particularly favorourably by Republicans: sixth out of the nine mentioned. This seems counter-intuitive given his strong position in the state and national polls.

    It's a confusing picture, but I am beginning to think that he might get the nomination and even the presidency. In particular, I've been impressed that he seems to be learning how to do this politics malarkey. His recent debate performances are much improved - for example, his response to Ted Cruz's hamfisted 'New York values' attack in the latest debate was masterly.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Conor Pope
    Lab benches near empty for Defence Qs. Woodcock, P McFadden, K Jones, D Hanson, M Moon, D Jarvis all here - but not to support unilateralism
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,029
    rcs1000 said:

    LondonBob said:

    Yet, in January and February of 1980, Ronald Reagan, during the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire Primary, never got closer than 25 points behind President Jimmy Carter, who led Reagan, on March 1, 58-33. Yet, that November, 1980, Reagan won a 44-state landslide.

    Today, according to a new Fox Poll, Trump would beat Clinton by 3 points in the general election, if held now. Another poll shows Trump pulling 20 percent of the Democratic vote.

    What this suggests is that nominating Trump is by no means a guarantee of GOP defeat. But beyond politics, what do the successes of Sanders, Trump and Cruz portend?

    Well, Sanders and Trump both opposed the war in Iraq that the Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats supported.

    Both Sanders and Trump oppose NAFTA and MFN for China and the free-trade deals that Clinton Democrats and Bush Republicans backed, which have cost us thousands of lost factories, millions of lost jobs and four decades of lost wage increases for Middle America.

    Trump has taken the toughest line on the invasion across the U.S.-Mexican border and against Muslim refugees entering unvetted.

    Immigration, securing the border, fair trade – Trump’s issues are the issues of 2016.

    If a Trump-Clinton race came down to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania, and Trump was for backing our men in blue, gun rights, securing America’s borders, no more NAFTAs and a foreign policy that defends America first, who would you bet on?


    http://buchanan.org/blog/what-bernie-and-the-donald-portend-124592

    Roger Stone looks at the risk of a brokered convention.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/14/would-a-brokered-convention-stop-donald-trump/

    The Republican Party has always been the party of business and the party of free trade. If Donald Trump is the candidate, it will be turning its back on the support of millions of moderate Republicans.

    Donald Trump would be the Left Wing candidate, and Hillary Clinton the Right Wing one.
    I read a good article earlier today

    http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/01/17/andrew-jackson-revenant/

    comparing Trump with Andrew Jackson, which strikes me as a fair comparison. Hillary is not the worst fit as John Q Adams.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752

    Interesting also to see (on these favourability figures at least) that Trump is not seen particularly favorourably by Republicans: sixth out of the nine mentioned. This seems counter-intuitive given his strong position in the state and national polls.

    It's a confusing picture, but I am beginning to think that he might get the nomination and even the presidency. In particular, I've been impressed that he seems to be learning how to do this politics malarkey. His recent debate performances are much improved - for example, his response to Ted Cruz's hamfisted 'New York values' attack in the latest debate was masterly.

    Nate Silver disagrees.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-really-unpopular-with-general-election-voters/

    If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with ;)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
    I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
    I presume the thinking is that the rest of the field drops out, Jeb's money goes to him, and everyone who doesn't want Trump votes for him?

    Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    Nate Silver disagrees.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-really-unpopular-with-general-election-voters/

    If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with ;)

    Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!

    On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    FPT:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12105082/David-Cameron-pledges-to-confront-BBC-executives-about-use-of-Islamic-State-name-during-on-air-clash.html

    This so misses the point in regards to BBC problem on these kind of issues. It isn't that they insist on calling them ISIS or so called Islamic State etc, it is a) the reasoning behind how they come to this decision and b) there continued insistence in relation to calling terrorists anything but exactly. The mindset of those higher up is so warped it is unbelievable, it is just out of JJ playbook.

    That, at least, would be something to attack them over...the explanation. I still believe, whatever their reasoning the BBC's choice of words is the most appropriate, and whinging on about it seems needless.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
    I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
    I presume the thinking is that the rest of the field drops out, Jeb's money goes to him, and everyone who doesn't want Trump votes for him?

    Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
    Some terrible assumptions in there. But personally I have a bigger red number on Bush than Rubio - for these reasons. The Fair value of my Rubio red is greater than Bush though - so swings/roundabouts.

    Trump 5-4
    Cruz 5-2
    Rubio 9-2
    Bush 20s

    Perhaps something like that should be correct ?

    How much of the market should a dutch of Cruz/Trump make up.

    I think I saw Rubio behind Bush in some recent polling mind, so 9-2 could well be far too generous...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,960
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm surprised at a few things in that poll:

    Firstly, Trump's positions are not really Republican ones. So, why does he get such massive negatives from Democrats? My view has been that a lot of Democrats find Trump's protectionist leanings quite attractive - if this poll is correct, it's hard to see Trump winning the White House.

    Secondly, Rubio is clearly the most electable candidate. He's only just behind Cruz among Republicans and is well ahead among independents and Democrats.

    Thirdly, do Democrats not know anything about Cruz? I would have thought his policy mix would be much more toxic to Democrats than Trump.

    Maybe the Democrats dislike Trump's personality rather than his policies. Cruz is getting ignored at the moment as Trump dominates the airwaves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    Afternoon all,

    Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.

    They don't know who he is, presumably.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752
    edited 2016 18

    Pulpstar said:

    Nate Silver disagrees.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-really-unpopular-with-general-election-voters/

    If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with ;)

    Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!

    On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
    If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.

    You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment :D
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rubio's numbers look the best option.

    Would be interested to see the mirror figures for Dem candidates

    Rubio is the obvious anti-Trump candidate, which is presumably what's holding his price up on Betfair pending the later primaries.
    I think it is delusion that is holding his price up !
    I presume the thinking is that the rest of the field drops out, Jeb's money goes to him, and everyone who doesn't want Trump votes for him?

    Trump can get 35% Republican primary support - can he get 50%+ if it's a two horse race?
    Some terrible assumptions in there. But personally I have a bigger red number on Bush than Rubio - for these reasons. The Fair value of my Rubio red is greater than Bush though - so swings/roundabouts.

    Trump 5-4
    Cruz 5-2
    Rubio 9-2
    Bush 20s

    Perhaps something like that should be correct ?

    How much of the market should a dutch of Cruz/Trump make up.

    I think I saw Rubio behind Bush in some recent polling mind, so 9-2 could well be far too generous...
    I agree Bush is a dead duck.

    But I don't know enough about American politics to know if Trump will cruise to victory through a divided field, or whether the later states will become a Rubio/Trump fight after the likes of Kasich/Bush/Carson and perhaps even Cruz if he does badly pull out, and edge it to Rubio in delegates?

    The Trump fundamentals there are not good.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752
    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nate Silver disagrees.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-really-unpopular-with-general-election-voters/

    If you've been following Nate's implied advice from his articles, you'll have plenty of "green" on Betfair to put this to the test with ;)

    Unfortunately, I have been following his advice. My lay of Trump for the nomination at 7.59 isn't currently looking like my smartest ever bet!

    On the other hand, I did lay Jeb Bush at 2.9, Rubio at 2.79, and I backed Cruz at 10.46 and laid him at 5.4 (too early, but still..). Overall, my position is not great, but it's not disastrous.
    If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.

    You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment :D
    I think Cruz walks Iowa, with a high 30s share of the vote. And I think Rubio does surprisingly well, scoring a very good third on 18-20%. He may even beat Trump for second.

    (Trump will underperform because: (a) as Obama proved in '08, caucuses are all about ground game, and he has none; and (b) his voters aren't natural Republican caucus goers. Rubio will outperform because there's a guy at a caucus, and he's the lone Kasich fan, and he'll go join Rubio rather than embarassingly stand on his own.)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774
    AndyJS said:

    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.

    Knakker
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And I'm his sugar daddy.
    AndyJS said:

    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.

    Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    rcs1000 said:


    Trump will underperform because: (a) as Obama proved in '08, caucuses are all about ground game, and he has none; and (b) his voters aren't natural Republican caucus goers. Rubio will outperform because there's a guy at a caucus, and he's the lone Kasich fan, and he'll go join Rubio rather than embarassingly stand on his own.

    That's plausible. Things could loom very different once people start voting.

    The caucus system sounds kind of fun tbh. You want plenty of alcohol mind you, which I guess you don't get.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited 2016 18
    Pulpstar said:

    If all the lays are to £1000 liability, and the backs to £1000 profit then for the book I get at a fair value of -£58 currently ^_~.

    You must be hoping for Cruz to come good in Iowa at the moment :D

    The good news is that my book on the final winner of the presidency is rather healthier, thanks to some early bets I got on at 4/1 on a female winner. I think I might be about to play safe and lay some of that off..
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    FPT
    CarlottaVance said:

    » show previous quotes
    A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!

    Well done sir!

    Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.

    PS

    $28........

    Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    MTimT said:

    Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.

    Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?

    Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Good rebuttal of economically illiterate @oxfamgb by @ASI https://t.co/eVJWeMPsIL
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752
    Probably won't happen, but hoping for a Kasich surge personally - he's my best result !

    John Kasich 320.00 £3.00 £957.00
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    Afternoon all,

    Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.

    They don't know who he is, presumably.
    Kasich backed down on Walker-like legislation in Ohio and then went for Obamacare. He is a pragmatist with a long track record of working both sides of the aisle. He is as liberal as it gets within the current GOP - more so than Christie and with a better actual track record on fiscal and governance issues than Christie.

    Why should he not be ahead with Dems?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2016 18
    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    CarlottaVance said:

    » show previous quotes
    A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!

    Well done sir!

    Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.

    PS

    $28........

    Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.

    Remind us how the SNP have reduced the cost of crude oil on the world markets.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Interesting that ICM is now putting Labour at 35% - the highest of any pollster since the election and only 1% below what Blair managed in 2005.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/689097711551942657

    Even ICM don't believe the Labour score :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2016 18
    Two polls from the Netherlands put Geert Wilders' party on 41 seats, their highest ever:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Dutch_general_election#Seats
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    Martin Boon estimates Labour are nearer 28/29%
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited 2016 18
    AndyJS said:

    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.

    In the last few Parliaments ICM tended to come up with the lowest Labour scores - and higher LibDem figures. Why no longer the Gold Standard?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Pulpstar said:

    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.

    I agree except I still think it's too early to write off Zac.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:

    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.

    In the last few Parliaments ICM tended to come up with the lowest Labour scores - and higher LibDem figures.
    I look forward to the real votes being counted at the May elections. I'd be surprised if they show Labour doing anything like as well as this poll implies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:

    If Labour are on 35% I'm a Dutchman.

    In the last few Parliaments ICM tended to come up with the lowest Labour scores - and higher LibDem figures.
    That's because their spiral of silence adjustment was based around trying to get a sample where 25% of voters said they voted LibDem in 2010. Now it's based around 8% in 2015, there won't be a (completely inaccurate as it turned out) shy LibDem bonus.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    justin124 said:

    Interesting that ICM is now putting Labour at 35% - the highest of any pollster since the election and only 1% below what Blair managed in 2005.

    Yet they make it very clear they don't think their figures are correct for Labour. Martin Boon thikns 28/95 is nearer the mark.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    felix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.

    I agree except I still think it's too early to write off Zac.
    We're going to have to do it sooner or later ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
    The point about unrealistic expectations of guaranteed future success from some Tories is quite reasonable. However, the Tories should barely have any leads if at all, given if many of their supporters would say they have been less than optimal since the GE, and at this stage last time in the electoral cycle Ed M was leading them I believe.

    Now, that Lab can even score 35%, even if it is an overestimate, should give some pause to Tories, since as you suggest if he was as terrible as they think he should be given his statements, they'd be even further behind. But that they are behind is pretty notable nevertheless.

    Even if the world is not preparing, guaranteed, for 1000 year Tory empire, it isn't a good poll for Labour, except in relative terms.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Wanderer said:

    MTimT said:

    Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.

    Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?

    Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
    That's why I prefaced it with 'not going to happen'.

    Kasich will not win the primaries because of that fact. But faced with either Hillary or Bernie in a general, he would win the centre. His inability to excite the GOP will hurt some, but:

    Case 1: Running against Hillary. Here equally the Dems will not have an excited base and Kasich is so 'moderate' in US terms that his being the GOP candidate will not fire up the Dem base as Cruz or Trump would.

    Case 2: Running against Bernie. Bernie will fire up the liberal wing of the Dems, but not the moderates, and he will turn off Independents, ensuring a bigger win for Kasich in that camp.

    Net net, if Kasich could get the nomination, I would see him winning the General handily.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    Afternoon all,

    Why is Kasich so un-hated by Dems? Even Christie, who I see as a bit of a cross-over candidate, is at -24.

    They don't know who he is, presumably.
    Kasich backed down on Walker-like legislation in Ohio and then went for Obamacare. He is a pragmatist with a long track record of working both sides of the aisle. He is as liberal as it gets within the current GOP - more so than Christie and with a better actual track record on fiscal and governance issues than Christie.

    Why should he not be ahead with Dems?
    I was just being flippant - he does sound more appealing from the Dem perspective than the others from what you say.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,368
    I know little about the POTUS race, but looking at those figures, Carson looks the best candidate. He has the highest score with both Republicans and Independents and his Democrat score is pretty good too.

    So is the poll rubbish?

  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Once again, raw sample remembers voting in a Labour government'

    Rubbish in, rubbish out. These polls are really a waste of time.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    watford30 said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    CarlottaVance said:

    » show previous quotes
    A stunning engagement with the argument that tiny Denmark is a better comparotor for Defence spending than Norway!

    Well done sir!

    Long may the Nats continue to display this level of intellectual brilliance.

    PS

    $28........

    Lovely , costs under 70 quid to fill up my gas guzzler now. Well done SNP , 30% drop in petrol costs, looking after the interests of the ordinary people. All that London lot have done is cut benefits and increase taxes.

    Remind us how the SNP have reduced the cost of crude oil on the world markets.
    The same way they were going to force the currency union I expect......
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    You do realise that the Tories didn't win the 2005 election, right?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    AndyJS said:

    Two polls from the Netherlands put Geert Wilders' party on 41 seats, their highest ever:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Dutch_general_election#Seats

    I see the Dutch Labour Party are facing utter destruction, it's good to see such a toxic brand being destroyed throughout Europe.

    Would any other party in the parliament work with Wilders?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Michael Crick
    The answer to my quiz question - Ford was last US President not to visit Britain during his presidency; Johnson the last elected president
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    And they lost the next one. So not much to be joyful about on their end even with a 35%.

    Must be some decent odds on Labmost seats for 2020 though.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MG Thinks the SNP has lowered the price of oil globally so that he can have petrol at under a quid a litre...awww how nice of them...
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    rcs1000 said:

    I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.

    He's entitled to since he wrote the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    felix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.

    I agree except I still think it's too early to write off Zac.
    Lol - wish these Khan nailed onners would back up their posts with money on betfair - he should be 1.1 no ?

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    MTimT said:

    Wanderer said:

    MTimT said:

    Not going to happen, but looking at those net favorability figures, Kasich should be the one the Dems should most fear.

    Looking at the ideological bell curves, what strikes me is that what has happened is a skewing of both GOP and Dem curves, but the tails to the opposing ideology are still fat and fairly unchanged... Curious. Socially conservative blacks and Jews for the Dems and libertarians for the GOP?

    Doesn't the low Republican positive score for Kasich indicate that he wouldn't motivate the base?
    That's why I prefaced it with 'not going to happen'.

    Kasich will not win the primaries because of that fact. But faced with either Hillary or Bernie in a general, he would win the centre. His inability to excite the GOP will hurt some, but:

    Case 1: Running against Hillary. Here equally the Dems will not have an excited base and Kasich is so 'moderate' in US terms that his being the GOP candidate will not fire up the Dem base as Cruz or Trump would.

    Case 2: Running against Bernie. Bernie will fire up the liberal wing of the Dems, but not the moderates, and he will turn off Independents, ensuring a bigger win for Kasich in that camp.

    Net net, if Kasich could get the nomination, I would see him winning the General handily.
    Interesting, thanks.

    If you have a second, I'd be interested to know how you think Sanders comes across to a US audience. To me he seems too much of a denounce-bad-stuff politician, not at all executive or Presidential.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    ICM, like lots of phone pollsters, fail to make contact with enough C2 voters.

    Bob The Builder is especially likely to have an extremely negative view of people like Miliband and Corbyn.

    They make too many easy contacts with 9-5 office workers and DE voters.

    Mori is more broadly informative because they provide homeowner, FT/PT worker and work sector subsamples.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    V interesting piece on Donald Trump's dismal leadership ratings among Independents & Democrats (ht @ClaudiaChwalisz) https://t.co/H1w6tqiu3m
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: 'Moderates' will push for secret ballot of PLP on motion re SRotheram/NEC.
    Corbyn allies will push for show of hands https://t.co/y50nEI80xv
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    TGOHF said:

    felix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.

    I agree except I still think it's too early to write off Zac.
    Lol - wish these Khan nailed onners would back up their posts with money on betfair - he should be 1.1 no ?

    I've done my bit :)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    WOW, huge lead for the Tories, is it down to Corbyn do you think. Going by the frothers on here I would have expected at least 80% Tory by now and Labour in single figures. Could it be some of the more excitable halfwits on here don't live in the real world.
    The point about unrealistic expectations of guaranteed future success from some Tories is quite reasonable. However, the Tories should barely have any leads if at all, given if many of their supporters would say they have been less than optimal since the GE, and at this stage last time in the electoral cycle Ed M was leading them I believe.

    Now, that Lab can even score 35%, even if it is an overestimate, should give some pause to Tories, since as you suggest if he was as terrible as they think he should be given his statements, they'd be even further behind. But that they are behind is pretty notable nevertheless.

    Even if the world is not preparing, guaranteed, for 1000 year Tory empire, it isn't a good poll for Labour, except in relative terms.
    I don't think electoral history backs you on this. It is not uncommon for a re-elected Government to be still ahead 8 months later. In the Parliaments elected in 1987 and 1959 it took two years for Labour to take the lead.Similarly ICM had Labour 15% ahead 8 months into the 2001 Parliament - with some pollsters still giving them leads in excess of 20%. Back in 1966 Labour retained a lead 8 months later. Compared with those four precedents today's figures are not at all disastrous for Labour and nowhere near the ballpark predicted by the more hysterical ultra Tory optimists last Summer/early Autumn.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    edited 2016 18
    felix said:

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/689097711551942657

    Even ICM don't believe the Labour score :)

    How can ICM still be in business when he's essentially saying "our polls are rubbish"? And that seems to go for most of the other polling companies, I really don't get why they are still being paid for this.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Labour on 38% in England......pardon me for a second............hahahahahahaha!

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752
    TGOHF said:

    felix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The upcoming Tooting by-election will be interesting.

    I agree except I still think it's too early to write off Zac.
    Lol - wish these Khan nailed onners would back up their posts with money on betfair - he should be 1.1 no ?

    Well my cash at 888 Sport for Khan last night @ 7-10 seems to have knocked them in to 11-17...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    rcs1000 said:

    I love the way Pat Buchanan tries to steal the mantle from Ronald Reagan. Yet, Reagan was vociferously pro-free trade, who badgered the houses of Congress to get authority to negotiate at the GATT Uruguay round. He was also a notorious softy in immigration who called for an amnesty on illegal immigrants in the United States.

    He's entitled to since he wrote the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines.
    He served as White House Communications Director for two years.

    Could you provide links to evidence that he wrote the "the majority of Reagan's best speeches and coined his most memorable lines"?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    And they lost the next one. So not much to be joyful about on their end even with a 35%.

    Must be some decent odds on Labmost seats for 2020 though.
    But the Labour lead at the following election was 12% to 20% plus narrower than the polls were showing in Feb 2002!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    So let me get this right. ICM says that for every 5 who voted for Miliband in May - all of whom they have kept - Corbyn has added a sixth.

    The only thing we can take from this poll is that political polling in this country is seriously broken.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    RT if you just realized you could make 6 flags out of the #Norwegian flag

    #Indonesia #Poland #Thailand #France https://t.co/9ZiS9Q1zsD
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    So let me get this right. ICM says that for every 5 who voted for Miliband in May - all of whom they have kept - Corbyn has added a sixth.

    The only thing we can take from this poll is that political polling in this country is seriously broken.

    Not quite. ICM is saying that Labour has moved up from 31% to 35%.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @NCPoliticsUK: ICM tables up - 2015 recalled vote still heavily skewed towards Lab, as @martinboon explains https://t.co/CPMDSA3vZb https://t.co/NlPvZyDbng
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    felix said:



    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    Martin Boon estimates Labour are nearer 28/29%
    Do we care? I think the entire country can work out how many beans make 5. Polls at this stage with the EU referendum in the offing are meaningless. I do not expect Labour under Corbyn to collapse into nothingness. But that is not the point. I do not expect Labour to win the 2020 election.
    The other point is that Labour have regressed, Labour have contracted, retreated, into a left wing redoubt. Cut off and surrounded. Where is the relief column? How long will the water last.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Scott_P said:

    @NCPoliticsUK: ICM tables up - 2015 recalled vote still heavily skewed towards Lab, as @martinboon explains https://t.co/CPMDSA3vZb https://t.co/NlPvZyDbng

    But surely ICM - and the other pollsters - carry out appropriate adjustments to deal with that!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Dair said:

    AndyJS said:

    Two polls from the Netherlands put Geert Wilders' party on 41 seats, their highest ever:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Dutch_general_election#Seats

    I see the Dutch Labour Party are facing utter destruction, it's good to see such a toxic brand being destroyed throughout Europe.

    Would any other party in the parliament work with Wilders?
    Dutch politics are going to be very interesting in 2015. The PVV is certainly going to top the polls, but whether they will get 40 odd seats (Peil) or 30-33 (De Stemming, Ipsos and TNS) will make a big difference.

    Support for the Euro is very strong in the Netherlands, with "The Euro has been good for the Netherlands" being something like 75-21 in favour, which must be one of the highest in the whole Eurozone.

    This makes them a difficult bedfellow for most of the other parties. There will probably be five parties with 15 to 20 seats apiece, which will mean that whatever comes out will be a very rainbow coalition.

    I could see PVV + CDA + D66 sort of working, although D66 and the PVV are like the LibDems and UKIP...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    Lol but the Tories were doing so much better in 1867! spinning right round right round right round....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    Anecdote alert. I belong to a Creative Writing Group (15 OAP's) and for last week's meeting we were asked to do, inter alia, a political speech designed to be given to an unsympathetic audience. Not many took that option but one who did gave a rip-roaring pro-Labour speech, at the end of which someone said "What was wrong with that?"
    Most of us of us seemed happy with the sightly left of Corbyn agenda proposed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,399

    RT if you just realized you could make 6 flags out of the #Norwegian flag

    #Indonesia #Poland #Thailand #France https://t.co/9ZiS9Q1zsD

    Also, Monaco. And at a push, Luxembourg, although the blue is a different shade (although this is no more of a stretch than claiming Finland).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,752
    ICM has found more Labour voters than Tories in it's raw numbers. The methodology is broken, completely broken.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    justin124 said:

    So let me get this right. ICM says that for every 5 who voted for Miliband in May - all of whom they have kept - Corbyn has added a sixth.

    The only thing we can take from this poll is that political polling in this country is seriously broken.

    Not quite. ICM is saying that Labour has moved up from 31% to 35%.
    Funny how you keep ignoring what Martin Boon says about his own company's poll.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    felix said:

    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    Lol but the Tories were doing so much better in 1867! spinning right round right round right round....
    Referring you to facts which you might find unpalatable is not spinning in any sense - but you appear determined to reveal the extent of your own ignorance.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @NCPoliticsUK: ICM tables up - 2015 recalled vote still heavily skewed towards Lab, as @martinboon explains https://t.co/CPMDSA3vZb https://t.co/NlPvZyDbng

    But surely ICM - and the other pollsters - carry out appropriate adjustments to deal with that!
    Yes but Boon is essentially saying that even with those adjustments they don't do enough to correct for the poor sample.

    So telephone polls are seriously flawed, and online panel polling is serious flawed. It seems that the only method that works okay is expensive and intensive doorstep or face-to-face polling, and nobody is willing to pay for that to be done on a regular basis for voting intention polls.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    justin124 said:

    Wanderer said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: RT @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 40% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    UKIP: 10% (-)
    LDEM: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ICM / 15 - 18 Jan)

    Even if it is an overstatement of the Lab share, as was suggested on the previous thread, presumably that would place them more likely in the low 30s, no worse than the GE.

    Now that is not good, I hasten to add. They should be neck and neck or more likely leading at this point, but polls like this, even if overstatement, will convince Corbyn supporters they are at the worse doing no worse than Ed M. And for some reason they are fine with that (either from not caring about losing, or assuming no worse than Ed M vs Osborne would be enough)
    It's a lot worse than Ed was doing at this stage of the Parliament.
    But a lot better than the Tories were doing at this stage of the 2001 Parliament.
    If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. Your point is?
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